@blur The extra mitigation provided from stealth ITC is definitely a thing despite it not being represented on the character sheet. I rarely use ITC from stealth on purpose, but the nature of when I use ITC (OhSh!tButton) causes me to use it from stealth on occasion. When this does happen the incoming damage I take is definitely less than just a normal deflect.
note: I actually use ITC about often as a power buff as well as an OhSh!tButton.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
@blur The extra mitigation provided from stealth ITC is definitely a thing despite it not being represented on the character sheet. I rarely use ITC from stealth on purpose, but the nature of when I use ITC (OhSh!tButton) causes me to use it from stealth on occasion. When this does happen the incoming damage I take is definitely less than just a normal deflect.
note: I actually use ITC about often as a power buff as well as an OhSh!tButton.
When I am MI, "on occassion" , in PvP i use stealthed ITC to save my squishy HAMSTER and the results are dependable enough.
@archangelzorak01 Yeah i rarely use stealthed ITC as well, except like you said the OhSh!tButton In single target rotation its always on as a buff and as life saver if needed. Was checking it out today and noticed the mitigation part is missing in the numbers but yeah the difference is definitely there.
Like you said @rustlord , i assumed stealthed ITC is more a PvP thing Also can you tell us from your PvP perspective what is considered as main problem of TR class? Question goes to all PvP TR's. Maybe we can offer a solid suggestion. What would take to fix it?
I know there are few TR's who make it work in PvP with focusing on Armor Penetration instead Recovery. I am working on a suggestion which would make SE physical damage. I know it would require a general change in PvP and might get rejected by many because it requires additional investment but if its considered as a step forward then why not. SE is quite a problematic ability and a lot was adjusted/nerfed around it. When i think its ready i will post it to discuss.
@blur For PvP I worry that the changes proposed for PvE will further drive things out of whack. Here's an example of a DC+GF buffed Shocking Execution from my old sig: [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 603156 (603872) Physical Damage to Antonio Asuman.
Normally, I was dealing in the range of 180-200K with self-buffs alone. At most, I can deal up to 350K by myself by setting up Fire Wheel, with Smoke Bomb + Shadow of Demise. Nothing a BiS OP with full blue and yellow HP bars survived. But we can stop at 200K and say that's not balanced.
One with the Shadows: Sab capstone is bugged, where it can stack multiple times and buffs daily powers even though it clearly says "encounter powers" in the tooltip. Leading to Shocking Executions (again) ranging in 150K or higher WITHOUT First Strike.
Given those, I've shortened up everything I've posted so far to these. If I can speak for every WK clinging to life, I've come up with these blanket changes:
Must-Have for MI (If SoD and overflow crit should be changed)
Shocking Execution:Should respect tenacity but made to ignore damage resist and all forms of shields and temp HP.
Do-Or-Die for WK
Dagger Threat:Your ranged at will and encounter powers deal 50% more damage and your melee powers deal 30% less. Razor Action:Your dagger throwing daily powers deal 50% of their damage as Bleed damage over 5 seconds.
Nice to have for PvP
Battlewise:Your Bleeds apply a stacking debuff (max 10/20/30 stacks) to targets reducing their healing from all sources by 1% per stack. In PvE targets affected by this debuff take 2/4/6% damage from you. ICD and stacks reset in X Y seconds.
@rustlord I was not familiar with Sabo capstone bug, will be mentioned ofc. SE is definitely a topic for further discussion. I hope we can get to an understanding on this one, would make many things much easier. I have no objection to Dagger Threat. I think everyone agreed on Battlewise, at least i didnt see any objections. I dont consider it as a issue which has to be dealt with but as a nice-to-have option, because it tackles the healing which is global problem. Razor action. Dailies which throw daggers are WoB and Wk's HK(?). This suggestion seems too weak. I doubt it would help with WoB in PvP and PvE, i might be wrong, so its there for HK? Sadly my knowledge of HK is poor so cant say anything for sure about it. I will assume tho that damage RA would deal as bleed over 5 secs is lower than 10% of all damage you would do for 10 seconds after activating Daily. Im quite sure that would be the case in PvE, not sure if it is the same in PvP.
There's so many things in here that don't resonate with me at all, it is hard to summarize as the discussion is very far away from how I play WK. First off, my approach:
First off - my passive abilities are Dagger Threat and Tactics. My general approach to battle is:
Go into stealth, attack with an encounter.
For mobs:
Stealth --> Smoke Bomb (adds slow effect), or Stealth --> Blitz (adds slow effect, not as long). Blitz adds more initial damage, Smoke Bomb provides more group CC.
I then use Smoke Bomb or Blitz as a follow-up, depending on what I've done. After that, I have options.
Impact Strike to pick off enemies one-by-one. Stealth --> Impact Strike adds an additional strike and automatically gives me an encounter from stealth regardless of the cooldown countdown.
I'll use Whirlwind of Blades or Hateful Knives, depending on how mobs are stacking up or if there's a specifically powerful enemy.
Occasionally, I'll start with Disheartening Strike on enemies that will take a while to bring down. I'll use CoS and DS as needed, esp. when encounters are all on cooldown. I try to keep recovery high enough that I rely mostly on encounters (and I use Dread)
For bosses:
Stealth --> Lashing Blade, or Stealth --> Wicked Reminder
After that I rely on keeping thee Wicked Reminder debuff at 3 stacks, continuing to pile on damage with Dishearting Strike (refreshing around the time it ends its bleed damage), Impact Strike, CoS and occasionally Vengeance's Pursuit if I need to further debuff the damage dealt from strong bosses.
I often throw in Courage Breaker into this mix.
Now, about the adjustments:
I've read a lot of suggestions, and the main thing I'd like to suggest is that our comparative damage output to other classes, esp. as a comparison HR, is much lower. We need more damage output, which can happen either through additional buffs with powers, improvements to the feat lines, improvements to how Shadow of Demise works, or whatever.
Since the biggest damage boost from using stealth is more negated due to comparable classes being able radically boost crit scores above what was possible at the level 60 cap, we do need to consider how stealth plays a role in damage.
Considering how I like to play with stealth, and how similar stealth-oriented creatures work (such as Shadow Demon). Having a boost to damage only while in stealth neglects the damage I'm dealing after I break out of stealth for my big damage shots. I like feats that increase damage after leaving stealth or while stealth is recharging.
From a build standpoint - and why I'm waiting to figure out what to do with loadouts, there's a few things that stand out. Increasing damage as a buff after enemies die is cool when there are lots of mobs, but it is worthless when you're battling Orcus, for instance. I've almost completely gone away from using any of those feats because they are only useful occasionally.
It would be nice to have more consistent buffs that we can rely on in a variety of combat situations. I use the Last Moments and Deathknell feats because I think they generally provide me with a more consistent dps boost - but that only kicks in when enemies are under a certain % of health.
If feats were reworked so that more feats had more up-time on the buffs, then we'd be more competitive. If encounter powers and class features were better conceived to give better buffs and/or bleed or CC effects - then we'd be more competitive.
My biggest hope would be that WK would do more damage on ranged attacks, it doesn't have to extend out to a ridiculous distance on the buff - and, in fact, it doesn't matter to me if it scales up the closer you are to an opponent and less the farther you way you are. I just want ranged attacks to have a boost, however they want to rework it.
That's the crux of what I'd like to see happen. I don't want to get too specific on how to get there, personally, but I also don't want to remake WK into something where I have to radically readjust my play style to make the new changes to feats and encounters work for me.
