Nerfed regen gave back 10 times as much healing with weapon set/boons/insignias/artifacts/mounts

ltgamesttv

Several mods back now the devs stated that regen gave too much in terms of reliable self healing. The decision was to nerf regen in combat so that it primarily increased incoming healing as a bonus and only kicked in after combat to give back some of the health lost before returning to combat. Then came the onslaught of every type of internal healing that the devs could come up with. Some examples of this are:

1) Lifesteal with endless consumption. Many classes began running with 20% + Lifesteal and occasionally got 3x as much healing from it.

2) Waterwheel artifact. Many classes, if not all at some point, ran with this artifact to get the heals (100% of your health or 50% with healing depression).

3) Drowned weapons. Procs every 60 seconds and gives 30 seconds worth of heals (50% of your health or 25% in healing depression).

4) Boons. Elven tranquility 20000 HP, Enraged regrowth 20000 HP, Engine Inspiration 20000 HP, Wall of wind 24000 HP or Gale of retribution 24000 HP. All of these should be halved in healing depression, I haven't tested to make sure they are. This also doesn't include the bonuses to lifesteal severity and incoming healing bonuses which contribute to overall self healing.

5) Mount Insignia Bonuses. Vampires craving lifesteal gives you 3% of max HP, Survivors blessing deflecting gives you 3% of your Max HP, Oppressor's reprieve when you are CC'd you get 4% of your Max HP, Barbarian's revelry when you crit you get 1.5% of your Max HP, Champions return when you hit 50% HP you get 20% HP. There are lesser versions of these as well that can either be used separately or stacked (with huge diminishing returns). There are more healing insignias showing on the PTR for next mod as well.

6) Mounts. Skeleton steed using a daily power gives you 20% of your HP, Lion mount healed for 10% HP when attacked over 10 seconds after the shield from the combat power expires.

What we are finding end game is that all these elements combined with healing pots and or any healing classes makes end game PVP a joke. There are exactly two classes on live server right now that can kill at end game. The TR and the GF, only because they have huge burst damage. The TR still needs the ITF buff from the GF to be an effective clearer as everyone also has high HP.

Many an end game Premade has been fought with zero deaths on either side related to this exact problem. A possible solution I would suggest would be to adjust PVP healing depression to 75% and make sure ALL forms of healing are affected. Perhaps excluding player powers thus making Healers more relevant again.

Another suggestion would be to add healing debuffs to classes like SW that can then be very important in PVP causing their foes to experience even less healing from internal/external sources similar to the Shadowtouch boon from dread ring. This would allow some classes to function as debuffs that are very important for wiping a node in PVP.

Bring back killability in PVP. Focus less on internal healing devices like these and more on actual class balance. The reason people want internal healing is because a few classes have all the burst damage and CC to use it appropriately and the rest of the classes must rely on internal healing to keep them alive vs. that type of DPS. Using healing to make all classes unkillable and thus "balanced" isn't true balance. It's boring quite frankly and many end game players will tell you this.

If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.

P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!

irfaan

I agree

vteasy

agreed that the healing is getting out of hand. I would suggest we wait till we see how the balance goes before talking about nerfing healing.

Don't get me wrong, it should be adjusted but I would rather they adjust what they want with the classes first then start fooling around with healing in pvp.

I do like the idea of a player healer (cleric/pally) being more effective than other forms of healing in pvp. However it would be more interesting if it only affected allies. AKA keep your healer alive and your party lives rather than here comes the immortal cleric to hold node 1/3 by herself

ltgamesttv

vteasy said:

agreed that the healing is getting out of hand. I would suggest we wait till we see how the balance goes before talking about nerfing healing.

Don't get me wrong, it should be adjusted but I would rather they adjust what they want with the classes first then start fooling around with healing in pvp.

