Trickster Rogue Class Balance Suggestions

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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @rustlord Ye my math is wrong, also not familiar with old Elven. Thanks for clearing it up.
    @dragoness10 If you dont use it why do you want it removed then? As earlier said by @demonmonger if it is not useful for one player doesnt mean its not useful for other player.
    image
  • dragoness10
    dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    Lag.

    Also, there are other powers that do more damage. I've been through this "dead horse" discussion before.

    You could replace it with something of similar damage or effect, and renamed "Stunning Slaps", or "Tripping Kicks", or "Mass Back Stab".

    I'm better at naming companions than powers.

    Note: I use a Survival build for both PvE and PvP, if that's any help. Defence, Deflect, Life Steal, etc...
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

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  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I still wonder why our base damage is very low compared to all other classes. Is that because stealth was envisioned as automatic 100% crit when R5 Azures were in, or are we predestined to stack power? Seems good logic as powerstacking goes, but fails completely when we introduce the subject of armor penetration/DR/tenacity. Food for thought, was it decided our base damage should be scaled back because TR have super outdated autobuffs.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @dragoness10 I barely play anymore because of lag, every power causes lag for me. If i would suggest powers to remove bcs of lag i could suggest them all but this isnt helpful for ongoing suggestions for TR class. If u you used max dps build instead survival you would know that Smoke Bomb is too good to be removed.

    image
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User

    As a TR I won't cry if Smoke Bomb is removed. I never use it. Particle effects are laggy anyhow.

    This is what we must prevent. People saying they don't care about powers because they don't use them, or people saying powers they don't use should be changed is not right. You are killing someones gameplay. What is all the powers you use people later say no one uses and therefore your powers should be changed or removed from game?
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    @demonmonger Thanks, this is much better and a critic which can be worked on.

    1. I agree, even tho it seems useless it has some application, we cant expect all abilities to grant additional damage.
    2. Except for Smoke Bomb these dazes are quite short while 8 seconds is quite long. In PvE there is no need for this since CA is always up, at least in group content. In PvP i believe everyone uses Smoke Bomb, with decent recovery you would be able to have CA always just from this ability alone if duration of CA is 8 secs.
    3. CB can be kept up permanently. At least some down time would go towards balance.
    4. Agree, maybe Stealth should stay at 100% for half a sec.
    5. Nice idea but i guess too much abuse would be caused. You could use 3 stealthed encounters in row plus stealthed daily in less than 2 seconds if you dont have to wait for stealth to fully refill.

    1. We should... and we should always have increased critical change from behind and combat advantage.
    2. 8 seconds is not long in pvp. Pve doesnt matter because we always have combat advantage.
    3. NO courage breaker must not be changed
    4. Once stealth reaches 100% it would not matter about a half second because the stealth bar locks at full if you are not in stealth.
    5. Many people have 100% critical chance as it is. Plus if you use an encounter from stealth the stealth bar drains to zero, then if you are being attacked it does not refill instantly, furthermore each attack done to you makes your stealth go down if it is not a full bar. There would be no problem.
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  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User

    Lag.

    Also, there are other powers that do more damage. I've been through this "dead horse" discussion before.

    You could replace it with something of similar damage or effect, and renamed "Stunning Slaps", or "Tripping Kicks", or "Mass Back Stab".

    I'm better at naming companions than powers.

    Note: I use a Survival build for both PvE and PvP, if that's any help. Defence, Deflect, Life Steal, etc...

    This sounds like an fps drop and not lag. Try lowering the graphic setting, or particle count in setting.

    And unfortunately there aren't many options for AoE encounters, and specifically nothing that will do more dps (overall) than smoke in crowded AoE situation.
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @demonmonger
    3. If AP gain ever gets adjusted CB is fine. Many dailies are problematic bcs of high AP gain which allows them to be used way too often. It doesnt affect me, i have nothing against it staying as is but seemed like fair adjustment for quite a powerful ability. Maybe not that powerful tho, as @rustlord mentioned.
    4. This is refered to Shadow Strike, i believe you said stealth doesnt stay at full bcs of incoming damage. Keeping stealth locked at 100% for half a second after Shadow Strike would solve that problem with incoming damage.
    5. The abuse of this is more in PvE, as you said in PvP would probably not be the case. In PvE you dont take damage as often as in PvP so you gain stealth enough to use all 3 encounters stealthed in row in small time window.
    image
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Nah... if you attack from stealth without lurkers stealth is gone, unless you are sab.