@sherifftruman Well, no offense but you cant play a WK and expect to be competitive with other classes in PvE. Master Infiltrators are quite ahead of WK and not even them are able to compete effectively. WK lacks 20% damage increase for 5 secs after activating daily from II passive, 5% damage increase for 20 seconds after daily activation from IA passive offhand feature, 10% power bonus from Press the Advantage. I understand playing it how you like it but that is not the most effective way to play it. Sadly there is only 1 way which performs the best in PvE, variety is not a thing at the moment and you got to stick with it if u want to be anywhere close to others. I see you do both ranged and melee so we can remove the negative thing from Dagger Threat suggestion. Except that i dont see how the suggestions so far would harm you if you want to play it your way.
@sherifftruman Well, no offense but you cant play a WK and expect to be competitive with other classes in PvE. Master Infiltrators are quite ahead of WK and not even them are able to compete effectively. WK lacks 20% damage increase for 5 secs after activating daily from II passive, 5% damage increase for 20 seconds after daily activation from IA passive offhand feature, 10% power bonus from Press the Advantage. I understand playing it how you like it but that is not the most effective way to play it. Sadly there is only 1 way which performs the best in PvE, variety is not a thing at the moment and you got to stick with it if u want to be anywhere close to others. I see you do both ranged and melee so we can remove the negative thing from Dagger Threat suggestion. Except that i dont see how the suggestions so far would harm you if you want to play it your way.
Well, as you've read my comments, you'll see that I want to make WK more competitive. This is a thread about suggestions, is it not?
One thing I was concerned about in the comments is that people see WK as a distance ranged class, but I don't think anyone plays WK that way. Mostly I see WK TRs get in close and then back away. I don't believe I am entirely ineffective, and those who have played with me would probably agree, but I am dedicated to providing advise to make WK more viable and on par with other classes such as HR. The concern is that many changes that could be made to WK ignore how most WK use the class and the changes in feats/encounters could be counter to the play style used by long time WK players.
@sherifftruman There is a misunderstanding We all want to improve WK to be competitive just as MI. That's why VP, RA and AdvPos suggestions were made, to provide the things which are missing compared to MI. You first said: "I just want ranged attacks to have a boost, however they want to rework it." and then you said "One thing I was concerned about in the comments is that people see WK as a distance ranged class, but I don't think anyone plays WK that way." It is contradictory.
If you want boost for ranged attacks Dagger Threat is great suggestion, without reducing melee damage. TR is a melee class and has very few ranged attacks. Expecting to be good from range as good as you are in melee is not something we can expect. King of ranged physical damage is HR and expecting to be as good as HR in ranged combat is not something which will happen. There is a suggestion to Blitz which additionally to current effect adds 5% damage buff. It could be seen as an equal buff to Press the Advantage from ITC with the trade that it does damage (allows SoD proc for Exe) but you lose the survivability. I mentioned this because i saw you are using this ability. Most damage TR does comes from at-wills, faster setting up the bleeds from DF for MI is crucial as mentioned. Dagger Threat buffing DhS for WK seems fair enough, if WK doesnt want to use DF. All suggestions should work and improve WK, i dont see which are not applying to WK.
TR is a melee class and has very few ranged attacks.
There are 4 ranged throwing encounter powers and 2 ranged throwing at-wills for WK. That's enough to give special thought to regarding Dagger Threat and what the purpose is of WK. The features of WK include Hateful Knives - a very long-ranged attack, that borders on throwing damage based on the second strike (at the least), Vengeance's Pursuit, DhS, and Razor Action (basically a secondary ranged attack on dailies).
My point when I said "at distance" I mean long distance. Of all those powers, 3 have a range of 60 feet - CoS, Disheartening Strike and Vengence's Pursuit, the rest are at 40 feet (Hateful Knives is 80 feet, but the thrown daggers are at close range). Dagger Threat works within 20 feet, which seems unnecessarily limiting. I'm all for HR doing more damage from 40 feet plus than I could ever do, but why not at least equal within 30-40 feet?
There is a suggestion to Blitz which additionally to current effect adds 5% damage buff. It could be seen as an equal buff to Press the Advantage from ITC with the trade that it does damage (allows SoD proc for Exe) but you lose the survivability. I mentioned this because i saw you are using this ability. Most damage TR does comes from at-wills, faster setting up the bleeds from DF for MI is crucial as mentioned. Dagger Threat buffing DhS for WK seems fair enough, if WK doesnt want to use DF. All suggestions should work and improve WK, i dont see which are not applying to WK.
I think you've made a good point about DF vs. DhS. They both work off of bleed damage, but it is very different. DF requires not only to be close in melee, but for a prolonged time. DhS has a range of 60 feet, so it often works best as one of the first attacks against enemies with significant HP. Theoretically, you could run DF and DhS together as a WK, but I've found from a play style approach that it doesn't work too well.
A bleed buff for TR could be nice for both melee and ranged approaches. Somehow, my build is not built around at-will damage, which may make this discussion more of a head scratcher for both of us.
@sherifftruman You have a point, there are more ranged abilities than i thought. Razor Threat suggestion seems perfect then and its suggestion removed the 20ft requirement. It would have to be tested if 50% is too much or not considering all other buffs which were suggested.
I'm a hardliner when it comes to balance, but at the same time I want the devs to follow through with the intended design of WK which is a mid-ranged damage dealer. But as it stands WK is lacking in all aspects of that, therefore I want to add as much juice to ranged powers as possible, even if we have to take away from some things like melee damage. I imagine that by staying relative to the current powers, like increased ranged damage for Dagger Threat, makes it more realistic in terms of dev time.
Remember that there are other suggestions that apply to both MI and WK, like overflow crit stat and possible SoD changes. So for right now, its about bridging the gap between MI and WK. Then it's up to those global buffs to bring this all in line with other classes.
For Razor Action 50% more damage to WW and HK really might not cut it. We could work with the piercing concept, but then again that's only a PvP mechanic. I'm open to re-evaluating this.
@blur Do you have any aproximation of how long it will be till the priorities thread gets launched? I want to know how much time I have to respond. I will answer your question to PVP TRs soon but not tonight.
I will also see if I can pull any more strings to get more good pvp TRs responding.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
@trgluestickz I dont know it precisely but i think you have time. @sirjimbofrancis is busy atm and might take few days until its posted.
TY
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @rustlord said: > @blur For PvP I worry that the changes proposed for PvE will further drive things out of whack. Here's an example of a DC+GF buffed Shocking Execution from my old sig: [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 603156 (603872) Physical Damage to Antonio Asuman. > > Normally, I was dealing in the range of 180-200K with self-buffs alone. At most, I can deal up to 350K by myself by setting up Fire Wheel, with Smoke Bomb + Shadow of Demise. Nothing a BiS OP with full blue and yellow HP bars survived. But we can stop at 200K and say that's not balanced. > > One with the Shadows: Sab capstone is bugged, where it can stack multiple times and buffs daily powers even though it clearly says "encounter powers" in the tooltip. Leading to Shocking Executions (again) ranging in 150K or higher WITHOUT First Strike. > > Given those, I've shortened up everything I've posted so far to these. If I can speak for every WK clinging to life, I've come up with these blanket changes: > > Must-Have for MI (If SoD and overflow crit should be changed) > > Shocking Execution: Should respect tenacity but made to ignore damage resist and all forms of shields and temp HP. > > Do-Or-Die for WK > > Dagger Threat: Your ranged at will and encounter powers deal 50% more damage and your melee powers deal 30% less. > Razor Action: Your dagger throwing daily powers deal 50% of their damage as Bleed damage over 5 seconds. > > Nice to have for PvP > > Battlewise: Your Bleeds apply a stacking debuff (max 10/20/30 stacks) to targets reducing their healing from all sources by 1% per stack. In PvE targets affected by this debuff take 2/4/6% damage from you. ICD and stacks reset in X Y seconds.