I do like the idea of a player healer (cleric/pally) being more effective than other forms of healing in pvp. However it would be more interesting if it only affected allies. AKA keep your healer alive and your party lives rather than here comes the immortal cleric to hold node 1/3 by herself

I understand where you're coming from with balancing first then adjusting healing, however I feel these devices are clouding what needs balancing. How can you tell which classes need adjusted, and where, when noone dies? The issue is easy for any end game player to see, and we'd be glad to approach class balance from our experienced standpoint. However if you don't play much end game (as I would guess the Devs do not) you won't be able to tease out the issues because self healing makes it seem more "balanced" than it actually is.

As far as healer tanks. My thought process is always if you can't kill in PVP you should be able to fight 1v1 and not die. It should take a 2v1 to kill you if you're a healing class because you should at least be able to stand and moot out a point if you can't kill your opponent. This goes for Pallies and DCs.

A big problem is that classes like SW and HR are made moot because their DoT DPS is made irrelevant by this type of internal healing. They get reduced to utility classes. Then classes like GWF who have good internal healing and lifesteal and, if all their stacks are up, good DPS but have zero CC that is worth anything are also mooted out. These issues aren't as plain though when all this healing muddies the waters.

Thanks for your reply.

fooditto

Disclaimer: I don't PvP regularly. Grain of salt blah blah, but I figure an outside perspective with just enough knowledge from osmosis to not completely talk from the wrong end and not overly invested in PvP may help.

Rough suggestions below, may be subject to addition/revision. Give it a day or so before kneecapping.

• When in non-open world PvP, disable the following:
  • Boons (except PvP Campaign and Stronghold PvP boons)
    
  • Mount Equip powers
    
  • Mount insignias and insignia set bonuses
    
  • Enchantments (except Overload and maybe Weapon/Armor)
    
• In PvP, restore Life Steal healing to original level, but with the following caveat(s):
  • Life Steal applied as a regeneration effect instead of instantly. The duration needs to be significant enough that attempting to stack enough LS regeneration to outheal damage taken would be a difficult affair, but not impossible. Example: instead of 5k life stolen, it becomes 5000 life regained over 10 seconds (500/sec).
    
  • Place a cap on how much life can be regained via LS per hit. Example: If the cap of life restored by LS was 5k, even if you deal more damage than that, only 5k of the damage dealt would go towards healing you.
    

gankdalf

+1 To this. We have been talking about this problem for months now. Its getting worse with every big update. I have no idea why they keep adding healing on top of healing and then more healing. Its healing on crit, healing on deflect, healing on damage, healing on kills, healing on healing on healing.

Only GF and TR can kill stuff on live and with GF nerf even less kills will be seen in PvP. The healing needs to be toned down a lot or buff some classes damage like CW, HR and SW (dont know how HR/SW are after the balance changes).

kuero21

[Xbox Gamer here] Im doing PVE only and in PVE players are actually not stacking up on all healing sources.

DPS characters usually go with offensive boons and bonuses instead of defensive, of cause one or two defensive sources are nice to have, especially when being a 1,6k IL warlock doing solo content (then your character only survives the combat with more than 2 mobs due to those healing sources).

I have a virtous cleric and because I dont care about dealing dmg being a buffer/ healer, I only went for defensive/ healing boons and bonuses. Although they are next to useless for me considering that I play a virtous cleric.

But if I played PVP again, then I would definitely (no matter which class) stack up on all kind of healing and defensive boons and bonuses because in pvp defense is better than offense. Full pvp gear, all kind of incoming healing sources and shitloads of armor penetration. And of cause 3/3 lathander artifact set + Soulforge enchantment. Even if you should fall, you will have your revenge... immediately.
Thats probably the only way how to "deathmatch".

In my opinion Healers need healing depression as well. Back in mod 5 when I still pvp'ed fully geared pvp clerics only had to pop up astral shield and all dmg was reduced to 0. Now I was mainly a pve player and only had 60% RI. But good clerics still heal more than dmg is done.

