lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I read through all 55 pages (ok skimmed) of the Mod 10 thread on HR changes earlier today to find the post from Sandy about PB change being a nerf to pve. After finishing I once again came to the conclusion that PG isn't the issue here but rather PB.
Regarding PB, most buffs and debuffs are calculated post-mitigation, so PB doing pre-mitigated damage means Combat HRs are losing a big chunk of damage in pve - Sandy mentioned as much as 50% although I'm not sure about that figure.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I read through all 55 pages (ok skimmed) of the Mod 10 thread on HR changes earlier today to find the post from Sandy about PB change being a nerf to pve. After finishing I once again came to the conclusion that PG isn't the issue here but rather PB.
Regarding PB, most buffs and debuffs are calculated post-mitigation, so PB doing pre-mitigated damage means Combat HRs are losing a big chunk of damage in pve - Sandy mentioned as much as 50% although I'm not sure about that figure.
Yes, im a combat HR specd for pve, and piercing blades makes you lose damage when theres damage resistence reduction, damage resistence reduction is what makes all classes hit for millions against tiamat or demogorgon, it looks like this: Your indomitable battle strike deals 1'000'000 damage (200'000). So your IBS get buffed from 200k to 1kk thanks to damage reduction that is being stacked, but with piercing blades looks like this: Your Throned Strike deals 250'000 damage (50'000), your piercing blade deals 25'000 damage. Here piercing blades should do 125k damage but is dealing only 25k because it didn't get buffed by damage resistence reduction. In this case, we are losing 40% of our potential damage
Every class should have a spec that is optimized for pve and one for PvP. Piercing damage is not in the game for pve reasons considering how easy it is to get enough arp to crush in pve. Take away piercing and every HR will just switch back to trapper for PvP.
Combat can't have the best of both worlds. The longer people defend broken self buffs and over performing encounter powers (plant growth) the worse it will be when they get rebalanced. Piercing damage is the straw man that gets the blame because people don't understand where the real problem lies.
Every class should have a spec that is optimized for pve and one for PvP. Piercing damage is not in the game for pve reasons considering how easy it is to get enough arp to crush in pve. Take away piercing and every HR will just switch back to trapper for PvP.
Combat can't have the best of both worlds. The longer people defend broken self buffs and over performing encounter powers (plant growth) the worse it will be when they get rebalanced. Piercing damage is the straw man that gets the blame because people don't understand where the real problem lies.
I believe GWF's Destroyer feat build already broke both worlds. Can't blame them though. But the point is Combat (or any other feats from every class) has the right to be at least good of both worlds. In PvE right now, it's just an all-rounder build with Aspect of the Lone Wolf + one offensive class feature. You can never be the best at anything, but you're good with everything.
And please elaborate on the real problem that you stated.
The only thing I see that combat needs for area of effect on encounters to be reduced for combat HR in PVP only. TBT I just don't see them spending the time to do that either. Other than that HRs are fine as they are. I heard over and over get rid of HR roots and cc in PVP when they did you still are not happy. No matter what when a class gets improved some ones not going to like it.PG is only over powered by buffs and prone from lion mount . and so are every other encounter used with the super mounts
Every class should have a spec that is optimized for pve and one for PvP. Piercing damage is not in the game for pve reasons considering how easy it is to get enough arp to crush in pve. Take away piercing and every HR will just switch back to trapper for PvP.
Combat can't have the best of both worlds. The longer people defend broken self buffs and over performing encounter powers (plant growth) the worse it will be when they get rebalanced. Piercing damage is the straw man that gets the blame because people don't understand where the real problem lies.
I believe GWF's Destroyer feat build already broke both worlds. Can't blame them though. But the point is Combat (or any other feats from every class) has the right to be at least good of both worlds. In PvE right now, it's just an all-rounder build with Aspect of the Lone Wolf + one offensive class feature. You can never be the best at anything, but you're good with everything.
And please elaborate on the real problem that you stated.
The only thing I see that combat needs for area of effect on encounters to be reduced for combat HR in PVP only. TBT I just don't see them spending the time to do that either. Other than that HRs are fine as they are. I heard over and over get rid of HR roots and cc in PVP when they did you still are not happy. No matter what when a class gets improved some ones not going to like it.PG is only over powered by buffs and prone from lion mount . and so are every other encounter used with the super mounts
1. They didn't get rid of HR roots in pvp..... The reason you don't see them in PVP right now is because 90% of the HR players are combat in PVP not trappers. A good trapper can perma lock you still unless you are wearing an elven. If you think combat HRs are balanced right now in PVP ed: I politely disagree.
