you guys could organize to "ban" some specific gear from your PvP players. But you didn't want to say "hey guys, let's all solo queue and even the ground until we see changes", because you say you like to premade all together. So, on one side you have your premades of PvP alliances, stomping pug teams 24/7. On the other side you have the chance to mix things through a self-decided solo queue, and get more fair teams and games, with more fight and more fight.
But you say you have more fun going premade and enjoying an endless row of "no-contest" games where the enemies "gg" and then you all sit there waiting for the match to end.
PvP used to have a ton of players. In 3 years PvP "elites" managed to exploit so much and stomp so much that now it's almost dead. Looks like what you say is "i want my fun, don't care if it kills the game. After all, i can blame the devs". Nope. You can blame the devs AND YOURSELF.
Let me fill you in on some concepts. Firstly we banned ambush rings and drains because they are game breaking. If people are unable to see this simple issue then they are fools. If everyone in PVP was wearing an ambush ring with no cool downs then a spectator would see an empty map with nodes randomly turning colors. That's not PVP, it's hide and seek. It's that simple.
If everyone was wearing drains and noone had wards then noone can move, dodge, or use dailies. This is also game breaking, however this is most game breaking for low geared pugs as they can't even use their basic class mechanics and they don't have access to wards, they then go from being easy targets to stationary beating dummies. It's overkill, if your guild can make drains then you shouldn't need them because you're likely already better geared than a majority of players in PVP.
Now, moving forward. Let me blunt about this, it doesn't matter what we do or don't do as BIS PVPers who specialize our builds and play styles for PVP. PUGs will always hate us and always claim we are doing something wrong. You act as though every member of synergy only groups up and massacres pugs. This shows your obvious bias. It's simply not true.
I can count the number of full premades I have been in, in the last 100 matches on one hand. I have primarily only solo and duo Q'd and most of my guildmates do as well because a full PM vs Pugs is no challenge. However, we are friends and occasionally we go out and form a full group in hopes, but not in the likelyhood, that we will meet another PM for a fun match. Barring that happening we will chill and talk while we kill pugs to get our daily win and hang out.
Here is the rub mate, firstly when you solo Q, you must depend on your pug group to carry their weight. They don't. The vast majority of pugs are terribly geared, terribly built, and have no clue about rotations and fighting on nodes. This is exasperating to someone who knows. When you try to explain it, usually in short sentences because you're in a 2,3,4v1 situation because your team is not pulling their weight... they tell you in no uncertain terms what an elitist ***hole you are and promptly campfire it.
So, very often solo Qing winds up with you, the only person fighting on nodes and surviving in ridiculous odds and dying because your team is busy running across the bridge, fighting from pillars, and generally doing everything that is completely useless leaving you to fend off the whole team by yourself. This is PuG PVP. Completely sans strategy and yet, people try to tell me that this is how PVP should be.
The few games that I get into that are good are completely random because comps happen to allow for competition or for once the Q actually put some people on both teams who knew what they were doing or were willing to listen to directions. These are the vast minority of matches however.
Lastly, I'm so tired of hearing all you complainers blaming BIS PVP players for the death of PVP. You are completely unable to fathom the basic truth that cryptic is who separated the PVPers from the PVEers. Mods 1-4 we were all PVEers who PVPed. The introduction of tenacity was what initially separated those who preferred PVP to PVE. It fractured the community, it gave those who got PVP gear a distinct advantage and began the ever increasing gear gap between PVPers and PVEers. Then we began to tailor our builds even more for PVP as tenacity made crit a moot point, and survivability is equally as important as damage in PVP. Then came more artifacts, SH Boons, Legendary mount abilities, Insignias, etc. etc.
It boils down to this, cryptic screwed the system. We used to all PVE to get the gear sets we wanted that we also PVP'd in. The difference between rank 8's and rank 10s was minimal. A few hundred stat points was the difference between BIS and Average PVE GS. It is cryptic who has created disparity and caused a rift in the games community, it is cryptic who continues to widen this gap, it is cryptic that most likely thinks that disparity creates demand which increases profit. Stop blaming those of us who are veterans with good gear who've played since beta and maxed our toons for the BS that cryptic has done to ruin the gaming environment and cause a toxic schism between it's players. I'm tired of having people blame end game players for being end game. I'm tired of people telling me that running around off node in green non tenacity gear with rank 5 enchants and no weapon/armor enchants is how PVP is supposed to be played. Ultimately, I have have good gear, I have friends with good gear, we play to have fun and we will continue to do that. So, tell cryptic to stop making the game so gear dependent and stop whining at us for having good gear and a SH we worked for.
/end rant
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I couldn't have put it better. Tyrion is right. We do what we do because we like pvp. Simple as that, the enviroment we play in, is by and large, out of our hands.
you guys could organize to "ban" some specific gear from your PvP players. But you didn't want to say "hey guys, let's all solo queue and even the ground until we see changes", because you say you like to premade all together. So, on one side you have your premades of PvP alliances, stomping pug teams 24/7. On the other side you have the chance to mix things through a self-decided solo queue, and get more fair teams and games, with more fight and more fight.
But you say you have more fun going premade and enjoying an endless row of "no-contest" games where the enemies "gg" and then you all sit there waiting for the match to end.
PvP used to have a ton of players. In 3 years PvP "elites" managed to exploit so much and stomp so much that now it's almost dead. Looks like what you say is "i want my fun, don't care if it kills the game. After all, i can blame the devs". Nope. You can blame the devs AND YOURSELF.
Let me fill you in on some concepts. Firstly we banned ambush rings and drains because they are game breaking. If people are unable to see this simple issue then they are fools. If everyone in PVP was wearing an ambush ring with no cool downs then a spectator would see an empty map with nodes randomly turning colors. That's not PVP, it's hide and seek. It's that simple.
If everyone was wearing drains and noone had wards then noone can move, dodge, or use dailies. This is also game breaking, however this is most game breaking for low geared pugs as they can't even use their basic class mechanics and they don't have access to wards, they then go from being easy targets to stationary beating dummies. It's overkill, if your guild can make drains then you shouldn't need them because you're likely already better geared than a majority of players in PVP.
Now, moving forward. Let me blunt about this, it doesn't matter what we do or don't do as BIS PVPers who specialize our builds and play styles for PVP. PUGs will always hate us and always claim we are doing something wrong. You act as though every member of synergy only groups up and massacres pugs. This shows your obvious bias. It's simply not true.
I can count the number of full premades I have been in, in the last 100 matches on one hand. I have primarily only solo and duo Q'd and most of my guildmates do as well because a full PM vs Pugs is no challenge. However, we are friends and occasionally we go out and form a full group in hopes, but not in the likelyhood, that we will meet another PM for a fun match. Barring that happening we will chill and talk while we kill pugs to get our daily win and hang out.