For instance the healing over time ticks just of divine glow (a pretty weak healing spell) of my virtous cleric usually heal 60K average, 100K+ on Tanks. Each tick has a chance to proc Engine Inspiration, and if the tick crits it heals additionally for +15% ( due to the heroic feat "Repurpose Soul"). And I do not even use a vorpal/ dread enchantment, I use holy avenger.
If I did pvp with my cleric, opponents wouldnt have a chance to kill me or my team mates due to the huge amount of healing over time.
I'm not that sure about it but I think the Critical Chance Resistance provided of PVP gear does not affect healing spells (never have done pvp on my cleric). So if a high crit virtous cleric in full pvp gear + vorpal/ dread enchantment would join a pvp match... Im pretty sure its just not possible to kill them or their mates around them (if they are fully geared as well).

I really think healing depression needs to affect healers as well, also if they are rightous cleric.

kvet

I think the real issue with killability in PvP are immortal DCs and OPs - especially when the two are next to each other. Doesn't matter how much they heal or even how much DPS you have when EVERYTHING YOU DO - even with north of 60% armor penetration, and regardless of crits, and regardless of how many people are attacking - when EVERY HIT results in 0 damage. I've seen damage entries like: " 0 (100000)" that go on for 10-15s or longer. Long enough that we got bored and just ignored the DC and OP squatting the point, making their immortality irrelevant (which is the only defense against such a thing).

I have to disagree with you on only TRs and GFs being able to get kills. I find the opponents that kill me most often are high-end CWs and HRs for the same reason I'm able to get plenty of kills as a CW as well - CC powers. HR Trappers pecking me to death when I can do *nothing* for 10 seconds is infuriating! In fact, DC/OP aside, my biggest problem with PvP is that kills happen across the board TOO fast. Generally, you can tell your opponent is pvp geared when you don't kill them in under 2 seconds - healing is irrelevant. Those healing abilities are necessary to compensate for the massive power creep, so while calling for a "fix" to the healing sources, you also need to call for a power creep overhaul as well, both will need to happen at the same time. The massive power creep is why you have 1000-200 matches, not the healing creep - when the other team is just unlucky enough to have no or only a couple actual pvp players and therefore get totally crushed - healing doesn't really do the under powered team any good.

ltgamesttv

kvet said:

I think the real issue with killability in PvP are immortal DCs and OPs - especially when the two are next to each other. Doesn't matter how much they heal or even how much DPS you have when EVERYTHING YOU DO - even with north of 60% armor penetration, and regardless of crits, and regardless of how many people are attacking - when EVERY HIT results in 0 damage. I've seen damage entries like: " 0 (100000)" that go on for 10-15s or longer. Long enough that we got bored and just ignored the DC and OP squatting the point, making their immortality irrelevant (which is the only defense against such a thing).

I have to disagree with you on only TRs and GFs being able to get kills. I find the opponents that kill me most often are high-end CWs and HRs for the same reason I'm able to get plenty of kills as a CW as well - CC powers. HR Trappers pecking me to death when I can do *nothing* for 10 seconds is infuriating! In fact, DC/OP aside, my biggest problem with PvP is that kills happen across the board TOO fast. Generally, you can tell your opponent is pvp geared when you don't kill them in under 2 seconds - healing is irrelevant. Those healing abilities are necessary to compensate for the massive power creep, so while calling for a "fix" to the healing sources, you also need to call for a power creep overhaul as well, both will need to happen at the same time. The massive power creep is why you have 1000-200 matches, not the healing creep - when the other team is just unlucky enough to have no or only a couple actual pvp players and therefore get totally crushed - healing doesn't really do the under powered team any good.

I'd be interested to know if you're PVP geared, your IL, if you have Legendary mounts/all insignias. The reason I would ask is because, in my post, I said end game (meaning BIS vs BIS) at that level literally only the GF and TR are node clearers. This has been established in end game matches. Now at mid game anything can kill anything, just some are more effective. I also agree that boons are a huge damage/survivability boost to PVPers. I would LOVE to see across the board changes that would help people who don't primarily PVP become more able to stand in PVP and not insta die. It would seem that on the PTR next mod you can get an end game set of PVP gear for tarmalune bars. If this goes live it will be a great addition allowing people to take advantage of their VIP access to get gear.