2. GWFs don't have the best of both worlds, they have the one and only spec that is used for everything (destroyer) simply because the other two are not viable for anything. It's been like this for a very long time because the class hasn't received any attention since the beginning of mod 6 when they increased weapon damage and removed the damage reduction on multiple targets for at-wills. Still destroyer over performs for pve and underperforms for pvp vs. other classes, which doesn't really line up with the state of HRs. HRs have two viable pvp specs at the moment, combat and trapper, both of which are extremely strong, combat being the standout for both pve and pvp. This is problematic as it funnels players into one build path, whereas GWF don't even have a choice they have to spec destroyer. Apples and oranges.
3. As for what the problem is, read the forums and earlier in this thread. Self buffs ala rogues FS and over powered encounter damage (PG) is where the issue is. Piercing damage is merely a catalyst.
Havnt kept up with HR changes in several modules. But what I CAN share is the initial intent behind piercing damage.
I feel like most players that play NW today were not around when they invented piercing blades and the rationale behind it, so this may help with proposals.
It was initially (and maybe still is) piercing because they didnt want it double dip in tenacity in PVP.
So in PVP lets say with tenacity and DR, you deal 1000 damage but its mitigated down to 200.
Well the piercing blades would proc off this post mitigation number (200) and proc for whatever % (40?). They wanted to make it piercing because they didnt ALSO want it to then get hurt again by tenacity/DR by making the PB hit (80 in this case) be further hurt again down to 32. That would defeat the purpose and not add enough damage.
So INSTEAD of making it (piercing blade) proc off pre-mitigated damage for 40%, and then hurt by tenacity, they decided to make it off the POST-mitigated damage, but made it piercing damage, so it didnt double dip with tenacity.
They did it this way because back then HR was performing "fine" in relation to PVE but was lacking damage in PVP, so they didnt want to buff the PVE HR but wanted to buff the PVP HR to make it stronger. If they would have made it pre-DR proc and non piercing back then, HR would have been too strong in PVE and about the same in PVP. Well, this all worked fine when HR was release... but....
Fast forward to today, and now its just a cluster F... They honestly just need to re-design the feat for now. Its causing too many issues in both PVP and PVE.
Take away piercing and every HR will just switch back to trapper for PvP.
You mean the useless support trapper build from the last couple of mods that couldn't kill anything at all in PvP without help..? The one that pretty much made HRs die out completely as a class in pvp..? Oh yeah, I'd just love to do that again. Oh, hang on, no, I would rather just delete the game.
With pvp being the premade stompfest it is right now, HRs can happily stay right where they are. If, and only if, soloQ gets permanently implemented, I'd accept a slight nerf to either piercing or plantgrowth.
1. They didn't get rid of HR roots in pvp..... The reason you don't see them in PVP right now is because 90% of the HR players are combat in PVP not trappers. A good trapper can perma lock you still unless you are wearing an elven. If you think combat HRs are balanced right now in PVP you have your head in the sand
my head is far from in the sand PG is simple leave area of red some are dim witted and still stand their that's not HR fault and other than lion of GF nothing ccs players any more due to EB so climb of your high horse
Lol, boar's-charge. That also paralyzes us for a second, if it connects at all. And the ranged is a pretty useless defence buff. Haven't used that since mod 3. Up to date as ever clonk..?
Trapper support builds last mod were not useless and still bring some of the strongest control in the game in this mod. You don't have to be #1 on kills in order to be strong in PvP. A good oppressor CW or trapper HR bring far more utility than simply a damage dealer.
The whole point being having a class that arguably does the best damage in PvP against all classes and can also have some of the best control in a different spec is not a good thing. I hate to say it but GWFs have a legitimate concern regarding the burst output considering the fact that they really have no counter to it.
Also this whole leave the red thing is a pretty weak argument considering how you have to stand in a certain spot in order to cap nodes. Standing outside wouldn't be so bad if PG didn't cover almost the entire node making this problematic.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Nothing to see here.. Piercing damage is ok
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Trapper support builds last mod were not useless and still bring some of the strongest control in the game in this mod. You don't have to be #1 on kills in order to be strong in PvP. A good oppressor CW or trapper HR bring far more utility than simply a damage dealer.
