Hey... Back again :P Would Vanguard's Banner be the best debuff artifact if all of them work correctly? I'm holding on to mine in those hopes and not getting anything else.
I believe Vanguard's Banner is "supposed" to be a Defense debuff, so yes, if Vanguards Banner gets fixed, I can see it being the best of the debuffing artifacts.
I have a question. If you have reached the 200% cap for DR Debuffs (not adding in debuffs that ignore the cap) wouldn't Damage buffs be more effective in group play? For example:
Party: DC, CW, SW, GF, GWF
DC + CW apply debuffs reaching the 200% cap. At this point everyone else should just run Vorpals and stack Damage buffs?
I understand this thread is about what works, what exceeds caps, and what gets mitigated, but now that we have that information we can begin to filter out excess debuffs from the party and focus on buffs right? I ask this because as a GWF, it would be completely unnecessary to run any debuffs if my party has already reached the debuff cap. (If marks don't stack, running Battle Fury would be more effective) This is just an example for my class. This was also discussed in the DC forum in regards to stacking debuffs between two DCs. I might be missing something but it would appear that in most parties when running 2xDC you can reach the debuff cap with just 1 DC plus a few debuffs from another class, meaning the other DC might as well be a power sharing Haste Cleric or anything outside of being a debuff cleric. When you understand what stacks and what doesn't you can really change the diversity of the party. Buffs become > Debuffs past 200%? (Any buffs, not exclusively Damage buffs)
Yes, your GWF should be running Battle Fury, especially if you're running with a GF.
And yes, once you hit the debuff cap, buffs become more important, such as Pillar of Power.
Although defense debuffs are still important when trying to kill things really quickly.
Hey... Back again :P Would Vanguard's Banner be the best debuff artifact if all of them work correctly? I'm holding on to mine in those hopes and not getting anything else.
I believe Vanguard's Banner is "supposed" to be a Defense debuff, so yes, if Vanguards Banner gets fixed, I can see it being the best of the debuffing artifacts.
Sweet! I'll stick to it, hopefully they'll fix it 'soon'.
@rinat114 ACT logs are not very clear because Daring Shout and Enforced Threat are not registered, but... whatever! Here the GWF casts Daring Shout and after some seconds the GF uses Enforced Threat. The 20% mark from Daring Shout is active for 20 seconds, then the GWF receives the last seconds of Enforced Threat debuff. This means that if the GF is marking the mobs you gain only 12% from Daring Shout. Note that they don't cancel each other: the highest one is applied until it expires.
Threatening Rush is probably bugged and it adds 12% to other marks. This is the result if you use Daring Shout and Threatening Rush:
Very interesting, I hope I can find my old logs from mod 4 or 5, the marks did stack, I never thought about checking whether the mechanic changed. Funny however, Threatening Rush is still bugged after all this time, hilarious. Thanks for the logs, I'll run additional tests later this week to verify the changes. To all those poking me about the stacking marks, if you have a GF in the party who's RELIABLE with their marks, no reason to run DS anymore, perhaps on mobs only if you're flying solo or running ahead and you don't want to rely on somebody else marking for you. For solo content of course, DS is still your most viable choice. Thanks again for the work guys, I'll update my guide soon and refer to that as well.
pretty sure that Threatening Rush is not bugged, there is no rule that said double mark should be 20% and 8%. i played iron vanguard as long as i know, the 12% on 2nd mark has been there for ages. as for DS, many changed to BF since demogorgon days.
If the IBS mark will not stack with the DS mark, then TR giving an extra 12% IS a bug, however I haven't checked yet, I'll come back with results.
pretty sure that Threatening Rush is not bugged, there is no rule that said double mark should be 20% and 8%. i played iron vanguard as long as i know, the 12% on 2nd mark has been there for ages. as for DS, many changed to BF since demogorgon days.
If the IBS mark will not stack with the DS mark, then TR giving an extra 12% IS a bug, however I haven't checked yet, I'll come back with results.
Looking at the classic version of the debuff spreadsheet... Threatening Rush has two debuffs:
The first is an 8% mark, much like Enforced Threat.
The second is a 12% DR debuff, like most debuffs in the game. If you have already hit the DR debuff cap before applying Rush, then this 12% debuff will be effectively rendered useless.
While you can use multiple marking powers, only the marking effect with the greatest debuff will apply to each player. So even if your GF uses Tab Mark and Enforced Threat on a boss, the team only recieves the Tab Mark's debuff due to the Tab Mark being a greater debuff than ET's marking effect.