Here is the rub mate, firstly when you solo Q, you must depend on your pug group to carry their weight. They don't. The vast majority of pugs are terribly geared, terribly built, and have no clue about rotations and fighting on nodes. This is exasperating to someone who knows. When you try to explain it, usually in short sentences because you're in a 2,3,4v1 situation because your team is not pulling their weight... they tell you in no uncertain terms what an elitist ***hole you are and promptly campfire it.
So, very often solo Qing winds up with you, the only person fighting on nodes and surviving in ridiculous odds and dying because your team is busy running across the bridge, fighting from pillars, and generally doing everything that is completely useless leaving you to fend off the whole team by yourself. This is PuG PVP. Completely sans strategy and yet, people try to tell me that this is how PVP should be.
The few games that I get into that are good are completely random because comps happen to allow for competition or for once the Q actually put some people on both teams who knew what they were doing or were willing to listen to directions. These are the vast minority of matches however.
Lastly, I'm so tired of hearing all you complainers blaming BIS PVP players for the death of PVP. You are completely unable to fathom the basic truth that cryptic is who separated the PVPers from the PVEers. Mods 1-4 we were all PVEers who PVPed. The introduction of tenacity was what initially separated those who preferred PVP to PVE. It fractured the community, it gave those who got PVP gear a distinct advantage and began the ever increasing gear gap between PVPers and PVEers. Then we began to tailor our builds even more for PVP as tenacity made crit a moot point, and survivability is equally as important as damage in PVP. Then came more artifacts, SH Boons, Legendary mount abilities, Insignias, etc. etc.
It boils down to this, cryptic screwed the system. We used to all PVE to get the gear sets we wanted that we also PVP'd in. The difference between rank 8's and rank 10s was minimal. A few hundred stat points was the difference between BIS and Average PVE GS. It is cryptic who has created disparity and caused a rift in the games community, it is cryptic who continues to widen this gap, it is cryptic that most likely thinks that disparity creates demand which increases profit. Stop blaming those of us who are veterans with good gear who've played since beta and maxed our toons for the BS that cryptic has done to ruin the gaming environment and cause a toxic schism between it's players. I'm tired of having people blame end game players for being end game. I'm tired of people telling me that running around off node in green non tenacity gear with rank 5 enchants and no weapon/armor enchants is how PVP is supposed to be played. Ultimately, I have have good gear, I have friends with good gear, we play to have fun and we will continue to do that. So, tell cryptic to stop making the game so gear dependent and stop whining at us for having good gear and a SH we worked for.
/end rant
I agree 90%, ok maybe 99%, drains should not be as taboo as they are especially in bis premade pvp where everyone has access to drains and wards. I haven't used them in a few months because it's easier to not have to deal with the complainers. It's usually the the other pvp guilds that complain not the pugs.
Drains aside. There needs to be ladder, hardcore pvp, or ranked pvp vs casual pvp. Where as the ladder event resets monthly or bi-monthly and any toon enrolled into the ladder event is excluded from the casual pvp. Casual pvp is for dailies etc. and ladder has no daily rewards but at the end of the event the top ranked players receive a title and rewards. The ladder event doesn't need to be domination, and probably shouldn't be, but an everyone vs everyone event. etc. Maybe the ladder event has double or triple healing depression. Anyway some sort of hardcore pvp that is separate from the casual pvp.
I know I would have a toon or two enrolled, and I could play my alts in the casual pvp.
It doesn't solve the entirety of the PvP problems. Do you think we all believe that?
The only reason anyone would oppose this is if they are obsessed with stomping PUG teams.
This is an important first step. Next step is separating under 3k and over 3k IL.
These two changes will drastically improve the quality of matches.
Then the Devs need to tweak the system so that the various IL characters involved in a match are separated properly. It can't be perfect, but it will be yet another step forward.
Then, back to class balancing. But while they are working on class balance, at least we can have a more fun environment in which to play.
+
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
ye, only about comfort. i remember post, explained that premades que for pvp in between waiting for dungeons run. isnt it absurd? they are invincible only because they are premade, they can just afking, talking and trading caps there. They know it will be like this and dont care about competition. On the other side, there can be passionate player looking for good match but is humiliated at the beginning. Humiliated by players, who dont care about any competition and only farming some resources there and in the meantime they systematically destroying any competition, every newbie that should grow into competition level after a month. If you are really pvp player, you cant defend this or only say that its only on devs (pvp is never only at devs, players are to blame a lot too) Tell me which other game offer such a absurd gameplay... if you think about these, you should think differently about premading. is anything i just write incorrect?
still waiting till you realize my thoughts are the only way to make better pvp experience
and please, once for all. stop playing the card, that people complain only if they have not gear, its not true.
Let me fill you in on some concepts. Firstly we banned ambush rings and drains because they are game breaking. If people are unable to see this simple issue then they are fools. If everyone in PVP was wearing an ambush ring with no cool downs then a spectator would see an empty map with nodes randomly turning colors. That's not PVP, it's hide and seek. It's that simple.
If everyone was wearing drains and noone had wards then noone can move, dodge, or use dailies. This is also game breaking, however this is most game breaking for low geared pugs as they can't even use their basic class mechanics and they don't have access to wards, they then go from being easy targets to stationary beating dummies. It's overkill, if your guild can make drains then you shouldn't need them because you're likely already better geared than a majority of players in PVP.
Now, moving forward. Let me blunt about this, it doesn't matter what we do or don't do as BIS PVPers who specialize our builds and play styles for PVP. PUGs will always hate us and always claim we are doing something wrong. You act as though every member of synergy only groups up and massacres pugs. This shows your obvious bias. It's simply not true.
I can count the number of full premades I have been in, in the last 100 matches on one hand. I have primarily only solo and duo Q'd and most of my guildmates do as well because a full PM vs Pugs is no challenge. However, we are friends and occasionally we go out and form a full group in hopes, but not in the likelyhood, that we will meet another PM for a fun match. Barring that happening we will chill and talk while we kill pugs to get our daily win and hang out.
Here is the rub mate, firstly when you solo Q, you must depend on your pug group to carry their weight. They don't. The vast majority of pugs are terribly geared, terribly built, and have no clue about rotations and fighting on nodes. This is exasperating to someone who knows. When you try to explain it, usually in short sentences because you're in a 2,3,4v1 situation because your team is not pulling their weight... they tell you in no uncertain terms what an elitist ***hole you are and promptly campfire it.