The whole point being having a class that arguably does the best damage in PvP against all classes and can also have some of the best control in a different spec is not a good thing. I hate to say it but GWFs have a legitimate concern regarding the burst output considering the fact that they really have no counter to it.
Also this whole leave the red thing is a pretty weak argument considering how you have to stand in a certain spot in order to cap nodes. Standing outside wouldn't be so bad if PG didn't cover almost the entire node making this problematic.
Sure, a control based trapper build is indeed, very useful. However it is only useful if there is someone ready to make use of the control they supply. i.e. a premade. Semi or full.
Not to mention ofc., pvp being what it is now, a premade doesn't need strategy, tactics, or control-dps units to win anymore in 90% of matches. Ergo, trapper/controller builds are not worth investing in, if said Hr always queues with a pre made, as they are at best redundant, and at worst superfluous.
If said HR soloqueues, then again a trapper/controller build is useless, because most of the time you'll be up against a pre made of some sort, with team mates who are either too inexperienced, or too lower item level to take advantage of the control you provide. And alone, well, you die.
Atm. killer combat builds are the only viable choice. If pre made, they can slaughter away with their friends. Solo, they can create a reasonable amount of panic on mid and tank a decent amount of damage at the same time, allowing lesser experienced teams some breathing space. And hold nodes 1or 3 against 1 or 2 enemy toons, allowing the other 4 teammates to focus mid.
Plantgrowth does not cover a node, thorn ward or split the sky does, both deal less than lethal damage. Also, for whatever hairbrained reason, plantgrowth roots... do not bind. So yes, "run out of the red zone" does actually remain an option.
Trapper support builds last mod were not useless and still bring some of the strongest control in the game in this mod. You don't have to be #1 on kills in order to be strong in PvP. A good oppressor CW or trapper HR bring far more utility than simply a damage dealer.
The whole point being having a class that arguably does the best damage in PvP against all classes and can also have some of the best control in a different spec is not a good thing. I hate to say it but GWFs have a legitimate concern regarding the burst output considering the fact that they really have no counter to it.
Also this whole leave the red thing is a pretty weak argument considering how you have to stand in a certain spot in order to cap nodes. Standing outside wouldn't be so bad if PG didn't cover almost the entire node making this problematic.
If said HR soloqueues, then again a trapper/controller build is useless, because most of the time you'll be up against a pre made of some sort, with team mates who are either too inexperienced, or too lower item level to take advantage of the control you provide. And alone, well, you die.
Atm. killer combat builds are the only viable choice. If pre made, they can slaughter away with their friends. Solo, they can create a reasonable amount of panic on mid and tank a decent amount of damage at the same time, allowing lesser experienced teams some breathing space. And hold nodes 1or 3 against 1 or 2 enemy toons, allowing the other 4 teammates to focus mid.
Plantgrowth does not cover a node, thorn ward or split the sky does, both deal less than lethal damage. Also, for whatever hairbrained reason, plantgrowth roots... do not bind. So yes, "run out of the red zone" does actually remain an option.
Any build or class is useless when your up against a premade with bad teammates. This is an issue with the matchmaking system, not an underperforming spec. Combat is not the only viable choice as it requires control in order to shine. If a player isn't CCed it's clearing potential is greatly diminished against good players with gear. A good trapper can tank a node just as well, with the added bonus of having good control to help the team. Both specs are viable. Just because one is FOTM at present because the damage it deals is over performing doesn't mean the other one is not.
Also I never said PG covers the whole node, I said it almost does. It has the same radius as smoke bomb, which is quite large considering the amount of damage it deals. Now this really becomes a problem when you have two combat HRs stacking two PGs on a node. Anyone that's ever played a dom match against a two TR team knows how annoying this is because you literally have no where to stand when trying to cap. Well it's the same principle except your forced to stand in a circle that deals massive damage because you have no where else to go if your trying to win the game.
Your statements do put into perspective what the problem is though. Combat is over performing so much that players are given the impression that it is the only "viable" way to go, and have less incentive to explore other options. Keeping on topic, piercing damage isn't the reason for this. In this post I made a lot of comparisons to TRs because it is headed in the same direction. Much like first strike is the cause large hits for a players entire health bar (one shot), combat is benefitting from similar self buffs in the same way. As I said piercing damage is merely a small part of this problem.
50% reduction on our main damage dealer in PvP. 50%. And a blow to the pve HRs too. Nice job everyone.
Well, that's HRs nerfed well and truly, wonder who's next on the block..?