    This toggle will just allow us to better manage our stealth like gf and his shield.
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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @demonmonger Yes but right after its gone its starting to refill. Even if its only at 5% you could enter stealth and use encounter if it was the same as GF's shield or GWF's sprint.
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  • kittehneko
    kittehneko Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    The biggest problem I have right now is that the TR is so outclassed by every other DPS class right now, that in order for me to get anything for my rogue from SVA so I can upgrade my Shadewalkers, I am having to unlock SVA on my DC and get the marks on that character. I have the same issue with FBI. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person experiencing this problem either.

    That said, I love the suggestions being made, if even a small fraction of these changes go through, I might be able to run SVA on my TR instead of my DC, which would make me a very happy person.
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    I like where @demonmonger is going with the toggle stealth. I've tinkered with the idea a while back, but what I'm seeing potential problem is our encounters are set up to consume stealth. This may take more work than we can afford to propose right now. How much would certain encounters, say Deft Strike, deplete stealth? Considering it's a utility power, so it shouldn't be much. How much should Lashing Blade? You can't very well have Lashing off, toggle stealth, followed up by Dazing. Then Impact Shot and a couple other powers are charged based, and get a free charge from stealth, how much depletion? If you meant that encounters should still consume the full bar, the point is moot so in that case toggle stealth may be easier to achieve; Is it worthwhile though? I do this when I'm out of combat by pressing my mount button twice.

    Basically it's either too much work to have encounters deplete only the right amount of stealth, and it's too little gain if it simply toggled stealth but power activation still consumed it.
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    rustlord said:

    I like where @demonmonger is going with the toggle stealth. I've tinkered with the idea a while back, but what I'm seeing potential problem is our encounters are set up to consume stealth. This may take more work than we can afford to propose right now. How much would certain encounters, say Deft Strike, deplete stealth? Considering it's a utility power, so it shouldn't be much. How much should Lashing Blade? You can't very well have Lashing off, toggle stealth, followed up by Dazing. Then Impact Shot and a couple other powers are charged based, and get a free charge from stealth, how much depletion? If you meant that encounters should still consume the full bar, the point is moot so in that case toggle stealth may be easier to achieve; Is it worthwhile though? I do this when I'm out of combat by pressing my mount button twice.

    Basically it's either too much work to have encounters deplete only the right amount of stealth, and it's too little gain if it simply toggled stealth but power activation still consumed it.

    All encounters used from stealth mode should deplete stealth 100% as they do now, unless you are under lurkers assault.
    The toggle allows you to stealth to move from place to place without consuming all of your stealth bar.
    The toggle allows you control of stealth mode to turn it off as you chase someone down and turn it on before you attack.
    (as it is now, if you stealth and chase someone, most of the time stealth will end before you arrive at the enemy - wasting stealth completely)

    I also use the mount to deactivate my stealth, or my chair, but this should not be needed. Toggle is needed
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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    I understand its has pros but it has cons as well. It would make abilities which refill stealth lose their value, such as Invisible Infiltrator. Aside for damage bonus for 5 secs, why bother slotting this to refill stealth when u can use it at 5% as well...
    It could be solved by limiting damage focused encounters to be activated from stealth only when stealth is 80%+ full but this is another complication.
    Maybe i didnt understand the suggestion. Would we be able to enter stealth only when its full or at any percentage? Leaving stealth when pressing tab seems nice but re-stealthing when its not full would need more balancing.
    image
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @blur Yes even if it were to deplete 100% of stealth on encounter use, if you were able to get back into stealth at 10% of your recharge bar, won't you simply fire LB, 1 second passes, stealth again, fire Dazing, another second, Blade Flurry, wait, Flurry, wait Flurry. That gets worse because these types of encounter you get a free charge off of stealth.