So, very often solo Qing winds up with you, the only person fighting on nodes and surviving in ridiculous odds and dying because your team is busy running across the bridge, fighting from pillars, and generally doing everything that is completely useless leaving you to fend off the whole team by yourself. This is PuG PVP. Completely sans strategy and yet, people try to tell me that this is how PVP should be.
The few games that I get into that are good are completely random because comps happen to allow for competition or for once the Q actually put some people on both teams who knew what they were doing or were willing to listen to directions. These are the vast minority of matches however.
Lastly, I'm so tired of hearing all you complainers blaming BIS PVP players for the death of PVP. You are completely unable to fathom the basic truth that cryptic is who separated the PVPers from the PVEers. Mods 1-4 we were all PVEers who PVPed. The introduction of tenacity was what initially separated those who preferred PVP to PVE. It fractured the community, it gave those who got PVP gear a distinct advantage and began the ever increasing gear gap between PVPers and PVEers. Then we began to tailor our builds even more for PVP as tenacity made crit a moot point, and survivability is equally as important as damage in PVP. Then came more artifacts, SH Boons, Legendary mount abilities, Insignias, etc. etc.
It boils down to this, cryptic screwed the system. We used to all PVE to get the gear sets we wanted that we also PVP'd in. The difference between rank 8's and rank 10s was minimal. A few hundred stat points was the difference between BIS and Average PVE GS. It is cryptic who has created disparity and caused a rift in the games community, it is cryptic who continues to widen this gap, it is cryptic that most likely thinks that disparity creates demand which increases profit. Stop blaming those of us who are veterans with good gear who've played since beta and maxed our toons for the BS that cryptic has done to ruin the gaming environment and cause a toxic schism between it's players. I'm tired of having people blame end game players for being end game. I'm tired of people telling me that running around off node in green non tenacity gear with rank 5 enchants and no weapon/armor enchants is how PVP is supposed to be played. Ultimately, I have have good gear, I have friends with good gear, we play to have fun and we will continue to do that. So, tell cryptic to stop making the game so gear dependent and stop whining at us for having good gear and a SH we worked for.
/end rant
i think it's the first time i read such a detailed point of view from a BIS player. summed up it's the same perspective mid and low gear players have, just the other way round: it shows how throwing all levels of players in one big pot makes for discomfort and distrust.
and yes, it's cryptic that does it -- and we all adapt as best can -- as long as we still pvp... quite illuminating situation...
i'll say something mean here: i never invested much in pvp, it's intentional i did'nt want to be left locked in with all that gear and no company... i'm just not rich enough to do this without regret.
now i tried to find ways to play mid gear chars in pvp, and there are some it was normally class advantage (window of chance) or special capabilities BIS players don't invest much in, such as speed. still ... i would love SOLO queue to come back, that was more fun!
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
as simple as i can - play games for fun, more competitiveness pvp wise mean more fun, competitiveness is everything, anything that is against competitiveness is for wrong. But i see many things against competitivness tolkienbuff defend because of his comfort.
i am 100% sure, that if cryptic allow only solo que at pvp without exception, playerbase recover to a point, that you (tolkienbuff) get constant best pvp gameplay you ever have in any game
as simple as i can - play games for fun, more competitiveness pvp wise mean more fun, competitiveness is everything, anything that is against competitiveness is for wrong. But i see many things against competitivness tolkienbuff defend because of his comfort.
i am 100% sure, that if cryptic allow only solo que at pvp without exception, playerbase recover to a point, that you (tolkienbuff) get constant best pvp gameplay you ever have in any game
LOL, again mate, I'm not sure you grasp english very well. I have not defended anything. I have stated how the game got to this state. You are obviously biased against me and/or BIS PVP players as every single post on every forum you've ever made shows. I told you that I'm not in favor of any of the gear gap, any of the SH boons, I hate that tenacity is gear bound, I hate that what used to be a few hundred stat points between BIS and Average gear is now 10s of thousands of points.
Exactly what do you think I'm defending here Vinceent1? Seriously mate, get over your obvious jealousy of end game players. Like You may not have as good gear, or you may not have a guild capable of putting together strong premades. It's not my fault that you're in that position.
You continuously cry every time I've ever seen you post about BIS and Premade PVP. At this point I believe I must be the focal point for your hatred and salt. It's very blatant. Now, you can put me on a pedestal of hate and vitriol, or you can realize that all end game PVPers have said the same thing.... The game is imbalanced, the devs continue to make it more imbalanced....
Now read this closely... IT's NOT OUR FAULT. I don't work for cryptic, I'm not a dev. I am BIS in a guild full of highly geared, skilled, PVPers. We like to PVP as solo q, we like to Duo Q, we like to group up and PVP. It's the way the game was supposed to be played. It was played this way until the gear gap became too wide and made BIS players very strong in comparison.
I defend nothing, I have no need to defend anything. I play the game the way it is produced.
That said, Solo Q is not the salvation of the PVP in this game, it's the admission of defeat, it's only necessary at this point because the game failed so miserably at balance. Solo Q is pug PVP at it's finest, it's non skilled people running around with no direction doing random BS and a few players actually trying to cap points and win. It's a joke at the expense of people who know how real PVP was played, and a godsend for those who like the chaos of a completely RNG match where you don't win because of skill or rotation but because you happened upon a better team/comp.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
LOL
ok, so you cut discussion with this emotional post, not very happy about it. you dont react to any sentence i wrote. once again your opinion is wrong. solo que is short term salvation (and maybe one of longterm solution too, but we will see). Only reason of so many unskilled ruin games is because most experienced players already gave up and only you and newbies (farmers) still play. This is how the game get to this state. But players will come back, if there is solution for more fun for pvp.
why do you think i dont join big (pvp) guild till now? because i know its not solution, i dont care about running at domination with full premade and farming kills and ruining competitiveness even more. I am endgame player too, with good gear, i only dont care about lockbox p2w HAMSTER like lions.
ye, only about comfort. i remember post, explained that premades que for pvp in between waiting for dungeons run. isnt it absurd? they are invincible only because they are premade, they can just afking, talking and trading caps there. They know it will be like this and dont care about competition. On the other side, there can be passionate player looking for good match but is humiliated at the beginning. Humiliated by players, who dont care about any competition and only farming some resources there and in the meantime they systematically destroying any competition, every newbie that should grow into competition level after a month. If you are really pvp player, you cant defend this or only say that its only on devs (pvp is never only at devs, players are to blame a lot too) Tell me which other game offer such a absurd gameplay... if you think about these, you should think differently about premading. is anything i just write incorrect?
still waiting till you realize my thoughts are the only way to make better pvp experience
and please, once for all. stop playing the card, that people complain only if they have not gear, its not true.