Repel CWs Increase its cooldown by 50%. Being unable to actually set foot on a node is unbalanced. Reduce GF stamina block by 50%. Given they are the number one burst damage dealers in PvP, being able to turtle up is unbalanced. Reduce TR ap gain by 50%, spamming dailies is unbalanced.
Etc. All of you know exactly where your strengths are. And yet... you took it upon yourselves to nerf one of the rarest classes in PvP, just as it was taking off again.
It funny how the minority cry for nerfs and the devs push forward with them in short time. When the majority cries nerf, the devs take forever to make a change.
This game will never be balanced in both pve and pvp.
Guild: Ruthless Character: Vendetta
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
It funny how the pvp community for nerfs and the devs push forward with them in short time. When the pve community cries nerf, the devs take forever to make a change.
FTFY.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
50% reduction on our main damage dealer in PvP. 50%. And a blow to the pve HRs too. Nice job everyone.
Well, that's HRs nerfed well and truly, wonder who's next on the block..?
Repel CWs Increase its cooldown by 50%. Being unable to actually set foot on a node is unbalanced. Reduce GF stamina block by 50%. Given they are the number one burst damage dealers in PvP, being able to turtle up is unbalanced. Reduce TR ap gain by 50%, spamming dailies is unbalanced.
Etc. All of you know exactly where your strengths are. And yet... you took it upon yourselves to nerf one of the rarest classes in PvP, just as it was taking off again.
GG.
Broken items eventually get fixed. They knew that combat HRs were over performing, and if you watched the dev stream that @mimicking#6533 participated in you would have heard him mention it. The writing was/is on the wall. Combat will still be a good choice in pvp despite PG being reduced, it just won't be "mod 5 lashing blade" good. Also if something is an issue it will get tagged and addressed at some point when they have the time to focus on it. Rogues time will be coming soon when first strike get a hard look. Obviously pvp is not their main concern but certain things are broken more than others and need to be addressed first.
Comments
Regarding PB, most buffs and debuffs are calculated post-mitigation, so PB doing pre-mitigated damage means Combat HRs are losing a big chunk of damage in pve - Sandy mentioned as much as 50% although I'm not sure about that figure.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
So your IBS get buffed from 200k to 1kk thanks to damage reduction that is being stacked, but with piercing blades looks like this:
Your Throned Strike deals 250'000 damage (50'000), your piercing blade deals 25'000 damage.
Here piercing blades should do 125k damage but is dealing only 25k because it didn't get buffed by damage resistence reduction. In this case, we are losing 40% of our potential damage
Combat can't have the best of both worlds. The longer people defend broken self buffs and over performing encounter powers (plant growth) the worse it will be when they get rebalanced. Piercing damage is the straw man that gets the blame because people don't understand where the real problem lies.
And please elaborate on the real problem that you stated.
2. GWFs don't have the best of both worlds, they have the one and only spec that is used for everything (destroyer) simply because the other two are not viable for anything. It's been like this for a very long time because the class hasn't received any attention since the beginning of mod 6 when they increased weapon damage and removed the damage reduction on multiple targets for at-wills. Still destroyer over performs for pve and underperforms for pvp vs. other classes, which doesn't really line up with the state of HRs. HRs have two viable pvp specs at the moment, combat and trapper, both of which are extremely strong, combat being the standout for both pve and pvp. This is problematic as it funnels players into one build path, whereas GWF don't even have a choice they have to spec destroyer. Apples and oranges.
3. As for what the problem is, read the forums and earlier in this thread. Self buffs ala rogues FS and over powered encounter damage (PG) is where the issue is. Piercing damage is merely a catalyst.
I feel like most players that play NW today were not around when they invented piercing blades and the rationale behind it, so this may help with proposals.
It was initially (and maybe still is) piercing because they didnt want it double dip in tenacity in PVP.
So in PVP lets say with tenacity and DR, you deal 1000 damage but its mitigated down to 200.
Well the piercing blades would proc off this post mitigation number (200) and proc for whatever % (40?). They wanted to make it piercing because they didnt ALSO want it to then get hurt again by tenacity/DR by making the PB hit (80 in this case) be further hurt again down to 32. That would defeat the purpose and not add enough damage.
So INSTEAD of making it (piercing blade) proc off pre-mitigated damage for 40%, and then hurt by tenacity, they decided to make it off the POST-mitigated damage, but made it piercing damage, so it didnt double dip with tenacity.
