I think that's a fair trade off, you solo queue guys can have your fun 1 week per year and we take care of the remaining year.
Yep you are as much for fair in terms of time as in terms of fighting pugs with premade teams. The term fair can be looked up I think you misunderstand the very concept of it or rather you made it extremely clear you don't even phantom the very concept of the word fair :-).
I think that's a fair trade off, you solo queue guys can have your fun 1 week per year and we take care of the remaining year.
Yep you are as much for fair in terms of time as in terms of fighting pugs with premade teams. The term fair can be looked up I think you misunderstand the very concept of it or rather you made it extremely clear you don't even phantom the very concept of the word fair :-).
I agree, he doesn't even phantom the very concept
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
You think iLvL difference explains everything. It doesn't. It's tenacity. I can OWN a 4k toon in PvE gear. What i saw during soloQ event was this: 9 times out of 10 the losing team could fight back and cap without the need for GG. It is seen in the scores: my scores during soloQ are all in the range of the thousands (2000+). What i see now is a row of "600" points (charity), cause right after soloQ i consistently meet 4k half premades or premades of fully geared PvPers.
The difference is NOTICEABLE and multiple players have already explained this to you and the others. If you still refuse to read that simple fact, it's because you don't want to accept it. PvP during soloQ was noticeably better. Period. Most players are saying this, and a couple are saying that "well, there are other issues". Which does not take away anything from the fact that soloQ made PvP more fair and fun compared to our mixed "premadefest" queue.
Nobody will EVER return to PvP when it's literally a pain to solo queue in current system. During soloQ, no matter if i was winning or losing, i would play 10+ PvP dominations just for fun. Now, i just try to do my 2 dailies and it's a PAIN cause 9 times out of 10 it's some form of 4k half premade or full premade stomping the random pick up group.
Now, given the FACT that soloQ made PvP BETTER for most players, what we need now is, as a second step, Tenacity brackets. Cause it's this stat, more than iLvL itself, that makes the biggest difference in PvP. More tenacity, also, means better gear (iLvL, BiS armors and rosegold rings, for example).
Cause, oet's say we make "iLvL brackets" as you say, in mixed queue. Now, what would happen is, in my case: - premade team full PvP gear and builds, full tenacity, PvP experience - pug team with a mix of tenacity and PvE armor dudes that go down in few hits (massive difference vs tenacity dudes in same iLvL range). Enough to make the match POINTLESS.
We just need 2 things:
-Permanent solo queue (to leave sayajin playing in his beloved pugstomping wonderland with his friends) -Tenacity brackets
Now you have improved PvP 100xtimes, and can focus on PvP class balance.
PS:Removed slight flame many PvP players just enjoy pugstomping to stroke their e-peen. And cryptic needs them to stomp pugs with their shiny BiS gear because it's the way to push pug players to spend zen to get better.
I still wouldn't joke about it cause PvP is empty now also because of pugstomping from PvP guilds. SoloQ is needed and the event proved that. It might be funny to sayajin and other guys how we discuss the matter, but you all know that premades farming mixed queue is HUGE source of problems. It multiplies the chances to get an unfair "no-contest" match.
I suggest to just stay out of PVP and just stay out of PVP forum as well. No need to spend that much energy on a dead corner of this small game. PVP was dead and the forum more or less also. So let the devs decide to just close that chapter like foundry or find solutions, and I think in this case they should just follow their customers 1 on 1, and not some PVP grandpa´s who fear to leave their premade comfort-zone
I still wouldn't joke about it cause PvP is empty now also because of pugstomping from PvP guilds. SoloQ is needed and the event proved that. It might be funny to sayajin and other guys how we discuss the matter, but you all know that premades farming mixed queue is HUGE source of problems. It multiplies the chances to get an unfair "no-contest" match.
Pando, the honest truth is they don't want to hear.
