If you look at saboteur rogues with 100% piercing for comparison vs the current combat HR you can begin to see where the true problem lies. Sabo does pathetic damage even though it has 100% piercing (shocking has nothing to do with the Paragon path) whereas combat HRs overperform with only 50%. The crux of the issue is the bonus damage from the capstone (flurry) and the damage that plant growth does.
Simple fix would be to reduce the damage of plant growth and nerf the bonus damage from flurry. Piercing damage once again becomes the scape goat when in reality runaway self buffs (similar to pre nerf into the fray) in combination with piercing damage is the real cause. This is also the problem with TR SE as the insane self buff from first strike in combination with the piercing damage is what leads to the dreaded one shot. A TR without first strike is generally just a minor annoyance that can only kill you if your health is low.
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I'm sorry but another nerf to PG (five-cap target happened in Mod 10) will once again gut the Combat HR in pve so no thanks. I'll happily accept a nerf to PB but reducing the damage output of PG just for the sake of pvp? Screw that. It's the ONE high-damaging encounter we have. Funny how PG was a non-issue before Mod 10 - its PB making it an issue now.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
It's not gutting as you still have two other viable specs for pve. Also since HRs can now pretty much ignore the armor pen stat, your still going to have high damage as you can put those stat points in crit, power, etc. which still makes combat viable.
Overperforming powers and feats are always a headache to balance, but piercing damage does have its place for those tankier classes like gwfs, gfs, paladins and shouldn't be removed. What shouldn't happen is self buffs and powers that grant insane levels of burst damage and encounters that deal stupidly high burst hits (we all remember how bad lashing blade was in mod 5).
Also it's pretty bad practice to have a spec that is really good for pve and PvP as it discouages diversity in builds. There should be specs and Paragon paths that are optimized for both but not one that is good for all. That's just bad design.
It's not gutting as you still have two other viable specs for pve. Also since HRs can now pretty much ignore the armor pen stat, your still going to have high damage as you can put those stat points in crit, power, etc. which still makes combat viable.
Overperforming powers and feats are always a headache to balance, but piercing damage does have its place for those tankier classes like gwfs, gfs, paladins and shouldn't be removed. What shouldn't happen is self buffs and powers that grant insane levels of burst damage and encounters that deal stupidly high burst hits (we all remember how bad lashing blade was in mod 5).
Also it's pretty bad practice to have a spec that is really good for pve and PvP as it discouages diversity in builds. There should be specs and Paragon paths that are optimized for both but not one that is good for all. That's just bad design.
I'm sorry but JUST HELL NO. I've seen Combat raised from the ashes after 5-6 Mods out in the cold pve-wise. I've stuck with it regardless (oh the ridicule I received) because I love the spec and finally when it is performing well in pve you want to tell me there is still Archery and Trapper left open to me? I HAMSTER despise Trapper and I already have an Archer. And it was okay to have Trapper as king in both pve and pvp for 5-6 Mods but when it happens to Combat the naysayers just won't have it? Fix piercing damage so it doesn't get buffed by other sources but asking for our one and only actual damaging encounter to be nerfed doesn't sit well with me at all when other classes have handful of powerful encounters at their disposal.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
If you look at saboteur rogues with 100% piercing for comparison vs the current combat HR you can begin to see where the true problem lies. Sabo does pathetic damage even though it has 100% piercing (shocking has nothing to do with the Paragon path) whereas combat HRs overperform with only 50%. The crux of the issue is the bonus damage from the capstone (flurry) and the damage that plant growth does.
Simple fix would be to reduce the damage of plant growth and nerf the bonus damage from flurry. Piercing damage once again becomes the scape goat when in reality runaway self buffs (similar to pre nerf into the fray) in combination with piercing damage is the real cause. This is also the problem with TR SE as the insane self buff from first strike in combination with the piercing damage is what leads to the dreaded one shot. A TR without first strike is generally just a minor annoyance that can only kill you if your health is low.
Nerf the bonus damage from flurry? Do you realize that Flurry only buffs melee at-wills and not encounters. Melee encounters only grants Flurry. Melee at-wills are the only ones that deal Flurry damage.
Even if a HR lands a PG on your face, if he/she didn't use any at-wills, it'll be only PG damage + piercing.
Battle Crazed gives 15% melee damage at full stack.
Scything Blades deal 1/2/3/4/5% more Damage, and an additional 1/2/3/4/5% more Damage for each foe within 25 feet.
Lucky Blades gives 15% more encounter damage.
Guess where all that damage comes from. Aside from Flurry.
