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[PC] Mod 16 PvE Washed Up Fighter Tank Guide

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  • jackharper#1224 jackharper Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Hi
    I need help with FBI. I have 200k hp 85% dr but when i use KV in fbi and giant throws a rock KV kill me if me and other pt member stay in red area. What are you doing on FBI? Use KV and be careful or dont use it?
    And how it looks like on tong? Earlier i play like tank/buff but now is more difficult play like a tank.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User

    Hi
    I need help with FBI. I have 200k hp 85% dr but when i use KV in fbi and giant throws a rock KV kill me if me and other pt member stay in red area. What are you doing on FBI? Use KV and be careful or dont use it?

    I use KV, but I use situational awareness.
    If you can see/predict someone is going to get rekt by the rock, turn off KV. Better to have one DPS down than the tank.

    Otherwise, the strategy I like best is to stream the rocks.

    (Is it bad that I like the hill climb? The way it's supposed to kill you actually has some thought, it reminds me a lot of Touhou).

    Stand off to the side somewhere, and bait the giants via Tab mark.

    If done correctly, you'll see them prepare their charging attack (should appear as red rectangle on the ground).

    Dodge the charging attack by slightly shifting your position to the side (move enough to get out of the way, but not enough that you won't be in the same general area).

    Once they finish your charge, gtfo out of the way. If you've done it correctly, you'll see a bunch of red circles appear where you once were. The giants whiff their rocks, you are out of the way, and your teammates are in position to drop the enemies.


    And how it looks like on tong? Earlier i play like tank/buff but now is more difficult play like a tank.

    Tomb I usually play DPS GF, simply because the good ones are apparently in short supply.

    On the rare occasion I play Tactician, I only do it for mobs, boss 1/boss 3.

    Mobs are standard fare tanking with some gimmicks tosses in, so there's not much to talk about.

    Boss 1 hits hard, so you can actually use that to your advantage to generate AP. Also, if you pack a lot of debuffs, debuffs double count versus Bloody Death/DPS curse, causing your DPS person to deal more damage.

    For boss 3, the challenge is basically working around two attacks: his overhead swing, and his random sword hit. Every other attack gives you ample time to prepare or doesn't do much. To deal with those two attacks, I highly recommend liberal use of Fighter's Recovery with Jagged Blades/FR. Hit him until you place Jagged Blades, cast FR, shield his overhead, get a full daily, wait for his random sword hit, cast FR again between attacks. As long as his overhead never crosses up your shield, you should do fine.

    Make sure to stand in the gaps of his red strips (they are what adds to your DR shred, if dodge them, no need to worry about DR shred) and make sure to position yourself away from your teammates.

    There is literally no point in playing Tactician for boss 2, simply because you don't need to aggro the boss, and the faster you kill the 2nd boss, the less gimmicks you need to worry about.


  • jackharper#1224 jackharper Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Thx for your help.
    It seems to me that gf lost his quality in pt. Now GF is not a good tank? OP is better? What do You think about protector feat? It's still buged or useless? I like play like buff but i like play like a tank too, im think tank was more important for me.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    GF is still a "good" tank, but OP just does it much easier. The only advantage a GF tank has over an OP tank is that a GF tank gives CA to teammates... which isn't too much of an overall advantage

    For the tree in general, it's not bad in the sense Archer HR is bad, it's bad because another tree (Tactician) does Protector's job better.

    If you're referring to the Protector capstone, it works (finally), but it just feels underwhelming. Surging Tide offers similar debuffing capabilities, and OP does the same thing but better by just existing.

  • jackharper#1224 jackharper Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    OK thx again.
    What do you think soon gf will be "better" tank? Cryptic plans to improve something in GF?
    Post edited by jackharper#1224 on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User

    OK thx again.
    What do you think soon gf will be "better" tank? Cryptic plans to improve something in GF?

    I don't see the devs doing anything, for reasons of functionality.

    The way I see it, GFs can tank fine, even though another class does the tanking job much easier which much less effort.
    I wouldn't want the devs to nerf Tankadins or artificially make GF invincible just so GF becomes the more desireable tank in the random lfg calls.

    The whole "(x) occupies same role, but is better" is just a thing with the game in general, you'll just have to accept it.

    The only way I'd see us getting any attention from the devs is if something was glitched/broken (ex: say there was a hypothetical glitch which left the GF's shield unable to be raised), or if something on tank GFs was so horrendously underpowered it affected their role (ex: hypothetical situation where aggro generation so too low that even SWs or TRs can steal aggro on Damnation or Scoundrel setups).

