Great Guardian Fighter Becomes a Problem

isaintify1

Now I do not play either class currently (used to play GWF in the long past), and Ive noticed that GFs are doing way more damage than they should be. I do not mean to be "that guy" but I think the GF needs a nerf to its damage. Now I know I will offend most of the GFs with this post, but people who do have common sense will hopefully understand where I am coming from. GFs are meant to play their role and their class the way they are supposed to. Now having some damage is fine, because I know that playing with low damage can be tedious. As I play a heal paladin which has the lowest damage out of any character and spec. Guardians should not being pulling off the same damage as Great Weapon Fighters, Control Wizards, etc.
Now normally I say more power to you for being able to do a lot of dps, but when it starts to turn out that 90% of the GFs are now running similar builds and are glass cannons it starts to affect dungeon parties. This is where I am starting to have issues with the DPS GFs. I have to end up tanking on my paladin because the GFs are all getting one shot by a boss. For example last night I ran a CN last night and the DPS was a bit low, but we had a decent GF who was 2nd the whole time on the board. Got to Orcus and he could not survive even one punch. He eventually left, and another GF came in. Another glass cannon who got wiped, and this process repeated 7 times before we got a true GF who could survive at least one punch. This is enough for me to buff and keep him alive, and finish the dungeon. But as you can see GFs are all trying to become the same as a GWF. If you are a GF and want to do damage just play a GWF because we need real tanks who can actually do something useful with themselves.

Now I ask and appreciate if I do not get a bunch of angry people who are offended by this post and will "attack" me instead of actually discussing.

dupeks

This is only a problem if you are pug Qing (and consequently often QQing as well haha).

I don't think the answer is to remove build variety and impose penalties on those who are creatively using the class mechanics in this game.

I think that one good idea that solves this would be to allow folks to select their role for the queue system. If I want to play a DPS GF I should be counted as a DPS rather than a tank in the party matching system.

Unknown

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isaintify1

dupeks said:

This is only a problem if you are pug Qing (and consequently often QQing as well haha).

I don't think the answer is to remove build variety and impose penalties on those who are creatively using the class mechanics in this game.

I think that one good idea that solves this would be to allow folks to select their role for the queue system. If I want to play a DPS GF I should be counted as a DPS rather than a tank in the party matching system.

See you just straight up assume
pug" groups, but its still the fact that most GFs are going for the same dps build and decreasing all their tanking capabilities.

crizpynutz

I have been posting about build diversity for far too long to agree with this post - though it's not like it upsets me you say this. IMO, the issue is with bad players not bad GF class. I played a tact buffer GF until around 3k ilvl at which time I switched to SM Conq, DPS spec. The only place I struggle with tanking is FBI and if I have a kick butt DC then it's okay there too. Orcus is not an issue (other than a timely green ball placement.) These GF's simply don't understand how to play the build appropriately. If they put on Shield Talent and Steel Defense, Orcus wouldn't give them any more issues than he gives other builds. I would rather see other classes get the same build diversity GF's have than nerf one of the few classes that actually have it. I also agree with defiant, it would be nice if you could pick your role instead of stating that "oh your a GF, you play tank" and that's it. If every class has one role, why bother with 3 feat paths and 2 paragons?

isaintify1

defiantone99 said:

A tank is not supposed to be a DPS class, but it is what it is. I am still waiting for my GWF to be able to play healer. But, you are running into bad GFs. A good GF can DPS, tank, AND never die.