    Would you have to limit encounter use up to until you have 80% or some threshold, or hardcode that it doesn't get a bonus until you are at that threshold.. either way will be sort of weird. One way maybe is to do sort of like, charged based stealth, like Divinity or Soul Sparks maybe.. but same thing, I'm guessing it could be too much work too little gain. I could be wrong of course. I just don't know how to answer the questions above. Something @demonmonger best solve along with the proposal because that's definitely interesting as well.

    Edit: If you look at Divinity it has partly the same issue, charges give you a free encounter that can be spammable, therefore they needed to create a whole new toned down set of Divinity Encounters all together.
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    I agree with @blur and @rustlord. While it does seem like a cool idea on the surface, it's one of those things that could create a lot more balance issues than it solves. I think the devs, with limited time and resources, are going to be very reluctant to make a change like this.

    Personally, I think it's a very interesting idea, but I'd rather us spend our energies on the ideas that are most likely to effect the change we all want to see in TRs, with the least probability of class breaking issues, and the easiest for the devs to implement.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @sirjimbofrancis said:
    > I agree with @blur and @rustlord. While it does seem like a cool idea on the surface, it's one of those things that could create a lot more balance issues than it solves. I think the devs, with limited time and resources, are going to be very reluctant to make a change like this.
    >
    > Personally, I think it's a very interesting idea, but I'd rather us spend our energies on the ideas that are most likely to effect the change we all want to see in TRs, with the least probability of class breaking issues, and the easiest for the devs to implement.

    I could say the same thing to all the proposals here.

    My idea is not game breaking. It works..
    The only change would be that you can toggle stealth as long as you have some bar left. Easy to add to game...
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  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @demonmonger, we have a ton of buffs from entering, or for x amount of time after leaving, stealth. Most all of whom stack.

    If we could stealth every time we got 10% of our stealth back, it would be ridiculous. It would require many more changes than just the one you propose. Oh, it would be great for, maybe, two weeks. Then we'd all be nerfed into oblivion.

    I want the changes we propose to be effective for just a bit longer. The goal here is not to buff us to being on top of all other dps classes. It's to bring us on par with other classes. This is a point that you seem to have missed.

    Not one single change we have proposed would have the impact of this one suggestion.

    *edited- "sarcastic insulting remarks" removed. I'll try to refrain from being snarky, @demonmonger
    Post edited by sirjimbofrancis on
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @blur

    Here is my response to your breakdown of my roundup of missing ideas:

    @sirjimbofrancis beat me to it on explaining why dazes are expected to grant CA.

    I am still unsure on tenacious consealment, I haven't retested it more thoroughly yet but it doesn't look good so far.

    I have not tested action advantage so not sure there.

    Bloodbath causes at least some passives to multiply by 2. Razor action does this and so does invisible infultraitor and infultraitor's action. So when you activate bloodbath, you get II X 2 and IA X 2 as an example. Your damage spikes after you use BB because of this and if you look at the icons for these 2 passives, it will say X 2 for both of them.

    Its not dire for sly flourish to get a speed increase but it would be nice if it was better able to compete with other at wills. If more complicated at wills get more damage, it stands to reason that simpler ones should be a little easier to use and faster to complete. I don't know if 25% is the right number to use but I do think a speed increase would help with it, that number was sugested origionally by someone else.

    For survivor, I'll come back with a later post with sugestions for it.

    Concussive strikes is only too short in pvp, in pve, its fine. Also, elven battle users are in the minority in pvp. I don't expect it to be upgraded to anything beyond a small interrupt but it is too watered down currently. Remember that when you deflect an attack that has a control effect, the duration of that control effect is halved. Most pvp players have a lot of deflect so that happens quite a lot. There is also more sorces of cc resistance than there used to be and tenacity also takes a massive chunk out of cc durations. Concussive strikes does not need to be increased by much and a little goes a long way, but after working with it for a long time, I do think that its current duration of 1.2 seconds in pvp is too short. Increasing it to 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds in pvp would help the scoundrel out and its not enough to break anything.

    Mocking gesture at the very least, should be moved to be lower in the scoundrel tree or reworked some to make it a little better. Its very underwelming to be a tier 5 feat and again, it does not complement a tree that has no stealth enhancers very well. My guess is the devs thought that it would be too strong origionally if placed into a tree with more stealth so they gave it to scoundrel to dilute it some. This decison did not withstand the test of time. I have used it in my build in the past and its not a bad feat by itself, its just that it doesn't pair too good with the scoundrel. Its not easy to keep up and not really worth the trouble even when you have the right build setup for it. The devs could also make mocking gesture and survivor swap places and then rework survivor to be really good. Mocking gesture still wouldn't be great and often left by the wayside but at least it would no longer eat up tier 5 space.

