I ran with a GWF running Lostmauth and a GWF using the Orcus and you know what, both had relic weapons and both were 3800 IL with R12 bonding on Fire Archon. Guess who was top DPS in CN. Yeah it was the player running the Lostmauth set. Just because it states BiS does not always mean it is always the best set to run with.
Guess why GWFs or CWs/SWs TRs are running like hell from trash mob group to trash mob group? You can push paingiver a lot if you hit first. If your really wanna know whats going on with DPS make a CN run with theese both GWFs and use ACT. Take a look at boss DPS, cuzz who the hell cares about trash DPS? So dont trust paingiver.
@ravenskya my main used to be tr mi for a while. when I first started playing it was extremely hard not to get kicked in a pug freshly popping into 2k, and I honestly don't think any class gets more hate than tr. It also really just makes me laugh at different excuses people come up with on why (x) can't do (y) unless they have (z).
right around september I was getting the boot left and right with people saying, "nah you need gwf for orcus", when I managed to get a sneak in already at the fire, because nobody would even think about taking me through the door way. I've grouped with some amazing melter tr too, but I have yet to see any requests for one in somi. as a matter of fact, a mi was in the group I was kicked from in the OP, higher ilvl than me t
The problem with MMOs is the community. Rarely do players who understand the content when running with a random group takes the time to educate the the new players on mechanics or improvement in rotation and build to help the lower IL or new players out. Most groups simply start a kick for whatever reason instead.
I been in one run where the worst player was simply spamming kicks. He tried to kick me, my friend, and both other players. This player was simply being carried and complained in chat how long the run was taking. He did about a 1/10 of my damage and I was on my DC. I was patient, tried to explain things, mechanics, etc...player wanted a 100% carry.
Now I'm on PS4 and prior to taking an extended break, there was no carrying when I left. You worked as a group and you beat content as group. It seems that this does not happen now as much as it did previously, but back when I left at that point many of us were new to NW and had a lower IL than I do now. In fact, 90% of the groups I ran with, I had the highest IL by over 300 points if not more.
Move forward to now, on average in every run I see at least one if not two players who are over 3100 IL and every 5th run I run into a player who is 4K+ IL. I'm not stating IL = skill or that the high IL character will make content easier, as I can vouch that IL does not equal skill or ability to complete content. What it does is usually results in players not learning mechanics and working as a team to get content done.
Lately in many of my T1 dungeons runs the lower IL players expect a carry. It is quite frustrating to be with a group of players who are under 3K to not play to their full ability simply because a 3K+ character is in the group. It seems as if these players simply want a carry and are not pulling their weight. Try to explain mechanics, and next thing I know I'm kicked.
I personally don't think that way. And if the group gets stuck I try to explain mechanics. Sometimes it works, other times when someone simply wants a carry I get kicked. The thing that gets me though is, I get kicked as the tank or healer and when I get kicked it is really not my lose as I know the reason for the failure, the DPS players are not paying attention to mechanics and is causing the group to fail. Hard to beat the last boss in Malborg alone when all other players died and I end up getting choked by Valindra or in VT, same thing. One player even said to me on my DC I should improve my DPS. I'm like whatever, I'm a buffer/debuffer and healer, I'm not a DPS.
Mechanics matter IMO more than any build, gear, etc...
Players wanting specific sets, simply want content to be easier and are using FotM gear and probably class as well. To each their own.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
@ragequittingdc#8599 on top of being a TR - I'm a Whisperknife TR... so I don't even get to use the +25% damage feats that the MI uses. But I have a very fun Bleed/DOT build that is quite effective if the monsters are around long enough for the bleeds and dots to take effect.
No Meta for me
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@ragequittingdc#8599 on top of being a TR - I'm a Whisperknife TR... so I don't even get to use the +25% damage feats that the MI uses. But I have a very fun Bleed/DOT build that is quite effective if the monsters are around long enough for the bleeds and dots to take effect.
No Meta for me
And that is why I like running with you on your toons. You build them to meet how you play. I do the same. Why go out and get BiS items today that will cost me say $200 to get max level when those can change over night due to a fix or a new item coming out. If I was a BiS chaser, I now would have to drop more money down and get the next BiS. Screw that, I'm not here to keep up with the Jones. I'm here to play a game that occupies some of my entertainment time.
3
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
There is a world of difference between a player who understands the game reasonably well and chooses to make an atypical character because they want to, and one who doesn't bother putting in any effort and then gets peeved that what they're doing doesn't work very well.
I think people who take the attitude of "everyone but me is toxic"... are actually rather toxic.
If everyone played the same no one would have come up with the Stealadin build - which I'm still considering trying out some day just for the fun of it.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
DC is one class that it seems nobody can really agree with, as far as how and what they are supposed to do, meta or otherwise. you have some, like @dupeks saying they must at all times be healing, no time to pick up the fallen, must keep up AA, et cetera. other times I read this forum, I see that the actual healing aspect is dead in the water, it's all about buffs and how fast you can stack them. I can't tell you the last time I've grouped with an oracle tbh, pug or premade. maybe those 3.8k+ fbi premades consiting of 3 DC and pvp GF's are where they are hiding at.
in my experience playing gwf, the meta for the dps is being strung along by the meta of the tanks/heals due to the way AA works and because the dual pve/pvp built tanks run out of stamina too quickly and have short attention spans. we're simply expected to kill as fast as possible because the cheese is so potent. who cares how much survivability a dps has, or their actual skill concerning mechanics. it's like the silent dictatorship you have to encounter to really know about. note that I'm not saying every player of these classes is like that, I've met some awesome and great players of every class, also very humble and respectful, even around the clearly noob players that wind up pugged with us. keeping in mind that the exception is not the rule, what I generally have had to deal with is being expected to be #1 paingiver, since I'm a gwf, aka, "FAT dps, top deeps".
