Nerfed regen gave back 10 times as much healing with weapon set/boons/insignias/artifacts/mounts

ltgamesttv

demonmonger said:

Dude.. he'll no.



Each time we pay to build our characters someone sneezes to knock down our card castle.



I built my character based on regeneration first... 6000+ regeneration with buffs and maxing artifacts, then regeneration got nerfed.



Next I built my character around lifesteal, and now you are asking for it to get nerfed.





Instead of asking for life steal nerf, ask for stronghold boon nerfs!

I didn't say lifesteal had to be nerfed, I said it was one of multiple sources of incoming healing. If you read my beginning post I cited LOADS of different types of healing. Insignias and mounts are actually one of my main concerns tbh. However, endless consumption may be something they want to look at as well. Also, I should interject here that this thread does me no favors either.. ALL my toons are centered around healing and lifesteal and insignias and waterwheels and drowned weapons.

You shouldn't assume that you're a Martyr when changes occur or are proposed. I had toons built around regen as well, this discussion is about what's best overall for the game both in PVE and PVP.

As far as asking for stronghold boon nerfs I'm not opposed to something like halving their effectiveness in PVP but ONLY if there is little to no internal healing because right now it's the only thing allowing people to kill at all. However there is no correlation I can see between saying healing is too much and desiring a SH boon nerf except that you dislike anyone potentially affecting your build so you prefer to nerf everyone who worked hard on their Strongholds even though it's a non sequitur.

Thanks for your reply.

ltgamesttv

defiantone99 said:

I think you are fighting a losing battle. Mod 10 brings these- Slayer's Redemption (M10) 2 Crescent, 1 Enlightened Whenever you kill a target, you are healed for 10% of your maximum Hit Points over 5 seconds. Victim's Preservation (M10) 1 Crescent, 2 Barbed Whenever you take greater than 35% of your Maximum Hit Points in pre-mitigated damage from a single blow, you are healed for 10% of your maximum Hit Points over 5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

I am well aware, I actually stated that in my post as well. This is one of the reasons I'm trying to address it. I may be fighting a losing battle but, as I see it, it's the right side of that battle. Not every battle lost was because the other side was more just. What they're going to find is they are mooting out healer classes in the game. If I mained a healer class I'd be up in arms about this junk. They're relegating them to buff bots in PVE and tanks in PVP. What fun is that?

Thanks for your reply.

demonmonger

I personally like my healing ability in pve.
In dnd tbtg pnp and dND old console games I would always go for vampire drain lifesteal life leeching weapons.

wachumpong

i woudnt say to remove self regen but to nerf it from 100% to 30-50%. its just too much

ltgamesttv

defiantone99 said:

I am curious what your proposals to change things are for PVE. I only see self-regulation as a solution to PVP, along with nerfing Tenacity DR and ARP Resist and adding more healing depression.

Firstly to stop adding in heals to every new thing in the game. No more healing boons, no more healing insignias, no more healing mounts and artifacts. Perhaps taking a look at endless consumption. Decreasing it's chance at proccing or decreasing it's effectiveness. Then addressing the current boons/insignias so that no man is an island.

Nerfing Tenacity is not something I have proposed. I keep maintaining that at the current rate of power creep that's a very bad idea. Giving it freely to everyone is what I have proposed. I do think more healing depression in PVP is necessary or simply to turn boons and insignias off in PVP.

ltgamesttv

Thanks for your input man, I think perhaps tuning it back may be enough in PVE but it would need to be done by actually adjusting the insignias for example to give less heals or to have interal cool downs.

kvet

tolkienbuff said:

I'd be interested to know if you're PVP geared, your IL, if you have Legendary mounts/all insignias. The reason I would ask is because, in my post, I said end game (meaning BIS vs BIS) at that level literally only the GF and TR are node clearers. This has been established in end game matches. Now at mid game anything can kill anything, just some are more effective. I also agree that boons are a huge damage/survivability boost to PVPers. I would LOVE to see across the board changes that would help people who don't primarily PVP become more able to stand in PVP and not insta die. It would seem that on the PTR next mod you can get an end game set of PVP gear for tarmalune bars. If this goes live it will be a great addition allowing people to take advantage of their VIP access to get gear.