  • reddevil#2768 reddevil Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Hello
    First, great job with jour guide.
    Now i have questions about weapon enchantments.
    1. You say on plague fire "5.88% damage debuff on enemies at 3 stacks (2% multiplicative stacks, stacks a maximum of 3 times)" so how it's work? This stone give 9% debuff or 5,8%? This 5,8% is on stronger enemy like boss and 9% other enemies?
    How work other weap enchantments, frost give 10% for all enemies or this is dependent on the strength of the emeny. Weak 10% stronger 6-8%? Other ench like terror also work on this principle?

    2. Frost give buffs all time or only for 10 sec every 20 sec?

    3. What do you think about bronzewood? Sometimes i see GF with this ench.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Hello

    First, great job with jour guide.

    Now i have questions about weapon enchantments.

    1. You say on plague fire "5.88% damage debuff on enemies at 3 stacks (2% multiplicative stacks, stacks a maximum of 3 times)" so how it's work? This stone give 9% debuff or 5,8%? This 5,8% is on stronger enemy like boss and 9% other enemies?

    How work other weap enchantments, frost give 10% for all enemies or this is dependent on the strength of the emeny. Weak 10% stronger 6-8%? Other ench like terror also work on this principle?

    Plaguefire places stacks of Plaguefire on opponents, but the stacks have two components.

    The first, the damage increasing debuff (ie, I apply this to enemies and they take more damage from me and my teammates), is 3% per stack, totalling in at 9%

    The second, the damage decreasing debuff (ie, I apply this to enemies and they deal less damage to me and my teammates), is 2% per stack. The reason it appears as 5.88% rather than the expected 6% is because of the way damage decreasing debuffs.

    Initial Damage * (1- Debuff %) * (1- Debuff%)

    Since Plaguefire's damage decreasing debuff is 2% per stack...

    Initial Damage * (1-0.02) * (1-0.02) * (1-0.02)
    Initial Damage * (0.98) * (0.98) * (0.98)
    Initial Damage * (0.9412)

    So, if we apply 3x stacks of Plaguefire, the enemy's initial damage is reduced to be 94.12% as effective as it normally would be.

    The difference between normal damage (1, or "100%" effectiveness) and the reduced effectiveness is 5.88%

    There's more info on damage decreasing debuffs here

    Other weapon enchantments have this "make enemies take more damage from you and your team, and deal less damage to you and your team" aspect. I'll check if it wasn't clear if I made a distinction between the debuffs, but I was quite certain I wrote out the different debuff types.




    2. Frost give buffs all time or only for 10 sec every 20 sec?

    You can only apply the debuff once every 20 seconds, and the debuff itself only has a duration of 10 seconds.

    Once the duration expires, you are allowed to apply it again.


    3. What do you think about bronzewood? Sometimes i see GF with this ench.

    I don't know the debuff % of Bronzewood off the top of my head, or its properties besides "it offers a damage buff, a % of weapon damage proc, and a debuff".

    I would need more information, but seeing as I'm stuck in class right now, I can't test it, and thus I can't give you an exact reccomendation.

  • reddevil#2768 reddevil Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    Now I understand how it's work. Thank You.
    Another question, debuff are stack? If i use the same weap ench and other player use it how it's work? (i ask about terror/plague/frost).
    Terror is good options for debuff?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User

    Now I understand how it's work. Thank You.

    Another question, debuff are stack? If i use the same weap ench and other player use it how it's work? (i ask about terror/plague/frost).

    Terror is good options for debuff?

    Different debuff sources stack.

    For example, you could stack Plaguefire, Terror, and Frost all on the same target, and all of their debuffs apply.

    As a general rule, the same debuff source won't stack.

    For example, if you have two Dancing Shields applying the same debuff, only one debuff is calculated. Same goes for the DC's Divine Glow.

    There are some weirdo exceptions to the rule, such as the Sellsword debuff stacking per Sellsword in the team, or one of the Dread debuffs.

    ---

    Terror is a decent enchantment.
    Easy to use, easy to apply, and a fairly uncommon debuff enchant in general.

    If you are running with a GWF who uses Terror, you may wish to pick something else to max your debuff %.

  • reddevil#2768 reddevil Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    You're right a lot of dps use terror, it will be better if I buy something else.
    Thank You.
  • lk9t9#5126 lk9t9 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Hello, when we can wait new version of guide?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    I will post the new version of the guide when I'm done, which should be somewhere near February 24ish, if not earlier.

    But, to be honest, there's not much that will be updated, since most of the new stuff is oriented towards DPSers and not tanking GFs.