Let me have been #2 or #3 in a group with any other dps class, here comes that silent vote kick initiated by whom I wonder, which was rare because I'm almost always #1, not bragging or boasting. that's more along the lines of the mid 2k pugging though. 3k players are slightly more understanding of the mechanics and know it can easily sway to first come first serve strikes. an easy and common example, cn pugs. nobody likes that gwf sprinting ahead, but nobody has a problem with the cw or hr starting their spell mastery icy tornado or arrow rain encounters. daring shout doesn't even generate threat, but these things can make or break who is in 1st place when equally or outgeared. I have to build up my dps before I can really start clearing the room you know, or I will be left stinking; absolutely no room for lethargy. generally not a problem, but among the bigger, broader guilds and alliances, you'll start getting a bad name and people will skip over you.
maybe I should just join their guild then so they can invite me just for association right? I wouldn't even want to join a guild that operates that way. especially one that invites scrubs that just want to be carried through content until they are geared up to cheese with the rest of the guild, then try to dictate the meta because hey, they ran a perfect msva lol. I just don't support that mentality, sorry about the rant, not trying to flame. I do suspect alot of DC's and dps will be exposed come april 11th, sort of like old bubble pallys.
one thing I forgot, concerning sva and fbi, the healing aspect pretty much is dead in my experience. good tanks dont need much healing, bad tanks and meta dps are getting one shot regardless. can't heal a corpse. it's also much more ideal for a DC to do pick ups at orcus too because of AA. orcus can grunt all he wants, but all his strength translates into wasted effort. better for me to build up into that IBS that can take a chunk off and finish him since the tank could flub at any given moment and the other dps is only doing 1/3 of what I am in most groups. groups that they aren't, it doesn't even get that far because he's dead before he hits the ceiling.
@jonkoca the stealadin is a healadin based off of lifesteal and prism. Every life steal heals the team. It's an interesting concept
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
1- With regards to @dupeks comment, it stands true. A tank or healer should not focus on reviving, but instead on performing their role. The tank should not lose aggro, and the healer should ensure the rest of the team stays alive. Now in NW, healers are not needed, with the exception maybe of lower ilvl teams who might require it. The case remains however that a DC needs to perform their role.
2- As a DC the meta is to spam AA... most players have no clue why the AA spam is really important. At least they only understand half of it... the damage mitigation. The other and more important half is the power share. As detailed previously in the thread, a player with R12 bondings and a legendary companion receives 3x the power share from a DC. For simplicity, let's say 3x DC base power.
So many DC's I see around who stack very high on Recovery, and forgo the power (which is shareable). But no one cares or understands that... so all they ask is for you to spam AA... not to repeat much of what 2 separate threads addressed about it, but we're basically asked to focus and spam AA in order for everyone else not to worry about mechanics.
For a support class, it does get irritating, when you are expected to work so others don't. It's not even a request of this will go faster the more power you got, so be sure to spam it.
3- There will always be a meta, and it will always be annoying for those of us who know our classes. I myself have gotten to 3.9K, still rocking R11 bondings (they don't share so whatever) and have followed the "BiS" build for PvE.. (Jarek's build basically) mostly because I got the items cheap or as drops. And yet it annoys me when I see a team disregard mechanics...
To finally talk about MSVA, rarely have I encountered a player that actually understands that AA mitigation disappear after a couple of hits (4 hits), and the more red circle DoTs they drop, the faster it disappears. Guess who gets blamed if someone dies?
But that is the nature of MMOs, the few players with skill and patience and most importantly generosity, will figure out the best builds and share them with the community, and the masses will flock to them without any real understanding...
There are always exceptions, people who follow the meta, but are fully aware of why it matters, and tend to understand how to judge others without elitism.... if only such people were the meta...
can somebody point me in the direction where the idea that dps should be picking up the downed from? play how you play, and make no mistake, despite using a circumstance saying otherwise, I do plenty of pick ups, but I just would like to know why this is a thing. the first cutscene of playing this game is of xune biting off more than she can chew and it's not marko running to her aid, it's celeste. why do people want sgt. knox to do the job of celeste?
can somebody point me in the direction where the idea that dps should be picking up the downed from? play how you play, and make no mistake, despite using a circumstance saying otherwise, I do plenty of pick ups, but I just would like to know why this is a thing. the first cutscene of playing this game is of xune biting off more than she can chew and it's not marko running to her aid, it's celeste. why do people want sgt. knox to do the job of celeste?
Personally, I don't think anybody on your team should be getting downed, but even the best have their off-days.
The consensus your tank can't be picking people up because s/he is tanking the mobs/boss and doesn't have the time to stop and pick someone up. Your healer shouldn't be picking people up since s/he needs to focus on protecting your tank, or additionally, the person picking up the floor inspector.
Apart from the person who's downed, that leaves 2 players, who can be other tanks, other healers or other DPSers. Only one of them needs to pick up your floor inspector.
can somebody point me in the direction where the idea that dps should be picking up the downed from? play how you play, and make no mistake, despite using a circumstance saying otherwise, I do plenty of pick ups, but I just would like to know why this is a thing. the first cutscene of playing this game is of xune biting off more than she can chew and it's not marko running to her aid, it's celeste. why do people want sgt. knox to do the job of celeste?