The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:

1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.

2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.

3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.

4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?

5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.

These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.

If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.

Thanks for your reply.

silverkelt

I would remove self healing from all aspects (other then op and dc, 50% healing penalty) while flagged for pvp, I would also drop tenacity from the game, then would also cap ARP to 60% for pvp. Regen out of combat would double though..

whoop, I just fixed your pvp system.

I may even come back if they did all of this..

Healers heal.. dps damage.. tanks hold things.. wowzers.

I would also institute a 50% penalty on ap gain source while flagged for pvp.

I would then drop out all mount and comp bonuses in all sources of pvp.. even open world.

I would also dump ambush and all drains.

Bam..

players can just play their class again. The world sings in harmony and things might even be fun.

But alas, even 50% of that is a pure wish list.

ltgamesttv

silverkelt said:

I would remove self healing from all aspects (other then op and dc, 50% healing penalty) while flagged for pvp, I would also drop tenacity from the game, then would also cap ARP to 60% for pvp. Regen out of combat would double though..

whoop, I just fixed your pvp system.

I may even come back if they did all of this..

Healers heal.. dps damage.. tanks hold things.. wowzers.

I would also institute a 50% penalty on ap gain source while flagged for pvp.

I would then drop out all mount and comp bonuses in all sources of pvp.. even open world.

I would also dump ambush and all drains.

Bam..

players can just play their class again. The world sings in harmony and things might even be fun.

But alas, even 50% of that is a pure wish list.

I would agree with all of this except dropping tenacity, I would put it on character sheet. Without tenacity any class can and will one shot with a crit daily (I have hit non tenacity players for greater than 600K damage in PVP for just this reason). It would go from no deaths at end game to a billion deaths and noone able to survive more than a few seconds. The power creep has assured that. Everything else I agree with.

ltgamesttv

kuero21 said:

[Xbox Gamer here] Im doing PVE only and in PVE players are actually not stacking up on all healing sources.

DPS characters usually go with offensive boons and bonuses instead of defensive, of cause one or two defensive sources are nice to have, especially when being a 1,6k IL warlock doing solo content (then your character only survives the combat with more than 2 mobs due to those healing sources).

I have a virtous cleric and because I dont care about dealing dmg being a buffer/ healer, I only went for defensive/ healing boons and bonuses. Although they are next to useless for me considering that I play a virtous cleric.

But if I played PVP again, then I would definitely (no matter which class) stack up on all kind of healing and defensive boons and bonuses because in pvp defense is better than offense. Full pvp gear, all kind of incoming healing sources and shitloads of armor penetration. And of cause 3/3 lathander artifact set + Soulforge enchantment. Even if you should fall, you will have your revenge... immediately.
Thats probably the only way how to "deathmatch".

In my opinion Healers need healing depression as well. Back in mod 5 when I still pvp'ed fully geared pvp clerics only had to pop up astral shield and all dmg was reduced to 0. Now I was mainly a pve player and only had 60% RI. But good clerics still heal more than dmg is done.

For instance the healing over time ticks just of divine glow (a pretty weak healing spell) of my virtous cleric usually heal 60K average, 100K+ on Tanks. Each tick has a chance to proc Engine Inspiration, and if the tick crits it heals additionally for +15% ( due to the heroic feat "Repurpose Soul"). And I do not even use a vorpal/ dread enchantment, I use holy avenger.
If I did pvp with my cleric, opponents wouldnt have a chance to kill me or my team mates due to the huge amount of healing over time.
I'm not that sure about it but I think the Critical Chance Resistance provided of PVP gear does not affect healing spells (never have done pvp on my cleric). So if a high crit virtous cleric in full pvp gear + vorpal/ dread enchantment would join a pvp match... Im pretty sure its just not possible to kill them or their mates around them (if they are fully geared as well).

I really think healing depression needs to affect healers as well, also if they are rightous cleric.

