I did a few PuG runs the other day. TBH the main problem is not a ltp, but a learn to read (ltr) issue.
Random CN, I joined with my GF at the last boss fight. The 3k+ GF was not able to tank it. After I asked FIVE times, if he tanks or not, another party member told me, that I should tank and the other GF agreed, ltr.
I lost aggro in seconds. Problem was, all DDs were melee, so we whiped. I asked, if someone uses a pet with forced aggro and I told the other GF NOT to use tab, and other aggro skills.
We whiped again. I posted for the other GF, what skills not to use, it took some time before we whiped. I inspected the companions of my teammates and asked the HR if he can read and if so, if he could be bothered to read the description of his summoned companion. He could, he did, he changed his companion without a word (forced aggro...).
The best run we had, we did 80-90%, before we whiped bc of the green orbs, after ca. 15-20 minutes. Most of the players had 2.5k+IL, my GF is a tactican with +120% DR.
I go PuG either as a challenge or bc I am to lazy to lfg, but the level of incompetence you find is mind blowing. I dont mind, if ppl dont use the 'best' build for dmg, buff or whatever they want to do, but it seems, that half the population never read the tool tips of their own skills, their summoned companions or bothered to learn any boss mechanics at all.
I think the issue here is, as @thefabricant said, that in most runs there are 1 or 2 well build 3k+ players, who do the job, so many players never bothered to put any effort into minmaxing their own chars. This results in 3k+ GWFs who cry for more dps and do less dmg then a similar geared DC, GFs without ITF, DCs without DG, HG or AA or many other things.
I lost aggro in seconds. Problem was, all DDs were melee, so we whiped. I asked, if someone uses a pet with forced aggro and I told the other GF NOT to use tab, and other aggro skills.
It's usually GWFs running up and using their taunt not realizing that Orcus is going to turn and one hit them.
I agree with whoever made reference to the "Have's" and the "Have Not's", and I hope the Dev's keep in mind that the game needs to cater for the masses as well as the 97th percentile players that form the majority of the ppl that post on these forums.
I really want to doubt they'll pull a Mod 6 for the second time. If they do, this game is toast.
The voice of this board is really disconnected to the majority of the player base. I do mostly pugs because alot of my guild is in different time-zones. I still see wipes in Shores of Tuern and Lair of Lostmauth all the time.
I have seen shores wipes in the last few months. They usually happen with weak parties running without a tank. Its a quick fix to get one though once someone leaves the party.
Lostmouth wipes are usually due to lag or cluelessness. I am familiar with this problem due to my lagirific internet connection. The dragon's rock drop can wipe out a whole party if there is even a little bit of lag. The clueless problam can usually be fixed by asking in party if everyone has run this dungeon before and if they now what to do with the scorps and where to run when the dragon flies away.
Or asking them to not AFK during the rock phase. Blows my mind every time seeing runs that take down the first phase in seconds and then they AFK and get wiped by rocks.
This results in 3k+ GWFs who cry for more dps and do less dmg then a similar geared DC, GFs without ITF, DCs without DG, HG or AA or many other things.
Wait what? What are you getting at? They can't be that bad. The only way for GWFs not doing damage is when they miss IBS most of the time and not put in the trust on the power of at-wills.
This results in 3k+ GWFs who cry for more dps and do less dmg then a similar geared DC, GFs without ITF, DCs without DG, HG or AA or many other things.
Wait what? What are you getting at? They can't be that bad. The only way for GWFs not doing damage is when they miss IBS most of the time and not put in the trust on the power of at-wills.
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
Holy moly. They are really that bad. Ughhhhhhh. I'm tilted from just reading.
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is.