Clonkyo says he can take premades on, him and "GXG", I guess as a duo? I think the problem is deeper than just gear. With Teamspeak there is a whole nother level to the game, one which pick up groups really can't access. The players can get better gear, they can get SH boons, they can open a 1000 tiny lockboxes for a lion, but they can't access the same Teamspeak server, giving them awareness of all three nodes simultaneously. Chat doesn't compare.
Do I think they could or should make Teamspeak illegal in-game? Absolutely not. But perhaps they should carry all that organization through and develop their own league for more fair fights.
Edit: I never GG myself, sometimes I take points (no matter which side) if a GG happens. I personally dislike the charity from creeps who waste my game time.
At the moment it's lose lose in PvP. Take last night, I played 2 matches, in the first I soloQ'd, and we got put in against a pre made, one of our team took one look at the roster, and never bothered to even leave spawn. Match over in maybe a minute, trade caps for 600. Boring.
2nd match, one of my friend's pre mades was lacking a body, so I joined. Match over in a minute. We won, traded caps for 600. Boring.
This is killing the game for me. My pve gear stands at 3750. Everything but FBI is a cake walk. On a normal day I log in, grab my VIP key, open a box, do 3 quests for the latest campaign progression, q for two pvp matches. My pvp gear is 4029. A score I've spent a staggering amount of time on min/maxing over the years. PvP has always been the reason for me playing.
But right now, especially after the week of soloQ reminding me why I play the game, and emphasizing just how far pvp has fallen since the days of my first joining the game in mod2, I wonder why I bother..? It's like I built a race car in my garage, only to find the roads have gotten too bad to race on.
At the moment it's lose lose in PvP. Take last night, I played 2 matches, in the first I soloQ'd, and we got put in against a pre made, one of our team took one look at the roster, and never bothered to even leave spawn. Match over in maybe a minute, trade caps for 600. Boring.
2nd match, one of my friend's pre mades was lacking a body, so I joined. Match over in a minute. We won, traded caps for 600. Boring.
This is killing the game for me. My pve gear stands at 3750. Everything but FBI is a cake walk. On a normal day I log in, grab my VIP key, open a box, do 3 quests for the latest campaign progression, q for two pvp matches. My pvp gear is 4029. A score I've spent a staggering amount of time on min/maxing over the years. PvP has always been the reason for me playing.
But right now, especially after the week of soloQ reminding me why I play the game, and emphasizing just how far pvp has fallen since the days of my first joining the game in mod2, I wonder why I bother..? It's like I built a race car in my garage, only to find the roads have gotten too bad to race on.
Do me a favour, bring soloQ back.
the same here, as far as i understand from livestream pvp schedule is complete joke for the rest of the year. one useless duoque event, which will not be very different from what we have now. we must figure out something, force them to be a bit flexible, maybe start some poll for the beginning
*sigh* I recall the days when this clonkyo dude was just a fighter scrub and now he is one of the go to experts in regard to PVP? Meh things have seriously deteriorated.
And Clonk "that player's gear" is what a normal, free to play guy starts with in PVP. Nobody can diss him about it. The problem is the system places him in the same environment as 4k dedicated pvp players who may have cheated their way to bis or may have bought/grinded their way to bis..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I still wouldn't joke about it cause PvP is empty now also because of pugstomping from PvP guilds. SoloQ is needed and the event proved that. It might be funny to sayajin and other guys how we discuss the matter, but you all know that premades farming mixed queue is HUGE source of problems. It multiplies the chances to get an unfair "no-contest" match.
Yes, we do know that when we group up we will most likely win. The chances of hitting an actual premade are slim. The fact the devs are slow to act, have never listened to PVPers, and are continuing not to do so is representative of their practices. We still Q as groups, duos, trios, and solo like we always have.