Yes but tell me if I am wrong that that GF that you are refering to is normally high end spectrum. Most of the GFs you see are low end ilvls that are looking for builds and this is what they find instead of a tanking build. Inturn this means there is no way they can tank bosses.

isaintify1

crizpynutz said:

I have been posting about build diversity for far too long to agree with this post - though it's not like it upsets me you say this. IMO, the issue is with bad players not bad GF class. I played a tact buffer GF until around 3k ilvl at which time I switched to SM Conq, DPS spec. The only place I struggle with tanking is FBI and if I have a kick butt DC then it's okay there too. Orcus is not an issue (other than a timely green ball placement.) These GF's simply don't understand how to play the build appropriately. If they put on Shield Talent and Steel Defense, Orcus wouldn't give them any more issues than he gives other builds. I would rather see other classes get the same build diversity GF's have than nerf one of the few classes that actually have it. I also agree with defiant, it would be nice if you could pick your role instead of stating that "oh your a GF, you play tank" and that's it. If every class has one role, why bother with 3 feat paths and 2 paragons?

Yes and you are right but as ive said before its the newbies who look up builds and guides that get screwed over because they find a dps build. This can be frustrating for both the newbie GF and a dungeon party group.

lazaroth666

isaintify1 said:

its the newbies who look up builds and guides that get screwed over because they find a dps build. This can be frustrating for both the newbie GF and a dungeon party group.

The player that posted the guide should also mention that the pros/cons of playing that build and advice that it should be played as Tank first and then evolve towards DPS/Buffer as their ilvl is increasing so they do not expect to be both tank and dps at very low ilvl.

Now, regarding to the fact that the GF is a damage dealer. We really need more diversity in Neverwinter. Take a look to the GWF, you can only play as Destroyer, playing as Sentinel/Instigator is extremely disappointing. The GF can be full tank or hybrid tank/buffer and tank/dps, this is great and there should be different roles for every other class. Maybe one day the devs will finally fix Sentinel and that would be the beginning of another tanking style. It is not supposed to be better than a GF or an OP tanking, just a different style or way to do the same, like it is right now to deal damage with sword and board instead of a two-handed sword, different styles but same result.

dupeks

isaintify1 said:

dupeks said:

This is only a problem if you are pug Qing (and consequently often QQing as well haha).

I don't think the answer is to remove build variety and impose penalties on those who are creatively using the class mechanics in this game.

I think that one good idea that solves this would be to allow folks to select their role for the queue system. If I want to play a DPS GF I should be counted as a DPS rather than a tank in the party matching system.

See you just straight up assume
pug" groups, but its still the fact that most GFs are going for the same dps build and decreasing all their tanking capabilities.

I assumed Pug, because if you are building a group in LFG/Alliance/Channels, you ask for a "tank" and usually folks who are dps spec won't answer that call regardless of their class. Possibly in PE Zone, but hopefully not in Alliance / Channels.

Then again, I just plain disagree with the sentiment that GFs are meant to only be tanks. I want a larger variety of creative builds, not less variety and being forced into very narrow roles based on class. If a bunch of people want to play dps GFs, I'm all for it as long as they don't advertise themselves as tanks.

Unknown

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isaintify1

lazaroth666 said:

isaintify1 said:

its the newbies who look up builds and guides that get screwed over because they find a dps build. This can be frustrating for both the newbie GF and a dungeon party group.

The player that posted the guide should also mention that the pros/cons of playing that build and advice that it should be played as Tank first and then evolve towards DPS/Buffer as their ilvl is increasing so they do not expect to be both tank and dps at very low ilvl.

Now, regarding to the fact that the GF is a damage dealer. We really need more diversity in Neverwinter. Take a look to the GWF, you can only play as Destroyer, playing as Sentinel/Instigator is extremely disappointing. The GF can be full tank or hybrid tank/buffer and tank/dps, this is great and there should be different roles for every other class. Maybe one day the devs will finally fix Sentinel and that would be the beginning of another tanking style. It is not supposed to be better than a GF or an OP tanking, just a different style or way to do the same, like it is right now to deal damage with sword and board instead of a two-handed sword, different styles but same result.