Shocking execution does not his that huge damage with all 3 paragons of tr... maybe change the buffs in executioner instead of taking away our options for other paragons
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I'm going to caveat this with saying that I do not PvP and I'm sure someone has mentioned something similar to what I'm going to suggest--likely so, this'll most likely get lost in the fray but, lets see what happens.
There are some abilities that I find could simply be tweaked and will likely prove effective enough. I hope at least.
In no particular order, I'd like to offer suggestions on a few abilities of ours.
Gloaming Cut: This hits nice and hard. Yes, the animation is a bit rough but, I think if a sudden, second strike right after the first (however Cryptic would like to animate this), would make this far more viable and deadly. For instance, if the second hit were to immediately come after the first and was a guaranteed crit w/ a severity bonus, I believe it could prove itself far more useful. To compound this, the range and animation speed could be adjusted to give us more variety instead of just spamming DF. If used while in stealth, it should have an even faster animation and increased range while enjoying no diminishing returns on other TR feats that increase crit severity while in stealth. Weapon synergy: Gloaming Cut now grants 10% more stealth recharge per strike.
Cloud of Steel: I do not have a problem with this at-will but, its damage could surely be adjusted to be a bit more viable. If used while in stealth, it should apply Rank 1 Bleed. Weapon synergy: Cloud of Steel now slows the target by 10%
Sly Flourish: A faster animation is really all that is needed for this at-will. If used in while in stealth, it should apply a defense reduction similar to WR but, not as powerful. I think it is fine otherwise. Another alternative would be to speed this at-will up and make it a cone at-will. We don't have an effective multi-target at-will like many other classes. This could alleviate that. Weapon synergy: Sly Flourish now grants Rank 2 bleed.
Duelists Flurry: This is currently our bread and butter and for the most part, I find that a lot of focus is placed on this with the assumption that it should remain so. A common complaint I hear and personally experience when attempting to use this at-will is an incomplete cycle. Either the mob moves or dies in the middle of the at-will. If the mob moves, I believe our tether should be even more predictable and far reaching. If the mob dies in the middle of our DF, we retain the DF bleed stack from that mob and apply it to the next mob we get a full rotation on. Let this be a buff that dissolves after say, 15 seconds if we do not successfully land a DF rotation on another mob. This ability should passively grant Rank 3 bleed. If used while in stealth, the duration of our bleed is cut in half but does full damage.
Disheartening Strike: That animation guys, seriously? Lets do something about making that more fluid and useful. I think disheartening strike is a nice ability but, I do have a suggestion that may make it more viable. Speed that animation up and make it apply a Rank 3 Bleed. If used while in stealth, it also poisons mobs surrounding the target for 20% of the damage of disheartening strike. Weapon synergy: Disheartening Strike now demoralizes your enemy, slowing them by 20%. This effect is halved on players.
Bleed mechanic: If I understand this correctly, when we apply a bleed on a mob, that mob bleeds for x amount of time. If we reapply the bleed, all it does it refresh it. Instead, I believe the bleeds should be on separate timers for a max of 3 different bleeds. With this mechanic, no rotation changes are needed to enact this. Let these bleeds be clear by being ranked. Rank 1, 2 and 3; all bleed damage is relative to weapon damage, akin to weapon enchantments.
I would like to offer up a suggestion on new passive class features to encourage more "rogue-like" gameplay.
Flank: Using the same mechanic that grants us Gutterborn's Touch (which, in all honestly can be replaced with this), you instead deal increased damage (2/4/6/8/10%) and receive power (2/4/6/8/10%) and your recharge speed increases by (5/10/15/20/25%) while flanking your opponent. This buff lasts 2/4/6/8/10 seconds. Weapon synergy: Flank now grants rank 1 bleed on all encounter powers. To be honest, I'm not sure if this should be on whisperknife or MI or if it should be available on both.
Poisoned Blades: Having the new aboleth weapons gave me some perspective on the potential of this passive. One of four effects can be applied to mobs, every 10 seconds, on a 30 second cooldown. Creeping Death: Your targets take 20% of your power in damage every second for 10 seconds. Confusion: Targets become dazed and confused for 5 seconds. Control immune mobs take 30% damage resist reduction for 6 seconds. Enfeeblement: Reduce the recharge speed of your targets by 25%. Additionally, your attacks now add piercing damage equal to 50% weapon damage. Alacrity: Become like the wind! Your run speed, recharge speed and deflection chance is increased by 25%.
Lashing Blade: Reduce the recharge time. Bring it in line with the GWF IBS recharge speed and damage. No need for it to be a small cone, either, like with IBS. While in stealth, Lashing Blade has a +50% crit severity and grants Rank 3 Bleed.
Smoke Bomb: Make it work with enchantments. I have no idea how game breaking that would be at this point but, yeah. Go from there and we can work out the details.
Shadow of Demise: I believe that SoD has the potential to be adjusted without making it absurd. SoD should be able to hit all mobs tagged with a stealthed encounter, period. With this, however, I believe the SoD tick should be every two seconds. So, every two seconds, the mob is hit with 50% piercing damage, of all the damage given by the TR. Now, with that being said, I can imagine that people will complain about this but, I suggest making it so that the hits, since there will be 3 of them total, (2 seconds, 4 seconds and at 6 seconds) are calculated in the final SoD hit at the 6 second mark--if there is one. This essentially rewards the TR with a sizable hit if the mobs were to live long enough. We all know how fast trash gets run over in dungeons these days so, I don't think anyone will complain, honestly. If you really think about it, if you have two 50k SoD ticks, the third SoD tick will only be increased by another 50k. Unless my math is way off; it's late, after all. And lets fix the stealth interruption with this, shall we?
One with the Shadows: Currently, it is this: "Every 15 seconds, you gain the One with the Shadows effect. One with the Shadows: The next time you deal damage with an Encounter power, your Stealth meter is refilled. For 10 seconds after, your Encounter powers deal 20% more damage."
I think it should be more along the lines of: At-wills no longer drain stealth and encounter powers will not expend stealth. The next time you deal damage with an Encounter power, your Stealth meter is refilled. For 10 seconds after, your damage is increased by 20%.
I think that would make the Sabo tree much more desirable.
Skullcracker: Currently, it is this: Every 15 seconds, you gain the Skullcracker effect. Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze. The daze from this feat is half as effective on players.
I think it should be more along the lines of: Keep all the mechanics above but add; when Skullcracker is applied to a control immune mob, you deal an additional 30% damage.
Yup, that's all I've got for now. Does it all line up? Maybe not but, I think it would encourage less typical gameplay that we see currently from TRs.
Edit: I tried posting this but, it kept falling off.
By the way, yeah if I was still rolling with SE, with my stats now I should be hitting 400K on a extremely opportunistic firewheel+SE+SoD, and 200K on a regular First Strike. Given the odds it takes to actually pull off the 400K, a sabo (with the same stats) would have dished out 2-3x 150K. About the same.
There is currently no known exploits for Scoundrels, so if you meant to say exclude that path I agree with you. There are just so few sabos who know and admit to the capstone bug, that it wasn't widely understood, some do it out of instinct never actually knowing the interactions in play. Others would just do 50-80K shockings without it.
Shadow of Demise: This damage is not piercing as it's based off of post-mitigation damage. If it was TRUE piercing it would be like HR Piercing Blade that is taken from pre-mitigation numbers; i.e. Your Dazing Strike deals 80,000 (100,000) Physical damage. The number inside the parenthesis is pre-mit, and the number outside post-mit. Maybe it matters less to PvE after you cap your arpen, but tagging that power with the word piercing is wildly presumptuous. Tooltip change please. BOOM!
lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Yeah, I know that my suggestion was too hard, but hey here is a place to brainstorm ideas to make us competitive again.
