Great Guardian Fighter Becomes a Problem

kallephi

schietindebux said:

kallephi#0836 said:

I can't tank FBI and MSVA with 12k defense and 2k deflect.

12k defence? Sry, but that´s by sure a question of 3x12 Azures (loyal avenger) and one SH boon
8k defense + 3 x 2100 = 14.300 defense using 3x12 bondings+legendary companion
Missed this discussion, but anyway I go for the tankrole and that´s what most player do because a tank is asked for.
Nevertheless, nothing melts faster using ITF+KC+GW.
If on xbox and PS4 lot´s of low level GF´s run conqueror, they are mislead imho. I can understand the pain they cause by queueing for CN as tank. That´s scrub behavior and it is legitime to press ignore.
I also don´t think it is a "nobrainer" to be a good GWF under those "millions".

I use 2 orange rings on my companion. I have only one defense slot and I use a dark rank 12, I don't need defense because I don't care about tanking

schietindebux

multiplied x3, Adorable beats Avenger by
Power: +867 and Crit: +348, but loses 2100 defense
there are ways to be more tanky by sure, somtimes tankyness > dps, since dead GF = 0 dps
Mod 11 will be on par with adorable bites i guess.

tom

@defiatone its funny that u cry about dps gf when i just lately saw a gwf score a 41 mio ibs on the dragonturtle. I mean im just saying...

tom

Nope have only seen gwf hit 41 mio with 1 hit

tom

have u shown proofs of the crazy dmg gf who can also tank? why should i show proofs then?

crizpynutz

Ugh, can we close this, it's not a healthy GF discussion at all.

tom

yeah we are totaly off topic xD

kallephi

ONE person in this thread messed everything up and ruined the topic. The others are just GF comrades defending themselves. You all know who I'm talking about.

schietindebux said:

multiplied x3, Adorable beats Avenger by
Power: +867 and Crit: +348, but loses 2100 defense
there are ways to be more tanky by sure, somtimes tankyness > dps, since dead GF = 0 dps
Mod 11 will be on par with adorable bites i guess.

You need at least a +400 arpen on your companion gear to get arpen cap (depending on the class). So you either use 6 offense slots losing one of them with a vicious r12 or dark r10+ or you use 1 loyal avenger. I always use 1 loyal avenger piece on my toons so I get arpen cap. The other two items are with 2 offense slots
You don't need "tankiness" if you are a dps and never take the tank role. I've never seen a HR or SW with 15k defense, so I clearly don't need it too. I even saw top GWFs using lifesteal boon instead of defense boon.

mebengalsfan

waywardwizard#4349 said:

I might be completely wrong here but I think the idea behind this thread was not PVE, it was PVP. That's where the so called "great guardian fighter" can be viewed as a problem. Maybe the thread starter wanted to vent pvp grief but didn't want to do it directly so he disguised his topic. To make myself clear, I have nothing against dps GF. Any of us can play his characters how he wants. One of my GFs is a heavy tank, the other is dps. In PVP however the class imbalance has much more weight than in PVE. Those who play it know that the combat HR and the conqueror GF are both up there at the top and a both pretty much broken. I wont say more since this i not the PVP section of the forum.

A spamming AA DC would also probably fall into the category of broken in PVP.

armadeonx

defiantone99 said:

This was actually a great discussion. It sheds light on some important issues. Hopefully the devs read it.

As a person who mains a Pally, with CW & DC coming in as joint seconds and also as someone who has a GWF & GF of similar levels, I (believe) I'm speaking as impartially as I possibly can.

Yes it is possible to spec a GF as a HDPS. It's also possible to spec an SW as a healer, a CW as a buffer etc. I understand your point about pug queues demanding a 'tank' & 'healer' and the GF automatically gets identified as a tank regardless of their build, the same as an SW who specs as a healer won't get a healer slot.

The core of your argument is twofold:

* That due to the reduction in GWF temp health on the grounds of not being a tank and DPS at the same time, the GF should not be able to do this as well.

* That a class labelled as 'support' should not do equal dps to the official dps classes (specifically the GWF).

Addressing the first point, you've stated that a GF that specs as a DPS can both tank & dps. Peculiarly, you've also said that a GF taking a dps role cannot protect the party as they cannot tank. So you've said that GF dps should be decreased as they shouldn't tank & dps yet you've also said they cannot. This strikes me as a 'rationalisation' for the sake of point two, that because they are support, they shouldn't dps.

This to me is as much a philosophical point as a practical one; that a class choice specifically limits the capability & play style of the characters to fit within predetermined roles. The issue I have with this is; "why do all classes have 3 feat paths that are obviously designed to cater for a variety of roles". This is of course a rhetorical point, the 3 feat paths were created to allow a character to fulfil a variety of roles. The GWF has a tank path, the GF has a dps path, the DC has a dps path, the SW has a healing path, the CW has a buff path etc etc. Many of these paths are badly done but that's not really the point.

I understand that the pug queue system ignores these things but surely that is a problem with the queue system, not with players. The answer would be to take up a previous suggestion and allow players to classify their party role for themselves.

I would however pose one question to you: If the GF did less damage, say that of one of the other DPS classes & not the GWF, would you feel better? I suspect you would. You may infer the point I'm making here.

schietindebux

kallephi#0836 said:

ONE person in this thread messed everything up and ruined the topic. The others are just GF comrades defending themselves. You all know who I'm talking about.

schietindebux said:

multiplied x3, Adorable beats Avenger by
Power: +867 and Crit: +348, but loses 2100 defense
there are ways to be more tanky by sure, somtimes tankyness > dps, since dead GF = 0 dps
Mod 11 will be on par with adorable bites i guess.