Yes and I agree with you but the fact that in the game you cannot deny the fact that everyone is dps hungry and everyone is building the GF in the same way. The fact you also mentioned about the wide variety of GFs "possibilities" and how we only currently see is mainly dps only proves my point further.

dupeks

isaintify1 said:

you cannot deny the fact that everyone is dps hungry and everyone is building the GF in the same way. The fact you also mentioned about the wide variety of GFs "possibilities" and how we only currently see is mainly dps only proves my point further.

I respectfully disagree. There are more tank or buffer GFs on my FL than there are dps GFs. In many runs, I see tank / buffer hybrids or tank / dps hybrids.

So maybe there is an uptick, but it's not "everyone" by a long shot.

defiantone99 said:

They should make all classes tanks. That is the solution. I am sure we all would love a shield. Or, Conq GF should have to give up the shield.

I think that GWFs should have a viable sentinel/instigator path where they are effective tanks. OPs should have better variety too so that not everyone is forced into Justice.

Not everyone should have a shield, but there should be different classes with unique, interesting, and viable tank builds. Increase the number of viable builds, don't decrease them.

That said, it's easier to remove options than to create new ones. So who knows, maybe you'll get your way and the game will lose out on creative variety.

isaintify1

dupeks said:

isaintify1 said:

you cannot deny the fact that everyone is dps hungry and everyone is building the GF in the same way. The fact you also mentioned about the wide variety of GFs "possibilities" and how we only currently see is mainly dps only proves my point further.

I respectfully disagree. There are more tank or buffer GFs on my FL than there are dps GFs. In many runs, I see tank / buffer hybrids or tank / dps hybrids.

So maybe there is an uptick, but it's not "everyone" by a long shot.

defiantone99 said:

They should make all classes tanks. That is the solution. I am sure we all would love a shield. Or, Conq GF should have to give up the shield.

I think that GWFs should have a viable sentinel/instigator path where they are effective tanks. OPs should have better variety too so that not everyone is forced into Justice.

Not everyone should have a shield, but there should be different classes with unique, interesting, and viable tank builds. Increase the number of viable builds, don't decrease them.

That said, it's easier to remove options than to create new ones. So who knows, maybe you'll get your way and the game will lose out on creative variety.

When I say everyone I do not actually mean every single person in the entire game, but i've noticed a very large increase in the number of GFs wanting to only do dps

brick

I think it's ridiculous that we have 2 fighter classes in the game. For the game to be based on d&d,which prides itself on individuality and customization, this game is very restrictive on how you build your character.

boromir

This problem is coming from a place where most toon types can take damage i.e. the dps. Add in a DC and the question becomes....can I just add to the damage, rather than tank? Because no one is dying or taking substantial damage. So dps and dps hybrids GF's start to become more and more common.

Even low geared "squishy" GF's are doing decent damage because of one skill....commander's strike. That encounter in and of itself is more of the culprit than peoples' builds IMO. Tell me you've not seen big numbers after a CS when a GWF hits a crit IBS.

Orcus fights: not having your shield up when he hits is a sure fire way to lose most of your hp if not one shot you. So it's their rotation and not their build. If I'm wrong, then I want to see a video of a GF, not under steel defense protection immunity, take 2 or 3 hits with shield down.....and not die.....with only one D.C. in the group.

FBI is another story. Actually it's not. Regardless of your build: conquerer, protector or tactician it's more about your companion. You've gotta drop that con artist for a dancing shield or similar 'tanky' summoned companion.

kallephi

isaintify1 said:

Now I do not play either class currently (used to play GWF in the long past), and Ive noticed that GFs are doing way more damage than they should be. I do not mean to be "that guy" but I think the GF needs a nerf to its damage. Now I know I will offend most of the GFs with this post, but people who do have common sense will hopefully understand where I am coming from. GFs are meant to play their role and their class the way they are supposed to. Now having some damage is fine, because I know that playing with low damage can be tedious. As I play a heal paladin which has the lowest damage out of any character and spec. Guardians should not being pulling off the same damage as Great Weapon Fighters, Control Wizards, etc.
Now normally I say more power to you for being able to do a lot of dps, but when it starts to turn out that 90% of the GFs are now running similar builds and are glass cannons it starts to affect dungeon parties. This is where I am starting to have issues with the DPS GFs. I have to end up tanking on my paladin because the GFs are all getting one shot by a boss. For example last night I ran a CN last night and the DPS was a bit low, but we had a decent GF who was 2nd the whole time on the board. Got to Orcus and he could not survive even one punch. He eventually left, and another GF came in. Another glass cannon who got wiped, and this process repeated 7 times before we got a true GF who could survive at least one punch. This is enough for me to buff and keep him alive, and finish the dungeon. But as you can see GFs are all trying to become the same as a GWF. If you are a GF and want to do damage just play a GWF because we need real tanks who can actually do something useful with themselves.

Now I ask and appreciate if I do not get a bunch of angry people who are offended by this post and will "attack" me instead of actually discussing.

There's no such thing as "True GF". I'm from GF class and I can take any role I want based on game mechanisms and I'll still be a GF. There's the temptation build for warlocks. They can't do damage like a fury SW, so they are not warlocks?
No, I won't play a gwf because I hate gwf class, in my opinion it's boring as hell and I agree with this guy I quoted below that's no sense to have 2 fighter classes in this game. When I started playing I was like "wtf, 2 fighter classes?"

I'm a hdps GF and I'm not angry with your post, but the game offers some variety for some classes..not for GWF as mentioned, it's Swordmaster Destroyer and that's it. For SW Damnation is decent, but it's a bit weaker than Fury. But thanks God, Odin, Satan, Apollo or whoever, some classes can choose between different builds and bored people like to try new things.

Your problem is running with bad players who claim themselves to be tanks.
Whenever I look for edemo, tiamat, cn, etos or whatever, I always say "HDPS GF LF", and by that I mean I'm not a tank, but a dps. Some people still invite me as a tank, but I warned them.
Sometimes I get tells "hey, let's do msva/fbi/edemo?" And my answer is always "You know I'm not a tank, right?"
I consider myself a hdps with minor buffs and debuffs (ITF and Crushing Pin).
I can tank etos, esot, KR, etc, even without a dc, but I never join a LFG party claiming I'm a tank.

I have 0 defensive stats and I ran CN once with a 2.4k party, when it came to Orcus I had to switch to Steel Defense, Iron Warrior (I love that skill) and keep blocking almost all the time, Knee Breaker and the other dps did the job.

You can see 327 GFs running dps builds on public queue or LFG, and they will outdps bad or weak players if they are good or have more stats (like having bondings rank 12 while the others have no bondings). But a really hdps GF will outdps the weak and bad players by double, triple, quadruple damage anyway.
A HDPS GF "vs." a HDPS SW/CW will do damage close to each other.
But that's a completely dps focused GF, not a tank. BY that I mean offensive companions, offensive rings, offensive enchants.
A Conqueror GF using a Defender Companion will never do the same damage as the hdps people I know.

I've seen a couple of mixed (hybrid) conqueror GFs, they do decent (not high, only decent) damage on FBI and they still can tank, so again, your problem is clearly with bad players. A totally dps focused GF can't tank FBI without AA spamming. A hybrid gf can't do the same dps as a hdps toon from other class if they have the same skills and gear. And a tank GF can't do high damage.

brick#6890 said:

I think it's ridiculous that we have 2 fighter classes in the game. For the game to be based on d&d,which prides itself on individuality and customization, this game is very restrictive on how you build your character.

I agree!!!

boromir#3940 said:

This problem is coming from a place where most toon types can take damage i.e. the dps. Add in a DC and the question becomes....can I just add to the damage, rather than tank? Because no one is dying or taking substantial damage. So dps and dps hybrids GF's start to become more and more common.



Even low geared "squishy" GF's are doing decent damage because of one skill....commander's strike. That encounter in and of itself is more of the culprit than peoples' builds IMO. Tell me you've not seen big numbers after a CS when a GWF hits a crit IBS.