Anyway, what I said about "separating" WK and MI was just to create some flavor and really make them what they should be: a mid-range fighter and a close combat fighter, and both should be good, if not demons, on what they was designed for.
I really like the idea of creating some feats or rework some powers to inflict poison on our targets. Rogue-like classes all around other mmos have a lot of poisons and we don't... our only source of poison damage it's smoke bomb [please, if I'm wrong just forgive].
Well, it's nice to see so much ideas coming out. I really hope to see that "priorities thread" soon.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
> @blur For PvP I worry that the changes proposed for PvE will further drive things out of whack. Here's an example of a DC+GF buffed Shocking Execution from my old sig: [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 603156 (603872) Physical Damage to Antonio Asuman.
>
> Normally, I was dealing in the range of 180-200K with self-buffs alone. At most, I can deal up to 350K by myself by setting up Fire Wheel, with Smoke Bomb + Shadow of Demise. Nothing a BiS OP with full blue and yellow HP bars survived. But we can stop at 200K and say that's not balanced.
>
> One with the Shadows: Sab capstone is bugged, where it can stack multiple times and buffs daily powers even though it clearly says "encounter powers" in the tooltip. Leading to Shocking Executions (again) ranging in 150K or higher WITHOUT First Strike.
>
> Given those, I've shortened up everything I've posted so far to these. If I can speak for every WK clinging to life, I've come up with these blanket changes:
>
> Must-Have for MI (If SoD and overflow crit should be changed)
>
> Shocking Execution: Should respect tenacity but made to ignore damage resist and all forms of shields and temp HP.
>
> Do-Or-Die for WK
>
> Dagger Threat: Your ranged at will and encounter powers deal 50% more damage and your melee powers deal 30% less.
> Razor Action: Your dagger throwing daily powers deal 50% of their damage as Bleed damage over 5 seconds.
>
> Nice to have for PvP
>
> Battlewise: Your Bleeds apply a stacking debuff (max 10/20/30 stacks) to targets reducing their healing from all sources by 1% per stack. In PvE targets affected by this debuff take 2/4/6% damage from you. ICD and stacks reset in X Y seconds.
Shocking execution does not his that huge damage with all 3 paragons of tr... maybe change the buffs in executioner instead of taking away our options for other paragons
Its true that other trees can't dish out as much damage as executioner can with an SE. But this doesn't mean that other trees can't also one shot most players. For a considerable amount of time after mod 6's launch, most of the pvp builds were sabotuers and many of those were one shot kill builds. As you know, sabotuers are still widespread in pvp but executioner has also made a comeback. They can't hit as hard as an executioner but they can still one shot most players if built for it (most are). While this may come as a suprize to many people, scoundrel SEs are comparable to sabotuer SEs when they are built in a similar manner so this issue can also apply to them.
Making it so the offending buffs in executioner can't apply to SE would help but its not the entire puzzle.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I find Talisman of Shadows to be very useful when running dailies. A solo rogue doesn't need damage buff passives to compete with anyone and no matter how short the daze is, it is still an instant interrupt.
The solo application for talisman you brought up is one use for it that never crossed my mind, ty for pointing this out. Its nice to know its a slightly more useful than I thought though its still very lacking. The daze needs a trigger rewrite to make its interrupt useful in more places. This passive should get an additional effect of some kind tacked onto it as well. Also, the daze durration should no longer be halved in pvp. The daze is 1 second in pve so currently, its only .5 seconds for pvp, its even shorter once you factor in control resistance, deflection, ect.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Shocking Execution suggestion as Physical damage. I am guessing it would cause the change in general for PvP TRs. Stacking ArPen instead Recovery. I saw both Lashing Blade and SE have around 30k base physical damage and i asked around how much can Lashing hit in PvP with ArPen so i worked with that number in mind.
My suggestion for SE is to have around 50k base physical damage. The ability animation stays the same as it is now, maybe a bit faster. The ability deals 50% lower damage to targets above 50% HP (almost removes the buff it can get from First Strike) and it deals 50% higher damage to targets under 50% HP. For 5 seconds after activation increases your run speed by 10% and reduces AP gain by 50% for 10 secs.
I dont know if this suggestion is fine, too weak or too strong. Devs would have to test it with all benefits vs full HP targets (First Strike+Shadowborn+Stealth rework(+SoD without FS))...
Shocking Execution suggestion as Physical damage. I am guessing it would cause the change in general for PvP TRs. Stacking ArPen instead Recovery. I saw both Lashing Blade and SE have around 30k base physical damage and i asked around how much can Lashing hit in PvP with ArPen so i worked with that number in mind.
My suggestion for SE is to have around 50k base physical damage. The ability animation stays the same as it is now, maybe a bit faster. The ability deals 50% lower damage to targets above 50% HP (almost removes the buff it can get from First Strike) and it deals 50% higher damage to targets under 50% HP. For 5 seconds after activation increases your run speed by 10%.
I dont know if this suggestion is fine, too weak or too strong. Devs would have to test it with all benefits vs full HP targets (First Strike+Shadowborn+Stealth rework(+SoD without FS))...
What are your opinions to this?
I suspect your numbers for your proposed SE fix will end up too weak but I could be wrong. Your calculations worked with the assumption that in pvp, armor pen makes our non-SE attacks stronger than current power stacking. Most likely, armor pen will not become viable again for pvp TRs just from SE's piercing damage being removed. Here is why:
Shocking execution is not the reason armor pen is no longer used in pvp TR builds. For a considerable amount of time after mod 6's launch, TRs were stacking armor pen as high as they could with some people reaching numbers as high as 130% in pvp, this was true of one shot SE builds as well. Armor pen was considered a nessasary stat for your other attacks but wasn't really intended to help with SE. I remember when I was struggling to get enough armor pen, 80% was the bare minimum amount recommended for pvp at the time and even once I hit 90% I was still trying to find ways to get more. I am still scratching my head to this day on what exactly happened to armor pen that made it so useless. Other pvp TRs started to notice something wasn't right a few mods ago and were converting in mass to power. I was late in changing and reluctant to give my 90% armor pen up. I thought I was going to lose damage from my other attacks and that changing to power would buff SE at the expense of my other attacks. I was not a one shot kill build but other good pvp TRs that I asked were saying I should switch regardless of what kind of build I run; they claimed that I would not lose any damage for doing so. I eventually tried stripping all of my armor pen off and stacked power. To my suprize, I was doing a little bit more damage with all my attacks than when I had armor pen. The benifits of replacing armor pen with more power became obvious, it makes SE even stronger and you lose nothing by taking off the armor pen.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I'm at a loss with that as well. I stopped playing around the start of module 7 and came back late module 9. When was Axebeak first introduced? I was really gunning for that arpen build myself. I came back to a different meta where the general consensus was arpen is not working.
It seems to me from swapping guild boons, 8k arpen to power and then back, that it's working although power simply scales better to damage in most cases. I'll venture a guess that TRs just grew out of it, other classes changes, new gears come out and there is a higher HP pool now, so power for that one shot was just the way to go. Nothing specific to arpen there, TR just got left behind by progress as always.
I'm at a loss with that as well. I stopped playing around the start of module 7 and came back late module 9. When was Axebeak first introduced? I was really gunning for that arpen build myself. I came back to a different meta where the general consensus was arpen is not working.
It seems to me from swapping guild boons, 8k arpen to power and then back, that it's working although power simply scales better to damage in most cases. I'll venture a guess that TRs just grew out of it, other classes changes, new gears come out and there is a higher HP pool now, so power for that one shot was just the way to go. Nothing specific to arpen there, TR just got left behind by progress as always.
The Axe Beak came out with the howling hatred lockbox on october 1st 2015. This was durring mid module 7.