The current format favors PVP groups over pug groups, that's simply the way it is. I have been solo Qing a lot lately, what I can tell you is that the same issues that have existed for mods still exist. 1) Horrible matchmaking 2) BIS vs Undergeared 3) Teams vs Pugs 4) Non tenacity wearing players with no enchants coming in to PVP (sometimes botting) 5) People who literally still don't understand how Domination and nodes work. 6) People who insta GG and ask for points because they just want the rewards.
I get just as annoyed about players who still think fighting from the pillars is acceptable or running back and forth across the bridge is a legit way to PVP. There are players who are still just lurking around hoping to get a kill and don't contribute. These are just as much a problem as premades, but they won't get mentioned here most likely because people just get mad that the best way to play the current meta is in groups with well geared players, who are hopefully skilled at their classes as well. It's just the way it is mate.
Now, to answer your "I still wouldn't joke"... Why not? What else can you do when the devs turn a deaf ear to their players? Solo Q even without coming up against a premade is still a joke as you are just as likely to have some player in blue and green PVE gear with no enchants on your team as you are to still have a 4K IL team against you that the Q matched without being a premade.
I will joke and enjoy what I like, and I find some people's comments humorous, I also find it comical that some of you guys can't "phantom" sarcasm which kinda makes it even funnier.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Yes, and players here are saying that a "solo Q" will "alleviate" the problem it which, as we all saw during the "SoloQ" event, will still happend.
Yes, we are saying SoloQ *alleviates* the problem, not cures it altogether. On mean and on average, matches were demonstrably *better*. Alot more could be done, however.
We both agree on the tenacity problem, for example. If the devs think PVP needs padded walls and floors, pad them the same for everybody. Don't mix a stat up into that.
I feel like you are not even reading sometimes. You wrote me "just grab a group of geared pugs". Seriously??? Your solution is, basically "form a premade of your own, with geared players". Thank you Mr. Obvious. We didn't know that if we form a geared premade of our own we can beat other premades.
But most of the playerbase just queue solo. Unless you force people to join PvP as a group, you do not solve the problem. And the problem is that the mixed queue is designed to make the normal players (pug) queue alone (faster way to play PvP), while it also allows premades of fully geared and experienced PvPers to gang up against them.
Now, you didn't bring a single valid point. You said that even during solo queue the matchmaking was forming premades of friends. I experienced the opposite. Met few players together 2 games in a row, but in the 3rd they were separated. So: random. And you make speculations. We need FACTS.
You say that i need solo queue that bad because i...solo queue in PvP mixed queue while your solution is...grab a premade of geared players on your own. Which means: jump on the premade train and be happy. Nice move, sherlock.
You say that you still read complaints about P2W in chat. But i'm not talking about players complaining about gear gap. I talk about NUMBERS. Numbers say that during soloQ the matches (teams, not single players, cause PvP is about TEAMS) were more fair. That there was no need for gg and that there were very, very few "600 points" charity matches. Which is an improvement. Players noticed the improvement and that's why, as you say, PvP got more players. If it was as HAMSTER as current miexd queue "premadeland", people wuldn't play it. So, we always said that matchmaking needs a larger population to work better, but when there's something that can bring people to PvP you say "no thank you".
Seriously. I'm happy you found your solution in forming your own "pug premades" but that's not a solution, just you joining the premade train to have a fully geared team. Which is no different from what current premades do.
you guys could organize to "ban" some specific gear from your PvP players. But you didn't want to say "hey guys, let's all solo queue and even the ground until we see changes", because you say you like to premade all together. So, on one side you have your premades of PvP alliances, stomping pug teams 24/7. On the other side you have the chance to mix things through a self-decided solo queue, and get more fair teams and games, with more fight and more fight.
But you say you have more fun going premade and enjoying an endless row of "no-contest" games where the enemies "gg" and then you all sit there waiting for the match to end.
Sayajin sarcasm is not even that funny for the simple reason that current premades often think that way. Some of them even prevent the enemy team from getting to reward threesold. So you can joke about it when you are the stomping premade. You don't joke that much when you are the player who tries to do a couple of dailies and wastes 1 hour because premades prevent you from getting reward.