Orcus fights: not having your shield up when he hits is a sure fire way to lose most of your hp if not one shot you. So it's their rotation and not their build. If I'm wrong, then I want to see a video of a GF, not under steel defense protection immunity, take 2 or 3 hits with shield down.....and not die.....with only one D.C. in the group.



FBI is another story. Actually it's not. Regardless of your build: conquerer, protector or tactician it's more about your companion. You've gotta drop that con artist for a dancing shield or similar 'tanky' summoned companion.

A HDPS GF doesn't use Commander Strike.

cilginordek

Tanking Orcus isn't about your tanks build, its about his timing.

urabask

cilginordek said:

Tanking Orcus isn't about your tanks build, its about his timing.

You still at least need enough DR and HP that you're not getting one hit through your guard.

isaintify1 said:

dupeks said:

isaintify1 said:

you cannot deny the fact that everyone is dps hungry and everyone is building the GF in the same way. The fact you also mentioned about the wide variety of GFs "possibilities" and how we only currently see is mainly dps only proves my point further.

I respectfully disagree. There are more tank or buffer GFs on my FL than there are dps GFs. In many runs, I see tank / buffer hybrids or tank / dps hybrids.

So maybe there is an uptick, but it's not "everyone" by a long shot.

defiantone99 said:

They should make all classes tanks. That is the solution. I am sure we all would love a shield. Or, Conq GF should have to give up the shield.

I think that GWFs should have a viable sentinel/instigator path where they are effective tanks. OPs should have better variety too so that not everyone is forced into Justice.

Not everyone should have a shield, but there should be different classes with unique, interesting, and viable tank builds. Increase the number of viable builds, don't decrease them.

That said, it's easier to remove options than to create new ones. So who knows, maybe you'll get your way and the game will lose out on creative variety.

When I say everyone I do not actually mean every single person in the entire game, but i've noticed a very large increase in the number of GFs wanting to only do dps

There aren't even enough GFs in game for this to be a thing. I don't know why people are pretending it's the major problem when there are by far more tanks that are trying to build to tank and still don't know what they're doing. I guarantee there are more GFs that aren't even at the RI cap than your mythical horde of DPS GFs. The only people I can see pushing this as a problem are butthurt PvP players that want to ruin PVE for everyone else again.

kallephi

mythical horde of DPS GFs.

I laughed hard

rjc9000

urabask said:

... I guarantee there are more GFs that aren't even at the RI cap than your mythical horde of DPS GFs.

Ah yes, "DPS GFs". The immortal race of high damage GFs allegedly waiting in LFG channels.

We have dismissed that claim.

okayI'msorry2muchwaitingforthenextmasseffect

cilginordek

urabask said:

You still at least need enough DR and HP that you're not getting one hit through your guard.

Build makes minimal difference on that aspect.

dread4moor

I respectfully disagree with OP's assumptions and conclusions.
Most GFs do not use DPS builds.
I have 3 1/2yrs NW GF experience. Most of us are NOT DPS conqs. That is unsubstantiated hyperbole.
Those that do? More power to them. So long as they declare themselves as a DPS slot if they don't plan on tanking, good on them.
Diversity of tanking is good for the game.
Do we need another game imbalancing nerf just because you dislike the existence of tank diversity? Nope.
Advice for the OP:
1) Do not PUG.
2) Before teaming up in LFG declare your expectations clearly. "GFs must tank" if that is your demand.
3) You don't like playing with a GF who does DPS? Fine. Say so in advance.
4) Refuse to group with all Conqs.
5) Refuse to group with any GF who hints at the ability to DPS.
Problem solved. Good luck with that.

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kallephi

dolrey said:

I think that GF's damage isn't so op if we talking only about it. BUT GF has shield that can't be taken down by incoming damage as it was in early modules what means that you can't kill GF in 1v1 now while GF can do this.