Lol I can remember when this mount was one of the few mounts people actually used in pvp. On premade teams, you would see entire partys that rode axe beaks. You couldn't change mount skins back then and only the very newest mounts had stat bonuses so pvp got pretty monotonous with the release of elemental evil mounts. Flail snail was good for TRs back then as well but it was mostly TRs with big guild boons that could afford to slot them instead of an axe beak.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Suppose SE became physical damage, I'm struck in the middle of that argument. Piercing is such a core aspect of being a TR. Is it overperforming, yes. How, because maybe it scales infinitely good with things like First Strike, power and shadowborn. I was just running some base damage numbers with a good CW friend the other day, found out her base damage for ice knife and encounters are even double the base damage of shocking execution. That's understandable given we have piercing, but encounters like Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike are consistent with our horrible base damage, which is weird.
what they should be: a mid-range fighter and a close combat fighter, and both should be good, if not demons, on what they was designed for.
One thing i can't put my finger one for a long time: why do ppl always tell that WK is a mid-range fighter? I mean - quite common loadout (pve), imo - Dazing + Smoke + WR/BF/LB. WoB + LA/CB. DF+CoS/DhS. The difference in CoS/DhS - ? Both 60' max, and MI with DF+CoS doesn't count as "mid-ranged". So, why should i with DF+DhS?
Imo, idea was like - MI *sticks* to target within 0-20' range and nothing can get him from where. ItC kinda *key* to that. WK have to dodge, that's why improved version of CoS is given. DhS (on paper, ok) covers dps difference a bit, grants more damage (feated) and reduces damage from target. So - more or less - same output. But - through VP and HK, WK is able to get close to his target at almost any time, for melee-combo or finishing move.
There's o'course opportunity to combine CoS and DhS and pretend to be *ranged*... ok, we all know amount of DSP you'd lose chosing that.
(btw - i like to play sometimes with DS+SB+impact. +WoB + DhS + DF + Dagger threat. Quite fun for soloing, i shall say, but there's always annoying thing about impact. 3 charges, amount of damage for first one is on tooltip. 2nd deals 75% of that and 3rd is 50%. Yes, it's not at-will, but 150-125-100% would be better, i guess).
One more tip, always left behind. Maybe it's time to add "additional damage as target's HP diminishes / damage increased based on the percentage target's missimg hit points" part to LB, for example, and HK?
p.s. Rustlord. HK is a charge. 82' charge, you run as hell to your target, at 0-2' put two daggers in it, jump up, and put another two, landing. Distance between you and target when you actually hit is melee. (especially if we remember that GWF and GF's at-will distance is 12-15' and those are clearly melee ones.)
@ug2bk quick correction, you fly not run, its my favorite daily and hypothetically if we were to stoop to semantics .. xD if I'm far enough in the air to throw knives, knife throwing is a ranged attack. like when i fire a gun in point blank, i'd say point blank. or if i'd use a gun for melee, i think its like bashing someones face in with the grip handle. this is assuming of course we're nitpicking because we're defining which powers get to have a ranged buff?
One thing i can't put my finger one for a long time: why do ppl always tell that WK is a mid-range fighter?
is because that's the role it was designed for, advertised as, and failed to.. during the course of its lifetime. It's odd that we sticklers for design are the ones who are weird now.. cus maybe we're so old and nobody remembers. I'll drink to that! But yeah, you and everybody else made it work your way by playing it a melee-ranged and that really works quite well in PvE.
WK needs to become the mid-ranged fighter it was originally thought up to be, but it doesn't have to take away from playing melee if you want to. That's why I preferred the range buff to be exclusive only to underappreciated passives that you can either slot or unslot per your own taste.
PS: I come up with ideas limited to my niche where I'm confident I can be right. I'm not that versed with yours so the only person who could come up with your kind of buffs is you.
I wasn't around for mod 5, except for a brief time after it released on preview. Did Impact Shot get buffed? I remember it as being mediocre in PVE until mod 3 when the devs nerfed it. I quit using it them.
Apart from that, HK is cool looking but damage dailies aren't worth slotting in PVP. Vengeance Pursuit has always been clunky trash except for PVP cheese. I tried using it again recently against Gyrion and the results were either landing in an Entangling AoE or seeing him just bounce away again. It still bugs out trying to target friendlies as well. The CC breaker aspect eas added due to forum concerns about the loss of ITC, but it's honesty too clunky for even that.
Sadly apart from Disheartening, I play my WK much the same as my MI. Daze, BladeFl, Smoke. At wills are DF and Dish. Dailies are WiB and LA. Passives Dagger Threat and Advantageous.
Disheartening and stubbornness are really the only thing that keeps her as a Whisperknife. I can say that if Dagger Threat nerfed melee damage, I would stop using it. The other ranged powers would need massive buffs to make up for the loss of 90% of the TR toolkit.
ETA Passives should be DT, Talisman
Post edited by pitshade on
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Comments
note: I actually use ITC about often as a power buff as well as an OhSh!tButton.
Like you said @rustlord , i assumed stealthed ITC is more a PvP thing
I know there are few TR's who make it work in PvP with focusing on Armor Penetration instead Recovery. I am working on a suggestion which would make SE physical damage. I know it would require a general change in PvP and might get rejected by many because it requires additional investment but if its considered as a step forward then why not. SE is quite a problematic ability and a lot was adjusted/nerfed around it. When i think its ready i will post it to discuss.
Normally, I was dealing in the range of 180-200K with self-buffs alone. At most, I can deal up to 350K by myself by setting up Fire Wheel, with Smoke Bomb + Shadow of Demise. Nothing a BiS OP with full blue and yellow HP bars survived. But we can stop at 200K and say that's not balanced.
One with the Shadows: Sab capstone is bugged, where it can stack multiple times and buffs daily powers even though it clearly says "encounter powers" in the tooltip. Leading to Shocking Executions (again) ranging in 150K or higher WITHOUT First Strike.
Given those, I've shortened up everything I've posted so far to these. If I can speak for every WK clinging to life, I've come up with these blanket changes:
Must-Have for MI (If SoD and overflow crit should be changed)
Shocking Execution: Should respect tenacity but made to ignore damage resist and all forms of shields and temp HP.
Do-Or-Die for WK
Dagger Threat: Your ranged at will and encounter powers deal 50% more damage and your melee powers deal 30% less.
Razor Action: Your dagger throwing daily powers deal 50% of their damage as Bleed damage over 5 seconds.
Nice to have for PvP
Battlewise: Your Bleeds apply a stacking debuff (max 10/20/30 stacks) to targets reducing their healing from all sources by 1% per stack. In PvE targets affected by this debuff take 2/4/6% damage from you. ICD and stacks reset in X Y seconds.
SE is definitely a topic for further discussion. I hope we can get to an understanding on this one, would make many things much easier.
I have no objection to Dagger Threat.
I think everyone agreed on Battlewise, at least i didnt see any objections. I dont consider it as a issue which has to be dealt with but as a nice-to-have option, because it tackles the healing which is global problem.
Razor action. Dailies which throw daggers are WoB and Wk's HK(?). This suggestion seems too weak. I doubt it would help with WoB in PvP and PvE, i might be wrong, so its there for HK? Sadly my knowledge of HK is poor so cant say anything for sure about it. I will assume tho that damage RA would deal as bleed over 5 secs is lower than 10% of all damage you would do for 10 seconds after activating Daily. Im quite sure that would be the case in PvE, not sure if it is the same in PvP.
First off - my passive abilities are Dagger Threat and Tactics. My general approach to battle is:
Go into stealth, attack with an encounter.
For mobs:
Stealth --> Smoke Bomb (adds slow effect), or Stealth --> Blitz (adds slow effect, not as long). Blitz adds more initial damage, Smoke Bomb provides more group CC.