@michela123, I think I have this correct, but please confirm and/or deny.
... To all those poking me about the stacking marks, if you have a GF in the party who's RELIABLE with their marks, no reason to run DS anymore, perhaps on mobs only if you're flying solo or running ahead and you don't want to rely on somebody else marking for you. For solo content of course, DS is still your most viable choice. Thanks again for the work guys, I'll update my guide soon and refer to that as well.
In terms of a massive AoE marking effect, Daring Shout has the advantage of its marking effects never falling off, whereas the GF's Enforced Threat can fall off if the GF gets hit without their shield up.
In most dungeons, this isn't much of an issue. In the first part of Esvard, I found this to be really annoying, as I'm constantly getting hit from multiple directions when trying to cast ITF/aggro mobs off the team.
Yes, Ambush Drake stacks. The debuff uptime is around 50% though, so it doesn't seem superior to Sellsword/Con Artist. Still a good choice anyway.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
A small question: What is the average (educated guess) uncapped debuff in a party ? 10 people msva for example. Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with what most classes slot / feat this days.
I usually see around 250-300% effectiveness in mSVA when I pug (yes, sometimes I can run ACT without making my PC explode). In premade parties it's usually 300-350%, today we reached a 395% peak with 5 Sellsword, 1 Dancing Shield and 4 Frost . Frost stacks even at the same rank btw.
This formula says that, in absence of uncapped debuffs, effectiveness is equal to zero, as both "base effectiveness" and the sum of capped debuffs are multiplied by zero.
Confronting it with the simplified formula in your first post:
Just quick question for you PC folks. I'm on PS4, heard that Con Artists supposedly don't stack and it's personal buff. I remember reading the devs said there are no plans for Con Artist, DC changes are next. But the person who said that was so sure about that and said it was silent nerf with Commander Strike fix, but if it'd be true it would be loud about it here and on reddit, wouldn't it?
Here I am attacking a dummy with two con artists and they give me 20% debuff, so they stack and affect other players. I took the screenshot ten minutes ago. Of course I can't check PS4.
Just quick question for you PC folks. I'm on PS4, heard that Con Artists supposedly don't stack and it's personal buff. I remember reading the devs said there are no plans for Con Artist, DC changes are next. But the person who said that was so sure about that and said it was silent nerf with Commander Strike fix, but if it'd be true it would be loud about it here and on reddit, wouldn't it?
It's still its same ol' -10% Defen- er.. uncapped debuff.
While it hasn't been nerfed, the devs are at least looking at the sword trio debuffs (Sellsword/RebelMerc/ConArtist).
They didn't outright say they were looking into the sword trio, but they did say they were looking into effects which bypass the debuff cap. They said this around the same time they planned to cap Frost and Plaguefire, but I couldn't find the exact post (should be somewhere around Page 15/16 of the preview weapon enchant changes).
Who's spreading these rumors? Because they fail to realize that the Con Artist is a debuff: it applies to your enemies, not you. And besides, if it was a personal damage buff, the damage boost would be better than a debuff (because buffs multiply versus everything, but debuffs add to each other in the same category).
Now if s/he was talking about another certain companion, that's a different story...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
They informed me (sorry I forgot the name of who told me) that Vanguard Banner is still bugged. Now it works vs dummies, but it doesn't work vs mobs if your RI is capped. I didn't notice it because when I checked at dummies the effectiveness was 8% (before the patch it was 0%) but when I checked it vs mobs I had no ArP. I confirm that Pillar of Power and Bear your Sins work correctly. Sorry for the wrong info, it's not easy to keep everything updated and check every possible bug, so I appreciate every help I can get. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon.
Last time I tested it was 10%, but then there was another patch. Now the preview server is closed, so I can't check the final version. I think it should be 10% anyway.
What happened to uncapped 2% debuff from Trans Plague Fire that is not in the spreadsheet anymore? Removed on PC with Mod 11 after weapon enchantments change?
What happened to uncapped 2% debuff from Trans Plague Fire that is not in the spreadsheet anymore? Removed on PC with Mod 11 after weapon enchantments change?
Probably. And I think the 2% extra Trans debuff was actually a DRdebuff/capped last I checked.
Anyways, I was recently checking out Michela's damage debuffs sheet, and lo and behold, Plaguefire has a 2% multiplicative damage debuff that stacks 3 times.