To add to what @rjc9000 said (which elaborates nicely) it also depends on the situation. It is not an absolute refusal from the tank or healer to pickup downed players.
For instance, in MSVA, if the tank stops tanking to revive, they will need to drop their shield and expose themselves and possibly turning the boss to face the rest, alternatively, with the many sources of damage (since no one really moves the DoTs) if a DC stops their rotation in order to revive, thereby delaying AA or DG or BoH, it might cause additional players to get downed.
Referring to your Orcus example, yes, the DC has AA protecting them, but the others should have been within range of AA too (for the power share) and therefore have the protection needed to revive.
It's a situational call, but the norm should be that typically it's the dps that revive, unless the situation allows either healer or tank to do so, and they are closest... where the idea comes from I would say other mmo's I guess...
can somebody point me in the direction where the idea that dps should be picking up the downed from? play how you play, and make no mistake, despite using a circumstance saying otherwise, I do plenty of pick ups, but I just would like to know why this is a thing. the first cutscene of playing this game is of xune biting off more than she can chew and it's not marko running to her aid, it's celeste. why do people want sgt. knox to do the job of celeste?
Seriously rage, don't take gameplay tips from cutscenes, it's a matter of common sense. If your tank isn't tanking and your DC isn't doing their thing because they are picking someone up you have the potential for a party-wipe.
Losing a bit of DPS for a few seconds does not come anywhere close to the level of importance of your support people staying 100% on the job.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
one thing I forgot, concerning sva and fbi, the healing aspect pretty much is dead in my experience. good tanks dont need much healing, bad tanks and meta dps are getting one shot regardless. can't heal a corpse. it's also much more ideal for a DC to do pick ups at orcus too because of AA. orcus can grunt all he wants, but all his strength translates into wasted effort. better for me to build up into that IBS that can take a chunk off and finish him since the tank could flub at any given moment and the other dps is only doing 1/3 of what I am in most groups. groups that they aren't, it doesn't even get that far because he's dead before he hits the ceiling.
Healing is dead in this game due to players not needing to pay attention to mechanics due to AA spamming.
I was in Shores and yelled at by a 4K tank telling me that I was not doing AA enough. He never put up his shield and died on the last boss, expecting me to spam AA constantly for him to be a DPS.
Tanks not guarding is a result of players not wanting to learn game mechanics.
I beaten Orcus without a DC. How many GF players can state that? All I see in LFG when I see CN call is for Tanks or DC and my money is on if a DC player is a DO DC that player would probably be kicked from the group. My friend is a DC and a 4K tank complained when my friend could do 100% up time on AA and left the group as the tank would only taunt Orcus but after that would go all DPS on him.
Players have become way to reliant on mechanics that will change and impact game play significantly.
I'm looking forward to the changes, but with those change I believe we may see other things come up making a different personal, power or daily be stronger than it should be. Look what happened for a short while with Command Strike for GF. Player will adjust and modify their build to meet the new meta to ensure the player gets picked up for group runs.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
All I see in LFG when I see CN call is for Tanks or DC and if you are a DO DC you probably will be kicked from the group.
Then stop looking at /lfg. You pick examples that suites your narrative, I guess we all do, but the whole "Community is evil, Community is bad" getting tiresome.
Does your guild kick DO DC from CN ? Will you kick ? Can you tell me that the majority of the population is /lfg and not guilds that do not kick ? You can't prove either way, so this global claim is a conjecture at best.
My friend is a DC and a 4K tank complained when my friend could do 100% up time on AA and left the group as the tank would only taunt Orcus but after that would go all DPS on him.
Again, example... great... does it set a rule? All the tanks only taunt and try to dps? Do you ? Your signature has GF. Or you assume you are the only 'correct' one on the server?
Players have become way to reliant on mechanics that will change and impact game play significantly.
I'm looking forward to the changes, but with those change I believe we may see other things come up making a different personal stronger than it should be. Look what happened for a short while with Command Strike for GF.
You get the changes that you want, you don't even play end-game content, and you complain. I can understand many things, but endless complaints about a game is beyond me. You don't like /lfg mentality, I don't like it either, hence I have a guild, custom channel, and in several others.
You repeat about how overpowered everyone... great, but you are doing t1, t2 content with crapton of gear and boons over the requirement. And yet at the same time you complain about the game play there....
Go to MSVA / FBI / SP and lets talk. From ice management to standing on runes. And if then you have suggestions, we can gladly discuss them and not those hypothetical fears.
But until then, every single post is "how bad everyone else, and how righteous I am." And I find it hard to believe the entire console community is such. More so if I'm not wrong your guild leader posted right here in this thread and others and sounds very reasonable person to me. So please lets stop picking the trash with tweezers just to bring examples here.
PS. Some of us spent significant time to understand the game mechanics, and get the best of our class, and btw, playing longer and the same class than your console variation exists, and then comes you, who didn't ran ACT even once (nor can), and gives us this:
You get the changes that you want, you don't even play end-game content, and you complain. I can understand many things, but endless complaints about a game is beyond me. You don't like /lfg mentality, I don't like it either, hence I have a guild, custom channel, and in several others.
You repeat about how overpowered everyone... great, but you are doing t1, t2 content with crapton of gear and boons over the requirement. And yet at the same time you complain about the game play there....
Go to MSVA / FBI / SP and lets talk. From ice management to standing on runes. And if then you have suggestions, we can gladly discuss them and not those hypothetical fears.