I then use Smoke Bomb or Blitz as a follow-up, depending on what I've done. After that, I have options.
Impact Strike to pick off enemies one-by-one. Stealth --> Impact Strike adds an additional strike and automatically gives me an encounter from stealth regardless of the cooldown countdown.
I'll use Whirlwind of Blades or Hateful Knives, depending on how mobs are stacking up or if there's a specifically powerful enemy.
Occasionally, I'll start with Disheartening Strike on enemies that will take a while to bring down. I'll use CoS and DS as needed, esp. when encounters are all on cooldown. I try to keep recovery high enough that I rely mostly on encounters (and I use Dread)
For bosses:
Stealth --> Lashing Blade, or Stealth --> Wicked Reminder
After that I rely on keeping thee Wicked Reminder debuff at 3 stacks, continuing to pile on damage with Dishearting Strike (refreshing around the time it ends its bleed damage), Impact Strike, CoS and occasionally Vengeance's Pursuit if I need to further debuff the damage dealt from strong bosses.
I often throw in Courage Breaker into this mix.
Now, about the adjustments:
I've read a lot of suggestions, and the main thing I'd like to suggest is that our comparative damage output to other classes, esp. as a comparison HR, is much lower. We need more damage output, which can happen either through additional buffs with powers, improvements to the feat lines, improvements to how Shadow of Demise works, or whatever.
Since the biggest damage boost from using stealth is more negated due to comparable classes being able radically boost crit scores above what was possible at the level 60 cap, we do need to consider how stealth plays a role in damage.
Considering how I like to play with stealth, and how similar stealth-oriented creatures work (such as Shadow Demon). Having a boost to damage only while in stealth neglects the damage I'm dealing after I break out of stealth for my big damage shots. I like feats that increase damage after leaving stealth or while stealth is recharging.
From a build standpoint - and why I'm waiting to figure out what to do with loadouts, there's a few things that stand out. Increasing damage as a buff after enemies die is cool when there are lots of mobs, but it is worthless when you're battling Orcus, for instance. I've almost completely gone away from using any of those feats because they are only useful occasionally.
It would be nice to have more consistent buffs that we can rely on in a variety of combat situations. I use the Last Moments and Deathknell feats because I think they generally provide me with a more consistent dps boost - but that only kicks in when enemies are under a certain % of health.
If feats were reworked so that more feats had more up-time on the buffs, then we'd be more competitive. If encounter powers and class features were better conceived to give better buffs and/or bleed or CC effects - then we'd be more competitive.
My biggest hope would be that WK would do more damage on ranged attacks, it doesn't have to extend out to a ridiculous distance on the buff - and, in fact, it doesn't matter to me if it scales up the closer you are to an opponent and less the farther you way you are. I just want ranged attacks to have a boost, however they want to rework it.
That's the crux of what I'd like to see happen. I don't want to get too specific on how to get there, personally, but I also don't want to remake WK into something where I have to radically readjust my play style to make the new changes to feats and encounters work for me.
Kaelyx - TR: Whisperknife
Kae'lyxstra - OP: Protection
Kae-lyxa - DC: Divine Oracle
Kael Blazebeard - GWF: Iron Vanguard
I understand playing it how you like it but that is not the most effective way to play it. Sadly there is only 1 way which performs the best in PvE, variety is not a thing at the moment and you got to stick with it if u want to be anywhere close to others.
I see you do both ranged and melee so we can remove the negative thing from Dagger Threat suggestion. Except that i dont see how the suggestions so far would harm you if you want to play it your way.
One thing I was concerned about in the comments is that people see WK as a distance ranged class, but I don't think anyone plays WK that way. Mostly I see WK TRs get in close and then back away. I don't believe I am entirely ineffective, and those who have played with me would probably agree, but I am dedicated to providing advise to make WK more viable and on par with other classes such as HR. The concern is that many changes that could be made to WK ignore how most WK use the class and the changes in feats/encounters could be counter to the play style used by long time WK players.
Kaelyx - TR: Whisperknife
Kae'lyxstra - OP: Protection
Kae-lyxa - DC: Divine Oracle
Kael Blazebeard - GWF: Iron Vanguard
You first said: "I just want ranged attacks to have a boost, however they want to rework it." and then you said "One thing I was concerned about in the comments is that people see WK as a distance ranged class, but I don't think anyone plays WK that way."
It is contradictory.
If you want boost for ranged attacks Dagger Threat is great suggestion, without reducing melee damage.
TR is a melee class and has very few ranged attacks. Expecting to be good from range as good as you are in melee is not something we can expect. King of ranged physical damage is HR and expecting to be as good as HR in ranged combat is not something which will happen.
There is a suggestion to Blitz which additionally to current effect adds 5% damage buff. It could be seen as an equal buff to Press the Advantage from ITC with the trade that it does damage (allows SoD proc for Exe) but you lose the survivability. I mentioned this because i saw you are using this ability.
Most damage TR does comes from at-wills, faster setting up the bleeds from DF for MI is crucial as mentioned. Dagger Threat buffing DhS for WK seems fair enough, if WK doesnt want to use DF.
All suggestions should work and improve WK, i dont see which are not applying to WK.
There are 4 ranged throwing encounter powers and 2 ranged throwing at-wills for WK. That's enough to give special thought to regarding Dagger Threat and what the purpose is of WK. The features of WK include Hateful Knives - a very long-ranged attack, that borders on throwing damage based on the second strike (at the least), Vengeance's Pursuit, DhS, and Razor Action (basically a secondary ranged attack on dailies).
My point when I said "at distance" I mean long distance. Of all those powers, 3 have a range of 60 feet - CoS, Disheartening Strike and Vengence's Pursuit, the rest are at 40 feet (Hateful Knives is 80 feet, but the thrown daggers are at close range). Dagger Threat works within 20 feet, which seems unnecessarily limiting. I'm all for HR doing more damage from 40 feet plus than I could ever do, but why not at least equal within 30-40 feet?
I think you've made a good point about DF vs. DhS. They both work off of bleed damage, but it is very different. DF requires not only to be close in melee, but for a prolonged time. DhS has a range of 60 feet, so it often works best as one of the first attacks against enemies with significant HP. Theoretically, you could run DF and DhS together as a WK, but I've found from a play style approach that it doesn't work too well.
A bleed buff for TR could be nice for both melee and ranged approaches. Somehow, my build is not built around at-will damage, which may make this discussion more of a head scratcher for both of us.
Kaelyx - TR: Whisperknife
Kae'lyxstra - OP: Protection
Kae-lyxa - DC: Divine Oracle
Kael Blazebeard - GWF: Iron Vanguard
Remember that there are other suggestions that apply to both MI and WK, like overflow crit stat and possible SoD changes. So for right now, its about bridging the gap between MI and WK. Then it's up to those global buffs to bring this all in line with other classes.
For Razor Action 50% more damage to WW and HK really might not cut it. We could work with the piercing concept, but then again that's only a PvP mechanic. I'm open to re-evaluating this.
Do you have any aproximation of how long it will be till the priorities thread gets launched? I want to know how much time I have to respond. I will answer your question to PVP TRs soon but not tonight.
I will also see if I can pull any more strings to get more good pvp TRs responding.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
> @blur For PvP I worry that the changes proposed for PvE will further drive things out of whack. Here's an example of a DC+GF buffed Shocking Execution from my old sig: [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 603156 (603872) Physical Damage to Antonio Asuman.
>
> Normally, I was dealing in the range of 180-200K with self-buffs alone. At most, I can deal up to 350K by myself by setting up Fire Wheel, with Smoke Bomb + Shadow of Demise. Nothing a BiS OP with full blue and yellow HP bars survived. But we can stop at 200K and say that's not balanced.