My suggestion for cryptic is to remove RAD dailies from PvP. Then literally nobody except you guys will play it, and you will "enjoy" forming your premades and waiting 1 hour for a match to pop. So you guys can waste some of your time too, instead of exploiting the flawed system to get your "fun" at the expenses of the rest of the players.
PvP used to have a ton of players. In 3 years PvP "elites" managed to exploit so much and stomp so much that now it's almost dead. Looks like what you say is "i want my fun, don't care if it kills the game. After all, i can blame the devs". Nope. You can blame the devs AND YOURSELF.
This is a game. Treating PvP in a mmo game as if it was some kind of professional sport while acting like some pathetic version of a virtual "elite" just proves they are a pathetic human beings who need some virtual compensation to feel better. Grow up.
yes, i agree! and understand your feeling about it... and often it's just kids playing.
and: so very strangely cryptic and their framework makes pvp this way... it's hard to outgrow rules/settings of our environment -- a challenge for real heroes, i find... (and sometimes reminds me of the world out there... with all its dangerous "successes" and unfair "competition" blah!)
and now i feel a bit happy to leave it behind for a while. :-)
I would say TeamSpeak, which many of the pre-mades use, is equal to boons and mounts together. Pug groups, by their very nature, are not able to take advantage of this mechanic. Pre-mades are able to pass information much faster and regroup on a dime.
I think TeamSpeak is a good thing, generally, but not for pug pvp.
+! ts makes a huge difference and the fact that coordination was reduced to typing for all (most) of us was probably what made SOLO QUEUE so much more balanced...
I think that's a fair trade off, you solo queue guys can have your fun 1 week per year and we take care of the remaining year.
Yep you are as much for fair in terms of time as in terms of fighting pugs with premade teams. The term fair can be looked up I think you misunderstand the very concept of it or rather you made it extremely clear you don't even phantom the very concept of the word fair :-).
I agree, he doesn't even phantom the very concept
ey, and you know, all experienced and said about (unfair!) neverwinter pvp -- i still have this strange, strange concept of "chivalry" in mind... i must be mad! :-))
Don't forget though that players have "figured it out" by now. I'd bet another solo queue would also feel worse than the first one simply because guilds and friends are more and more syncing now. I firmly believe a mixed duo/solo queue shouldn't exist, but this is worth mentioning.
Comments
What i saw during soloQ event was this: 9 times out of 10 the losing team could fight back and cap without the need for GG. It is seen in the scores: my scores during soloQ are all in the range of the thousands (2000+).
What i see now is a row of "600" points (charity), cause right after soloQ i consistently meet 4k half premades or premades of fully geared PvPers.
The difference is NOTICEABLE and multiple players have already explained this to you and the others. If you still refuse to read that simple fact, it's because you don't want to accept it.
PvP during soloQ was noticeably better. Period. Most players are saying this, and a couple are saying that "well, there are other issues". Which does not take away anything from the fact that soloQ made PvP more fair and fun compared to our mixed "premadefest" queue.
Nobody will EVER return to PvP when it's literally a pain to solo queue in current system. During soloQ, no matter if i was winning or losing, i would play 10+ PvP dominations just for fun. Now, i just try to do my 2 dailies and it's a PAIN cause 9 times out of 10 it's some form of 4k half premade or full premade stomping the random pick up group.
Now, given the FACT that soloQ made PvP BETTER for most players, what we need now is, as a second step, Tenacity brackets. Cause it's this stat, more than iLvL itself, that makes the biggest difference in PvP. More tenacity, also, means better gear (iLvL, BiS armors and rosegold rings, for example).
Cause, oet's say we make "iLvL brackets" as you say, in mixed queue. Now, what would happen is, in my case:
- premade team full PvP gear and builds, full tenacity, PvP experience
- pug team with a mix of tenacity and PvE armor dudes that go down in few hits (massive difference vs tenacity dudes in same iLvL range).