There is nothing to be gained from a "passionate player" looking for a "good match" because there is literally no competition in solo Q pug matches. It's just a matter of who has the better players/comp... That's all, there is no skill involved in Qing in with a bunch of people who at least 80% of have no idea what they're doing. If you win or lose a solo Q match, there are no bragging rights... You did not outplay your opponents, you did not coordinate better than them or out strategize them. You won because you had 2 gfs or 2hrs or some such or because you had a BIS player on your team who insta wiped the 2Ks on the other side.
If this is what you're telling me is preferable then it completely explains to me your stance. Is anything you write incorrect? Yeah, like most of your perspective. Facts are facts, things like imbalance exist, the number of premade fights are minimal now. However if you think solo Q PVP is the solution to having more "competition" then I understand the type of logic you're using and we will never agree.
Solo Q accomplishes one thing, and this is enough to make pugs happy, it offers an equal likelihood of an epic fail match as it does of a winning match. Only because of the afforementioned, not because the pugs miraculously learn to play or that their gear and builds become more effective, but because the Q system dilutes the BIS player base and allows for idiocracy to reign.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
ok, so you cut discussion with this emotional post, not very happy about it. you dont react to any sentence i wrote. once again your opinion is wrong. solo que is short term salvation (and maybe one of longterm solution too, but we will see). Only reason of so many unskilled ruin games is because most experienced players already gave up and only you and newbies (farmers) still play. This is how the game get to this state. But players will come back, if there is solution for more fun for pvp.
why do you think i dont join big (pvp) guild till now? because i know its not solution, i dont care about running at domination with full premade and farming kills and ruining competitiveness even more. I am endgame player too, with good gear, i only dont care about lockbox p2w HAMSTER like lions.
I did not cut discussion, you simply are on a rampage about end game players. You continue to act as though all I/we do is run full Premades and you're wrong. You're simply wrong, let me say it again. YOU'RE WRONG. I literally have ran 0 premades in the last 2 weeks. None, nadda, zip, zero. I'm not the only one. You are so obsessed with the few times you've come across one of our premades that you're now envisioning them everywhere. Dude, take off your tin foil cap.
Let me state again, with all your crying about competitiveness, there is none. If there are no premades, there is no competition. It's completely RNG then, no cooperation, no skill, nothing but sheer luck that your team is better.
I'll also say this, I don't have to run around in a full Premade to farm kills, I can do it, duo or solo. I can wrack up as many kills as I'd like. Now, as far as Lions are concerned, I don't care about them either lol.
Bro, you really should decrease your salt intake, for your health, it's coming out in your prolific ranting at guilds who PVP.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
no just no.
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que permanent and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid.
if a lot players come back there can be even some new bis premade for you to fight, maybe me included
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid. THIS
The solo Q will not bring back old veteran players mate, sorry to disappoint. It proves to them that the game has lost all that once was fun about PVP. The solo Q will not help pugs improve either. They don't learn coordination in Solo q, by definition it teaches them nothing about team work.
BIS players who learned to PVP cut their teeth (learned how to play) on tons of premade matches learning how to rotate, which classes best counter others, who the DC should follow, how to survive in hairy situations and how to communicate the other teams rotations in order to counter them effectively. Pugs in solo Q learn none of these things, none at all.
All that solo Q did, and will do, is bring out more undergeared, unkowledgeable pugs who think they now stand a chance of getting some extra AD while being absolutely useless. BIS will still farm kills whether they win or lose. There is literally no matches I was in during the entire solo Q event that didn't have at least 2 BIS players. None.
You say you're trying to be realistic. Realistically the only way to bring back old PVPers and reinvigorate the community is class and gear balance. It's that simple. Barring that, no amount of changing the Q will work, it will just dilute the better players amongst the lesser geared and inexperienced players.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
i am for class and gear balance, but it will not happening in near future
solo que should happening. AOE veterans dont come back, but every other veteran probably yes. many just wait solo que to be permanent to respec into pvp builds or cross
if coordination is so much important to you, there is probably no hope for you, you either continue to pugstomping or have noone to fight at all. but please dont ruin game for others, not so obsessed about coordination. Your coordinated guild is only a small part of community
btw pugs will never learn anything in current system. When they have chance to fight back, they will start to learn. true is not that quickly like when patronised by your guild
i am for class and gear balance, but it will not happening in near future
solo que should happening. AOE veterans dont come back, but every other veteran probably yes. many just wait solo que to be permanent to respec into pvp builds or cross
if coordination is so much important to you, there is probably no hope for you, you either continue to pugstomping or have noone to fight at all. but please dont ruin game for others, not so obsessed about coordination. Your coordinated guild is only a small part of community
btw pugs will never learn anything in current system. When they have chance to fight back, they will start to learn. true is not that quickly like when patronised by your guild
Pugs will not learn anything in any system where there is not gear balance. If coordination isn't important to you, then you have completely shown that you are not in favor of competition. In fact you're in favor of skilless, talentless, randomized pug fighting with no desire to improve yourself or your gameplay.
You saying that a desire for coordination makes me a hopeless case displays for all here your agenda and lack of desire for any real matches. You want PVP to be FFA, what it was never intended to be, but I hope you enjoy your preferred playstyle as you kill and get killed and win and lose and none of those thing reflect actual skill or strategy. This is our final correspondence from my end, you are a Pug with a pug mentality who wants pug PVP and can't understand what competition is.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2016
-pugs will learn when they can fight back. if there are 2 bis players at every match, there is room for learning
- i care about coordination and tactics (think about pvp a lot) but not as much as to be at premades at cost of losing competitive environment. thats the difference. i played pvp only first two months i play this game
bdo or eso are much more rewarding games if you care about coordination, man
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid. THIS
The solo Q will not bring back old veteran players mate, sorry to disappoint. It proves to them that the game has lost all that once was fun about PVP. The solo Q will not help pugs improve either. They don't learn coordination in Solo q, by definition it teaches them nothing about team work.
BIS players who learned to PVP cut their teeth (learned how to play) on tons of premade matches learning how to rotate, which classes best counter others, who the DC should follow, how to survive in hairy situations and how to communicate the other teams rotations in order to counter them effectively. Pugs in solo Q learn none of these things, none at all.
All that solo Q did, and will do, is bring out more undergeared, unkowledgeable pugs who think they now stand a chance of getting some extra AD while being absolutely useless. BIS will still farm kills whether they win or lose. There is literally no matches I was in during the entire solo Q event that didn't have at least 2 BIS players. None.
You say you're trying to be realistic. Realistically the only way to bring back old PVPers and reinvigorate the community is class and gear balance. It's that simple. Barring that, no amount of changing the Q will work, it will just dilute the better players amongst the lesser geared and inexperienced players.