I am done. I will not run dungeons anymore until the final boss of every epic dungeon (excluding Kessel's Retreat) is nerfed. If the requirement for a dungeon is 2k iLevel, don't you think a party of 2.5k's should be able to run it? I just tried to run epic Grey Wolf Den with me (a 2.5k GF), a 2.4k DC, and 3 dps that were 3.5k+ (one of them was even 4k) and we failed the final boss. That boss should have been a cake walk with all that dps. And this is not the first time I have failed a dungeon with such spectacular offensive power. The dungeons as a whole are fine, but it's a waste of time to run them until you nerf the end bosses. You want to put in another tier of dungeons in the next module, yet you haven't even fixed the tiers we have. Please fix this before you start losing players.
answer is short and easy: L2P. what cryptic was really doing nicely (during the whole history of this game) is setting gs/ilvl margins for PVE. In mod5 CN required 9800 GS, and I can pretty much assure you that proper party with proper skills and proper coordination was doing that with ease without any exploits. In mod6 with (almost) 1shotting mobs when people were still using augment pets, 2500 ilvl was just enough to run all dungeons with proper party, with proper skills and proper coordination. Now with overpowered insignias, bondings, SH boons, etc, with nerfed damage from mobs and bosses, it's even easier to do these dungeons than in mod5. But even without SH boons, insignias, bonsings, etc, it's way easier to do it than it was in mod6.
Advice: gather data about your class and other classes: there's lot of good guides on these forums. Check youtube, check wiki, make a proper build for your GF (it's crucial to understand how you should tank in this game), make your friends whom you run with to do the same. If you pick up people from LFG, make sure that you are at least gathering proper party combination. Communicate with your party to make sure that every member of the party is doing his job. Use voice comm in hard situations to coordinate the party. And you will soon notice how easy PVE is in this game.
As for 4k people, that were with you: actually 4k doesn't guarantee that people know what they are doing. But any 4k dps that knows what he should do can probably solo GWD with ease, as it's still the easiest T2. Best regards.
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
edited July 2016
You guys are funny, saying how t2 are doable with 2k IL teams and everything, specially people saying "I have 2k or 2.5 IL and 22k Defense", 22k Defense ?? IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to have 22k defense with a 2.5 IL toon, impossible, unless you have guild boons or bondings, wich not everybody can afford to get, nor be able to join guilds that big... Another thing i want to say to these people, dungeons should be doable in many ways, not just one way, you're not going to, every single time, go on youtube and watch a video of how the dungeon has to be done to be successful... It's like saying, you want to do dps? Then go on youtube and search for the specific build for it... The main issue of this game is that, things can be done ONE way, and no other, you have a GWF and wanna do dps, there is one build for that, you want to successfully finish EGWD, then watch a video on how it is achievable... How is that enjoyable, you end up with tons of GWF using exact same powers, GF using exact same powers, and all of that, in order to maximize their dps or just be able to finish hard dungeons, i'm sorry , but no, i agree with the post...
You guys are funny, saying how t2 are doable with 2k IL teams and everything, specially people saying "I have 2k or 2.5 IL and 22k Defense", 22k Defense ?? IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to have 22k defense with a 2.5 IL toon, impossible, unless you have guild boons or bondings, which not everybody can afford to get, nor be able to join guilds that big...
Of course not everybody can afford to get. You need to save your AD. Otherwise, how would someone get it to 2.5k IL without spending it in AH for rank 7 enchants?
Another thing i want to say to these people, dungeons should be doable in many ways, not just one way, you're not going to, every single time, go on youtube and watch a video of how the dungeon has to be done to be successful...
It's like saying, you want to do dps? Then go on youtube and search for the specific build for it... The main issue of this game is that, things can be done ONE way, and no other, you have a GWF and wanna do dps, there is one build for that, you want to successfully finish EGWD, then watch a video on how it is achievable...
GWF problem is GWF problem. No need to shake our salt bottles. Chill. It's already in general consensus that we all agree that GWFs has only one viable build in PvE.
How is that enjoyable, you end up with tons of GWF using exact same powers, GF using exact same powers, and all of that, in order to maximize their dps or just be able to finish hard dungeons, i'm sorry , but no, i agree with the post...
