Talking about the changes with mod 12, @c3rb3r3 said in the ArP and Debuff change thread that "Bronzewood just got that tooltip change from "reducing ennemy resistance by 16%" to "Ennemies take 16% more damage from you" ".
Any chance you could have a look into this? I just tried on live server on Gyrion (demi-plane) and on dummies and it seems to me, that the 16% is a debuff instead of Resistance ignored - That Moment you realise you're lacking 1600 Arpen -_- duh!
So in your spreadsheet this would result in 16% debuff personal + 5% debuff for the group (on Trans)? I only have a perfect version yet :$
Thanks for your help, the testing and all the explanations this is much appreciated!
The tooltip changed from “your at-will and encounter powers ignore 16% of the target’s armor” to “your at-will and encounter powers do 16% more damage to the target”, but the effect for now is still the same.
This is searing light without enchantment:
And Searing Light with Bronzewood, after I "marked" the target:
The base damage of the skill is 4097,5 in both cases, the only changes in the second case are a 5% debuff and an additional hit called Bronzewood Weapon”. This additional hit is triggered by at-will and encounter powers, but it’s not equal to 16% of their damage. So, there is not an additional debuff and there is not a 16% damage increase. Don't ask me why.
I can't test it anymore since it's changed on preview, but in my original excel file it was multiplicative with DR debuffs. I don't have raw data about the uncapped part though. Anyway I think it doesn't matter anymore, on mod 12 it should be additive (I haven't tested it yet).
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I am sorry and would like to apologize. The debuff of Faerie Fire is 3% and uncapped and not 5% and capped, unlike what is represented here. I don't know how I got it wrong and I am sorry for misleading anyone.
Sharp, mistakes happen all the time, no need to worry of feel bad, I can also add that it can stack on both darkfire and Faerie Fire versions . (specially easy with a TR using DF) and the stack is indented. Max stacks I ever saw was 5 but that was once in 2 years so Its safe to say max is 4 with 2 being the common.
Dark Fire stacks only if you use certain skills. This is the normal duration of Dark Fire: 4 seconds.
Let’s take a Drow DC. This is what happens when I re-apply the debuff with Sacred Flame, or a lot of other skills. The duration is 6 seconds, it means that after two seconds the debuff was reapplied and it just refreshed the duration.
The same happens if I re-apply it with Forgemaster’s Flame.
This instead happens only if I use Daunting Light, Chains of Blazing Light or Flame Strike. In this case, the debuff stacks when re-applied.
And this is me trying to stack Dark Fire with Duellist’s Flurry for half a hour. I failed.
Now, in my opinion, if a debuff refreshes its duration when re-applied with some skills and stacks when re-applied with others, there is something not working very well. I'm not saying it's an exploit or something gamebreaking, but it's a bit weird.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
DF owner is always the TR (except when there are multiple TRs, then the bleed is an issue), maybe it's as usual source entity like with icy terrain ?
DF owner is always the TR (except when there are multiple TRs, then the bleed is an issue), maybe it's as usual source entity like with icy terrain ?
That's what it sounds like. We know that all sorts of debuffs have stacking issues when applied by entity spells. It wouldn't surprise me if the intermittent and inconsistent stacking people see is tied to casting entity spells.
It's also explains why CWs were the most likely to see the stacking happen (since they commonly use entity spells like IT, CoI, a couple of CW dailies etc.)
Anyone check to see if they are also stacking with mirage illusions? I'm trying hard to figure out how to get to 5 stacks hehe... (not as if that particular interaction will be around much, I'm just curious and want to explain what I've seen)
DF owner is always the TR (except when there are multiple TRs, then the bleed is an issue), maybe it's as usual source entity like with icy terrain ?
That's what it sounds like. We know that all sorts of debuffs have stacking issues when applied by entity spells. It wouldn't surprise me if the intermittent and inconsistent stacking people see is tied to casting entity spells.
It's also explains why CWs were the most likely to see the stacking happen (since they commonly use entity spells like IT, CoI, a couple of CW dailies etc.)