So you really think apart from some PVP-guildies, noone is able to learn and understand why my class sucks against another 1 vs 1? And you really think NWO is a sealed book for the rest of community not running in premade and chatting? I would say NWO PVP is simple and cheap to learn, if you intend to do so, but right most player don´t even try to improve their gear and build and performance because--> there is a geargap and boons, legendary mounts etc. ...no way to close that gap in 100 years, without spending 1000`s of dollars or cheating like lot´s of PVP guildies did very successfull (this is a an open secret, no need to discuss). And there is also nothing like a good will from PVP guilds, otherwise they could share their knowhow with the community, right? Most PVP player keep their builds secret like the Holy Grail apart from some PVP builds like Icy posted. I pretty much think this conversation is everything but honest to some degree, sry.
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid. THIS
The solo Q will not bring back old veteran players mate, sorry to disappoint. It proves to them that the game has lost all that once was fun about PVP. The solo Q will not help pugs improve either. They don't learn coordination in Solo q, by definition it teaches them nothing about team work.
BIS players who learned to PVP cut their teeth (learned how to play) on tons of premade matches learning how to rotate, which classes best counter others, who the DC should follow, how to survive in hairy situations and how to communicate the other teams rotations in order to counter them effectively. Pugs in solo Q learn none of these things, none at all.
All that solo Q did, and will do, is bring out more undergeared, unkowledgeable pugs who think they now stand a chance of getting some extra AD while being absolutely useless. BIS will still farm kills whether they win or lose. There is literally no matches I was in during the entire solo Q event that didn't have at least 2 BIS players. None.
You say you're trying to be realistic. Realistically the only way to bring back old PVPers and reinvigorate the community is class and gear balance. It's that simple. Barring that, no amount of changing the Q will work, it will just dilute the better players amongst the lesser geared and inexperienced players.
So you really think apart from some PVP-guildies, noone is able to learn and understand why my class sucks against another 1 vs 1? And you really think NWO is a sealed book for the rest of community not running in premade and chatting? I would say NWO PVP is simple and cheap to learn, if you intend to do so, but right most player don´t even try to improve their gear and build and performance because--> there is a geargap and boons, legendary mounts etc. ...no way to close that gap in 100 years, without spending 1000`s of dollars or cheating like lot´s of PVP guildies did very successfull (this is a an open secret, no need to discuss). And there is also nothing like a good will from PVP guilds, otherwise they could share their knowhow with the community, right? Most PVP player keep their builds secret like the Holy Grail.
I'll put this pretty plainly. People learn to play by seeing good players and trying to figure out what they're doing right. They also find out by asking those players how they build their toons. What you find in the vast majority of pugs is vitriol. They don't ask for your build or ask how to play better, they curse at you and tell you all kinds of vile things about yourself ^^.
The issue with gear is one that I literally just got through talking about, so thanks for reiterating my point. No way to close that gap unless cryptic makes some really smart moves, but they likely will not. As far as spending Zen or cheating you are free to do as you like or assume as you like how people got BIS but everyone loves a good juicy story about people they already hate... whether it's true or not.
People learned how to play their classes by hanging out together with other good players of their classes, by theorycrafting separately and comparing notes. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to rotate nodes and chose fights and time CC chains by playing in coordination. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to min max their build by going to the PTR together as guildmates and fellow PVPers and testing and sharing info. You won't get this in solo Q.
To sum up, no I don't think that apart from PVP guilds people are able to effectively learn how to play their class or how to react in PVP without forming groups and playing with peers who are as good or better. No I don't think Solo Q will ever produce solid PVPers who want to or can premade. NWO is not a sealed book, it's one that noone bothers to open because they'd rather run around in PVP with bad gear, bad builds, and bad rotations and call it "fair" PVP.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
This is no real PVP, more a bad joke, and it will never be a competetive skillbased PVP because only very few player reach topgear after spending years of farming. There simply is no motivation to spend 2-3 years to become competetive in PVP. Every mod spits out the a next broken build/class, to prove your current class useless or fotm. And you have to study NWO releasenotes on PTR and the auction house beside praying 24/7 a day to stay BIS.
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid. THIS
The solo Q will not bring back old veteran players mate, sorry to disappoint. It proves to them that the game has lost all that once was fun about PVP. The solo Q will not help pugs improve either. They don't learn coordination in Solo q, by definition it teaches them nothing about team work.
BIS players who learned to PVP cut their teeth (learned how to play) on tons of premade matches learning how to rotate, which classes best counter others, who the DC should follow, how to survive in hairy situations and how to communicate the other teams rotations in order to counter them effectively. Pugs in solo Q learn none of these things, none at all.
All that solo Q did, and will do, is bring out more undergeared, unkowledgeable pugs who think they now stand a chance of getting some extra AD while being absolutely useless. BIS will still farm kills whether they win or lose. There is literally no matches I was in during the entire solo Q event that didn't have at least 2 BIS players. None.
You say you're trying to be realistic. Realistically the only way to bring back old PVPers and reinvigorate the community is class and gear balance. It's that simple. Barring that, no amount of changing the Q will work, it will just dilute the better players amongst the lesser geared and inexperienced players.
So you really think apart from some PVP-guildies, noone is able to learn and understand why my class sucks against another 1 vs 1? And you really think NWO is a sealed book for the rest of community not running in premade and chatting? I would say NWO PVP is simple and cheap to learn, if you intend to do so, but right most player don´t even try to improve their gear and build and performance because--> there is a geargap and boons, legendary mounts etc. ...no way to close that gap in 100 years, without spending 1000`s of dollars or cheating like lot´s of PVP guildies did very successfull (this is a an open secret, no need to discuss). And there is also nothing like a good will from PVP guilds, otherwise they could share their knowhow with the community, right? Most PVP player keep their builds secret like the Holy Grail.
I'll put this pretty plainly. People learn to play by seeing good players and trying to figure out what they're doing right. They also find out by asking those players how they build their toons. What you find in the vast majority of pugs is vitriol. They don't ask for your build or ask how to play better, they curse at you and tell you all kinds of vile things about yourself ^^.
The issue with gear is one that I literally just got through talking about, so thanks for reiterating my point. No way to close that gap unless cryptic makes some really smart moves, but they likely will not. As far as spending Zen or cheating you are free to do as you like or assume as you like how people got BIS but everyone loves a good juicy story about people they already hate... whether it's true or not.
People learned how to play their classes by hanging out together with other good players of their classes, by theorycrafting separately and comparing notes. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to rotate nodes and chose fights and time CC chains by playing in coordination. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to min max their build by going to the PTR together as guildmates and fellow PVPers and testing and sharing info. You won't get this in solo Q.