So, i think that GF's tanking should be reworked and that is why I had been writing many threads about it to suggest some ideas about some of GF's skills. If GF's tanking will be limited then you will have abilities to counter GF's damage using your damage.

He was clearly talking about PVE.
You can't ruin a PVE build because of PVP

jaime4312

kallephi#0836 said:

dolrey said:

I think that GF's damage isn't so op if we talking only about it. BUT GF has shield that can't be taken down by incoming damage as it was in early modules what means that you can't kill GF in 1v1 now while GF can do this.

So, i think that GF's tanking should be reworked and that is why I had been writing many threads about it to suggest some ideas about some of GF's skills. If GF's tanking will be limited then you will have abilities to counter GF's damage using your damage.

He was clearly talking about PVE.
You can't ruin a PVE build because of PVP

@kallephi#0836 I suggest you not to bother with him, he has suggested and insane amount of nerfs for the GF, be it pvp, pve, etc as long as it's about the guardian fighter he wants it turned into nothingness.

And yeah the "mythic horde of dps gfs" made me laugh too

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kallephi

defiantone99 said:

We all know that having DPS and a shield is absurd. You have to have trade-offs.

A lot of games has or had sword and board dps builds. I played as a Prot Warrior PVP on WoW on Wrath of the Lich King (idk if there's still a sword and board dps build for PVP, but there was in the past) and I smashed things. I always played as sword and board dps builds on Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Elder Scrolls Online also has sword and board dps builds.
If you go to google and type "Game XYZ sword and board dps build" you gonna find a lot of games that have or had (in the past) sword and board dps build.
Even on D&D pen and paper 3.5 you could get feats to shield bash and make your shield a off-hand weapon while getting its bonus to AC, and on 5th edition you can deal nice damage if you get the class ability that gives you +2 damage if you wield a one-handed weapon. I DM a 5th edition game and one of the players is a sword and board fighter with high AC and HP that can deal high amount of damage.

The truth is, the majority of people complaining about dps GF is someone either butthurt because of PVP or because they lost paingiver. People need to learn how to lose sometimes.

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kallephi

defiantone99 said:

No, a tank is a tank, you can't be special cupcakes when other classes have to make trade-offs between DPS and survivability. The devs will fix it eventually.

A tank is a tank. Very smart answer. Go check the games I mentioned. Or type on google. You gonna find more than 20 games with sword and board dps builds. Wait, but they are wrong because defiantone99 thinks a tank is a tank.
Even the creators of Dungeons and Dragons are wrong to make sword and board dps builds available on D&D pen and paper games, you are right, I agree!

And just one more thing. I don't have any survivability on my GF because she's totally dps focused. Giants on FBI kill me even when I'm blocking. My survivability is HAMSTER as hell and if I waste my time blocking I'm losing dps, a dps is meant to dps not to block. So don't say what you don't know.

hypervoreian

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Fighter

"4th edition

...Fighters do more single-target damage than any other class in the game that isn't a "Striker" (and in some cases can out-damage strikers, especially if they get a lot of opportunity attacks). "

-----------------

this for all the WoW clinches I hear about tanks and MIRVS and ICBMs...in DnD universe a fighter is a Fighter..that does and fits a lot of roles...

Doing heavy single damage Guardian Fighters are canon,true to DnD design.

Being as "tanks" (M-48? leopard-2?) some people think Gfs would be,is not cannon.Meaning a minimal damage, high hp turtle.

Cause guys if you want the Gf to do 3x less damage than you ,then Gf must have 3x the defense and the 3x hitpoints.
I think you would not like that...
Not to mention the overwhelming defense mechanisms some DPS classes have in NW...Cw with a Shield... dodge that provides 1 sec of damage immunity...ITC for TRs...unstoppable...etc etc...

You cannot have and the whole pie and the dog well fed.you cannot have DPS classes with a gazzilion ways to mitigate damage ,yet "tanks" to not have damage..

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