Anyone check to see if they are also stacking with mirage illusions? I'm trying hard to figure out how to get to 5 stacks hehe... (not as if that particular interaction will be around much, I'm just curious and want to explain what I've seen)
These abilities did not trigger Darkfire in a sample size of over 200 hits of each:
Smoulder
Rimefire
Storm Spell (To check this I took advantage of the bug that allows Storm Spell to trigger on targets you don't actually hit. These procs do noticeably less damage than normal SS procs so it is easy to differentiate them in the combat logs+I watched and the icon was never applied to the other targets hit)
Warped Magics
Creeping Frost
Abyss of Chaos
These skills refreshed the duration of Darkfire:
Ray of Frost
Magic Missiles
Conduit of Ice
Icy Rays
Chilling Cloud
Storm Pillar
Chill Strike
Sudden Storm
Entangling Force
Steal Time
Imprisonment
Ray of Enfeeblement
Repel
Ice Knife
Disintegrate
Ice Storm
Maelstrom of Chaos
Scorching Burst
Shield Pulse
Fanning the Flame
Arcane Singularity
I have not tested Assailing Force yet adequately enough to make any conclusions on it.
Oh and the Mirage Weapons do not proc Darkfire as far as I can tell. I haven't tested if Darkfire applied by multiple players stacks or refreshes, but that might explain higher number of stacks.
> @thefabricant said: > I am sorry and would like to apologize. The debuff of Faerie Fire is 3% and uncapped and not 5% and capped, unlike what is represented here. I don't know how I got it wrong and I am sorry for misleading anyone.
Does that mean Dark Fire is 5% and also uncapped or still 5% capped?
Anyone tested Dark Fire with OP skills if any of them can stack it? Maybe Burning Light.
Also anyone knows if Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth boons can trigger Dark Fire (or just any damage boons in general)? That would make Drow very viable race for Dev OP. I assume nothing changed regarding Lightning enchantment and its arcs being able to proc Dark Fire, right?
Dark Fire is capped, I checked it again right yesterday.
I actually tried to apply Dark Fire with Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth, but it didn’t work. I didn’t reply to you anymore because I am not sure. Sharpedge told me he wants to test which OP skills apply/stack Dark Fire too :P Anyway, since the sheet is one year old and some info could be outdated, if you guys want me to check something I can do it in these days before mod 12 go live. The only debuffs I can’t personally test are Faerie Fire and Greenscale Bowman.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Dark Fire is capped, I checked it again right yesterday.
I actually tried to apply Dark Fire with Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth, but it didn’t work. I didn’t reply to you anymore because I am not sure. Sharpedge told me he wants to test which OP skills apply/stack Dark Fire too :P Anyway, since the sheet is one year old and some info could be outdated, if you guys want me to check something I can do it in these days before mod 12 go live. The only debuffs I can’t personally test are Faerie Fire and Greenscale Bowman.
I told you what? When? >_> I think you might also need some glasses :P
If I understand it correctly, capped and uncapped debuffs are multiplicative, was just wondering if this still applies in mod 12 where there isn't a cap anymore.
From my recent simple test, they don't seem to be multiplicative. Or maybe it's because of the newly introduced diminishing return for debuffs that makes it appear to be lower than it should? But the effect shouldn't be that pronounced at low debuff %.
I told you what? When? >_> I think you might also need some glasses :P
You might want to dig the wax out of the ears Mr. Felt Pen, because you seem to forgot all the promises you made.
You promised me that you would grow a sense of humor, promised @thefiresidecat you would stop soiling your pants, promised @kolatmaster you would stick more memes and gifs in your guide(s), and you promised @romotheone you'd make a million more nicknames for me.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I told you what? When? >_> I think you might also need some glasses :P
You might want to dig the wax out of the ears Mr. Felt Pen, because you seem to forgot all the promises you made.
You promised me that you would grow a sense of humor, promised @thefiresidecat you would stop soiling your pants, promised @kolatmaster you would stick more memes and gifs in your guide(s), and you promised @romotheone you'd make a million more nicknames for me.
@bvira They will be all additive, at least the ones I've checked. Did you have 3 points in RoE? From what I've seen, there won't be anymore debuffs mitigated by DR, nor 75% effective vs level 73 mobs (except the Token of Chromatic Storm, unless they fixed it too). They will be multiplicative with the effectiveness given by (100-enemy's damage reistance+player's resistance ignored), meaning that if an enemy has 60% damage resistance and you have no arp, a 10% debuff will become only 4% (and then the diminishing return will be applied aswell). I haven't checked every single debuff, but this seems the general rule.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@bvira I think you had 3 points in Ray and in Swath of Destruction, which is why they are both 15% and not 17.5% and 20% respectively.