To sum up, no I don't think that apart from PVP guilds people are able to effectively learn how to play their class or how to react in PVP without forming groups and playing with peers who are as good or better. No I don't think Solo Q will ever produce solid PVPers who want to or can premade. NWO is not a sealed book, it's one that noone bothers to open because they'd rather run around in PVP with bad gear, bad builds, and bad rotations and call it "fair" PVP.
If you meet someone that treats you like HAMSTER, they are probably a butt-head. If you meet several people that treat you like HAMSTER, there is a possibility that they are all butt-heads. If most of the people you meet treat you like HAMSTER, you need to look closer to find the butt-head. The mirror is a good place to start. Also, I should add in this instance, you need to look @ the people you surround yourself with. I have never met you in a match, Tyrion. I have met countless other end-game, BiS, 20 guild players in PvP. many of them are not pleasant to deal with. I have been called every name in the book. I have been told i need to delete my toon. I've had to beg to be allowed to cap for points. I've had enemys lie in wait till my node was almost captured to spring out & one-shot me. I've had a teamate hamstring a match cuz someone from their guild was on the enemy team. Maybe they have better manners when you, or other officers are around. But, not all the bad behavior lies on the PUG side of the match. It's not fair to take the bad feelings that such treatment brings out on an innocent player that had nothing to do with such situations. But, frustration makes us all make bad choices. We're only human, after all.
that was a very well written tid bit about cryptic creating the void between casual and bis. that aside, solo queue is necessary. for the same reason that everyone likes to play with their friends in premades, is why a solo queue is a necessity. some people like to play alone. some are forced to. if there were two separate queues, pugs would go solo mostly and premades normal. thus leaving "skilled" players to premade, and pugs to learn via solo q. seems pretty simple in theory and could work. bis players arent the problem. the poor always blame the rich for their problems. its the system itself. cryptic has figured out a way to get people to spend $1000s on one mode that has two maps! does everyone not see that? imagine you played another game, spent a small fortune to stay top of the line (because all of the boons/ mounts/ gear will keep you spending) all to do one game mode with two maps! sure there are other types, but lets be honest those are even worse. of course everyone hates each other in pvp, theyre bored! pve drops like one dungeon per expansion, aint nothing else to do but pvp! oops sorry let me get back to my point before mods delete this. so um yeah the game is owned by cryptic, you either use what youre given or you lose. wards, rings, mounts, whatever it is to stay competitive. bis players know this. pugs think they can get by with low level stuff because they do it in dungeons where the bosses item level is 2.5k. guess what? in pvp you fight five bosses, and theyre all 4k. you either gear up (which is now easier than ever with tbar gear and upcoming solo queue), or you go to the forums to complain. the choice is yours.
- I clearly remember GG at the time it died. It was FILLED and FARMED by PvP guilds with 5 men or even 10 men premades which made each and every patch POINTLESS. What happens if you do that? Easy: normal players STOP going there. Which is what happened. You guys were warned, yet you PvP guilds kept "farming" GG as if it was PvE.
- I clearly remember also GG at that time: filled with BROKEN BUILDS. And i mean broken= PvPers from PvP guilds KNEW they were not WAI. Yet they kept using it. Add to this, they kept EXPLOITING an unfair advantage: non WAI negation enchants mixed with T.Fey. T.Neg was NOT WORKING AS INTENDED. You knew it guys and yet GG was FILLED with PvP guilds premades all in T-Fey+T.Neg. What do you think a normal player would do when 99% of the games he can join, are 1-sided farming from immortal premades of PvP guilds exploiting broken builds and items?
The same can be applied to any other PvP mode. PvP guilds FARM PVP. You said you banned ambush and drains. What about the broken T.Neg or broken builds of the past? Today you act as if you want a clean PvP environment, but for many modules before drains and ambush, PvP guilds exploited the hell out of this game.
YOU GUYS AND YOUR BANS ARRIVED TOO LATE, WHEN YOU ALREADY KILLED PVP WITH PREVIOUS EXPLOITS.
Another easy concept: Cryptic created the conditions, but the ones who exploited them were PvP guilds and pro-players.
CRYPTIC GAVE YOU THE GUN, BUT IT WAS YOU WHO DECIDED TO USE IT.
Players stopped PvPing because it was a pointless stomping or getting farmed by PvP guilds. I can too gather geared friends or guys and go PvP that way. But, instead, i go solo queue because it's the only way matchmaking can create a resemblance of balance when it comes to team formations.
To answer the guy who asked why duo queue seems noticeably worse than solo:
Easy said, because a matchmaking working with a small population is rendered completely useless when geared players can gang up, even if just in couples (in teams of 5 players it means a lot).
These are facts. Players see duo is worse. And it's true. This should suggest you that premades in current PvP breaks the game, no matter how you put it. It breaks the balance. Cause it completely erases what matchmaking could do. It's not matchmaking forming teams. It's the players. And PvP players form premades to stomp or farm easy victories in PvP.
Sorry for the sad truth all at once.
The least thing PvP guilds could do to START FIXING PVP is supporting the introduction of a solo queue where normal players can at least expect games where it doesn't end in a cap trade after 30 seconds.
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If everyone was wearing drains and noone had wards then noone can move, dodge, or use dailies. This is also game breaking, however this is most game breaking for low geared pugs as they can't even use their basic class mechanics and they don't have access to wards, they then go from being easy targets to stationary beating dummies. It's overkill, if your guild can make drains then you shouldn't need them because you're likely already better geared than a majority of players in PVP.
Now, moving forward. Let me blunt about this, it doesn't matter what we do or don't do as BIS PVPers who specialize our builds and play styles for PVP. PUGs will always hate us and always claim we are doing something wrong. You act as though every member of synergy only groups up and massacres pugs. This shows your obvious bias. It's simply not true.
I can count the number of full premades I have been in, in the last 100 matches on one hand. I have primarily only solo and duo Q'd and most of my guildmates do as well because a full PM vs Pugs is no challenge. However, we are friends and occasionally we go out and form a full group in hopes, but not in the likelyhood, that we will meet another PM for a fun match. Barring that happening we will chill and talk while we kill pugs to get our daily win and hang out.
Here is the rub mate, firstly when you solo Q, you must depend on your pug group to carry their weight. They don't. The vast majority of pugs are terribly geared, terribly built, and have no clue about rotations and fighting on nodes. This is exasperating to someone who knows. When you try to explain it, usually in short sentences because you're in a 2,3,4v1 situation because your team is not pulling their weight... they tell you in no uncertain terms what an elitist ***hole you are and promptly campfire it.