Enough to make the match POINTLESS.
We just need 2 things:
-Permanent solo queue (to leave sayajin playing in his beloved pugstomping wonderland with his friends)
-Tenacity brackets
Now you have improved PvP 100xtimes, and can focus on PvP class balance.
PS:Removed slight flame many PvP players just enjoy pugstomping to stroke their e-peen. And cryptic needs them to stomp pugs with their shiny BiS gear because it's the way to push pug players to spend zen to get better.
PVP was dead and the forum more or less also. So let the devs decide to just close that chapter like foundry or find solutions, and I think in this case they should just follow their customers 1 on 1, and not some PVP grandpa´s who fear to leave their premade comfort-zone
Clonkyo says he can take premades on, him and "GXG", I guess as a duo? I think the problem is deeper than just gear. With Teamspeak there is a whole nother level to the game, one which pick up groups really can't access. The players can get better gear, they can get SH boons, they can open a 1000 tiny lockboxes for a lion, but they can't access the same Teamspeak server, giving them awareness of all three nodes simultaneously. Chat doesn't compare.
Do I think they could or should make Teamspeak illegal in-game? Absolutely not. But perhaps they should carry all that organization through and develop their own league for more fair fights.
Edit: I never GG myself, sometimes I take points (no matter which side) if a GG happens. I personally dislike the charity from creeps who waste my game time.
2nd match, one of my friend's pre mades was lacking a body, so I joined. Match over in a minute. We won, traded caps for 600. Boring.
This is killing the game for me. My pve gear stands at 3750. Everything but FBI is a cake walk. On a normal day I log in, grab my VIP key, open a box, do 3 quests for the latest campaign progression, q for two pvp matches. My pvp gear is 4029. A score I've spent a staggering amount of time on min/maxing over the years. PvP has always been the reason for me playing.
But right now, especially after the week of soloQ reminding me why I play the game, and emphasizing just how far pvp has fallen since the days of my first joining the game in mod2, I wonder why I bother..? It's like I built a race car in my garage, only to find the roads have gotten too bad to race on.
Do me a favour, bring soloQ back.
And Clonk "that player's gear" is what a normal, free to play guy starts with in PVP. Nobody can diss him about it. The problem is the system places him in the same environment as 4k dedicated pvp players who may have cheated their way to bis or may have bought/grinded their way to bis..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The current format favors PVP groups over pug groups, that's simply the way it is. I have been solo Qing a lot lately, what I can tell you is that the same issues that have existed for mods still exist. 1) Horrible matchmaking 2) BIS vs Undergeared 3) Teams vs Pugs 4) Non tenacity wearing players with no enchants coming in to PVP (sometimes botting) 5) People who literally still don't understand how Domination and nodes work. 6) People who insta GG and ask for points because they just want the rewards.
I get just as annoyed about players who still think fighting from the pillars is acceptable or running back and forth across the bridge is a legit way to PVP. There are players who are still just lurking around hoping to get a kill and don't contribute. These are just as much a problem as premades, but they won't get mentioned here most likely because people just get mad that the best way to play the current meta is in groups with well geared players, who are hopefully skilled at their classes as well. It's just the way it is mate.
Now, to answer your "I still wouldn't joke"... Why not? What else can you do when the devs turn a deaf ear to their players? Solo Q even without coming up against a premade is still a joke as you are just as likely to have some player in blue and green PVE gear with no enchants on your team as you are to still have a 4K IL team against you that the Q matched without being a premade.
I will joke and enjoy what I like, and I find some people's comments humorous, I also find it comical that some of you guys can't "phantom" sarcasm which kinda makes it even funnier.
We both agree on the tenacity problem, for example. If the devs think PVP needs padded walls and floors, pad them the same for everybody. Don't mix a stat up into that.