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
This is out of line, as it may be a case of language barrier. not everyone is playing in english and so encounters you assume everyone knows by name can be confusing to others who play in different languages.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Had you asked him to slot 'Fox's Cunning' rather than 'Fox Shift' he would probably have known immediately what you were referring to as that is the correct Encounter Name for those two powers. When you swap powers, you don't see 'Swap with Fox Shift', it's 'Swap with Fox's Cunning'. Communication problems in game can be caused just as often by people not giving clear directions or not using the correct terms as they can be by people not knowing their classes.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Had you asked him to slot 'Fox's Cunning' rather than 'Fox Shift' he would probably have known immediately what you were referring to as that is the correct Encounter Name for those two powers. When you swap powers, you don't see 'Swap with Fox Shift', it's 'Swap with Fox's Cunning'. Communication problems in game can be caused just as often by people not giving clear directions or not using the correct terms as they can be by people not knowing their classes.
So it is ok, to run lvl 70 dungeons and dont even know the names of your own skills? I did not need fox cunning, but the dodge from fox shift, so I asked for it. This is one of the best feats of HRs, so imo a HR should know the name of this skill. Hell, I knew the name of this skill BEFORE I played HR.
I know, that some ppl playing just one character are better, then I am with my 6 chars, but at last I know, how to build and gear them and which powers to use.
Compared to other games this is a joke, difficulty wise, and there are still ppl who cant complete a T1 dungeon without others to carry them.
This 'I want endgame dungeons viable for different ILs, parties and builds' is BS. The dungeon should be a challenge. If it is doable with 3k IL, it is easy with 4k. If it is doable with a rainbow party, it is easy with a minmaxed premade. If it is doable with a sentinel GWF, it is easy with a destroyer SM.
Difficult dungeons should need a specific group (tank, DC, 3 DDs) to complete with all 5 of them knowing what they do. BTW I wrote DC and not OP heal or DC, bc OP heal is inferior in endgame groups to a DC by far. OP tank atm, too, but we will have to wait and see till after the GF 'rework'.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Had you asked him to slot 'Fox's Cunning' rather than 'Fox Shift' he would probably have known immediately what you were referring to as that is the correct Encounter Name for those two powers. When you swap powers, you don't see 'Swap with Fox Shift', it's 'Swap with Fox's Cunning'. Communication problems in game can be caused just as often by people not giving clear directions or not using the correct terms as they can be by people not knowing their classes.
So it is ok, to run lvl 70 dungeons and dont even know the names of your own skills? I did not need fox cunning, but the dodge from fox shift, so I asked for it. This is one of the best feats of HRs, so imo a HR should know the name of this skill. Hell, I knew the name of this skill BEFORE I played HR.
I know, that some ppl playing just one character are better, then I am with my 6 chars, but at last I know, how to build and gear them and which powers to use.
Erm....asterotg you might want to go back into the game and check up on which powers you think you are using with your HR. Fox Shift does NOT provide any kind of dodge, it is Fox's Cunning that gives the really useful dodge:
Rank 1 Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
You guys are funny, saying how t2 are doable with 2k IL teams and everything, specially people saying "I have 2k or 2.5 IL and 22k Defense", 22k Defense ?? IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to have 22k defense with a 2.5 IL toon, impossible, unless you have guild boons or bondings, which not everybody can afford to get, nor be able to join guilds that big...
Of course not everybody can afford to get. You need to save your AD. Otherwise, how would someone get it to 2.5k IL without spending it in AH for rank 7 enchants?
Another thing i want to say to these people, dungeons should be doable in many ways, not just one way, you're not going to, every single time, go on youtube and watch a video of how the dungeon has to be done to be successful...
It's like saying, you want to do dps? Then go on youtube and search for the specific build for it... The main issue of this game is that, things can be done ONE way, and no other, you have a GWF and wanna do dps, there is one build for that, you want to successfully finish EGWD, then watch a video on how it is achievable...