  • armunn1armunn1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    First off im a new player to this game.So far i'm liking this class an this guide.On your powers tab,unless i totally misunderstood or my newbness is showing,i wasn't really clear on how you dealt out your points.Is there a pic someone can post on ow this was done.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    armunn1 said:

    First off im a new player to this game.So far i'm liking this class an this guide.On your powers tab,unless i totally misunderstood or my newbness is showing,i wasn't really clear on how you dealt out your points.Is there a pic someone can post on ow this was done.

    I have so many power points nowadays that I have everything at Rank 4.

    I would make my first rank 4 ability Into the Fray.
    After that, I would go for Enforced Threat, Fighter's Recovery, Guarded Assault, Knight's Valor, Villain's Menace, and Steel Grace for Rank4.

    Almost everything else is either irrelevant or perfectly functional at Rank 3.

  • armunn1armunn1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    Thank you
  • blasterwhip#7799 blasterwhip Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Hi I am new player and I am also trying out a tank GF but I heard that conqueror GF is better at tanking as well? it is difficult for me to make a separate loadout for both since quite a few items do differ between them and I do not have access to many high tier items, so what you recommend for a starting GF player? thanks for your help.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User

    Hi I am new player and I am also trying out a tank GF but I heard that conqueror GF is better at tanking as well? it is difficult for me to make a separate loadout for both since quite a few items do differ between them and I do not have access to many high tier items, so what you recommend for a starting GF player? thanks for your help.

    Play Conqueror GF for everything.

    Sure, you lose a little bit of buffing potential over Tactician, but in exchange, your solo life doesn't take forever. And in a dungeon run, you have slightly better aggro capabilities than Tactician or Protector.

    Use typical DPS powers for a soloing build, run the usual tank powers for tanking dungeons.

  • armunn1armunn1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    I appreciate the tip,but i've always played a true tank class.Here its not going to be an exception.As far as the soloing time frame .I'm not on of those who are always going at mach thinking faster is better (no offence) besides,at the end of the run if you've done your job,and that's to take an axe to the face and still smile,While protecting your team. You've done your job
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    armunn1 said:

    I appreciate the tip,but i've always played a true tank class.Here its not going to be an exception.As far as the soloing time frame .I'm not on of those who are always going at mach thinking faster is better (no offence) besides,at the end of the run if you've done your job,and that's to take an axe to the face and still smile,While protecting your team. You've done your job

    Sounds like you want to play a Paladin in this game )...
    Just saying...
  • armunn1armunn1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    Since sword are my favorite weapons,yeah id go the pally route.Seeing his access to swords is kinda limited I think im good
  • armunn1armunn1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    oops i aplogise i thought that poast was a random one.I just saw it was a response.Once agin my aplogies
  • fightdawalrus#5058 fightdawalrus Member Posts: 114 Arc User
    Are the survivor wraps still worth getting for a dps gf?

    Mine is only 13k but tryimg to understand if they are still BiS after the recent changes.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    Primal Raid Armour or new weapons not good enough to make the list?
    rjc9000 said:

    Play Conqueror GF for everything.

    Sure, you lose a little bit of buffing potential over Tactician, but in exchange, your solo life doesn't take forever. And in a dungeon run, you have slightly better aggro capabilities than Tactician or Protector.

    Use typical DPS powers for a soloing build, run the usual tank powers for tanking dungeons.

    For a start up GF to help with aggro and solo or for all GFs?



  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    lantern22 said:

    Primal Raid Armour

    Stats aren't exactly what I want, I barely run Tactician nowadays, and, in my opinion, if you have done all other campaigns and can reliably farm Tomb/Cradle for gear, you can figure out what would work and what doesn't work on your setup.
    lantern22 said:

    new weapons not good enough to make the list?

    The SH III weapons are listed in the Stronghold Set weapons, since their only difference over the SH II and SH I weapon sets are the extra weapon damage and slightly more stats. The real reason to use them is for the set bonus. If you cannot afford the Bronzewood weapons, then the SH II weapons, or even SH I weapons (if you are confident in your aggro generation) are substitutes.

    I don't list the other Mod13 weapon sets because they are all geared towards doing damage, or in the case of Pioneer, don't really stand out otherwise. I don't list the other Mod 12 and prior weapon sets because they are not worth the grind to get them.
    lantern22 said:


    For a start up GF to help with aggro and solo or for all GFs?

    Both reasons, but mostly from an overall gearing perspective.

    If you are soloing/gearing up, you need the Conqueror damage to get through your stuff faster.

    Then you get into dungeon running, and I see two camps of people who run GF: people who want to pure tank versus the people who want to DPS, but only tank because they want to learn the fundamentals.