This is interesting coming from a different format and PVE players perspective. Thanks for your comments.

ltgamesttv

As far as PVE goes it seems to me you would want all healing to come from healing classes thus making them both necessary and relevant not to mention they would have to work harder to keep the team alive vs. angry mobs?

ltgamesttv

defiantone99 said:

Of course things are taken away and then sold back to you. I think the problem comes from abuse of the healing toys in PVP. Perhaps a limit to how many of the toys a player can have. One healing insignia per player, one healing boon, etc...

So you think the amount of healing in PVE is fine? PVE content is still challenging?

ltgamesttv

defiantone99 said:

At my IL, no. But most PVE players are glass cannons these days and do not use much healing at all. No healing insignias, all DPS boons, Twisted weapons, etc. I am not sure what healing you are meaning.

Well, Heroic encounters, for example are made easy to solo even though they are supposed to be 3-5+ depending on the size of the encounter. Part of the problem, as I see it, is related to Lifesteal + Insignias which give a ton of incoming healing against mobs. Why give us so much healing that we can solo what is supposed to be group content?

ltgamesttv

zibadawa said:

tolkienbuff said:

zibadawa said:

CAPS LOCK TITLES WOO!!!

Of all the words your title yells at me, none of them mentions you're talking about PvP. I'm glad I correctly surmised before stables were released that they would ruin an already ruined PvP and so pre-emptively abandoned it, though.

I had caps lock on and wasn't paying attention, it wouldn't allow me to go back and change it. Thanks for your thoroughly informative, non-trolly, thoughtful addition to this forum post. I always appreciate it when people truly put effort into their obviously insightful replies.

If you want others to be thoughtful, it might help if you bother to pay enough attention to know if your caps lock key was on while you were writing something. You kind of surrender your basis for criticizing when you can't even manage that much. Using more parsable grammar in the title is also suggested if you want to stay on your high horse.

And isn't this more of a "Player Feedback" or "PvP" forum post, rather than general discussion? You can certainly argue that these are also problematic in PvE, which you seem to be doing now, but you seemed completely focused on PvP initially. Personally, I think the healing is fine in PvE. Whatever challenge there is in PvE has long since been one-shots (in this case including 5 mobs attacking you once each simultaneously). I can't remember if it's ever been the case that people were in meaningful danger of being slowly whittled down to death in PvE. If you survive the hit you tend to be fine, so the healing resources are more of a nominal quality of life thing in my mind.

I don't expect some people to be thoughtful no matter how perfectly parsable my grammer, no matter my use of caps, or despite being respectful to people who actually add something to the conversation. This is because forum trolls abound. There are people who have nothing better to do than to try and cause some disgruntled conversation or argue over trivialities.

To anyone who reads their posts it's quite obvious what their goal is. They never add anything of value or integrity to the conversation because they don't have anything worthwhile to say.

This is a post about healing and the changes made to it. The fact that regen was considered OP but then we've been given more healing than we ever had before and the discussion is if it's necessary both in PVE and in PVP or if only one side is suffering from it. This being a GENERAL discussion about GENERAL game play I don't think I should be relegated to wherever you or other forum trolls feel like placing me or my forum posts.

I understand that when you FINALLY got to your point that you think healing in PVE is fine, this is the type of feedback for discussion I was looking for. I'm glad that you've finally been able to focus your attention on the actual content of the post rather than the headline for it (I realize this is difficult for some). Thanks for your input that PVE healing is appropriate, I would love to see if others agree or disagree with this one bit of relevant discussion buried in your verbiage.

Thanks for your reply.

ltgamesttv

defiantone99 said:

I did not say it was fine. What I am saying is-you can stack healing in PVE through the same means you do in PVP, but you will get kicked cuz you will do less damage than a bot. So, in the end, it is not a problem. The problem is the content being easy to begin with.