So, very often solo Qing winds up with you, the only person fighting on nodes and surviving in ridiculous odds and dying because your team is busy running across the bridge, fighting from pillars, and generally doing everything that is completely useless leaving you to fend off the whole team by yourself. This is PuG PVP. Completely sans strategy and yet, people try to tell me that this is how PVP should be.
The few games that I get into that are good are completely random because comps happen to allow for competition or for once the Q actually put some people on both teams who knew what they were doing or were willing to listen to directions. These are the vast minority of matches however.
Lastly, I'm so tired of hearing all you complainers blaming BIS PVP players for the death of PVP. You are completely unable to fathom the basic truth that cryptic is who separated the PVPers from the PVEers. Mods 1-4 we were all PVEers who PVPed. The introduction of tenacity was what initially separated those who preferred PVP to PVE. It fractured the community, it gave those who got PVP gear a distinct advantage and began the ever increasing gear gap between PVPers and PVEers. Then we began to tailor our builds even more for PVP as tenacity made crit a moot point, and survivability is equally as important as damage in PVP. Then came more artifacts, SH Boons, Legendary mount abilities, Insignias, etc. etc.
It boils down to this, cryptic screwed the system. We used to all PVE to get the gear sets we wanted that we also PVP'd in. The difference between rank 8's and rank 10s was minimal. A few hundred stat points was the difference between BIS and Average PVE GS. It is cryptic who has created disparity and caused a rift in the games community, it is cryptic who continues to widen this gap, it is cryptic that most likely thinks that disparity creates demand which increases profit. Stop blaming those of us who are veterans with good gear who've played since beta and maxed our toons for the BS that cryptic has done to ruin the gaming environment and cause a toxic schism between it's players. I'm tired of having people blame end game players for being end game. I'm tired of people telling me that running around off node in green non tenacity gear with rank 5 enchants and no weapon/armor enchants is how PVP is supposed to be played. Ultimately, I have have good gear, I have friends with good gear, we play to have fun and we will continue to do that. So, tell cryptic to stop making the game so gear dependent and stop whining at us for having good gear and a SH we worked for.
/end rant
Drains aside. There needs to be ladder, hardcore pvp, or ranked pvp vs casual pvp. Where as the ladder event resets monthly or bi-monthly and any toon enrolled into the ladder event is excluded from the casual pvp. Casual pvp is for dailies etc. and ladder has no daily rewards but at the end of the event the top ranked players receive a title and rewards. The ladder event doesn't need to be domination, and probably shouldn't be, but an everyone vs everyone event. etc. Maybe the ladder event has double or triple healing depression. Anyway some sort of hardcore pvp that is separate from the casual pvp.
I know I would have a toon or two enrolled, and I could play my alts in the casual pvp.
still waiting till you realize my thoughts are the only way to make better pvp experience
and please, once for all. stop playing the card, that people complain only if they have not gear, its not true.
and yes, it's cryptic that does it -- and we all adapt as best can -- as long as we still pvp... quite illuminating situation...
ayay! :-)
i never invested much in pvp, it's intentional
i did'nt want to be left locked in with all that gear and no company...
i'm just not rich enough to do this without regret.
now i tried to find ways to play mid gear chars in pvp, and there are some
it was normally class advantage (window of chance) or special capabilities BIS players don't invest much in, such as speed.
still ... i would love SOLO queue to come back, that was more fun!
i am 100% sure, that if cryptic allow only solo que at pvp without exception, playerbase recover to a point, that you (tolkienbuff) get constant best pvp gameplay you ever have in any game
Exactly what do you think I'm defending here Vinceent1? Seriously mate, get over your obvious jealousy of end game players. Like You may not have as good gear, or you may not have a guild capable of putting together strong premades. It's not my fault that you're in that position.
You continuously cry every time I've ever seen you post about BIS and Premade PVP. At this point I believe I must be the focal point for your hatred and salt. It's very blatant. Now, you can put me on a pedestal of hate and vitriol, or you can realize that all end game PVPers have said the same thing.... The game is imbalanced, the devs continue to make it more imbalanced....
Now read this closely... IT's NOT OUR FAULT. I don't work for cryptic, I'm not a dev. I am BIS in a guild full of highly geared, skilled, PVPers. We like to PVP as solo q, we like to Duo Q, we like to group up and PVP. It's the way the game was supposed to be played. It was played this way until the gear gap became too wide and made BIS players very strong in comparison.
I defend nothing, I have no need to defend anything. I play the game the way it is produced.
That said, Solo Q is not the salvation of the PVP in this game, it's the admission of defeat, it's only necessary at this point because the game failed so miserably at balance. Solo Q is pug PVP at it's finest, it's non skilled people running around with no direction doing random BS and a few players actually trying to cap points and win. It's a joke at the expense of people who know how real PVP was played, and a godsend for those who like the chaos of a completely RNG match where you don't win because of skill or rotation but because you happened upon a better team/comp.
ok, so you cut discussion with this emotional post, not very happy about it. you dont react to any sentence i wrote. once again your opinion is wrong. solo que is short term salvation (and maybe one of longterm solution too, but we will see). Only reason of so many unskilled ruin games is because most experienced players already gave up and only you and newbies (farmers) still play. This is how the game get to this state. But players will come back, if there is solution for more fun for pvp.
why do you think i dont join big (pvp) guild till now? because i know its not solution, i dont care about running at domination with full premade and farming kills and ruining competitiveness even more. I am endgame player too, with good gear, i only dont care about lockbox p2w HAMSTER like lions.
If this is what you're telling me is preferable then it completely explains to me your stance. Is anything you write incorrect? Yeah, like most of your perspective. Facts are facts, things like imbalance exist, the number of premade fights are minimal now. However if you think solo Q PVP is the solution to having more "competition" then I understand the type of logic you're using and we will never agree.
Solo Q accomplishes one thing, and this is enough to make pugs happy, it offers an equal likelihood of an epic fail match as it does of a winning match. Only because of the afforementioned, not because the pugs miraculously learn to play or that their gear and builds become more effective, but because the Q system dilutes the BIS player base and allows for idiocracy to reign.
Let me state again, with all your crying about competitiveness, there is none. If there are no premades, there is no competition. It's completely RNG then, no cooperation, no skill, nothing but sheer luck that your team is better.
I'll also say this, I don't have to run around in a full Premade to farm kills, I can do it, duo or solo. I can wrack up as many kills as I'd like. Now, as far as Lions are concerned, I don't care about them either lol.