It's not gutting as you still have two other viable specs for pve. Also since HRs can now pretty much ignore the armor pen stat, your still going to have high damage as you can put those stat points in crit, power, etc. which still makes combat viable.
Overperforming powers and feats are always a headache to balance, but piercing damage does have its place for those tankier classes like gwfs, gfs, paladins and shouldn't be removed. What shouldn't happen is self buffs and powers that grant insane levels of burst damage and encounters that deal stupidly high burst hits (we all remember how bad lashing blade was in mod 5).
Also it's pretty bad practice to have a spec that is really good for pve and PvP as it discouages diversity in builds. There should be specs and Paragon paths that are optimized for both but not one that is good for all. That's just bad design.
I hate Trappers. And Archery is still being hated by many support toons because they're too far away etc etc due to PuG Archer ranger friends. And also because of Trappers and other classes always preaching about the greatness of the spec, no one even bothered to know how PG actually works.
I personally don't think piercing blade should be procing off of blade hurricane, and should only proc off of actual at-wills/encounters/daily powers, with that said I'm torn because if it's removed, the combat spec will be under performing in pve and pvp. I don't have a problem with the way PG is working at all. Stay out of the HAMSTER red. It's not that hard. Fixing the combat spec will not be easy and needs some serious thought put into it so it still performs in pvp and performs better in pve, because I think it's still under performing a bit in pve.
If a class can 1 shot they should be able to get 1 shotted . but tr can't die and hr's have enough deflection to give to charity. No one else finds it a bit dull that the rogue type classes or really defensive? Kind of takes the point out of gwfs completely if they can last longer and do more damage
you all still miss the point the BIS in PVP are going to roll over every thing no matter what. Im 4.2 il and Combat and maxed everything I can do but don't have the big PVP guild boons or legendary combat mountand can barely dent the BIs players like Saber and Icy. When you get Rooks, Joc, Hero or Minerva they are Bis Super stacked power and 170 to 200k Hit points pvp guild boons And legendary combat mounts they gonna produce the big numbers but the average HR @ 4k cant produce the magic numbers every one is throwing around ecept again the pug players with PVE builds and every one is one shotting them is why they all complain. Im not against changing but anything done that gives HR a better damage is going to be complained about and called OP. I feel that piercing Damage is mostly over qqed about and the numbers are exaggerated by big buffs that would do the same to every other encounter they use. I do think that the area effect in pvp FOR hr AND tr is to large and should be reduced 50% FOR PVP ONLY. The last thing we need in PVP is less damage I 1vs 1 a lot of Bis and there is no way to beat them now but at least I dent them now.
you all still miss the point the BIS in PVP are going to roll over every thing no matter what. Im 4.2 il and Combat and maxed everything I can do but don't have the big PVP guild boons or legendary combat mountand can barely dent the BIs players like Saber and Icy. When you get Rooks, Joc, Hero or Minerva they are Bis Super stacked power and 170 to 200k Hit points pvp guild boons And legendary combat mounts they gonna produce the big numbers but the average HR @ 4k cant produce the magic numbers every one is throwing around ecept again the pug players with PVE builds and every one is one shotting them is why they all complain. Im not against changing but anything done that gives HR a better damage is going to be complained about and called OP. I feel that piercing Damage is mostly over qqed about and the numbers are exaggerated by big buffs that would do the same to every other encounter they use. I do think that the area effect in pvp FOR hr AND tr is to large and should be reduced 50% FOR PVP ONLY. The last thing we need in PVP is less damage I 1vs 1 a lot of Bis and there is no way to beat them now but at least I dent them now.
You make a good point, at bis level with r20 guild boons, legendary mount, and epic insignas, the only class that has a hard time with the HR is GWFs. HRs can't kill a DC or OP, CW and TR have a ton of CC and ends in stale mate, SW is very fast and has good heals ends in a stale mate. GF does a ton of damage with a large amount of CC and has an advantage over HRs. Combat HR vs combat HR is a stale mate. GWFs have a chance to beat the HR, but they have a slight disadvantage. The GWF tends to run away before they die anyway. Which is a form of defense in my opinion. GWF isn't king of the hill anymore and they don't like it. QQing is inevitable!!
Initially, the HR piercing was a shock to everyone, these funny little bow carriers who we pretty much ignored for the last couple of mods because at worst they'd tickle you in PvP... suddenly started to be dangerous.
It was like being killed by a bunny.
Now, every experienced pvper has assimilated the killer bunny concept, and changed build and behaviour accordingly, and yet still... still blubs all over the forum for a nerf. The only people who get one and two shot by high level HRs in PvP these days are people who would get one and two shot by any of the striker classes anyway. I've been up against icy, and saber in mod 10, with my 4k combat crit build, and nope, didn't kill them. Drove them away sure. Killed them if they got cc'd at the wrong moment, and sometimes got whomped if I was unfortunate too.