    Scoundrel's movement speed bonus already is up most of the time, the only time its not up is if it has been less than 15 seconds since you last used an encounter. this means you don't get to use it in combat really. Your idea of making its buff last 7 seconds is better than it is currently in some ways but there is no reason why it shouldn't be made permanant. Also, there is no reason why speed builds shouldn't be one of the pros of going scoundrel. Keep in mind other classes already can go speed build without as many cons that a TR would suffer from doing the same. A prime example of this are speed build GWFs in pvp, SWs can do something similar only with stamina instead of movement speed, GFs are fast as hell in pvp and suffer vitually no cons for it, and HRs can reach a platform faster than any other class using one of their encounters + other stuff.
    Also keep in mind SOD has a permanant increase of its very own in the form of making it so your stealth regen is no longer stalled from taking damage. A permanant utility increase for scoundrel such as movement speed hardly seems out of place and its definatly not a balance issue.
    I also don't get why you think that simply changing the daze to a stun is an "unessasary complication". Seems pretty simple and reasonable to be honest. It also fixes the problems with scullcracker's daze whereas leaving at is would keep scullcracker's cc pointless when activated with most of the popular TR encounters. Why advocate to only fix half of scullcracker when all of it needs work?
    Also, speaking of unnessary complications, you left in the part of scullcracker that says your attacks extend the daze by .5 seconds up to a maximum of 2 additonal seconds. If that's not an unnessasary complication I don't know what is.

    With my flurry sugestion, I don't see how it wouldn't be helpful at least for pve. Part of people's complaints are that DF is clunky and inconveniant if your target moves away a lot. If you could end the flurry by walking, you can react a little faster and easier to pve creatures wandering off. In pvp, it may render lunging fowards with DF impossible so I'm less sure of how useful it would be there. Then again, part of the reason people lunge fowards with DF in pvp to begain with is because its clunky and extra strategies are needed to land the flurry. With your other sugested changes to DF's flurry, and bleed ticks, the loss of the jump lunge would likely even out and DF would become more fluid to use for both pvp and pve.
    At the very least, ask for the CC immunity and cling effect to get put into the official tooltip.

    scoundrel training could be viable in a wider range of content under my sugestion, I do think that is worth the slight loss in power in specifically group pve content to be able to use it in all situations. Its not a super important change so it probably should not get priority though.

    I am not arguing for sneak attack's effects to be taken out of the game, just moved to another neglected passive on top of whatever bonus that other passive has. I don't think 100% of passives should be damage either, just that sneak attack would be a good place to put damage and that its current effect should be moved since its not enough by itself to get most people to take it anyway.

    Our at wills not draining stealth was something TRs used to have a long time ago, it was one of the things that got nerfed when the devs were on a wild goose chase trying to kill permastealth. All those nerfs did was hurt all TRs while failing to actually kill permastealth. The nerfs did hurt stealth pvp builds too but they still took less of a hit than other TR builds. Ironically, this gave stealth pvp builds an even bigger advantage over other pvp TR builds since it widened the preformance gap between stealthyer TRs and more modest builds.
    I am unsure if making it so at wills don't drain stealth is the best way to buff stealth, it may be that things have changed too much to bring it back now but its something to consider.
    Making it so you don't have stealth regen interruped by incomming damage and recharging stealth is no longer depleted by incomming damage is probably the better fix. Stealth should be improved either way since permastealth will still be around regardless of what choice we make and it helps all TRs.
    If anything, the number of stealthyer builds might drop in responce to a stealth improvement + other improvements since a lot of people wish they could break out of the current narrow meta and try other things without being penalized for doing so.

    The idea of giving sabotuer 25% more stealth meter I proposed to be more in line with SOD giving a permanant utility benifit. Again, permastealth is not going to die either way and I don't think that 25% is going to make it significantly worse on its own. it may have a more negative effect if other major stealth improvements are implemented alongside it but by itself, its unlikely to cause significant issues.