They did it this way because back then HR was performing "fine" in relation to PVE but was lacking damage in PVP, so they didnt want to buff the PVE HR but wanted to buff the PVP HR to make it stronger. If they would have made it pre-DR proc and non piercing back then, HR would have been too strong in PVE and about the same in PVP. Well, this all worked fine when HR was release... but....
Fast forward to today, and now its just a cluster F... They honestly just need to re-design the feat for now. Its causing too many issues in both PVP and PVE.
You mean the useless support trapper build from the last couple of mods that couldn't kill anything at all in PvP without help..? The one that pretty much made HRs die out completely as a class in pvp..? Oh yeah, I'd just love to do that again. Oh, hang on, no, I would rather just delete the game.
With pvp being the premade stompfest it is right now, HRs can happily stay right where they are. If, and only if, soloQ gets permanently implemented, I'd accept a slight nerf to either piercing or plantgrowth.
1. They didn't get rid of HR roots in pvp..... The reason you don't see them in PVP right now is because 90% of the HR players are combat in PVP not trappers. A good trapper can perma lock you still unless you are wearing an elven. If you think combat HRs are balanced right now in PVP you have your head in the sand
my head is far from in the sand PG is simple leave area of red some are dim witted and still stand their that's not HR fault and other than lion of GF nothing ccs players any more due to EB so climb of your high horse
Trapper support builds last mod were not useless and still bring some of the strongest control in the game in this mod. You don't have to be #1 on kills in order to be strong in PvP. A good oppressor CW or trapper HR bring far more utility than simply a damage dealer.
The whole point being having a class that arguably does the best damage in PvP against all classes and can also have some of the best control in a different spec is not a good thing. I hate to say it but GWFs have a legitimate concern regarding the burst output considering the fact that they really have no counter to it.
Also this whole leave the red thing is a pretty weak argument considering how you have to stand in a certain spot in order to cap nodes. Standing outside wouldn't be so bad if PG didn't cover almost the entire node making this problematic.
Piercing damage is ok
Not to mention ofc., pvp being what it is now, a premade doesn't need strategy, tactics, or control-dps units to win anymore in 90% of matches. Ergo, trapper/controller builds are not worth investing in, if said Hr always queues with a pre made, as they are at best redundant, and at worst superfluous.
If said HR soloqueues, then again a trapper/controller build is useless, because most of the time you'll be up against a pre made of some sort, with team mates who are either too inexperienced, or too lower item level to take advantage of the control you provide. And alone, well, you die.
Atm. killer combat builds are the only viable choice. If pre made, they can slaughter away with their friends. Solo, they can create a reasonable amount of panic on mid and tank a decent amount of damage at the same time, allowing lesser experienced teams some breathing space. And hold nodes 1or 3 against 1 or 2 enemy toons, allowing the other 4 teammates to focus mid.
Plantgrowth does not cover a node, thorn ward or split the sky does, both deal less than lethal damage. Also, for whatever hairbrained reason, plantgrowth roots... do not bind. So yes, "run out of the red zone" does actually remain an option.
Also I never said PG covers the whole node, I said it almost does. It has the same radius as smoke bomb, which is quite large considering the amount of damage it deals. Now this really becomes a problem when you have two combat HRs stacking two PGs on a node. Anyone that's ever played a dom match against a two TR team knows how annoying this is because you literally have no where to stand when trying to cap. Well it's the same principle except your forced to stand in a circle that deals massive damage because you have no where else to go if your trying to win the game.
Your statements do put into perspective what the problem is though. Combat is over performing so much that players are given the impression that it is the only "viable" way to go, and have less incentive to explore other options. Keeping on topic, piercing damage isn't the reason for this. In this post I made a lot of comparisons to TRs because it is headed in the same direction. Much like first strike is the cause large hits for a players entire health bar (one shot), combat is benefitting from similar self buffs in the same way. As I said piercing damage is merely a small part of this problem.
Well, that's HRs nerfed well and truly, wonder who's next on the block..?
Repel CWs Increase its cooldown by 50%. Being unable to actually set foot on a node is unbalanced.
Reduce GF stamina block by 50%. Given they are the number one burst damage dealers in PvP, being able to turtle up is unbalanced.
Reduce TR ap gain by 50%, spamming dailies is unbalanced.
Etc. All of you know exactly where your strengths are. And yet... you took it upon yourselves to nerf one of the rarest classes in PvP, just as it was taking off again.
GG.
This game will never be balanced in both pve and pvp.
Character: Vendetta
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Character: Vendetta