The HR is strong right now sure. But only in comparison to the HR past. We are a pvp one trick pony, and frankly tired of it. So tired in my case I've respecced back to pve trapper until soloQ comes back.
So you can't beat an HR one on one reliably anymore, big whoop, poor you. Grow a spine.
Theres something called overbuff no one is saying nerf hunter rangers its just really stupid how tenacity which u need for pvp and defense and deflection which u also need can just get mitigated... It just feels useless having gear now days not qqing just reasoning but of course hrs want to stay op and complain to anyone trying to reason logic
No overbuff would mean I one shot everything with no chance for the enemy to act. Looking at you TRs. The only one rotation merchants left in PvP are GFs, and even then if they're up against inexperienced players.
On equal gear, HRs damage wise, are not overpowered to the point of being unbeatable. Anyone who says they are, just doesn't play one.
I fail to see the need for any change to take place with the HR. TRs were beasts at one point and still are even after the hack they received Mods ago. So there is now a new contender(HR) and a call-out to do something about it. Until everything actually works for this class, postpone this effort to snuff the HR...
Its an adjustment for everyone and I have seen other toons do a good job adjusting. I too have to retool my HR so it can be solo-sufficient absorbing a beating until help arrives.
PvP composition is the answer for this. It was mentioned in a prior post by @jhpnw .
I'm sorry but another nerf to PG (five-cap target happened in Mod 10) will once again gut the Combat HR in pve so no thanks. I'll happily accept a nerf to PB but reducing the damage output of PG just for the sake of pvp? Screw that. It's the ONE high-damaging encounter we have. Funny how PG was a non-issue before Mod 10 - its PB making it an issue now.
Ha ha lol, we are right back to what I was saying before ALL this HAMSTER happened. I specifically said Plant Growth was too powerful and the only reason people were crapping on about HR's being over powered in any way. I said it months ago but PG should have had a slight damage nerf and all our other Encounter Powers should have been buffed up to make them as viable.
Plant Growth was an issue before Mod 10 to some people, making it so powerful pigeon-holed people in to using it, causing a lot of HR's just look and feel the same.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
U guys win its completely cool for a tr and hr to bypass all the defensive and deflection you build through expensive enhancements, artifacts,boons,insignia's,reinforced armor.Even the month grind to get the best pvp gear since tenacity is a jokr from se and combat hr. And hrs at will alone can shred your health on top of plant growth
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Is the HR wiping the floor clean with all classes? No. It's one class having issues with Combat HR mainly at BiS lvls and that's GWF. @clonkyo1, did you not read @jhpnw's post? He has a handle on what is currently going on in pvp, as is @jonkoca. A lot of the bitching just sounds like background noise from people who have no clue.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Wow guys, there are very few suggestions in here that actually keep it simple.
Let me say this: IF there is a problem in PvP, I certainly don't believe it's the HR or TR. I do not agree with anything that involves reworking the class. For Christ's sake, they literally just reworked it. When I PVP with a good comp, we really don't worry about the HR's and TR's. Yeah, we adjust based on who we're up against, but it's not like they steamroll us.
Fundamentally, piercing damage is always the most effective and dangerous type of damage you can face. This is because there is no defence against it.
Any changes to how these offensive features work will INHERENTLY change gameplay of the classes in PvE. There is no such thing as a "nerf this but buff that" solution that doesn't interfere with PvE. That's the entire reason I suggested tenacity could offer something like piercing damage resistance. No PvE content has tenacity, so nothing in PvE gets affected.
"It's combat HR's!" "It's dunk rogues!"
NO! You're getting killed by piercing damage. IF there Is a problem, address it directly. Don't go after the classes that utilize it.
I like the idea of tenacity reducing piercing damage . Does no one see thats piercing damage ignores 3 STATS.... Defense deflection and tenacity .. If they made a class have a feat to reduce your power critical and armor pen by 50% + on them you <font color="orange">ed: wonderful</font> HRs would be the first to complain bout it. And no im very good at the game i understand whats going on so stop with the accusations that people that want piercing damage fixed is automatically bad at the game
Is the HR wiping the floor clean with all classes? No. It's one class having issues with Combat HR mainly at BiS lvls and that's GWF. @clonkyo1, did you not read @jhpnw's post? He has a handle on what is currently going on in pvp, as is @jonkoca. A lot of the bitching just sounds like background noise from people who have no clue.