Yes it was removed, but it was also improved since it's no longer mitigated (except vs 73 mobs) and it's easier to keep up the stacks. I should update the thread with mod 11 changes, but I'm too lazy
Yes it was removed, but it was also improved since it's no longer mitigated (except vs 73 mobs) and it's easier to keep up the stacks. I should update the thread with mod 11 changes, but I'm too lazy
Oh, I see. So, correct me if I'm wrong, Mod 10.5: 3x3%, capped at 200%, mitigated by DR, 75% eff vs lvl 73 plus extra uncapped 2% at Trans, not mitigated by DR nor 75% eff vs lvl 73 enemies. The new Mod 11 debuff only 75% eff vs lvl 73 does look great compared to Mod 10.5. Could you include the old spreadsheet from Mod 10.5 for us console players until we get Mod 11? That would be amazing.
The 3x3 was uncapped, the 2% capped, anyway yes they improved it in mod 11. It's also easier to maintain the stacks now. I added a Consoles page for now, but I probably won't be able to keep it updated with your patch notes.
Any changes to stacking Consumed by Battle debuff from Con Artist/Sellsword in Mod 11 or 11B? Or running 5 Con Artists is/will be still good? I keep hearing it won't stack anymore but nobody who says that is willing to provide a source for these rumors.
Comments
And yes, once you hit the debuff cap, buffs become more important, such as Pillar of Power.
Although defense debuffs are still important when trying to kill things really quickly.
Well, the other questions have already been answered.
Very interesting, I hope I can find my old logs from mod 4 or 5, the marks did stack, I never thought about checking whether the mechanic changed. Funny however, Threatening Rush is still bugged after all this time, hilarious. Thanks for the logs, I'll run additional tests later this week to verify the changes. To all those poking me about the stacking marks, if you have a GF in the party who's RELIABLE with their marks, no reason to run DS anymore, perhaps on mobs only if you're flying solo or running ahead and you don't want to rely on somebody else marking for you. For solo content of course, DS is still your most viable choice. Thanks again for the work guys, I'll update my guide soon and refer to that as well.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
The first is an 8% mark, much like Enforced Threat.
The second is a 12% DR debuff, like most debuffs in the game. If you have already hit the DR debuff cap before applying Rush, then this 12% debuff will be effectively rendered useless.
While you can use multiple marking powers, only the marking effect with the greatest debuff will apply to each player. So even if your GF uses Tab Mark and Enforced Threat on a boss, the team only recieves the Tab Mark's debuff due to the Tab Mark being a greater debuff than ET's marking effect.
@michela123, I think I have this correct, but please confirm and/or deny. In terms of a massive AoE marking effect, Daring Shout has the advantage of its marking effects never falling off, whereas the GF's Enforced Threat can fall off if the GF gets hit without their shield up.
In most dungeons, this isn't much of an issue. In the first part of Esvard, I found this to be really annoying, as I'm constantly getting hit from multiple directions when trying to cast ITF/aggro mobs off the team.
Very much appreciated
Keep up the good work!
This formula says that, in absence of uncapped debuffs, effectiveness is equal to zero, as both "base effectiveness" and the sum of capped debuffs are multiplied by zero.
Confronting it with the simplified formula in your first post:
It seems that the second square bracket lacks a "1+", to be added to the sum of uncapped debuffs (both mitigated and unmitigated).
Am I making a mistake?
and Vanguard's Bannerhave been fixed. Now they are all capped at 200%.While it hasn't been nerfed, the devs are at least looking at the sword trio debuffs (Sellsword/RebelMerc/ConArtist).
They didn't outright say they were looking into the sword trio, but they did say they were looking into effects which bypass the debuff cap. They said this around the same time they planned to cap Frost and Plaguefire, but I couldn't find the exact post (should be somewhere around Page 15/16 of the preview weapon enchant changes).
Who's spreading these rumors? Because they fail to realize that the Con Artist is a debuff: it applies to your enemies, not you. And besides, if it was a personal damage buff, the damage boost would be better than a debuff (because buffs multiply versus everything, but debuffs add to each other in the same category).
Now if s/he was talking about another certain companion, that's a different story...
Anyways, I was recently checking out Michela's damage debuffs sheet, and lo and behold, Plaguefire has a 2% multiplicative damage debuff that stacks 3 times.
Could you include the old spreadsheet from Mod 10.5 for us console players until we get Mod 11? That would be amazing.