I didn't say you thought it was fine, I just replied to your question. However that said I disagree with your premise that you will have bad damage with healing insignias/boons/weapons tbh. I've got all healing boons/drowned weapons/heal artifacts/lifesteal and still DPS with the best of them in dungeons on most any toon. It depends though on your gear/guild boons for DPS in PVE I think. There's only a couple of the insignias that give you much dps related to your companions. Granted they are really good but that still leaves multiple free mount slots for healing insignias. The other thing about that though is in a group it's fine because you'll likely have a healer or pally or both. Thus you get your healing from them. So if they did use all DPS insignias that's great. That's actually what I'd like to see.

What I don't like seeing is people soloing T2 Dungeons in youtube videos because they can maintain enough self heals to do so. I don't like seeing people soloing any "group" content. If they can it means 1) The content is too easy 2) There is too much self heals. At least imho.

bluangeluk

+1 Take away heal boons/insignias, and make pve content more deadly. It is not even slightly challenging.

I never ever want to stand toe to toe with Orcus and have to take off my gear in order to die and reset again. What a joke!

There is no point having heal classes in this game at the moment, save perhaps for in pvp. Being a DC has never been so boring. You are just about to heal someone and poof... their health is full from some unknown source that you didn't proc. No one builds for surviving anymore because they are constantly in a state of healing hp, so they build for pure dps. Dungeons are completed in a matter of minutes and all in all, it's extremely lacking in fun.

I remember better days, where Castle Never runs were hard, and picking up a group to run it could keep you in front of the pc for hours. I definitely remember joining some 2 hour runs, they were long and a whole bunch of fun!

Let DC's and Healing OPs do the healing, give us something to do, give us a challenge again.

snotty

Sorry, but as a long time player I can say tenacity and really, pvp gear in general ruined pvp. Before that HAMSTER was added 90% of pvpers were rocking CN gear ( which wasn't hard to get) with freaking R4 enchants, maybe a lucky few had R5s. And since at that time almost all builds were viable builds, you could survive even with a "bad" build which made pvp way more fun.

Admittedly, Mod 6 didn't help but push pvp off the cliff, still, once they added pvp gear and tenacity the pvp matches started to become more and more 1 sided. The power creep isn't helping but also its as bad as some would make it out to be.

Also, lets not forget, you really shouldn't base the game around BiS since the majority of the players will probably never achieve it. I honestly miss PvP, I wish it could go back to the old days, back when it was fun and the main complaint was the lack of maps.

List of issues with PvP is so long Im not sure there is any quick fix for it. They could literally devote an entire mod to just trying to rebuild PvP into something fun for all.

ltgamesttv

snotty said:

Sorry, but as a long time player I can say tenacity and really, pvp gear in general ruined pvp. Before that **** was added 90% of pvpers were rocking CN gear ( which wasn't hard to get) with freaking R4 enchants, maybe a lucky few had R5s. And since at that time almost all builds were viable builds, you could survive even with a "bad" build which made pvp way more fun.

Admittedly, Mod 6 didn't help but push pvp off the cliff, still, once they added pvp gear and tenacity the pvp matches started to become more and more 1 sided. The power creep isn't helping but also its as bad as some would make it out to be.

Also, lets not forget, you really shouldn't base the game around BiS since the majority of the players will probably never achieve it. I honestly miss PvP, I wish it could go back to the old days, back when it was fun and the main complaint was the lack of maps.

List of issues with PvP is so long Im not sure there is any quick fix for it. They could literally devote an entire mod to just trying to rebuild PvP into something fun for all.

I can agree with most of this but tbh, it's not the point of this discussion. I would love to go back to mod 2, tone down the sentinel build and leave everything else as it was. However, this is a pipe dream.

More importantly what do you think about the healing in both PVE and PVP related to gear/insignias/mounts/artifacts?

greywynd

Most people build with some form of self healing in mind because the majority in PvE are solo. They may run with friends or guildies in dungeons and skirmishes, but mostly they play by themselves when they're out in the wide world.

santralafax

tolkienbuff said:

If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.

P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!