But until then, every single post is "how bad everyone else, and how righteous I am." And I find it hard to believe the entire console community is such. More so if I'm not wrong your guild leader posted right here in this thread and others and sounds very reasonable person to me. So please lets stop picking the trash with tweezers just to bring examples here.
PS. Some of us spent significant time to understand the game mechanics, and get the best of our class, and btw, playing longer and the same class than your console variation exists, and then comes you, who didn't ran ACT even once (nor can), and gives us this:
You are absolutely right I have no idea what I am talking about.
Oh wait...
End game population in the latest content = smallest population in a MMO but are usually the biggest spenders in a MMO
MMOs have a life cycle and this game is in the 4th year. In a few years the game may get adjusted again but this time the devs adjust all class damage downward. Seen it in the past.
I have been playing MMOs for a quite a while and all games go through this. I'm just a player that rather not see this game go through the normal MMO life cycle I have seen in quite a few other mmos.
But whatever. Players want to keep high stats and make content challenging at the same time. It is hard for the devs to deliver both as the end result is mechanics won't matter as much and to combat the higher damage and stats of players enemies will just get higher health pools which really doesn't add any new challenge to the game, it just will annoy you more as you have to sit through content longer due to higher health pools.
Not sure how many MMOs you have played or how long you have played MMOs but they all seem to go through the same life cycle. Not sure if this a result of the devs trying to cater to a larger audience, the casual players and the hard core players.
Whatever happens, happens. I voice my concerns about the state of game, but you and other feel my lack of playing the latest content is why I have no idea what I'm talking about. Ok, whatever.
I do like that the devs are using data to determine their decisions with updates, but are they the right ones?
I will sit back and wait and see how the game unfolds and move forward with each update it gets. But it would not surprise me if the game gets a full revamp in 2 years adjusting all classes damage downward due to how strong every class has become.
can somebody point me in the direction where the idea that dps should be picking up the downed from? play how you play, and make no mistake, despite using a circumstance saying otherwise, I do plenty of pick ups, but I just would like to know why this is a thing. the first cutscene of playing this game is of xune biting off more than she can chew and it's not marko running to her aid, it's celeste. why do people want sgt. knox to do the job of celeste?
I picked it up from another MMO I played before. It was more difficult and anything else would have resulted in a group wipe.
Everything else is good reasoning. If the boss kills dps players: Otherwise occupied tank = dead tank = wipe. If the tank and dps need constant healing: Otherwise occupied DC = dead tank = wipe. Dps picking up dead player = less dps for the helpful player and the run takes 5 seconds more OR dps revives another player and loses points in the paingiver chart = cant happen = ignores downed teammates = team dies one after the other = wipe = dps players agree, that DC and tank were bad.
Concerning game mechanics and dps players. I did CN speedruns with a 3.5-BIS IL group on my GF using KV (some time ago, without AA DC). We used team speak. Every run began like this. I was dismounted, bc of KV hits from dps players, who engaged the mobs before I arrived. I lost ca. 50% of my HP before I engaged any mob, bc SW, CW and GWF engaged before I arrived. I died multiple times from KV. I told them, that I would deactivate KV, if they keep playing like idiots, they kept playing like idiots. I deactivated KV. We needed 5 tries to kill the first boss, bc the dps players died like flies. I never again slotted KV on my GF and I dont regret it.
Dont get me wrong, KV might be mandatory in mSVH or FBI for a GF (I unlocked it with CW and DC) and the runs might be easier for dps with KV, but OP bubble, KV and AA have one reason in common, why I dont like them. Players ignore game mechanics and incoming dmg, bc they think, that they can ignore them and whine, when they die.
TBH, I play like an idiot, too. Engaging with my CW. Swearing like a sailor, bc I died before my opressive force CCed the mobs, but I know, that it is my fault and everything but one hits is healed in seconds with BIS gear. I know the reasoning behind dps players, but I understand enough of the games mechanic, to know, when I play selfish/stupid.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
You get the changes that you want, you don't even play end-game content, and you complain. I can understand many things, but endless complaints about a game is beyond me. You don't like /lfg mentality, I don't like it either, hence I have a guild, custom channel, and in several others.
You repeat about how overpowered everyone... great, but you are doing t1, t2 content with crapton of gear and boons over the requirement. And yet at the same time you complain about the game play there....
Go to MSVA / FBI / SP and lets talk. From ice management to standing on runes. And if then you have suggestions, we can gladly discuss them and not those hypothetical fears.
But until then, every single post is "how bad everyone else, and how righteous I am." And I find it hard to believe the entire console community is such. More so if I'm not wrong your guild leader posted right here in this thread and others and sounds very reasonable person to me. So please lets stop picking the trash with tweezers just to bring examples here.
PS. Some of us spent significant time to understand the game mechanics, and get the best of our class, and btw, playing longer and the same class than your console variation exists, and then comes you, who didn't ran ACT even once (nor can), and gives us this:
You are absolutely right I have no idea what I am talking about.
Oh wait...
End game population in the latest content = smallest population in a MMO but are usually the biggest spenders in a MMO
MMOs have a life cycle and this game is in the 4th year. In a few years the game may get adjusted again but this time the devs adjust all class damage downward. Seen it in the past.
I have been playing MMOs for a quite a while and all games go through this. I'm just a player that rather not see this game go through the normal MMO life cycle I have seen in quite a few other mmos.
But whatever. Players want to keep high stats and make content challenging at the same time. It is hard for the devs to deliver both as the end result is mechanics won't matter as much and to combat the higher damage and stats of players enemies will just get higher health pools which really doesn't add any new challenge to the game, it just will annoy you more as you have to sit through content longer due to higher health pools.