The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:

1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.

2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.

3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.

4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?

5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.

These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.

If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.

Thanks for your reply.

As as CW, I run Elemental Burning set (everywhere), I have 4 mythic aritfacts, legendary weapons and set (LoL). My ilvl is around 3.7K. Not BiS, but also not low end either.

I agree with all 5 of those points - except perhaps point 5. It's so hard to win when you're pugging unless you just get lucky that there should be some reward anyway. 600 points? Maybe that's the wrong metric and we need some new metric to go by.

I don't find myself dying too fast, not usually, especially if there's a DC (which goes to your point about healing). All I'm saying is that if there's a downward adjustment to healing, there needs to be a simultaneous adjustment to damage too. Maybe not 1 for 1, but both need to be considered because it's the massive uptick in damage that made the massive uptick in healing sources necessary in the first place.

santralafax

tolkienbuff said:

My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.

On that we agree. There's no reason to force new players to deal with high-tenacity players as well as be low-geared.

I don't think that toning down crit is a bad thing in PVP, but it shouldn't be made useless, either. I know some who can give mathematical examples of when crit IS useful in PVP, but they seem to be reaching.

ltgamesttv

santralafax said:

tolkienbuff said:

My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.

On that we agree. There's no reason to force new players to deal with high-tenacity players as well as be low-geared.

I don't think that toning down crit is a bad thing in PVP, but it shouldn't be made useless, either. I know some who can give mathematical examples of when crit IS useful in PVP, but they seem to be reaching.

I agree with this as well. When Lostmauth set was still OP and stacking with damage multipliers crit still had value. Now unless you're a class that can afford to run with vorpal (i.e. TR in PVP) or can stack crit severity it actually doesn't make sense to go crit for PVP as sometimes your damage will be less with crits than with non crits. I think the crit calculation for tenacity is definitely due a revisit, especially when some classes (like GWF) are heavily weighted towards crit builds (i.e. crit severity built into heroic feats).

ltgamesttv

kvet said:

tolkienbuff said:

I'd be interested to know if you're PVP geared, your IL, if you have Legendary mounts/all insignias. The reason I would ask is because, in my post, I said end game (meaning BIS vs BIS) at that level literally only the GF and TR are node clearers. This has been established in end game matches. Now at mid game anything can kill anything, just some are more effective. I also agree that boons are a huge damage/survivability boost to PVPers. I would LOVE to see across the board changes that would help people who don't primarily PVP become more able to stand in PVP and not insta die. It would seem that on the PTR next mod you can get an end game set of PVP gear for tarmalune bars. If this goes live it will be a great addition allowing people to take advantage of their VIP access to get gear.

The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:

1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.

2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.

3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.

4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?

5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.

These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.

If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.

Thanks for your reply.

As as CW, I run Elemental Burning set (everywhere), I have 4 mythic aritfacts, legendary weapons and set (LoL). My ilvl is around 3.7K. Not BiS, but also not low end either.

I agree with all 5 of those points - except perhaps point 5. It's so hard to win when you're pugging unless you just get lucky that there should be some reward anyway. 600 points? Maybe that's the wrong metric and we need some new metric to go by.

I don't find myself dying too fast, not usually, especially if there's a DC (which goes to your point about healing). All I'm saying is that if there's a downward adjustment to healing, there needs to be a simultaneous adjustment to damage too. Maybe not 1 for 1, but both need to be considered because it's the massive uptick in damage that made the massive uptick in healing sources necessary in the first place.

I'm glad we see eye to eye mostly. The reason I'm not a fan of giving AD away for losing is that it sets a poor precedence. In PVE you don't get a consolation prize for not clearing the Boss of a dungeon. The only way to get AD from a dungeon run is to complete it, essentially "winning" your AD as well as getting loot that can be salvaged. So you must be successful, you can't "throw" a dungeon to get AD.