    For the former group, it's not hard to make an effective tank build. I would argue even that the build doesn't even matter. You just need Shield, ITF, ET, Tab Mark, a mainhand/offhand, and optionally Fighter's Recovery to have an effective tank setup. You have access to all of those tools regardless of the build or gear. Conqueror does have the small edge in aggroing, which may be helpful to more timid players who want to focus on their defensive tactics rather than having to worry about controlling the enemy.

    For the latter group, you want to invest in gear that will ultimately serve your build in endgame so you don't need to make purchases later. Since DPS GF gear is expensive and a tanking setup is not, I feel it is easier and more cost effective to use tank powers/gear with a Conqueror build. I highly doubt teams will notice the difference anyways.

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    rjc9000 said:

    lantern22 said:

    Primal Raid Armour

    Stats aren't exactly what I want, I barely run Tactician nowadays, and, in my opinion, if you have done all other campaigns and can reliably farm Tomb/Cradle for gear, you can figure out what would work and what doesn't work on your setup.
    lantern22 said:

    new weapons not good enough to make the list?

    The SH III weapons are listed in the Stronghold Set weapons, since their only difference over the SH II and SH I weapon sets are the extra weapon damage and slightly more stats. The real reason to use them is for the set bonus. If you cannot afford the Bronzewood weapons, then the SH II weapons, or even SH I weapons (if you are confident in your aggro generation) are substitutes.

    I don't list the other Mod13 weapon sets because they are all geared towards doing damage, or in the case of Pioneer, don't really stand out otherwise. I don't list the other Mod 12 and prior weapon sets because they are not worth the grind to get them.
    lantern22 said:


    For a start up GF to help with aggro and solo or for all GFs?

    Both reasons, but mostly from an overall gearing perspective.

    If you are soloing/gearing up, you need the Conqueror damage to get through your stuff faster.

    Then you get into dungeon running, and I see two camps of people who run GF: people who want to pure tank versus the people who want to DPS, but only tank because they want to learn the fundamentals.

    For the former group, it's not hard to make an effective tank build. I would argue even that the build doesn't even matter. You just need Shield, ITF, ET, Tab Mark, a mainhand/offhand, and optionally Fighter's Recovery to have an effective tank setup. You have access to all of those tools regardless of the build or gear. Conqueror does have the small edge in aggroing, which may be helpful to more timid players who want to focus on their defensive tactics rather than having to worry about controlling the enemy.

    For the latter group, you want to invest in gear that will ultimately serve your build in endgame so you don't need to make purchases later. Since DPS GF gear is expensive and a tanking setup is not, I feel it is easier and more cost effective to use tank powers/gear with a Conqueror build. I highly doubt teams will notice the difference anyways.
    Thanks. Really appreciate the time you take to respond to stuff on the forums, here and in other threads.

    Regarding the weapons, I don't have access to SH weapons (small guild, no master crafters) although haven't checked on AH for them (will do that tonight), so I was wondering about the M11 Aboleth set vs any of the M13 weapon sets.


    My tank / buff loadout is an IV tact. The only advantage I see over say a Conq tact is threatening rush and the ease of marking mobs and double/triple marking bosses. Mobs / trash marking isn't a critical issue as its bosses that really count. Does double or triple marking targets make a significant difference? I'm guessing the answer is no otherwise you would have that incorporated into your guide.

    methinks I'll be making a conq spec build in the near future
    Post edited by lantern22 on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    lantern22 said:



    Regarding the weapons, I don't have access to SH weapons (small guild, no master crafters) although haven't checked on AH for them (will do that tonight), so I was wondering about the M11 Aboleth set vs any of the M13 weapon sets.

    In terms of a pure Tactician setup, you won't notice a difference between an Aboleth set vs. any of the Mod13 weapons. You get extra weapon damage on the Mod13 weapons, helping with aggro, but I suspect you are experienced enough at GF that using a weapon with Relic tier damage poses no issues to your aggro capabilities.

    However, that's not to say the Mod13 weapon sets don't have a use for you. Since you plan to make a Conqueror build in the future, I'd suggest getting a Primal weapon set, so you don't have to buy another one later.
    lantern22 said:


    I'm guessing the answer is no otherwise you would have that incorporated into your guide.

    Even though I have an IV build and find IV to have the (slightly) superior buff/debuff potential, there is actually a specific reason I didn't update with an IV build: for teaching purposes. The SM build is designed to reinforce the basics of playing a GF by "restricting" your tools, so to speak.