You need at least a +400 arpen on your companion gear to get arpen cap (depending on the class). So you either use 6 offense slots losing one of them with a vicious r12 or dark r10+ or you use 1 loyal avenger. I always use 1 loyal avenger piece on my toons so I get arpen cap. The other two items are with 2 offense slots
You don't need "tankiness" if you are a dps and never take the tank role. I've never seen a HR or SW with 15k defense, so I clearly don't need it too. I even saw top GWFs using lifesteal boon instead of defense boon.

Only wanted to state that 12k defense is possible to buff for 6300.
2x adorable bites + 1x loyal avenger compared to 3x loyal avenger, stuffed with Brutals in offense and Azures in defense.
Multiplied x3 with a legendary companion.
That´s: +1734 power and +696 crit vs. 4200 defense.

Right, a GWF using lifesteal Boon instead power sacrifices 1600 power, but wins a ton of lifesteal and might be more tanky by that, depends on his stats somehow. You also gain more determination by recieving more damage.

kallephi

schietindebux said:

kallephi#0836 said:

ONE person in this thread messed everything up and ruined the topic. The others are just GF comrades defending themselves. You all know who I'm talking about.

schietindebux said:

multiplied x3, Adorable beats Avenger by
Power: +867 and Crit: +348, but loses 2100 defense
there are ways to be more tanky by sure, somtimes tankyness > dps, since dead GF = 0 dps
Mod 11 will be on par with adorable bites i guess.

You need at least a +400 arpen on your companion gear to get arpen cap (depending on the class). So you either use 6 offense slots losing one of them with a vicious r12 or dark r10+ or you use 1 loyal avenger. I always use 1 loyal avenger piece on my toons so I get arpen cap. The other two items are with 2 offense slots
You don't need "tankiness" if you are a dps and never take the tank role. I've never seen a HR or SW with 15k defense, so I clearly don't need it too. I even saw top GWFs using lifesteal boon instead of defense boon.

Only wanted to state that 12k defense is possible to buff for 6300.
2x adorable bites + 1x loyal avenger compared to 3x loyal avenger, stuffed with Brutals in offense and Azures in defense.
Multiplied x3 with a legendary companion.
That´s: +1734 power and +696 crit vs. 4200 defense.

Right, a GWF using lifesteal Boon instead power sacrifices 1600 power, but wins a ton of lifesteal and might be more tanky by that, depends on his stats somehow. You also gain more determination by recieving more damage.

I know. But I don't see any need to improve my defense by sacrificing offense slots and losing dps stats since I never take the tank role. GFs don't get critical chance from an abiility (str, dex, cha), so we need to get like 15% extra crit from other sources if we aim for 100% crit.

Like I said, I kept one loyal avenger item, 652 power and crit + the arpen you need, no offense slot can give you more than that hehehe, but after that additional arpen is useless.

armadeonx

defiantone99 said:

armadeonx said:

defiantone99 said:

This was actually a great discussion. It sheds light on some important issues. Hopefully the devs read it.

As a person who mains a Pally, with CW & DC coming in as joint seconds and also as someone who has a GWF & GF of similar levels, I (believe) I'm speaking as impartially as I possibly can.

Yes it is possible to spec a GF as a HDPS. It's also possible to spec an SW as a healer, a CW as a buffer etc. I understand your point about pug queues demanding a 'tank' & 'healer' and the GF automatically gets identified as a tank regardless of their build, the same as an SW who specs as a healer won't get a healer slot.

The core of your argument is twofold:

* That due to the reduction in GWF temp health on the grounds of not being a tank and DPS at the same time, the GF should not be able to do this as well.

* That a class labelled as 'support' should not do equal dps to the official dps classes (specifically the GWF).

Addressing the first point, you've stated that a GF that specs as a DPS can both tank & dps. Peculiarly, you've also said that a GF taking a dps role cannot protect the party as they cannot tank. So you've said that GF dps should be decreased as they shouldn't tank & dps yet you've also said they cannot. This strikes me as a 'rationalisation' for the sake of point two, that because they are support, they shouldn't dps.

This to me is as much a philosophical point as a practical one; that a class choice specifically limits the capability & play style of the characters to fit within predetermined roles. The issue I have with this is; "why do all classes have 3 feat paths that are obviously designed to cater for a variety of roles". This is of course a rhetorical point, the 3 feat paths were created to allow a character to fulfil a variety of roles. The GWF has a tank path, the GF has a dps path, the DC has a dps path, the SW has a healing path, the CW has a buff path etc etc. Many of these paths are badly done but that's not really the point.

I understand that the pug queue system ignores these things but surely that is a problem with the queue system, not with players. The answer would be to take up a previous suggestion and allow players to classify their party role for themselves.

I would however pose one question to you: If the GF did less damage, say that of one of the other DPS classes & not the GWF, would you feel better? I suspect you would. You may infer the point I'm making here.

They can tank and DPS, some just do not try to tank on purpose. Heck, they will even refuse to res or protect other party members that get killed getting in the way of them chasing Paingiver. At low Item levels, sure they can't tank. At BIS levels, they can. But, why play support on a support class when you can just be DPS on a support class. Makes sense.

Well that brings the sum of your compliant into the realms of "ppl are HAMSTER" which isn't really a class balancing issue. I assume this is only when pugging? Pugs are always a HAMSTER-shoot, it's partly why I run them

Mod manually applied HAMSTER filter.

kreatyve

I believe this thread has indeed ran it's course. Closed.