GWF problem is GWF problem. No need to shake our salt bottles. Chill. It's already in general consensus that we all agree that GWFs has only one viable build in PvE.
How is that enjoyable, you end up with tons of GWF using exact same powers, GF using exact same powers, and all of that, in order to maximize their dps or just be able to finish hard dungeons, i'm sorry , but no, i agree with the post...
1) Because added up rank 7 give you up to 22k Defense ? Since when? Save up your AD, i think that's very logical isn't it ? You don't need to point that out either... I'd like to see a full group of 2.5k IL finish EGWD without using tricks and exploits, or specific class combination... 2) What's your point here? Before mod6, NW use to be very complete, content and possibilty of build wise, and dungeons use to be doable with any type of classe combination and powers... 3) GWF doesn't have one viable build in PVE, it does however have one viable DPS build... nuance... 4) Can you comment your linked video, i'm not a big fan of Manga's, and i can't be bothered watching 13min of boringness either
1) Because added up rank 7 give you up to 22k Defense ? Since when? Save up your AD, i think that's very logical isn't it ? You don't need to point that out either... I'd like to see a full group of 2.5k IL finish EGWD without using tricks and exploits, or specific class combination... 2) What's your point here? Before mod6, NW use to be very complete, content and possibilty of build wise, and dungeons use to be doable with any type of classe combination and powers... 3) GWF doesn't have one viable build in PVE, it does however have one viable DPS build... nuance... 4) Can you comment your linked video, i'm not a big fan of Manga's, and i can't be bothered watching 13min of boringness either
1. It's not. I said that players should qualify themselves to epic Demogorgon first before start the bondings step. 2. Used to. New players don't experience it like you do and play them as-is. So, who's the one complaining? 3. Okay. 4. It's already cut out for you. Nevermind if you're that disinterested in it.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Had you asked him to slot 'Fox's Cunning' rather than 'Fox Shift' he would probably have known immediately what you were referring to as that is the correct Encounter Name for those two powers. When you swap powers, you don't see 'Swap with Fox Shift', it's 'Swap with Fox's Cunning'. Communication problems in game can be caused just as often by people not giving clear directions or not using the correct terms as they can be by people not knowing their classes.
So it is ok, to run lvl 70 dungeons and dont even know the names of your own skills? I did not need fox cunning, but the dodge from fox shift, so I asked for it. This is one of the best feats of HRs, so imo a HR should know the name of this skill. Hell, I knew the name of this skill BEFORE I played HR.
I know, that some ppl playing just one character are better, then I am with my 6 chars, but at last I know, how to build and gear them and which powers to use.
Erm....asterotg you might want to go back into the game and check up on which powers you think you are using with your HR. Fox Shift does NOT provide any kind of dodge, it is Fox's Cunning that gives the really useful dodge:
Rank 1 Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
You are right, the dodge is from fox cunning, you were wrong, the encounter is not called fox cunning, it has two names.
Feat is not just features you can slot in NV, but an english word 'a noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement'. Due to the fact that the power is one of the best features of the HR I called it a feat, not bc it is a heroic feat. You are either looking for things to correct or you are ... .
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Had you asked him to slot 'Fox's Cunning' rather than 'Fox Shift' he would probably have known immediately what you were referring to as that is the correct Encounter Name for those two powers. When you swap powers, you don't see 'Swap with Fox Shift', it's 'Swap with Fox's Cunning'. Communication problems in game can be caused just as often by people not giving clear directions or not using the correct terms as they can be by people not knowing their classes.
So it is ok, to run lvl 70 dungeons and dont even know the names of your own skills? I did not need fox cunning, but the dodge from fox shift, so I asked for it. This is one of the best feats of HRs, so imo a HR should know the name of this skill. Hell, I knew the name of this skill BEFORE I played HR.