I feel like you are not even reading sometimes. You wrote me "just grab a group of geared pugs". Seriously???
Your solution is, basically "form a premade of your own, with geared players".
Thank you Mr. Obvious. We didn't know that if we form a geared premade of our own we can beat other premades.
But most of the playerbase just queue solo. Unless you force people to join PvP as a group, you do not solve the problem. And the problem is that the mixed queue is designed to make the normal players (pug) queue alone (faster way to play PvP), while it also allows premades of fully geared and experienced PvPers to gang up against them.
Now, you didn't bring a single valid point.
You said that even during solo queue the matchmaking was forming premades of friends. I experienced the opposite. Met few players together 2 games in a row, but in the 3rd they were separated. So: random. And you make speculations. We need FACTS.
You say that i need solo queue that bad because i...solo queue in PvP mixed queue while your solution is...grab a premade of geared players on your own. Which means: jump on the premade train and be happy. Nice move, sherlock.
You say that you still read complaints about P2W in chat. But i'm not talking about players complaining about gear gap. I talk about NUMBERS. Numbers say that during soloQ the matches (teams, not single players, cause PvP is about TEAMS) were more fair. That there was no need for gg and that there were very, very few "600 points" charity matches.
Which is an improvement.
Players noticed the improvement and that's why, as you say, PvP got more players. If it was as HAMSTER as current miexd queue "premadeland", people wuldn't play it.
So, we always said that matchmaking needs a larger population to work better, but when there's something that can bring people to PvP you say "no thank you".
Seriously.
I'm happy you found your solution in forming your own "pug premades" but that's not a solution, just you joining the premade train to have a fully geared team. Which is no different from what current premades do.
@tyrion:
you guys could organize to "ban" some specific gear from your PvP players. But you didn't want to say "hey guys, let's all solo queue and even the ground until we see changes", because you say you like to premade all together.
So, on one side you have your premades of PvP alliances, stomping pug teams 24/7.
On the other side you have the chance to mix things through a self-decided solo queue, and get more fair teams and games, with more fight and more fight.
But you say you have more fun going premade and enjoying an endless row of "no-contest" games where the enemies "gg" and then you all sit there waiting for the match to end.
Sayajin sarcasm is not even that funny for the simple reason that current premades often think that way. Some of them even prevent the enemy team from getting to reward threesold. So you can joke about it when you are the stomping premade. You don't joke that much when you are the player who tries to do a couple of dailies and wastes 1 hour because premades prevent you from getting reward.
My suggestion for cryptic is to remove RAD dailies from PvP. Then literally nobody except you guys will play it, and you will "enjoy" forming your premades and waiting 1 hour for a match to pop. So you guys can waste some of your time too, instead of exploiting the flawed system to get your "fun" at the expenses of the rest of the players.
PvP used to have a ton of players. In 3 years PvP "elites" managed to exploit so much and stomp so much that now it's almost dead.
Looks like what you say is "i want my fun, don't care if it kills the game. After all, i can blame the devs".
Nope. You can blame the devs AND YOURSELF.
Was pvp fairer with soloQ..?
Yes, it was.
Did more people play during the soloQ event..?
Yes, they did.
We're matches closer with soloQ..?
Yes, they were.
Was soloQ more fun for most people..?
Yes, it was.
Is the general consensus that permanent soloQ would make pvp better..?
Yes, it is.
and: so very strangely cryptic and their framework makes pvp this way... it's hard to outgrow rules/settings of our environment -- a challenge for real heroes, i find... (and sometimes reminds me of the world out there... with all its dangerous "successes" and unfair "competition" blah!)
and now i feel a bit happy to leave it behind for a while. :-)
ts makes a huge difference
and the fact that coordination was reduced to typing for all (most) of us
was probably what made SOLO QUEUE so much more balanced...
Solo, Duo, private, and normal queues IMO.