What i just saw was a total of 70k proc damage from Piercing Blades within 2 secs and out from nowhere... seems legit.
EDIT And yes, i do agree that the "bitchng" comes from players who don't know how to play the game at all... mostly, from HRs whose can't build their chars propperly. This reminds me the very same "Guardian Fighter" behaviour back on our last mod: As some GFs couldn't one rotate even one shot other players, even on BiS levels, doing said feats was impossible and just "bitching from undergeared players"...
Can you please elaborate what HR encounter used against you that procs 70k damage Piercing Blades? Is that time a 1v1 situation?
Comments
Simple fix would be to reduce the damage of plant growth and nerf the bonus damage from flurry. Piercing damage once again becomes the scape goat when in reality runaway self buffs (similar to pre nerf into the fray) in combination with piercing damage is the real cause. This is also the problem with TR SE as the insane self buff from first strike in combination with the piercing damage is what leads to the dreaded one shot. A TR without first strike is generally just a minor annoyance that can only kill you if your health is low.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
It's not gutting as you still have two other viable specs for pve. Also since HRs can now pretty much ignore the armor pen stat, your still going to have high damage as you can put those stat points in crit, power, etc. which still makes combat viable.
Overperforming powers and feats are always a headache to balance, but piercing damage does have its place for those tankier classes like gwfs, gfs, paladins and shouldn't be removed. What shouldn't happen is self buffs and powers that grant insane levels of burst damage and encounters that deal stupidly high burst hits (we all remember how bad lashing blade was in mod 5).
Also it's pretty bad practice to have a spec that is really good for pve and PvP as it discouages diversity in builds. There should be specs and Paragon paths that are optimized for both but not one that is good for all. That's just bad design.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Even if a HR lands a PG on your face, if he/she didn't use any at-wills, it'll be only PG damage + piercing.
Battle Crazed gives 15% melee damage at full stack.
Scything Blades deal 1/2/3/4/5% more Damage, and an additional 1/2/3/4/5% more Damage for each foe within 25 feet.
Lucky Blades gives 15% more encounter damage.
Guess where all that damage comes from. Aside from Flurry. I hate Trappers. And Archery is still being hated by many support toons because they're too far away etc etc due to PuG Archer ranger friends. And also because of Trappers and other classes always preaching about the greatness of the spec, no one even bothered to know how PG actually works.
It was like being killed by a bunny.
Now, every experienced pvper has assimilated the killer bunny concept, and changed build and behaviour accordingly, and yet still... still blubs all over the forum for a nerf. The only people who get one and two shot by high level HRs in PvP these days are people who would get one and two shot by any of the striker classes anyway. I've been up against icy, and saber in mod 10, with my 4k combat crit build, and nope, didn't kill them. Drove them away sure. Killed them if they got cc'd at the wrong moment, and sometimes got whomped if I was unfortunate too.
The HR is strong right now sure. But only in comparison to the HR past. We are a pvp one trick pony, and frankly tired of it. So tired in my case I've respecced back to pve trapper until soloQ comes back.
So you can't beat an HR one on one reliably anymore, big whoop, poor you. Grow a spine.
On equal gear, HRs damage wise, are not overpowered to the point of being unbeatable. Anyone who says they are, just doesn't play one.
Its an adjustment for everyone and I have seen other toons do a good job adjusting. I too have to retool my HR so it can be solo-sufficient absorbing a beating until help arrives.
PvP composition is the answer for this. It was mentioned in a prior post by @jhpnw .
...my .02
Teucer (HR)
Plant Growth was an issue before Mod 10 to some people, making it so powerful pigeon-holed people in to using it, causing a lot of HR's just look and feel the same.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Again, its about the 5v5 comp.
Teucer (HR)
Teucer (HR)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Let me say this: IF there is a problem in PvP, I certainly don't believe it's the HR or TR. I do not agree with anything that involves reworking the class. For Christ's sake, they literally just reworked it. When I PVP with a good comp, we really don't worry about the HR's and TR's. Yeah, we adjust based on who we're up against, but it's not like they steamroll us.
Fundamentally, piercing damage is always the most effective and dangerous type of damage you can face. This is because there is no defence against it.
Any changes to how these offensive features work will INHERENTLY change gameplay of the classes in PvE. There is no such thing as a "nerf this but buff that" solution that doesn't interfere with PvE. That's the entire reason I suggested tenacity could offer something like piercing damage resistance. No PvE content has tenacity, so nothing in PvE gets affected.
"It's combat HR's!"
"It's dunk rogues!"
NO! You're getting killed by piercing damage. IF there Is a problem, address it directly. Don't go after the classes that utilize it.