yo @thefabricant and @michela123 if you guys don't mind me asking, do you know if Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death are still double benefiting from debuffs? someone recently posted a video of 26+ million plus SoD hits and that doesn't seem WAI at all nor it would be good for people to build their toons (or trying those classes out) because of that o.O SW has been savagely nerfed in order to fix stuff not WAI, it wouldn't be good to get the class finished off by another round of nerfs that could leave it even weaker.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
yo @thefabricant and @michela123 if you guys don't mind me asking, do you know if Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death are still double benefiting from debuffs? someone recently posted a video of 26+ million plus SoD hits and that doesn't seem WAI at all nor it would be good for people to build their toons (or trying those classes out) because of that o.O SW has been savagely nerfed in order to fix stuff not WAI, it wouldn't be good to get the class finished off by another round of nerfs that could leave it even weaker.
@jaime4312#3760 Tyrannical Curse is double scaling with debuffs, see here: Tyrannical Curse: 247/845 = 0.2923076923 ~ 0.3, it calculates off the hit after the debuffs are applied.
It has always worked this way for SW however and even with this the class isn't performing particularly amazingly.
Creeping Death is not however: 115/768 = 0.15. It calculates off the initial hit.
yo @thefabricant and @michela123 if you guys don't mind me asking, do you know if Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death are still double benefiting from debuffs? someone recently posted a video of 26+ million plus SoD hits and that doesn't seem WAI at all nor it would be good for people to build their toons (or trying those classes out) because of that o.O SW has been savagely nerfed in order to fix stuff not WAI, it wouldn't be good to get the class finished off by another round of nerfs that could leave it even weaker.
@jaime4312#3760 Tyrannical Curse is double scaling with debuffs, see here: Tyrannical Curse: 247/845 = 0.2923076923 ~ 0.3, it calculates off the hit after the debuffs are applied.
It has always worked this way for SW however and even with this the class isn't performing particularly amazingly.
Creeping Death is not however: 115/768 = 0.15. It calculates off the initial hit.
Anyone redoing this with a diminishing return chart?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The level 73 mitigation on the debuff itself still exists ? Or with the global changes it was removed too ? (I think it was removed, but I don't remember for 100%)
@michela123 With no lvl 73 mitigation how does Ambush Drake compare to Sellsword? 20% debuff with 50% uptime due to rotation Drake uses but with immediate application of debuff on attack. Is it better or worse than Sellsword in terms of debuff? In a party with 4 Sellswords/Con Artists would it be better to add 5th or Ambush Drake instead?
Comments
(yeah yeah sellswords still stack)
Any chance you could have a look into this? I just tried on live server on Gyrion (demi-plane) and on dummies and it seems to me, that the 16% is a debuff instead of Resistance ignored - That Moment you realise you're lacking 1600 Arpen -_- duh!
So in your spreadsheet this would result in 16% debuff personal + 5% debuff for the group (on Trans)? I only have a perfect version yet :$
Thanks for your help, the testing and all the explanations this is much appreciated!
This is searing light without enchantment:
And Searing Light with Bronzewood, after I "marked" the target:
The base damage of the skill is 4097,5 in both cases, the only changes in the second case are a 5% debuff and an additional hit called Bronzewood Weapon”. This additional hit is triggered by at-will and encounter powers, but it’s not equal to 16% of their damage.
So, there is not an additional debuff and there is not a 16% damage increase. Don't ask me why.
Was Overwhelming Impact always uncapped? (Because, for the longest time, I could have sworn that it was a DR debuff.)
Or is it a mistake on your sheet?
Voodoo - MoF debuffer
Atlantes - SW Temploc
Borland - GWF
This is the normal duration of Dark Fire: 4 seconds.
Let’s take a Drow DC. This is what happens when I re-apply the debuff with Sacred Flame, or a lot of other skills. The duration is 6 seconds, it means that after two seconds the debuff was reapplied and it just refreshed the duration.
The same happens if I re-apply it with Forgemaster’s Flame.
This instead happens only if I use Daunting Light, Chains of Blazing Light or Flame Strike. In this case, the debuff stacks when re-applied.
And this is me trying to stack Dark Fire with Duellist’s Flurry for half a hour. I failed.
Now, in my opinion, if a debuff refreshes its duration when re-applied with some skills and stacks when re-applied with others, there is something not working very well. I'm not saying it's an exploit or something gamebreaking, but it's a bit weird.