I quit playing PVP at the beginning of Maze Engine because of its endless list of broken things. To the OP, I agree that regeneration needs to be brought back as it was--there is so much else to complain about. I carry a stone of health in PVE.

But you might have started with ArPen. You can have the Stronghold boon, rock Darks in your offensive slots, and trot around on a multimillion AD axebeak and still not have enough.

Tenacity is a wrecking ball for crit, so bye-bye Vorpal, azure enchants, etc. Everyone gets to carry Feytouched.

Do you prefer Negation or Elven Battle? Choice? There's your choices.

You say you wanted a Hybrid build??? Hahahahahahah.

santralafax

bluangeluk said:

+1 Take away heal boons/insignias, and make pve content more deadly. It is not even slightly challenging.

I never ever want to stand toe to toe with Orcus and have to take off my gear in order to die and reset again. What a joke!

There is no point having heal classes in this game at the moment, save perhaps for in pvp. Being a DC has never been so boring. You are just about to heal someone and poof... their health is full from some unknown source that you didn't proc. No one builds for surviving anymore because they are constantly in a state of healing hp, so they build for pure dps. Dungeons are completed in a matter of minutes and all in all, it's extremely lacking in fun.

I remember better days, where Castle Never runs were hard, and picking up a group to run it could keep you in front of the pc for hours. I definitely remember joining some 2 hour runs, they were long and a whole bunch of fun!

Let DC's and Healing OPs do the healing, give us something to do, give us a challenge again.

You don't happen to PUG, do you?

revan06100

bluangeluk said:

+1 Take away heal boons/insignias, and make pve content more deadly. It is not even slightly challenging.

I never ever want to stand toe to toe with Orcus and have to take off my gear in order to die and reset again. What a joke!

There is no point having heal classes in this game at the moment, save perhaps for in pvp. Being a DC has never been so boring. You are just about to heal someone and poof... their health is full from some unknown source that you didn't proc. No one builds for surviving anymore because they are constantly in a state of healing hp, so they build for pure dps. Dungeons are completed in a matter of minutes and all in all, it's extremely lacking in fun.

I remember better days, where Castle Never runs were hard, and picking up a group to run it could keep you in front of the pc for hours. I definitely remember joining some 2 hour runs, they were long and a whole bunch of fun!

Let DC's and Healing OPs do the healing, give us something to do, give us a challenge again.

Speak for yourself, without a support class (or two) in ECC or EGWD, you won't go far.
Stop saying that dungeons are too easy, they might be easy with a 4k IL team, or a perfect class combination, but they're not too easy for 90% of the players...
I have a 3.9 GWF, and a 2.9 GF, and, if i end up with a random team, then even ETOS can be difficult.

santralafax

revan06100 said:

Speak for yourself, without a support class (or two) in ECC or EGWD, you won't go far.
Stop saying that dungeons are too easy, they might be easy with a 4k IL team, or a perfect class combination, but they're not too easy for 90% of the players...
I have a 3.9 GWF, and a 2.9 GF, and, if i end up with a random team, then even ETOS can be difficult.

+1

demonmonger

Dude.. he'll no.

Each time we pay to build our characters someone sneezes to knock down our card castle.

I built my character based on regeneration first... 6000+ regeneration with buffs and maxing artifacts, then regeneration got nerfed.

Next I built my character around lifesteal, and now you are asking for it to get nerfed.


Instead of asking for life steal nerf, ask for stronghold boon nerfs!

sorce

zibadawa said:

tolkienbuff said:

zibadawa said:

CAPS LOCK TITLES WOO!!!

Of all the words your title yells at me, none of them mentions you're talking about PvP. I'm glad I correctly surmised before stables were released that they would ruin an already ruined PvP and so pre-emptively abandoned it, though.

I had caps lock on and wasn't paying attention, it wouldn't allow me to go back and change it. Thanks for your thoroughly informative, non-trolly, thoughtful addition to this forum post. I always appreciate it when people truly put effort into their obviously insightful replies.