How ticked off would your party be if you were able to come in, get to the boss and say "gg boss" and get 3K ad then stand off to the side till your team left the dungeon? Well that's what it's like when you get people who literally tell you they're only coming in to PVP to say "gg" and hope to cap for 600 points. It's a waste of time for every other of the 9 players hoping to play an actual match.

This is why I say you should only get the AD for successful completion (i.e. winning). Then noone could "throw" matches for a few AD.

greywynd

That might help kill the PvP bots, as well. All they do is dance to the center node, stand, run off the node, stand, run back to the node...

sundance777

It works wonders in PvE, the cooldowns on the potions, and the low healing of the potions as a % of my HP were not sufficient for dungeons and I am not in the mood to buy healing stones. I like the healing from life steal and boons, when you wear them all its a bit much but you don't have to wear them all, it's great to have options on something.

hustin1

tolkienbuff said:

As far as PVE goes it seems to me you would want all healing to come from healing classes thus making them both necessary and relevant not to mention they would have to work harder to keep the team alive vs. angry mobs?

Which...makes it impossible to solo (which is a big part of this game!!!).

hustin1

wachumpong said:

i woudnt say to remove self regen but to nerf it from 100% to 30-50%. its just too much

They should have never changed it in the first place. Prior to mod 6 it gave you a steady trickle of HP but was never OP (I should know: I stacked it). It was useful during combat but it had limits.

drewhayes

tolkienbuff said:

I'm glad we see eye to eye mostly. The reason I'm not a fan of giving AD away for losing is that it sets a poor precedence. In PVE you don't get a consolation prize for not clearing the Boss of a dungeon. The only way to get AD from a dungeon run is to complete it, essentially "winning" your AD as well as getting loot that can be salvaged. So you must be successful, you can't "throw" a dungeon to get AD.

How ticked off would your party be if you were able to come in, get to the boss and say "gg boss" and get 3K ad then stand off to the side till your team left the dungeon? Well that's what it's like when you get people who literally tell you they're only coming in to PVP to say "gg" and hope to cap for 600 points. It's a waste of time for every other of the 9 players hoping to play an actual match.

This is why I say you should only get the AD for successful completion (i.e. winning). Then noone could "throw" matches for a few AD.

Do you feel the same way about Glory rewards?

ltgamesttv

metalldjt said:

dolrey said:

Yes, for players it is possible to gain a lot of regeneration. But each regeneration feat/insignia/boon/mount can be countered by dd feat/insignia/boon/mount. You need just to work well in team and it will be much more easy to push someone back.

Also I would like to add that maybe it will be better to wait for changes in SW and HR. Because for example HR in PvP now provide just CC. But after changes HR will be able to deal much much more damage as it was in early modules. That is why I think that healing will be compensated by improved damage of some classes

exactly thats how i also think, it already does for few classes.

I agree that certain classes need to be targeted for more damage. However I disagree that damage boons/insignias moot out the healing boons/insignias as proven by end game matches where self healing prevents deaths.

Thanks for your reply.

ltgamesttv

Do you mean that only the winning team gets glory? In that case, I'd have to think about it. My main goal is to keep people who are completely not interested in PVP except for the AD gain out. You could argue that some of them just want to get PVP gear, in which case I would say definitely give them glory for the attempt. However, you could also say they're hoping to get PVP gear to salvage or to turn into their guild coffers for "surplus". In which case you may run into a similar problem, albeit most likely on a smaller scale.

demonmonger

You didn't understand what I was saying and assumed that I want to destroy what people worked hard for. This is the opposite of what I was saying.

Everything I and others have built up invested in and worked 8 hours a day or more to gain, always gets thwarted....

playasinnombre

tolkienbuff said:

Do you mean that only the winning team gets glory? In that case, I'd have to think about it. My main goal is to keep people who are completely not interested in PVP except for the AD gain out. You could argue that some of them just want to get PVP gear, in which case I would say definitely give them glory for the attempt. However, you could also say they're hoping to get PVP gear to salvage or to turn into their guild coffers for "surplus". In which case you may run into a similar problem, albeit most likely on a smaller scale.