I know, that some ppl playing just one character are better, then I am with my 6 chars, but at last I know, how to build and gear them and which powers to use.
Erm....asterotg you might want to go back into the game and check up on which powers you think you are using with your HR. Fox Shift does NOT provide any kind of dodge, it is Fox's Cunning that gives the really useful dodge:
Rank 1 Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
You are right, the dodge is from fox cunning, you were wrong, the encounter is not called fox cunning, it has two names.
Feat is not just features you can slot in NV, but an english word 'a noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement'. Due to the fact that the power is one of the best features of the HR I called it a feat, not bc it is a heroic feat. You are either looking for things to correct or you are ... .
This doesn't really matter, feat has a more specific meaning in Neverwinter. Sometimes you're better off just admitting when you're wrong.
So you get hanged up, that I use feat in a common and not a NW specific way and that the game displays the range name first and sometimes just the ranged name, but it is ok to play a HR as main and dont know fox shift or the fact, that the HR can give the party a dodge? Biased much?
The fact, that a player asks the HR for the dodge should be enough. Imo a good HR would slot it on his own, if he sees, that the party has no heal, a tank, that cant tank for 1 second and 4 of 5 players (him included) spent most of the time running from spawn to the action or waiting, if the CW can solo the boss.
This is a free world. You can have your opinion, that I have to ask a HR player, to 'plz use the lvl 50 encounter power called fox cunning in range stance for the dodge'. Otherwise the HR has every right to ignore me and it is my fault, that the party whipes time after time.
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
Holy moly. They are really that bad. Ughhhhhhh. I'm tilted from just reading.
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Different language? Understandable if it is. Lost in translation, maybe?
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class. No class (except the OP devo) is capable of healing as much as a DC, so why it should be allowed the other way around ? The other problem is, wich is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
Holy moly. They are really that bad. Ughhhhhhh. I'm tilted from just reading.
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Different language? Understandable if it is. Lost in translation, maybe?
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class. No class (except the OP devo) is capable of healing as much as a DC, so why it should be allowed the other way around ? The other problem is, wich is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
Well you certainly don't know much about what group composition can do. Devotion OP and DPS DC or double DC with different setups can buff the living hell out of 2 DPS, 3 if no tank present.
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class.
Of course there is. Except that I keep track of stat buffs and debuffs. Break the Spirit, Prophecy of Doom and Divine Glow is there on our first fight with Fulminorax. DC players that chose Righteous Path are buff/debuff builds. The only difference is slotting Daunting Light and Chains of Blazing Light in the encounter.
The other problem is, which is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
lol no no no....You can't force someone to assume a role. If you get hit due to reds, you just get bombarded by insults and flames.
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
Holy moly. They are really that bad. Ughhhhhhh. I'm tilted from just reading.
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Different language? Understandable if it is. Lost in translation, maybe?
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class. No class (except the OP devo) is capable of healing as much as a DC, so why it should be allowed the other way around ? The other problem is, wich is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
Well you certainly don't know much about what group composition can do. Devotion OP and DPS DC or double DC with different setups can buff the living hell out of 2 DPS, 3 if no tank present.
Yes, except that your argument works only with premade, don't forget the class requirements... And yes, i do know how much buffed you get with 2 or even 3 support classes in a group...
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class.
Of course there is. Except that I keep track of stat buffs and debuffs. Break the Spirit, Prophecy of Doom and Divine Glow is there on our first fight with Fulminorax. DC players that chose Righteous Path are buff/debuff builds. The only difference is slotting Daunting Light and Chains of Blazing Light in the encounter.
The other problem is, which is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
lol no no no....You can't force someone to assume a role. If you get hit due to reds, you just get bombarded by insults and flames.