>
> One with the Shadows: Sab capstone is bugged, where it can stack multiple times and buffs daily powers even though it clearly says "encounter powers" in the tooltip. Leading to Shocking Executions (again) ranging in 150K or higher WITHOUT First Strike.
>
> Given those, I've shortened up everything I've posted so far to these. If I can speak for every WK clinging to life, I've come up with these blanket changes:
>
> Must-Have for MI (If SoD and overflow crit should be changed)
>
> Shocking Execution: Should respect tenacity but made to ignore damage resist and all forms of shields and temp HP.
>
> Do-Or-Die for WK
>
> Dagger Threat: Your ranged at will and encounter powers deal 50% more damage and your melee powers deal 30% less.
> Razor Action: Your dagger throwing daily powers deal 50% of their damage as Bleed damage over 5 seconds.
>
> Nice to have for PvP
>
> Battlewise: Your Bleeds apply a stacking debuff (max 10/20/30 stacks) to targets reducing their healing from all sources by 1% per stack. In PvE targets affected by this debuff take 2/4/6% damage from you. ICD and stacks reset in X Y seconds.
Shocking execution does not his that huge damage with all 3 paragons of tr... maybe change the buffs in executioner instead of taking away our options for other paragons
There are some abilities that I find could simply be tweaked and will likely prove effective enough. I hope at least.
In no particular order, I'd like to offer suggestions on a few abilities of ours.
Gloaming Cut: This hits nice and hard. Yes, the animation is a bit rough but, I think if a sudden, second strike right after the first (however Cryptic would like to animate this), would make this far more viable and deadly. For instance, if the second hit were to immediately come after the first and was a guaranteed crit w/ a severity bonus, I believe it could prove itself far more useful. To compound this, the range and animation speed could be adjusted to give us more variety instead of just spamming DF. If used while in stealth, it should have an even faster animation and increased range while enjoying no diminishing returns on other TR feats that increase crit severity while in stealth. Weapon synergy: Gloaming Cut now grants 10% more stealth recharge per strike.
Cloud of Steel: I do not have a problem with this at-will but, its damage could surely be adjusted to be a bit more viable. If used while in stealth, it should apply Rank 1 Bleed. Weapon synergy: Cloud of Steel now slows the target by 10%
Sly Flourish: A faster animation is really all that is needed for this at-will. If used in while in stealth, it should apply a defense reduction similar to WR but, not as powerful. I think it is fine otherwise. Another alternative would be to speed this at-will up and make it a cone at-will. We don't have an effective multi-target at-will like many other classes. This could alleviate that. Weapon synergy: Sly Flourish now grants Rank 2 bleed.
Duelists Flurry: This is currently our bread and butter and for the most part, I find that a lot of focus is placed on this with the assumption that it should remain so. A common complaint I hear and personally experience when attempting to use this at-will is an incomplete cycle. Either the mob moves or dies in the middle of the at-will. If the mob moves, I believe our tether should be even more predictable and far reaching. If the mob dies in the middle of our DF, we retain the DF bleed stack from that mob and apply it to the next mob we get a full rotation on. Let this be a buff that dissolves after say, 15 seconds if we do not successfully land a DF rotation on another mob. This ability should passively grant Rank 3 bleed. If used while in stealth, the duration of our bleed is cut in half but does full damage.
Disheartening Strike: That animation guys, seriously? Lets do something about making that more fluid and useful. I think disheartening strike is a nice ability but, I do have a suggestion that may make it more viable. Speed that animation up and make it apply a Rank 3 Bleed. If used while in stealth, it also poisons mobs surrounding the target for 20% of the damage of disheartening strike. Weapon synergy: Disheartening Strike now demoralizes your enemy, slowing them by 20%. This effect is halved on players.
Bleed mechanic: If I understand this correctly, when we apply a bleed on a mob, that mob bleeds for x amount of time. If we reapply the bleed, all it does it refresh it. Instead, I believe the bleeds should be on separate timers for a max of 3 different bleeds. With this mechanic, no rotation changes are needed to enact this. Let these bleeds be clear by being ranked. Rank 1, 2 and 3; all bleed damage is relative to weapon damage, akin to weapon enchantments.
I would like to offer up a suggestion on new passive class features to encourage more "rogue-like" gameplay.
Flank: Using the same mechanic that grants us Gutterborn's Touch (which, in all honestly can be replaced with this), you instead deal increased damage (2/4/6/8/10%) and receive power (2/4/6/8/10%) and your recharge speed increases by (5/10/15/20/25%) while flanking your opponent. This buff lasts 2/4/6/8/10 seconds. Weapon synergy: Flank now grants rank 1 bleed on all encounter powers. To be honest, I'm not sure if this should be on whisperknife or MI or if it should be available on both.
Poisoned Blades: Having the new aboleth weapons gave me some perspective on the potential of this passive. One of four effects can be applied to mobs, every 10 seconds, on a 30 second cooldown. Creeping Death: Your targets take 20% of your power in damage every second for 10 seconds. Confusion: Targets become dazed and confused for 5 seconds. Control immune mobs take 30% damage resist reduction for 6 seconds. Enfeeblement: Reduce the recharge speed of your targets by 25%. Additionally, your attacks now add piercing damage equal to 50% weapon damage. Alacrity: Become like the wind! Your run speed, recharge speed and deflection chance is increased by 25%.
Lashing Blade: Reduce the recharge time. Bring it in line with the GWF IBS recharge speed and damage. No need for it to be a small cone, either, like with IBS. While in stealth, Lashing Blade has a +50% crit severity and grants Rank 3 Bleed.
Smoke Bomb: Make it work with enchantments. I have no idea how game breaking that would be at this point but, yeah. Go from there and we can work out the details.
Shadow of Demise: I believe that SoD has the potential to be adjusted without making it absurd. SoD should be able to hit all mobs tagged with a stealthed encounter, period. With this, however, I believe the SoD tick should be every two seconds. So, every two seconds, the mob is hit with 50% piercing damage, of all the damage given by the TR. Now, with that being said, I can imagine that people will complain about this but, I suggest making it so that the hits, since there will be 3 of them total, (2 seconds, 4 seconds and at 6 seconds) are calculated in the final SoD hit at the 6 second mark--if there is one. This essentially rewards the TR with a sizable hit if the mobs were to live long enough. We all know how fast trash gets run over in dungeons these days so, I don't think anyone will complain, honestly. If you really think about it, if you have two 50k SoD ticks, the third SoD tick will only be increased by another 50k. Unless my math is way off; it's late, after all. And lets fix the stealth interruption with this, shall we?
One with the Shadows: Currently, it is this: "Every 15 seconds, you gain the One with the Shadows effect. One with the Shadows: The next time you deal damage with an Encounter power, your Stealth meter is refilled. For 10 seconds after, your Encounter powers deal 20% more damage."
I think it should be more along the lines of: At-wills no longer drain stealth and encounter powers will not expend stealth. The next time you deal damage with an Encounter power, your Stealth meter is refilled. For 10 seconds after, your damage is increased by 20%.
I think that would make the Sabo tree much more desirable.
Skullcracker: Currently, it is this: Every 15 seconds, you gain the Skullcracker effect. Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze. The daze from this feat is half as effective on players.
I think it should be more along the lines of: Keep all the mechanics above but add; when Skullcracker is applied to a control immune mob, you deal an additional 30% damage.
Yup, that's all I've got for now. Does it all line up? Maybe not but, I think it would encourage less typical gameplay that we see currently from TRs.
Edit: I tried posting this but, it kept falling off.
-Reyvin.