It's also explains why CWs were the most likely to see the stacking happen (since they commonly use entity spells like IT, CoI, a couple of CW dailies etc.)
Anyone check to see if they are also stacking with mirage illusions? I'm trying hard to figure out how to get to 5 stacks hehe... (not as if that particular interaction will be around much, I'm just curious and want to explain what I've seen)
The following skills stack Darkfire:
- Icy Terrain
- Oppressive Force
- Shard of Endless Avalanche
- Furious Immolation
These abilities did not trigger Darkfire in a sample size of over 200 hits of each:- Smoulder
- Rimefire
- Storm Spell (To check this I took advantage of the bug that allows Storm Spell to trigger on targets you don't actually hit. These procs do noticeably less damage than normal SS procs so it is easy to differentiate them in the combat logs+I watched and the icon was never applied to the other targets hit)
- Warped Magics
- Creeping Frost
- Abyss of Chaos
These skills refreshed the duration of Darkfire:- Ray of Frost
- Magic Missiles
- Conduit of Ice
- Icy Rays
- Chilling Cloud
- Storm Pillar
- Chill Strike
- Sudden Storm
- Entangling Force
- Steal Time
- Imprisonment
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Repel
- Ice Knife
- Disintegrate
- Ice Storm
- Maelstrom of Chaos
- Scorching Burst
- Shield Pulse
- Fanning the Flame
- Arcane Singularity
I have not tested Assailing Force yet adequately enough to make any conclusions on it.Oh and the Mirage Weapons do not proc Darkfire as far as I can tell. I haven't tested if Darkfire applied by multiple players stacks or refreshes, but that might explain higher number of stacks.
> I am sorry and would like to apologize. The debuff of Faerie Fire is 3% and uncapped and not 5% and capped, unlike what is represented here.
Does that mean Dark Fire is 5% and also uncapped or still 5% capped?
Anyone tested Dark Fire with OP skills if any of them can stack it? Maybe Burning Light.
Also anyone knows if Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth boons can trigger Dark Fire (or just any damage boons in general)? That would make Drow very viable race for Dev OP. I assume nothing changed regarding Lightning enchantment and its arcs being able to proc Dark Fire, right?
I actually tried to apply Dark Fire with Burning Guidance and Healing Warmth, but it didn’t work. I didn’t reply to you anymore because I am not sure. Sharpedge told me he wants to test which OP skills apply/stack Dark Fire too :P
Anyway, since the sheet is one year old and some info could be outdated, if you guys want me to check something I can do it in these days before mod 12 go live. The only debuffs I can’t personally test are Faerie Fire and Greenscale Bowman.
If I understand it correctly, capped and uncapped debuffs are multiplicative, was just wondering if this still applies in mod 12 where there isn't a cap anymore.
From my recent simple test, they don't seem to be multiplicative. Or maybe it's because of the newly introduced diminishing return for debuffs that makes it appear to be lower than it should? But the effect shouldn't be that pronounced at low debuff %.
Btw, RoE is 15% now...
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
You promised me that you would grow a sense of humor, promised @thefiresidecat you would stop soiling your pants, promised @kolatmaster you would stick more memes and gifs in your guide(s), and you promised @romotheone you'd make a million more nicknames for me.
From what I've seen, there won't be anymore debuffs mitigated by DR, nor 75% effective vs level 73 mobs (except the Token of Chromatic Storm, unless they fixed it too). They will be multiplicative with the effectiveness given by (100-enemy's damage reistance+player's resistance ignored), meaning that if an enemy has 60% damage resistance and you have no arp, a 10% debuff will become only 4% (and then the diminishing return will be applied aswell). I haven't checked every single debuff, but this seems the general rule.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Tyrannical Curse:
247/845 = 0.2923076923 ~ 0.3, it calculates off the hit after the debuffs are applied.
It has always worked this way for SW however and even with this the class isn't performing particularly amazingly.
Creeping Death is not however:
115/768 = 0.15. It calculates off the initial hit.
Thanks for the info! yeah SW is so underpowered
With no lvl 73 mitigation how does Ambush Drake compare to Sellsword? 20% debuff with 50% uptime due to rotation Drake uses but with immediate application of debuff on attack. Is it better or worse than Sellsword in terms of debuff? In a party with 4 Sellswords/Con Artists would it be better to add 5th or Ambush Drake instead?