    On SM, you don't get Threatening Rush for easy marking and are forced to manually mark all targets yourself, or cast ET in a sea of enemies, and shield all their hits. This forces you to learn marking mechanics, or learn all the mob spawning locations to pre-emptively get mark and aggro them to your location.

    Using SM for Steel Grace also emphasizes the importance of movement and positioning. You don't get Rush to stay on the enemies, you need to manually move into aggro range. I want people to learn that they need to learn how to manipulate enemies to an advantageous position (see: Tab Mark) rather than simply charging to the boss to stay in aggro range.
    lantern22 said:


    Does double or triple marking targets make a significant difference?

    Not really.

    According to Ryu et. al, Daunting Challenge multiprocs from TR/ET/Tab Mark. But the way I see it, there are so many common sources to reduce enemy damage (Feytouched, Shepherd's Devotion, almost everything relevant on DC, buff/debuff weapon enchants) that the extra Daunting Challenge procs are unnoticeable in the grand scheme of things.
    lantern22 said:


    My tank / buff loadout is an IV tact. The only advantage I see over say a Conq tact is threatening rush and the ease of marking mobs and double/triple marking bosses. Mobs / trash marking isn't a critical issue as its bosses that really count.

    On my specific IV setup, I actually run it slightly differently compared to my Swordmaster setup.

    I take the standout Tactician feats as usual (Pin, Daunting Challenge, United, Inspiring Leader, violation of common sense capstone), but I go for Iron Focus in the Protector tree instead of Jagged Blades. I also swap in Frontline Surge in place of Enforced Threat, Indomitable Strength instead of VM, use Enhanced Mark in place of Steel Grace, and pick up the Enhanced Mark offhand bonus.

    I get my Crushing Pin placements with Indomitable Strength and Frontline Surge.
    I get my AoE aggro power with Iron Focus + Frontline Surge.
    I have AoE marking done with Rush and manual marking.

    What I gain over Swordmaster is the Enhanced Mark debuff (5% damage increasing debuff) and Indomitable Strength's damage reducing debuff (yes, it works, unlike the GWF's). Not much of an extra advantage, but it's something.

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:



    On my specific IV setup, I actually run it slightly differently compared to my Swordmaster setup.

    I take the standout Tactician feats as usual (Pin, Daunting Challenge, United, Inspiring Leader, violation of common sense capstone), but I go for Iron Focus in the Protector tree instead of Jagged Blades. I also swap in Frontline Surge in place of Enforced Threat, Indomitable Strength instead of VM, use Enhanced Mark in place of Steel Grace, and pick up the Enhanced Mark offhand bonus.

    I get my Crushing Pin placements with Indomitable Strength and Frontline Surge.
    I get my AoE aggro power with Iron Focus + Frontline Surge.
    I have AoE marking done with Rush and manual marking.

    What I gain over Swordmaster is the Enhanced Mark debuff (5% damage increasing debuff) and Indomitable Strength's damage reducing debuff (yes, it works, unlike the GWF's). Not much of an extra advantage, but it's something.

    Interesting. Never noticed Iron Focus, always been distracted by Shield Defence but probably don't need the extra defence anymore anyways.

    In group play I've generally avoided front line surge for the knockback (even thought its pretty minor)

    interesting.

    Thnx, some food for thought there definately
  • spectrekot#5644 spectrekot Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    After 3-5 months of hard work, fact checking, skipping lectures, goofing off, and spending more time on this guide than on my essays...


    I present to the Neverwinter community my Tactician GF guide!

    This is a tank based GF oriented for newer players, as some of the old guides (Fatshroom or Rockstar) are not up to date.

    I'm not a perfect GF, but I have tried to answer as many things as I can, as well as be as comprehensive as I can be with my limited math skills.


    Link:https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQerljT25qzzA1U-RNRG1zF46pJogJN2tArmCJqMDx8Hjm4a0JRE7CS6-4YwkNd_niDFMigp79vl4FP/pub

    Tiny URL:
    https://goo.gl/SfHYni


    Big shoutouts to @thefabricant for his maths skills and fact checking as well as @michela123 for her grammar OCD as well as her debuff spreadsheets!


    Any questions you guys might have and you can drop them in this thread or in an ingame email. I can learn from you guys as much as you guys can learn from me.

    (Also, if you couldn't tell, I'm a huge dork for classic Fire Emblem. Sue me.)



    Latest Update(s):

    • Updated for Mod13
    • Something about calculating DR with Armor Specialization
    • Added more information on the Earthtreaders
    Human it is best race for tactic?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,373 Arc User
    takashi51 said:

    Human it is best race for tactic?

    Drow.

    For its racial Darkfire debuff.

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