Not sure how many MMOs you have played or how long you have played MMOs but they all seem to go through the same life cycle. Not sure if this a result of the devs trying to cater to a larger audience, the casual players and the hard core players.
Whatever happens, happens. I voice my concerns about the state of game, but you and other feel my lack of playing the latest content is why I have no idea what I'm talking about. Ok, whatever.
I do like that the devs are using data to determine their decisions with updates, but are they the right ones?
I will sit back and wait and see how the game unfolds and move forward with each update it gets. But it would not surprise me if the game gets a full revamp in 2 years adjusting all classes damage downward due to how strong every class has become.
And what it has to do to what you usually write or what I wrote? It's obvious that the game will get level extension to 80 or the likes at some point.
We were suggesting to bring back the DR stat function long time ago, and many other things. So ?
It is hard for the devs to deliver both as the end result is mechanics won't matter as much and to combat the higher damage and stats of players enemies will just get higher health pools which really doesn't add any new challenge to the game, it just will annoy you more as you have to sit through content longer due to higher health pools.
I knew a player long long time ago (mod3-5), was online 24/7 even beat me at online times. Constantly droning how all the dungeons are the same "kill crapton of mobs, HAMSTER devs can't do anything else... " constant droning. After half year we figured that he never ran MC nor VT, both have ADD avoidance mechanics (and at the time most couldn't just burn it down and avoid)
Yes, the devs have a hard time to appease everyone, they will always have this issue, nothing will change that. Making players weaker or mobs stronger is exactly the same effect. Having a 500k HP pool and get hit for 100k each time has no difference at all from having 50k and getting hit for 10k. (as long as everything else scaled accordingly)
But similarly to that player, you only play where you over-gear the content (and complain that it's not smooth either), but do not play the end-game where (now, post AA) game mechanics are needed. And average groups that can't follow it fail.
So what's the point of bringing those /lfg examples? Do you think if all your wishes about the game will come true the human nature will change? Someone will find some reason to kick someone else. Regardless of game state.
Again, example... great... does it set a rule? All the tanks only taunt and try to dps? Do you ? Your signature has GF. Or you assume you are the only 'correct' one on the server?
I love how his example is in esot. A 4K DPS GF can potentially one hit the boss if he uses AA but he's not going to do it because he thinks people are too dependent on the damage mitigation.
Again, example... great... does it set a rule? All the tanks only taunt and try to dps? Do you ? Your signature has GF. Or you assume you are the only 'correct' one on the server?
I love how his example is in esot. A 4K DPS GF can potentially one hit the boss if he uses AA but he's not going to do it because he thinks people are too dependent on the damage mitigation.
I beaten Orcus without a DC. How many GF players can state that?
Most of them. DC makes things faster but we've done five DPS runs at this point. CN is super easy now.
Whatever, this is the easiest MMO I played. Even after seeing the latest end game content I'm not impressed about the game's difficulty.
My thoughts are a result of that. You can state hard all you want but from what I have seen, this game doesn't even know what hard, elite, epic, or challenging is.
The hardest thing I have experienced in this game was leveling up my DC and that wasn't all that hard.
Tbh. Once you hit 4k as a dps, everything below fbi, mSVA and now I guess mSP, gets real simple - run like hell, kill everything first.There's very little to compete over in this game, and the paingiver is the last thing standing. Can this get exasperating for a DC and a Tank..? Absolutely.
In my opinion, a bad dps is not one that runs ahead, and draws all the trashmob aggro whilst blasting away, it's one who does that without building enough survivability or playing well enough, to avoid dying from the first hit. Because that's the only one that kills you. After you start dealing damage, or the rest of the party catches up, either lifesteal or healing, or the tank pulling aggro, will save your little dps behind.
It's a matter of knowing what you can safely engage solo, and what you can't. All high end dps sacrifices survival for damage, we rely on support to do their job, so we can do ours. My toon is about as glass cannon as they come, but again, 9 times out of 10, he can survive that first hit, and level all the mobs. Bosses, ok, that's the time to stand back and let the tank do their job no question, but between times... Run and gun.
Tbh. Once you hit 4k as a dps, everything below fbi, mSVA and now I guess mSP, gets real simple - run like hell, kill everything first.There's very little to compete over in this game, and the paingiver is the last thing standing. Can this get exasperating for a DC and a Tank..? Absolutely.
In my opinion, a bad dps is not one that runs ahead, and draws all the trashmob aggro whilst blasting away, it's one who does that without building enough survivability or playing well enough, to avoid dying from the first hit. Because that's the only one that kills you. After you start dealing damage, or the rest of the party catches up, either lifesteal or healing, or the tank pulling aggro, will save your little dps behind.
It's a matter of knowing what you can safely engage solo, and what you can't. All high end dps sacrifices survival for damage, we rely on support to do their job, so we can do ours. My toon is about as glass cannon as they come, but again, 9 times out of 10, he can survive that first hit, and level all the mobs. Bosses, ok, that's the time to stand back and let the tank do their job no question, but between times... Run and gun.
I have seen players do exactly that at 3.5IL.
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
DC is one class that it seems nobody can really agree with, as far as how and what they are supposed to do, meta or otherwise. you have some, like @dupeks saying they must at all times be healing, no time to pick up the fallen, must keep up AA, et cetera. other times I read this forum, I see that the actual healing aspect is dead in the water, it's all about buffs and how fast you can stack them. I can't tell you the last time I've grouped with an oracle tbh, pug or premade. maybe those 3.8k+ fbi premades consiting of 3 DC and pvp GF's are where they are hiding at.