    Definatly bring up the CA is added to crit severity issue, its probably a gamewide issue but its something that would be very benificial for the devs to fix alongside the TR rework.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    > @sirjimbofrancis said:
    > Of course, @demonmonger, I'm sure you are right. Being able to stealth whenever we have any stealth built up would hardly be class breaking at all. We only have a thousand buffs from entering or for x amount of time after leaving stealth. Most all of whom stack.
    >
    > If we could stealth every time we got 10% of our stealth back, it would be ridiculous. It would require many more changes than just the one you propose. Oh, it would be great for, maybe, two weeks. Then we'd all be nerfed into oblivion.
    >
    > I want the changes we propose to be effective for just a bit longer. The goal here is not to buff us to being on top of all other dps classes. It's to bring us on par with other classes. This is a point that you seem to have missed.
    >
    > Not one single change we have proposed would have the impact of this one suggestion.

    It won't be as you imagine...
    I didn't miss anything....
    Thanks for your sarcastic insulting remarks...
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  • mafiadelperro#8853
    mafiadelperro#8853 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    > @demonmonger said:
    > > @sirjimbofrancis said:
    > > Actually it will be a lot of work you have to change a lot things with your suggestion like almost every feat will have to be remake cunning ambusher stacks for example or shady preparation from sabo tree actually now that i think about it sabo build will need a complete rework lol i know you have good intentions and i actually think about your suggestion sometime ago but dev are doing just a little change on classes trying to balance Little by little each class the fastest way possible and something i like to point out about bugs or not work as intented is the whirlwind blade dailys it suppose to buff with some buff like AA or is just base power?
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    I will say that, as per @micky1p00, daze is supposed to grant CA. We should list every power that dazes and doesn't grant CA in the bug section in one line to keep it simple.

    Here's more reading if anyone is interested: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/combat-advantage

    As I have stated before, dazing strike is the only TR daze that grants CA. I also personally tested this after @demonmonger tipped me off on this issue a while back. Even my scoundrel dazes don't grant CA.

    Update:
    I just retested all dazes to make sure nothing changed and this time, I also tested all other CC effects at our disposal. Only dazing strike grants combat advantage as expected. I also tested all CCs that require you to be stealthed, if you use lashing blade right after triggering those, you will break stealth before those CCs wear off, allowing you to see that they also don't grant CA. I even tested the slow from our artifact weapon power.
    I'm not sure if other CCs besides daze are suposed to grant CA in this game or not but it would make sense for them to, all CCs did provide combat advantage in d&d at least.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    As a TR I won't cry if Smoke Bomb is removed. I never use it. Particle effects are laggy anyhow.

    Its one thing not to be upset if a power is removed but it looks like you are actually advocating for SB to be removed. Just because you don't use/like a power, does not mean it should be removed for everyone else. Its amoung the most frequently used powers for just about all TRs in all locations. I would like to see more encounters buffed to be more competative with SB but this power should not be removed.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @trgluestickz
    Bloodbath indeed procs passives twice. This may be an intended hidden buff because the Daily itself is rather weak. Damage is low, no buff from it, its rather an escape tactic or as @archangelzorak01 said OhSh!tButton. So in case of Invisible Infiltrator it may seem a lot, doubled buff which is 40% damage increase for 5 seconds but Bloodbath itself lasts 3 seconds and you are left with 2 seconds only. It serves as buff for Bloodbath itself and you have time to use one encounter. In case of Infiltrator's Action it is 10% buff for 20 seconds, this is a nicer buff but since Bloodbath itself grants no buff it isnt gamebreaking. In case of Razor Action it is problematic because RA has piercing damage but problematic only for PvP and from feedback so far it seems noone is complaining about this being too much. Also our suggestion for RA is fixing this anyway.

    I think TR's are underestimating Sly Flourish a lot. It is not meant to be our primary atwill but as a secondary its more than good. When you apply bleeds on target its time to slip in Sly Flourish which hits harder than all the hits of Duelist's Flurry, Bleeds excluded, plus it has a debuff. Also when things are dying fast dont bother with DF, just go Sly Flourish and you will have a better result. I dont have nothing against speed (damage) increase but we should be careful not to suggest too much. 10% is more than enough i guess.