Yes, that is what I was asking. Several posters have mentioned changing PvP rewards so that only the winning team benefits. This would absolutely kill PvP. If Lvling players, or even lvl 70's that have not yet achieved BiS, cannot get glory rewards, what is the point of PvP? No win = no rewards = no progress. Why play if there is no hope of improvement? So that we can provide someone else with the achievements necessary to unlock more boons?

Also, If I remember correctly, the bare-bones, basic lvl 60 gear available from trade of blades costs 6,000 glory. At loser's rate of 75 glory per match, it would take 80 matches to earn 1 piece of gear. I hardly think anyone would take all that effort for coffer donations... I admit I have no idea what they salvage for, but I think any of the Underdark campaigns would be a far better use of your time.

ltgamesttv

playasinnombre said:

tolkienbuff said:

Do you mean that only the winning team gets glory? In that case, I'd have to think about it. My main goal is to keep people who are completely not interested in PVP except for the AD gain out. You could argue that some of them just want to get PVP gear, in which case I would say definitely give them glory for the attempt. However, you could also say they're hoping to get PVP gear to salvage or to turn into their guild coffers for "surplus". In which case you may run into a similar problem, albeit most likely on a smaller scale.

Yes, that is what I was asking. Several posters have mentioned changing PvP rewards so that only the winning team benefits. This would absolutely kill PvP. If Lvling players, or even lvl 70's that have not yet achieved BiS, cannot get glory rewards, what is the point of PvP? No win = no rewards = no progress. Why play if there is no hope of improvement? So that we can provide someone else with the achievements necessary to unlock more boons?

Also, If I remember correctly, the bare-bones, basic lvl 60 gear available from trade of blades costs 6,000 glory. At loser's rate of 75 glory per match, it would take 80 matches to earn 1 piece of gear. I hardly think anyone would take all that effort for coffer donations... I admit I have no idea what they salvage for, but I think any of the Underdark campaigns would be a far better use of your time.

I would probably propose making glory gear non salvageable so it can only be sold for gold, worn, or used for coffer surplus. In which case I would say increase the amount of glory all players are given so that people interested in PVP can get a gear set faster. My only concern with my statement is for those who are seeking easy, free AD by saying "gg" and expecting to cap for 600 points for their daily.

Thanks for your input.

P.S. If I had my way, they would remove tenacity from gear altogether and give everyone the same amount of base tenacity. Then you could just get gear that gives you the stats you chose to focus on and there wouldn't be so much of a hazing ritual for new PVPers who don't have tenacity gear and get rekt.

mamalion1234

Tone down elven battle. IF poeple want to not get cc they should build for cc resistance not add an enchnat giving 80 % and remove chill stacks and other things!.

ltgamesttv

demonmonger said:

You didn't understand what I was saying and assumed that I want to destroy what people worked hard for. This is the opposite of what I was saying.



Everything I and others have built up invested in and worked 8 hours a day or more to gain, always gets thwarted....

Yes, often things people have worked towards that are too effective gets "thwarted". I had 8 toons decked out with Lostmauth sets till they "thwarted" what was too effective. I had 8 toons originally decked out with high regen, till it got "thwarted", etc., etc. We build towards optimal builds, some of which are too effective and wind up need to be toned down. It sucks, but it happens and sometimes it's best for the game overall.

ltgamesttv

mamalion1234 said:

Tone down elven battle. IF poeple want to not get cc they should build for cc resistance not add an enchnat giving 80 % and remove chill stacks and other things!.

Here's another interesting question. I understand where you're coming from but if they nerf elven HRs will rule the day again. If you don't wear elven you can be almost 100% put in lockdown by a single HR. If there's an HR and a TR with CB and SB gawds help your team. I think this game is CC heavy atm. Without elven, you wouldn't even get to play.

That said, elven should not remove the chill stacks imho, only make them ineffective for CC. They should remain to give damage bonuses to the CW.

Thanks for your input.

kreatyve

As there was an identical thread in the Preview forums, I am merging it with this one.