My main is a DC, but I have never really followed the current "meta" - I'm not a healer (and haven't been since the Miracle Healer set was popular) I did not want to be an AP-generator when that was all the rage, or an AA spammer when that was "the thing". No, I have stayed a Righteous DO for quite a while, with a somewhat unusual build (very high LS, for example). It suits me fine, I breeze through any solo content, but when in a group, my buffs and debuffs can make a pretty decent difference.
My point is - if you understand your class, you can build your character any way you like - just make sure that those you play with understand what you can bring to the table.
Comments
So dont trust paingiver.
my main used to be tr mi for a while. when I first started playing it was extremely hard not to get kicked in a pug freshly popping into 2k, and I honestly don't think any class gets more hate than tr. It also really just makes me laugh at different excuses people come up with on why (x) can't do (y) unless they have (z).
right around september I was getting the boot left and right with people saying, "nah you need gwf for orcus", when I managed to get a sneak in already at the fire, because nobody would even think about taking me through the door way. I've grouped with some amazing melter tr too, but I have yet to see any requests for one in somi. as a matter of fact, a mi was in the group I was kicked from in the OP, higher ilvl than me t
I been in one run where the worst player was simply spamming kicks. He tried to kick me, my friend, and both other players. This player was simply being carried and complained in chat how long the run was taking. He did about a 1/10 of my damage and I was on my DC. I was patient, tried to explain things, mechanics, etc...player wanted a 100% carry.
Now I'm on PS4 and prior to taking an extended break, there was no carrying when I left. You worked as a group and you beat content as group. It seems that this does not happen now as much as it did previously, but back when I left at that point many of us were new to NW and had a lower IL than I do now. In fact, 90% of the groups I ran with, I had the highest IL by over 300 points if not more.
Move forward to now, on average in every run I see at least one if not two players who are over 3100 IL and every 5th run I run into a player who is 4K+ IL. I'm not stating IL = skill or that the high IL character will make content easier, as I can vouch that IL does not equal skill or ability to complete content. What it does is usually results in players not learning mechanics and working as a team to get content done.
Lately in many of my T1 dungeons runs the lower IL players expect a carry. It is quite frustrating to be with a group of players who are under 3K to not play to their full ability simply because a 3K+ character is in the group. It seems as if these players simply want a carry and are not pulling their weight. Try to explain mechanics, and next thing I know I'm kicked.
I personally don't think that way. And if the group gets stuck I try to explain mechanics. Sometimes it works, other times when someone simply wants a carry I get kicked. The thing that gets me though is, I get kicked as the tank or healer and when I get kicked it is really not my lose as I know the reason for the failure, the DPS players are not paying attention to mechanics and is causing the group to fail. Hard to beat the last boss in Malborg alone when all other players died and I end up getting choked by Valindra or in VT, same thing. One player even said to me on my DC I should improve my DPS. I'm like whatever, I'm a buffer/debuffer and healer, I'm not a DPS.
Mechanics matter IMO more than any build, gear, etc...
Players wanting specific sets, simply want content to be easier and are using FotM gear and probably class as well. To each their own.
No Meta for me
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I think people who take the attitude of "everyone but me is toxic"... are actually rather toxic.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
DC is one class that it seems nobody can really agree with, as far as how and what they are supposed to do, meta or otherwise. you have some, like @dupeks saying they must at all times be healing, no time to pick up the fallen, must keep up AA, et cetera. other times I read this forum, I see that the actual healing aspect is dead in the water, it's all about buffs and how fast you can stack them. I can't tell you the last time I've grouped with an oracle tbh, pug or premade. maybe those 3.8k+ fbi premades consiting of 3 DC and pvp GF's are where they are hiding at.
in my experience playing gwf, the meta for the dps is being strung along by the meta of the tanks/heals due to the way AA works and because the dual pve/pvp built tanks run out of stamina too quickly and have short attention spans. we're simply expected to kill as fast as possible because the cheese is so potent. who cares how much survivability a dps has, or their actual skill concerning mechanics. it's like the silent dictatorship you have to encounter to really know about. note that I'm not saying every player of these classes is like that, I've met some awesome and great players of every class, also very humble and respectful, even around the clearly noob players that wind up pugged with us. keeping in mind that the exception is not the rule, what I generally have had to deal with is being expected to be #1 paingiver, since I'm a gwf, aka, "FAT dps, top deeps".
Let me have been #2 or #3 in a group with any other dps class, here comes that silent vote kick initiated by whom I wonder, which was rare because I'm almost always #1, not bragging or boasting. that's more along the lines of the mid 2k pugging though. 3k players are slightly more understanding of the mechanics and know it can easily sway to first come first serve strikes. an easy and common example, cn pugs. nobody likes that gwf sprinting ahead, but nobody has a problem with the cw or hr starting their spell mastery icy tornado or arrow rain encounters. daring shout doesn't even generate threat, but these things can make or break who is in 1st place when equally or outgeared. I have to build up my dps before I can really start clearing the room you know, or I will be left stinking; absolutely no room for lethargy. generally not a problem, but among the bigger, broader guilds and alliances, you'll start getting a bad name and people will skip over you.
maybe I should just join their guild then so they can invite me just for association right? I wouldn't even want to join a guild that operates that way. especially one that invites scrubs that just want to be carried through content until they are geared up to cheese with the rest of the guild, then try to dictate the meta because hey, they ran a perfect msva lol. I just don't support that mentality, sorry about the rant, not trying to flame. I do suspect alot of DC's and dps will be exposed come april 11th, sort of like old bubble pallys.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
1- With regards to @dupeks comment, it stands true. A tank or healer should not focus on reviving, but instead on performing their role. The tank should not lose aggro, and the healer should ensure the rest of the team stays alive. Now in NW, healers are not needed, with the exception maybe of lower ilvl teams who might require it. The case remains however that a DC needs to perform their role.