    About Concussive Strikes, it seems like they implement only halved duration versus players, i havent seen other percentage so far. Daze can happen every 5 secs. To last 2 secs versus players as you suggest, it would have to be 4 seconds normally which is too much, 1 sec down time. Does 3 secs normally and 1.5 versus players sound good enough?

    I really dont suggest moving any feats anywhere as you suggest for Mocking Gesture, just change the feat completely if you think it needs a change, its more simple than moving feats around. When we are already in Stealth we are invisible, adding deflect to it is quite powerful and thats the reason why it is given to the tree which can benefit the least from it. Giving Survivor the effect of Mocking gesture is fine, and suggesting something new for Mocking gesture seems ok as well. On a second thought i had to edit this, this doesnt seem fine because Mocking gesture effect given to t2 feat Survivor would make this available to Saboteur and there it is, available to tree with highest Stealth.

    Being invisible and fast is the reason why i think it should not be permanent. Others are fast but not invisible. If it would be permanent i would rather suggest a decrease in current number than increase, 10%, down from 15%. Stun is a complication because TR has no stuns so far and needs further adjustments. Being Dazed is not same as being Stunned. Dazed targets can move out of Smoke Bomb while stunned ones cant. Current extendable daze is indeed complicated but it is already there, it requires no work because its already made.

    If you need to move away during Flurry you may as well dodge. I think this suggestion would hurt more than it would help. Some bosses move only a bit or push you away so we tend to keep forward button pressed all the time. This would break our Flurry always. Sure the CC immunity and cling can be added to tooltip but this is not just a DF "issue", more a general problem with tooltips.

    Scoundrel training with 5% suggestion would hurt all PvE TR's, especially those who picked Human race for additional point in this feat.

    Why not keep Sneak attack and add some minor effect to improve it, like additional 10% crit severity in Stealth and take Oppressive darkness and suggest what you wanted to suggest for Sneak attack?

    Our atwills are already by far highest source of damage and they not draining stealth is a buff for them. In the beginning we stated we are asking for simplification and not really a buffs. Buffs are fine for the parts which are behind such as scoundrel/sabo/WK only things.

    Sabo already has highest access to Stealth and with proposed Stealth crit severity it is benefiting the most from it.


    All these suggestions are nice but we have to consider the amount of time and work devs are willing to invest in TR. In my opinion our chances are far higher if we are asking for 2 things than if we ask for 20 things to be done. In our bug section there are already 10 things to be worked on. In our compiled suggestions thread there are already 26 suggestions to be worked on. As i already said before if i had to i could lower it down to 6 most important.
    Bottom line, there are almost 40 things to be worked on, bugs and suggestions combined. 40. Things you and i discuss here are additional 15 things. That makes it 55 and plus things we didnt include here recently. I am sure the end number is quite big. As i said i would be happy if 10% of it gets implemented.
    Post edited by blur#5900 on
    image
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User

    > @demonmonger said:

    It won't be as you imagine...

    I didn't miss anything....

    Thanks for your sarcastic insulting remarks...

    Why won't it be as I imagine?
    If you didn't miss anything, then why won't it be as I imagine?
    Sarcastic remarks removed.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:


    About Concussive Strikes, it seems like they implement halved duration versus players, i havent seen other percentage so far. Daze can happen every 5 secs, to last 2 secs versus players as you suggest it would have to be 4 seconds normally which is too much, 1 sec down time. Does 3 secs normally and 1.5 versus players sounds good enough?

    @blur

    For pve, concussive strikes is a 2.5 second long daze. On the actual tooltip, it states directly that it is halved in pvp. In pvp, that means its 1.2 seconds. It should be 1.8 seconds at least and again, 2 seconds isn't at risk of being overpowered. Here is why:

    In pve, remember that monsters have very little means if any of reducing the duration of your CCs. On top of this, if you have any control bonus in pve, your cc will likely end up longer than the origional number. So that 2.5 in pve is going to be a lot closer to actual 2.5 or longer when it goes through monster defenses than in pvp where the CC will often be way less than half of whatever number you started with in pvp. Keeping in mind the daze is already halved in pvp before any defenses are accounted for, here is a general idea what it looks like after all of those defenses cut into it:

    Deflection cuts CCs by half so you now have a daze of a whopping .6 seconds just from this one defensive measure if we are starting with 1.2 seconds as the base number for pvp. If we use my sugestion of 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds it would be .9 or 1 second after deflection. Most pvp players have a lot of deflection chance so your daze is subject to this cut for most hits you make.
    If that wasn't non-OP enough, it then gets filtered through roughly 40 something precent tenacity for players with 4 decent pvp gear peices (2k the bare minimum recommended amount, you hit diminishing returns after 3k tenacity).
    Its also filtered through how ever much other CC resist they have amassed, incuding trans elven battle if they have one, certain epic insignias, numerous boons, valindras set, artifacts, offhand stats, and whatever else they can pull out of their a$$ that I forgot to mention.
    Some classes have additional defenses against CCs as well.
    They will also dodge/block some of the procs of concussive strikes altogether.
    The person is also moving around, a lot.
    Lag is also a thing
    There are other foes or your own teammates getting in your way from time to time.
    Also pvp TRs do not stack critical strike at all so they can't crit 100% of the time like pve TRs can. Concussive strikes requires you to either crit or hit from behind to proc the daze and can only be used once every 5 seconds.
    Its impossible to actually proc concussive strikes once every 5 seconds on the nose.

    You say that if the daze is changed to be 2 seconds in pvp then it must be changed to 4 seconds in pve to accomodate this, why may I ask is this nessasary? There is no rule that everything that must be reduced in pvp should only ever be half of what it is in pve. There is a trend of that being what the devs chose to implement in the past but considering the other outdated stuff we asked to have fixed, I see no reason why a number that is not a half value is something they won't consider.
    I do not think concussive strikes should be increased in pve at all. For pve, concussive strikes should stay 2.5. For pvp, half of 2.5 (1.2) is too short. The number for pvp should not be half of the pve number, it should be whatever number achieves the best balance in pvp and I don't think your sugestion of 1.5 seconds for pvp is enough. 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds is likely to be that hotspot number.

    After all of that, 2.5 seconds might not even be too much these days for pvp. i'm still leanign more towards 2 secs or 1.8 but honestly I wouldn't be suprized if 2.5 seconds is actually ok in pvp now.
    @rustlord , do you by any chance know when deflection halving ccs was implemented? I figure there's a good chance that it was implemented after scoundrel already got their stuns nerfed not to mention all the gear and boons that were added since then.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @trgluestickz I get it, the number is too low after all those reductions :) but we are debating here too much because of few milliseconds, which is the end result of this. Also you are forgetting that additionally to dazes from Concussive strike there are dazes from Skullcracker and dazes from encounters, daze from passive (as short as it is). CC resistance has always to be superior to CC itself otherwise it is not balanced.
    You have a point with "There is no rule that everything that must be reduced in pvp should only ever be half of what it is in pve.", it is just that it was done only that way so far.
    To make it simple and conclude this. Daze of 2 seconds for both PvE and PvP ?
    image
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    blur#5900 said:

    @trgluestickz I get it, the number is too low after all those reductions :) but we are debating here too much because of few milliseconds, which is the end result of this. Also you are forgetting that additionally to dazes from Concussive strike there are dazes from Skullcracker and dazes from encounters, daze from passive (as short as it is). CC resistance has always to be superior to CC itself otherwise it is not balanced.
    You have a point with "There is no rule that everything that must be reduced in pvp should only ever be half of what it is in pve.", it is just that it was done only that way so far.
    To make it simple and conclude this. Daze of 2 seconds for both PvE and PvP ?

    That should be fine, I am curious about the idea of 2.5 seconds returning to pvp, but I would rather shoot for a safe middle ground than risk an experiment. 2 secs should be fine.

    and no, I did not forget about the other dazes.
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  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    @trgluestickz

    From my knowledge it's always been like that, but even as a BETA player I feel like I've been a TR, and used ITC my whole life so I'm on the opposite end of the deflection issue. As far as I know control classes have always complained about deflection not "halving" but I think it was more deflect severity (50-75%) being applied to CC if the attack itself was deflected. I could be wrong of course, somebody probably knows more about it.