If you want others to be thoughtful, it might help if you bother to pay enough attention to know if your caps lock key was on while you were writing something. You kind of surrender your basis for criticizing when you can't even manage that much. Using more parsable grammar in the title is also suggested if you want to stay on your high horse.

If anyone actually paid attention, you'd know that when you open a post on the Vanilla forums, all the titles are in all caps. Go check out any other post in this forum - once you open it the title is in All caps. When looking at the sub section itself, the title is in standard upper/lower (as it was typed by the original poster).

superent666

I can answer for PVE only: My DO faithful´s healing feels completely superfluous more often than not. Of course my dc can outpace the myriad HoT effects or small heals from a ton of sources with a divine BoH or Capstone. Yay-.- He sometimes feels giddy to have found a really horrible pug team that may require some healing but it doesn´t happen often (admittedly I rarely pug ECC, EGWD, eDemo so I dunno about those).
My cw is a virtual healing machine that doesn´t require a dc for healing, too (rene capstone being only a very minor factor in that). I try to remember to at least switch the life steal guild boon for the defense boon if a healer dc is around. Not that it matters, really. A dc may make my little control wuss feel like an actual dps going beserk with the fireworks due to damage buffing but healing...not needed. And yah, I think that´s bad.

ltgamesttv

superent666 said:

I can answer for PVE only: My DO faithful´s healing feels completely superfluous more often than not. Of course my dc can outpace the myriad HoT effects or small heals from a ton of sources with a divine BoH or Capstone. Yay-.- He sometimes feels giddy to have found a really horrible pug team that may require some healing but it doesn´t happen often (admittedly I rarely pug ECC, EGWD, eDemo so I dunno about those).
My cw is a virtual healing machine that doesn´t require a dc for healing, too (rene capstone being only a very minor factor in that). I try to remember to at least switch the life steal guild boon for the defense boon if a healer dc is around. Not that it matters, really. A dc may make my little control wuss feel like an actual dps going beserk with the fireworks due to damage buffing but healing...not needed. And yah, I think that´s bad.

I see a lot of healers going "buffbot" because of just that reason. Most classes are, at least somewhat, self sustaining with internal healing. I'd like to hear from more DC's and healadin's and see if they concur. Thanks for your input!

kreatyve

This thread is fine for General Discussion (PC) subforum. Please stop reporting to have it moved to PvP subforum. Thank you.

ltgamesttv

santralafax said:

tolkienbuff said:

If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.

P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!

I quit playing PVP at the beginning of Maze Engine because of its endless list of broken things. To the OP, I agree that regeneration needs to be brought back as it was--there is so much else to complain about. I carry a stone of health in PVE.

But you might have started with ArPen. You can have the Stronghold boon, rock Darks in your offensive slots, and trot around on a multimillion AD axebeak and still not have enough.

Tenacity is a wrecking ball for crit, so bye-bye Vorpal, azure enchants, etc. Everyone gets to carry Feytouched.

Do you prefer Negation or Elven Battle? Choice? There's your choices.

You say you wanted a Hybrid build??? Hahahahahahah.

You can build enough armpen to be effective against cloth/leather wearers. You can build enough power to be effective against heavy armor wearers. Crit is HIGHLY effected by tenacity, however if it wasn't that 60K iceknife you got hit with would be 150K or more. Insta death everywhere. My GF crits for 4-600K with a feytouched which is then mitigated down by tenacity. Would you prefer I put on a vorpal and hit you without tenacity?. My GWF can hit for 200K with a crit IBS, this is also tempered by tenacity.

My point is if you want to get rid of tenacity you MUST tone down people's stats. The power creep makes everyone capable of one shots. The two ways of decreasing that damage is 1) Giving everyone an extra layer of defense against it (tenacity) 2) Writing difficult code that, to some degree, equalizes stats so that crazy burst damage won't occur.

My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.

However none of this really has anything to do with my discussion which is about the self healing that is available. There is so much that end gamers are almost unkillable in both PVE and PVP. I don't feel this should be the case.