2- As a DC the meta is to spam AA... most players have no clue why the AA spam is really important. At least they only understand half of it... the damage mitigation. The other and more important half is the power share. As detailed previously in the thread, a player with R12 bondings and a legendary companion receives 3x the power share from a DC. For simplicity, let's say 3x DC base power.
So many DC's I see around who stack very high on Recovery, and forgo the power (which is shareable). But no one cares or understands that... so all they ask is for you to spam AA... not to repeat much of what 2 separate threads addressed about it, but we're basically asked to focus and spam AA in order for everyone else not to worry about mechanics.
For a support class, it does get irritating, when you are expected to work so others don't. It's not even a request of this will go faster the more power you got, so be sure to spam it.
3- There will always be a meta, and it will always be annoying for those of us who know our classes. I myself have gotten to 3.9K, still rocking R11 bondings (they don't share so whatever) and have followed the "BiS" build for PvE.. (Jarek's build basically) mostly because I got the items cheap or as drops. And yet it annoys me when I see a team disregard mechanics...
To finally talk about MSVA, rarely have I encountered a player that actually understands that AA mitigation disappear after a couple of hits (4 hits), and the more red circle DoTs they drop, the faster it disappears. Guess who gets blamed if someone dies?
But that is the nature of MMOs, the few players with skill and patience and most importantly generosity, will figure out the best builds and share them with the community, and the masses will flock to them without any real understanding...
There are always exceptions, people who follow the meta, but are fully aware of why it matters, and tend to understand how to judge others without elitism.... if only such people were the meta...
The consensus your tank can't be picking people up because s/he is tanking the mobs/boss and doesn't have the time to stop and pick someone up. Your healer shouldn't be picking people up since s/he needs to focus on protecting your tank, or additionally, the person picking up the floor inspector.
Apart from the person who's downed, that leaves 2 players, who can be other tanks, other healers or other DPSers. Only one of them needs to pick up your floor inspector.
For instance, in MSVA, if the tank stops tanking to revive, they will need to drop their shield and expose themselves and possibly turning the boss to face the rest, alternatively, with the many sources of damage (since no one really moves the DoTs) if a DC stops their rotation in order to revive, thereby delaying AA or DG or BoH, it might cause additional players to get downed.
Referring to your Orcus example, yes, the DC has AA protecting them, but the others should have been within range of AA too (for the power share) and therefore have the protection needed to revive.
It's a situational call, but the norm should be that typically it's the dps that revive, unless the situation allows either healer or tank to do so, and they are closest... where the idea comes from I would say other mmo's I guess...
Losing a bit of DPS for a few seconds does not come anywhere close to the level of importance of your support people staying 100% on the job.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I was in Shores and yelled at by a 4K tank telling me that I was not doing AA enough. He never put up his shield and died on the last boss, expecting me to spam AA constantly for him to be a DPS.
Tanks not guarding is a result of players not wanting to learn game mechanics.
I beaten Orcus without a DC. How many GF players can state that? All I see in LFG when I see CN call is for Tanks or DC and my money is on if a DC player is a DO DC that player would probably be kicked from the group. My friend is a DC and a 4K tank complained when my friend could do 100% up time on AA and left the group as the tank would only taunt Orcus but after that would go all DPS on him.
Players have become way to reliant on mechanics that will change and impact game play significantly.
I'm looking forward to the changes, but with those change I believe we may see other things come up making a different personal, power or daily be stronger than it should be. Look what happened for a short while with Command Strike for GF. Player will adjust and modify their build to meet the new meta to ensure the player gets picked up for group runs.
Does your guild kick DO DC from CN ? Will you kick ? Can you tell me that the majority of the population is /lfg and not guilds that do not kick ? You can't prove either way, so this global claim is a conjecture at best. Again, example... great... does it set a rule? All the tanks only taunt and try to dps? Do you ? Your signature has GF. Or you assume you are the only 'correct' one on the server?
You get the changes that you want, you don't even play end-game content, and you complain. I can understand many things, but endless complaints about a game is beyond me. You don't like /lfg mentality, I don't like it either, hence I have a guild, custom channel, and in several others.
You repeat about how overpowered everyone... great, but you are doing t1, t2 content with crapton of gear and boons over the requirement. And yet at the same time you complain about the game play there....
Go to MSVA / FBI / SP and lets talk. From ice management to standing on runes. And if then you have suggestions, we can gladly discuss them and not those hypothetical fears.
But until then, every single post is "how bad everyone else, and how righteous I am." And I find it hard to believe the entire console community is such.
More so if I'm not wrong your guild leader posted right here in this thread and others and sounds very reasonable person to me.
So please lets stop picking the trash with tweezers just to bring examples here.
PS. Some of us spent significant time to understand the game mechanics, and get the best of our class, and btw, playing longer and the same class than your console variation exists, and then comes you, who didn't ran ACT even once (nor can), and gives us this: Who are you to presume ?
Oh wait...