By the way, yeah if I was still rolling with SE, with my stats now I should be hitting 400K on a extremely opportunistic firewheel+SE+SoD, and 200K on a regular First Strike. Given the odds it takes to actually pull off the 400K, a sabo (with the same stats) would have dished out 2-3x 150K. About the same.
There is currently no known exploits for Scoundrels, so if you meant to say exclude that path I agree with you. There are just so few sabos who know and admit to the capstone bug, that it wasn't widely understood, some do it out of instinct never actually knowing the interactions in play. Others would just do 50-80K shockings without it.
Shadow of Demise: This damage is not piercing as it's based off of post-mitigation damage. If it was TRUE piercing it would be like HR Piercing Blade that is taken from pre-mitigation numbers; i.e. Your Dazing Strike deals 80,000 (100,000) Physical damage. The number inside the parenthesis is pre-mit, and the number outside post-mit. Maybe it matters less to PvE after you cap your arpen, but tagging that power with the word piercing is wildly presumptuous. Tooltip change please. BOOM!
Anyway, what I said about "separating" WK and MI was just to create some flavor and really make them what they should be: a mid-range fighter and a close combat fighter, and both should be good, if not demons, on what they was designed for.
I really like the idea of creating some feats or rework some powers to inflict poison on our targets. Rogue-like classes all around other mmos have a lot of poisons and we don't... our only source of poison damage it's smoke bomb [please, if I'm wrong just forgive].
Well, it's nice to see so much ideas coming out. I really hope to see that "priorities thread" soon.
For a considerable amount of time after mod 6's launch, most of the pvp builds were sabotuers and many of those were one shot kill builds. As you know, sabotuers are still widespread in pvp but executioner has also made a comeback. They can't hit as hard as an executioner but they can still one shot most players if built for it (most are).
While this may come as a suprize to many people, scoundrel SEs are comparable to sabotuer SEs when they are built in a similar manner so this issue can also apply to them.
Making it so the offending buffs in executioner can't apply to SE would help but its not the entire puzzle.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
The daze needs a trigger rewrite to make its interrupt useful in more places. This passive should get an additional effect of some kind tacked onto it as well. Also, the daze durration should no longer be halved in pvp. The daze is 1 second in pve so currently, its only .5 seconds for pvp, its even shorter once you factor in control resistance, deflection, ect.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
My suggestion for SE is to have around 50k base physical damage. The ability animation stays the same as it is now, maybe a bit faster. The ability deals 50% lower damage to targets above 50% HP (almost removes the buff it can get from First Strike) and it deals 50% higher damage to targets under 50% HP. For 5 seconds after activation increases your run speed by 10% and reduces AP gain by 50% for 10 secs.
I dont know if this suggestion is fine, too weak or too strong. Devs would have to test it with all benefits vs full HP targets (First Strike+Shadowborn+Stealth rework(+SoD without FS))...
What are your opinions to this?
Shocking execution is not the reason armor pen is no longer used in pvp TR builds.
For a considerable amount of time after mod 6's launch, TRs were stacking armor pen as high as they could with some people reaching numbers as high as 130% in pvp, this was true of one shot SE builds as well. Armor pen was considered a nessasary stat for your other attacks but wasn't really intended to help with SE. I remember when I was struggling to get enough armor pen, 80% was the bare minimum amount recommended for pvp at the time and even once I hit 90% I was still trying to find ways to get more.
I am still scratching my head to this day on what exactly happened to armor pen that made it so useless. Other pvp TRs started to notice something wasn't right a few mods ago and were converting in mass to power. I was late in changing and reluctant to give my 90% armor pen up. I thought I was going to lose damage from my other attacks and that changing to power would buff SE at the expense of my other attacks. I was not a one shot kill build but other good pvp TRs that I asked were saying I should switch regardless of what kind of build I run; they claimed that I would not lose any damage for doing so. I eventually tried stripping all of my armor pen off and stacked power. To my suprize, I was doing a little bit more damage with all my attacks than when I had armor pen. The benifits of replacing armor pen with more power became obvious, it makes SE even stronger and you lose nothing by taking off the armor pen.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
It seems to me from swapping guild boons, 8k arpen to power and then back, that it's working although power simply scales better to damage in most cases. I'll venture a guess that TRs just grew out of it, other classes changes, new gears come out and there is a higher HP pool now, so power for that one shot was just the way to go. Nothing specific to arpen there, TR just got left behind by progress as always.
Sources:
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Module
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Howling_Hatred_Lockbox
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Lockbox
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Axe_Beak
Lol I can remember when this mount was one of the few mounts people actually used in pvp. On premade teams, you would see entire partys that rode axe beaks. You couldn't change mount skins back then and only the very newest mounts had stat bonuses so pvp got pretty monotonous with the release of elemental evil mounts. Flail snail was good for TRs back then as well but it was mostly TRs with big guild boons that could afford to slot them instead of an axe beak.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Suppose SE became physical damage, I'm struck in the middle of that argument. Piercing is such a core aspect of being a TR. Is it overperforming, yes. How, because maybe it scales infinitely good with things like First Strike, power and shadowborn. I was just running some base damage numbers with a good CW friend the other day, found out her base damage for ice knife and encounters are even double the base damage of shocking execution. That's understandable given we have piercing, but encounters like Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike are consistent with our horrible base damage, which is weird.
I mean - quite common loadout (pve), imo - Dazing + Smoke + WR/BF/LB. WoB + LA/CB. DF+CoS/DhS.
The difference in CoS/DhS - ? Both 60' max, and MI with DF+CoS doesn't count as "mid-ranged".
So, why should i with DF+DhS?
Imo, idea was like - MI *sticks* to target within 0-20' range and nothing can get him from where. ItC kinda *key* to that.
WK have to dodge, that's why improved version of CoS is given. DhS (on paper, ok) covers dps difference a bit, grants more damage (feated) and reduces damage from target. So - more or less - same output. But - through VP and HK, WK is able to get close to his target at almost any time, for melee-combo or finishing move.
There's o'course opportunity to combine CoS and DhS and pretend to be *ranged*... ok, we all know amount of DSP you'd lose chosing that.
One more tip, always left behind.
Maybe it's time to add "additional damage as target's HP diminishes / damage increased based on the percentage target's missimg hit points" part to LB, for example, and HK?
p.s. Rustlord. HK is a charge. 82' charge, you run as hell to your target, at 0-2' put two daggers in it, jump up, and put another two, landing. Distance between you and target when you actually hit is melee.
(especially if we remember that GWF and GF's at-will distance is 12-15' and those are clearly melee ones.)
WK needs to become the mid-ranged fighter it was originally thought up to be, but it doesn't have to take away from playing melee if you want to. That's why I preferred the range buff to be exclusive only to underappreciated passives that you can either slot or unslot per your own taste.
PS: I come up with ideas limited to my niche where I'm confident I can be right. I'm not that versed with yours so the only person who could come up with your kind of buffs is you.
Apart from that, HK is cool looking but damage dailies aren't worth slotting in PVP. Vengeance Pursuit has always been clunky trash except for PVP cheese. I tried using it again recently against Gyrion and the results were either landing in an Entangling AoE or seeing him just bounce away again. It still bugs out trying to target friendlies as well. The CC breaker aspect eas added due to forum concerns about the loss of ITC, but it's honesty too clunky for even that.
Sadly apart from Disheartening, I play my WK much the same as my MI. Daze, BladeFl, Smoke. At wills are DF and Dish. Dailies are WiB and LA. Passives Dagger Threat and Advantageous.
Disheartening and stubbornness are really the only thing that keeps her as a Whisperknife. I can say that if Dagger Threat nerfed melee damage, I would stop using it. The other ranged powers would need massive buffs to make up for the loss of 90% of the TR toolkit.
ETA Passives should be DT, Talisman