Bro, you really should decrease your salt intake, for your health, it's coming out in your prolific ranting at guilds who PVP.
point of solo que is you dont meet bis premades all the time. if you dont meet bis premades all the time, you can fight back and it will be the reason many more players come back to pvp. if a lot of players come back to pvp, then when you are medium geared, you meet bis rarely (like NCL times). thats the whole point of solo que
i am trying to be realistic, we probably dont get any bracketing, the best we will see in near future is solo que permanent and playerbase slowly recovering to a point matchmaking do solid.
if a lot players come back there can be even some new bis premade for you to fight, maybe me included
BIS players who learned to PVP cut their teeth (learned how to play) on tons of premade matches learning how to rotate, which classes best counter others, who the DC should follow, how to survive in hairy situations and how to communicate the other teams rotations in order to counter them effectively. Pugs in solo Q learn none of these things, none at all.
All that solo Q did, and will do, is bring out more undergeared, unkowledgeable pugs who think they now stand a chance of getting some extra AD while being absolutely useless. BIS will still farm kills whether they win or lose. There is literally no matches I was in during the entire solo Q event that didn't have at least 2 BIS players. None.
You say you're trying to be realistic. Realistically the only way to bring back old PVPers and reinvigorate the community is class and gear balance. It's that simple. Barring that, no amount of changing the Q will work, it will just dilute the better players amongst the lesser geared and inexperienced players.
solo que should happening. AOE veterans dont come back, but every other veteran probably yes. many just wait solo que to be permanent to respec into pvp builds or cross
if coordination is so much important to you, there is probably no hope for you, you either continue to pugstomping or have noone to fight at all. but please dont ruin game for others, not so obsessed about coordination. Your coordinated guild is only a small part of community
btw pugs will never learn anything in current system. When they have chance to fight back, they will start to learn. true is not that quickly like when patronised by your guild
You saying that a desire for coordination makes me a hopeless case displays for all here your agenda and lack of desire for any real matches. You want PVP to be FFA, what it was never intended to be, but I hope you enjoy your preferred playstyle as you kill and get killed and win and lose and none of those thing reflect actual skill or strategy. This is our final correspondence from my end, you are a Pug with a pug mentality who wants pug PVP and can't understand what competition is.
- i care about coordination and tactics (think about pvp a lot) but not as much as to be at premades at cost of losing competitive environment. thats the difference. i played pvp only first two months i play this game
bdo or eso are much more rewarding games if you care about coordination, man
And you really think NWO is a sealed book for the rest of community not running in premade and chatting?
I would say NWO PVP is simple and cheap to learn, if you intend to do so, but right most player don´t even try to improve their gear and build and performance because--> there is a geargap and boons, legendary mounts etc. ...no way to close that gap in 100 years, without spending 1000`s of dollars or cheating like lot´s of PVP guildies did very successfull (this is a an open secret, no need to discuss).
And there is also nothing like a good will from PVP guilds, otherwise they could share their knowhow with the community, right? Most PVP player keep their builds secret like the Holy Grail apart from some PVP builds like Icy posted.
I pretty much think this conversation is everything but honest to some degree, sry.
The issue with gear is one that I literally just got through talking about, so thanks for reiterating my point. No way to close that gap unless cryptic makes some really smart moves, but they likely will not. As far as spending Zen or cheating you are free to do as you like or assume as you like how people got BIS but everyone loves a good juicy story about people they already hate... whether it's true or not.
People learned how to play their classes by hanging out together with other good players of their classes, by theorycrafting separately and comparing notes. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to rotate nodes and chose fights and time CC chains by playing in coordination. You won't get this in solo Q. People learned how to min max their build by going to the PTR together as guildmates and fellow PVPers and testing and sharing info. You won't get this in solo Q.
To sum up, no I don't think that apart from PVP guilds people are able to effectively learn how to play their class or how to react in PVP without forming groups and playing with peers who are as good or better. No I don't think Solo Q will ever produce solid PVPers who want to or can premade. NWO is not a sealed book, it's one that noone bothers to open because they'd rather run around in PVP with bad gear, bad builds, and bad rotations and call it "fair" PVP.
There simply is no motivation to spend 2-3 years to become competetive in PVP. Every mod spits out the a next broken build/class, to prove your current class useless or fotm.
And you have to study NWO releasenotes on PTR and the auction house beside praying 24/7 a day to stay BIS.
- I clearly remember GG at the time it died. It was FILLED and FARMED by PvP guilds with 5 men or even 10 men premades which made each and every patch POINTLESS. What happens if you do that? Easy: normal players STOP going there. Which is what happened. You guys were warned, yet you PvP guilds kept "farming" GG as if it was PvE.
- I clearly remember also GG at that time: filled with BROKEN BUILDS. And i mean broken= PvPers from PvP guilds KNEW they were not WAI. Yet they kept using it. Add to this, they kept EXPLOITING an unfair advantage: non WAI negation enchants mixed with T.Fey. T.Neg was NOT WORKING AS INTENDED. You knew it guys and yet GG was FILLED with PvP guilds premades all in T-Fey+T.Neg. What do you think a normal player would do when 99% of the games he can join, are 1-sided farming from immortal premades of PvP guilds exploiting broken builds and items?
The same can be applied to any other PvP mode. PvP guilds FARM PVP. You said you banned ambush and drains. What about the broken T.Neg or broken builds of the past? Today you act as if you want a clean PvP environment, but for many modules before drains and ambush, PvP guilds exploited the hell out of this game.
YOU GUYS AND YOUR BANS ARRIVED TOO LATE, WHEN YOU ALREADY KILLED PVP WITH PREVIOUS EXPLOITS.
Another easy concept: Cryptic created the conditions, but the ones who exploited them were PvP guilds and pro-players.
CRYPTIC GAVE YOU THE GUN, BUT IT WAS YOU WHO DECIDED TO USE IT.
Players stopped PvPing because it was a pointless stomping or getting farmed by PvP guilds. I can too gather geared friends or guys and go PvP that way. But, instead, i go solo queue because it's the only way matchmaking can create a resemblance of balance when it comes to team formations.
To answer the guy who asked why duo queue seems noticeably worse than solo:
Easy said, because a matchmaking working with a small population is rendered completely useless when geared players can gang up, even if just in couples (in teams of 5 players it means a lot).
These are facts. Players see duo is worse. And it's true. This should suggest you that premades in current PvP breaks the game, no matter how you put it. It breaks the balance. Cause it completely erases what matchmaking could do. It's not matchmaking forming teams. It's the players. And PvP players form premades to stomp or farm easy victories in PvP.
Sorry for the sad truth all at once.
The least thing PvP guilds could do to START FIXING PVP is supporting the introduction of a solo queue where normal players can at least expect games where it doesn't end in a cap trade after 30 seconds.