End game population in the latest content = smallest population in a MMO but are usually the biggest spenders in a MMO
MMOs have a life cycle and this game is in the 4th year. In a few years the game may get adjusted again but this time the devs adjust all class damage downward. Seen it in the past.
I have been playing MMOs for a quite a while and all games go through this. I'm just a player that rather not see this game go through the normal MMO life cycle I have seen in quite a few other mmos.
But whatever. Players want to keep high stats and make content challenging at the same time. It is hard for the devs to deliver both as the end result is mechanics won't matter as much and to combat the higher damage and stats of players enemies will just get higher health pools which really doesn't add any new challenge to the game, it just will annoy you more as you have to sit through content longer due to higher health pools.
Not sure how many MMOs you have played or how long you have played MMOs but they all seem to go through the same life cycle. Not sure if this a result of the devs trying to cater to a larger audience, the casual players and the hard core players.
Whatever happens, happens. I voice my concerns about the state of game, but you and other feel my lack of playing the latest content is why I have no idea what I'm talking about. Ok, whatever.
I do like that the devs are using data to determine their decisions with updates, but are they the right ones?
I will sit back and wait and see how the game unfolds and move forward with each update it gets. But it would not surprise me if the game gets a full revamp in 2 years adjusting all classes damage downward due to how strong every class has become.
Everything else is good reasoning. If the boss kills dps players: Otherwise occupied tank = dead tank = wipe. If the tank and dps need constant healing: Otherwise occupied DC = dead tank = wipe. Dps picking up dead player = less dps for the helpful player and the run takes 5 seconds more OR dps revives another player and loses points in the paingiver chart = cant happen = ignores downed teammates = team dies one after the other = wipe = dps players agree, that DC and tank were bad.
Concerning game mechanics and dps players. I did CN speedruns with a 3.5-BIS IL group on my GF using KV (some time ago, without AA DC). We used team speak. Every run began like this. I was dismounted, bc of KV hits from dps players, who engaged the mobs before I arrived. I lost ca. 50% of my HP before I engaged any mob, bc SW, CW and GWF engaged before I arrived. I died multiple times from KV. I told them, that I would deactivate KV, if they keep playing like idiots, they kept playing like idiots. I deactivated KV. We needed 5 tries to kill the first boss, bc the dps players died like flies. I never again slotted KV on my GF and I dont regret it.
Dont get me wrong, KV might be mandatory in mSVH or FBI for a GF (I unlocked it with CW and DC) and the runs might be easier for dps with KV, but OP bubble, KV and AA have one reason in common, why I dont like them. Players ignore game mechanics and incoming dmg, bc they think, that they can ignore them and whine, when they die.
TBH, I play like an idiot, too. Engaging with my CW. Swearing like a sailor, bc I died before my opressive force CCed the mobs, but I know, that it is my fault and everything but one hits is healed in seconds with BIS gear. I know the reasoning behind dps players, but I understand enough of the games mechanic, to know, when I play selfish/stupid.
We were suggesting to bring back the DR stat function long time ago, and many other things. So ?
For example, over a year ago (and I was wrong there about the ratio, but that besides the point)
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12778792
Most of what you say is not voicing concern, those parts that you didn't quote of my post, that I've quoted from you are not concerns. I knew a player long long time ago (mod3-5), was online 24/7 even beat me at online times. Constantly droning how all the dungeons are the same "kill crapton of mobs, HAMSTER devs can't do anything else... " constant droning. After half year we figured that he never ran MC nor VT, both have ADD avoidance mechanics (and at the time most couldn't just burn it down and avoid)
Yes, the devs have a hard time to appease everyone, they will always have this issue, nothing will change that. Making players weaker or mobs stronger is exactly the same effect. Having a 500k HP pool and get hit for 100k each time has no difference at all from having 50k and getting hit for 10k. (as long as everything else scaled accordingly)
But similarly to that player, you only play where you over-gear the content (and complain that it's not smooth either), but do not play the end-game where (now, post AA) game mechanics are needed. And average groups that can't follow it fail.
So what's the point of bringing those /lfg examples? Do you think if all your wishes about the game will come true the human nature will change? Someone will find some reason to kick someone else. Regardless of game state.
Whatever, this is the easiest MMO I played. Even after seeing the latest end game content I'm not impressed about the game's difficulty.
My thoughts are a result of that. You can state hard all you want but from what I have seen, this game doesn't even know what hard, elite, epic, or challenging is.
The hardest thing I have experienced in this game was leveling up my DC and that wasn't all that hard.
Tbh. Once you hit 4k as a dps, everything below fbi, mSVA and now I guess mSP, gets real simple - run like hell, kill everything first.There's very little to compete over in this game, and the paingiver is the last thing standing. Can this get exasperating for a DC and a Tank..? Absolutely.
In my opinion, a bad dps is not one that runs ahead, and draws all the trashmob aggro whilst blasting away, it's one who does that without building enough survivability or playing well enough, to avoid dying from the first hit. Because that's the only one that kills you. After you start dealing damage, or the rest of the party catches up, either lifesteal or healing, or the tank pulling aggro, will save your little dps behind.
It's a matter of knowing what you can safely engage solo, and what you can't. All high end dps sacrifices survival for damage, we rely on support to do their job, so we can do ours. My toon is about as glass cannon as they come, but again, 9 times out of 10, he can survive that first hit, and level all the mobs. Bosses, ok, that's the time to stand back and let the tank do their job no question, but between times... Run and gun.
My point is - if you understand your class, you can build your character any way you like - just make sure that those you play with understand what you can bring to the table.