Yes, yes yes... We both know that red zones are not the only reason you can die... And to assume a role ? You already accept and decide the role you are going to be by choosing your class, that's the whole point of being able to choose either a class that dps, or a class that is made to support a group... Orcus melee strike hits for 700k, that is not a red zone, and practically undodgeable, every single boss can hit and one shoot you without even using DOTs, sou you're telling me that, you are just supposed to die, whatever you do, just because there is no support class to heal or buff you ? No, i'm sorry, but DC's playing DPS path is fine in big instance like Edemo or Tiamat, but when it comes to a dungeon, specially pick up, then you need ( most of the time) a healer class in order to go forth into that dungeon, otherwise, it's wipe over wipe, until everyone eventually get out of it...
Yes, yes yes... We both know that red zones are not the only reason you can die... And to assume a role ? You already accept and decide the role you are going to be by choosing your class, that's the whole point of being able to choose either a class that dps, or a class that is made to support a group...
Orcus melee strike hits for 700k, that is not a red zone, and practically undodgeable, every single boss can hit and one shoot you without even using DOTs, sou you're telling me that, you are just supposed to die, whatever you do, just because there is no support class to heal or buff you ? No, i'm sorry, but DC's playing DPS path is fine in big instance like Edemo or Tiamat, but when it comes to a dungeon, specially pick up, then you need ( most of the time) a healer class in order to go forth into that dungeon, otherwise, it's wipe over wipe, until everyone eventually get out of it...
Are you rejecting a part of the community where players have the freedom to choose what to do with their class and build? About the Orcus stuff, yes, it's how it should be if no heals and buffs. Then again, do you want to entrust your life to someone else, who's a total stranger?
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
Yes, yes yes... We both know that red zones are not the only reason you can die... And to assume a role ? You already accept and decide the role you are going to be by choosing your class, that's the whole point of being able to choose either a class that dps, or a class that is made to support a group...
Orcus melee strike hits for 700k, that is not a red zone, and practically undodgeable, every single boss can hit and one shoot you without even using DOTs, sou you're telling me that, you are just supposed to die, whatever you do, just because there is no support class to heal or buff you ? No, i'm sorry, but DC's playing DPS path is fine in big instance like Edemo or Tiamat, but when it comes to a dungeon, specially pick up, then you need ( most of the time) a healer class in order to go forth into that dungeon, otherwise, it's wipe over wipe, until everyone eventually get out of it...
Are you rejecting a part of the community where players have the freedom to choose what to do with their class and build? About the Orcus stuff, yes, it's how it should be if no heals and buffs. Then again, do you want to entrust your life to someone else, who's a total stranger?
No i don't reject players choices to play the way they want, but that's how it is now, if you queue alone for any dungeon, then you expect the support classes to do their job, otherwise you go premade, wich where other players will be aware of your role. If you end up with 3k IL + players, that's fine, we all know a good GWF can solo pretty much everything, but as you said, if you end up with unaware players, and as a DC, do a DPS job instead of a pure support, then eventually it will be a fail. So in fact, i'm not blaming players, but more the queue system restrictions, and how little informations we have of the group we queued with...
About Orcus, i disagree, no Heal is capable of healing a flat 700k damages, and average DC's or OP heal don't have the power to buff in order to reduce Orcus hits to not get killed, unless you give a good 30 seconds, for all the buffs to build up... As i mentioned it in another topic, the issue here is not the difficulty of dungeons, but how many debuffs and buffs you can stack, that can make your group nearly invincible, regardless the IL, a good combination of powers/skills/feats and weapon enchants can down a boss dmg near 0...
No one really plays blind, you don't choose a class for no reason, even if it's just for the design, there is always a reason, and for someone who really does not know the role of each class, it's difficult to take a wild guess for each of them. Guardian fighter = defender = tank Devoted Cleric = Support/Religious = heals Great weapon Fighter = Striker = DPS So even for someone who would start NW as his/her first MMO, there are tooltips on each class, and your brain for the rest
Erm....asterotg you might want to go back into the game and check up on which powers you think you are using with your HR. Fox Shift does NOT provide any kind of dodge, it is Fox's Cunning that gives the really useful dodge:
Rank 1 Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
Umm... you might want to log in to your HR account & spend a little more time playing it before you offer others advice on the forums. Fox Shift DOES provide a dodge.... for you. Not your party. Just you. & it's a WAY better dodge than the silly shift key gives you. Most often the HR's "dodge" leaves you still sitting in red when the immunity runs out. Not so with Fox Shift. What you want is for ME to use Fox's Cunning to dodge for you. Sheesh. Dodge your own red-hot ball of death, or whatever. Oh, & you might want to go outside the glass house before throwing that stone.
I did a EDemo run with 4k zerg, were the DC outdpsed a 4.1k GWF. The GWF complained to the DC, that he did not heal enough. The DC (righteous) told him, to never again answer, when he asks for dps and told him, that he should not need a DC to hold his hands at this IL.
Holy moly. They are really that bad. Ughhhhhhh. I'm tilted from just reading.
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
Different language? Understandable if it is. Lost in translation, maybe?
That's an old debate, should there be DC Dps out there. My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class. No class (except the OP devo) is capable of healing as much as a DC, so why it should be allowed the other way around ? The other problem is, wich is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you... Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
You did see, that I wrote about a 4k+ GWF getting outdpsed by a DC and crying for heals in an EDemo run?
You cant heal one hits and everything else should be instantly refilled by life leech, if you are a 4k+ GWF with boatloads of buffs/ debuffs applied. If you and your group have a certain IL, you dont need a healer, you want a buffer, to be done faster.
Comments
Random CN, I joined with my GF at the last boss fight. The 3k+ GF was not able to tank it. After I asked FIVE times, if he tanks or not, another party member told me, that I should tank and the other GF agreed, ltr.
I lost aggro in seconds. Problem was, all DDs were melee, so we whiped. I asked, if someone uses a pet with forced aggro and I told the other GF NOT to use tab, and other aggro skills.
We whiped again. I posted for the other GF, what skills not to use, it took some time before we whiped. I inspected the companions of my teammates and asked the HR if he can read and if so, if he could be bothered to read the description of his summoned companion. He could, he did, he changed his companion without a word (forced aggro...).
The best run we had, we did 80-90%, before we whiped bc of the green orbs, after ca. 15-20 minutes. Most of the players had 2.5k+IL, my GF is a tactican with +120% DR.
I go PuG either as a challenge or bc I am to lazy to lfg, but the level of incompetence you find is mind blowing. I dont mind, if ppl dont use the 'best' build for dmg, buff or whatever they want to do, but it seems, that half the population never read the tool tips of their own skills, their summoned companions or bothered to learn any boss mechanics at all.
I think the issue here is, as @thefabricant said, that in most runs there are 1 or 2 well build 3k+ players, who do the job, so many players never bothered to put any effort into minmaxing their own chars. This results in 3k+ GWFs who cry for more dps and do less dmg then a similar geared DC, GFs without ITF, DCs without DG, HG or AA or many other things.
Or asking them to not AFK during the rock phase. Blows my mind every time seeing runs that take down the first phase in seconds and then they AFK and get wiped by rocks.
I have a GWF alt with 3.2k IL. While there are GWFs with similar IL, who deal 1/10th of my dmg, there are others, who deal double the dmg I did in the same run and group, so the difference between a bad and a well played/ build GWF is 1:20, min.
I did a ELOL run with a PUG group today. My CW was the single decent DD and I had to tank, bc the GF did not keep aggro for a second. I soloed one scorpion and the other 4 players had done maybe 20% of the 2nd. We had a HR in our group and I asked him after a few whipes, to use fox shift. After a few times I asked him in german (he was in a german guild) why he did neither answer nor react, still no answer. There are ppl THAT bad and THAT stubborn.
PS. the second HR, who joined after one of our 'DDs' left, asked 'what is fox shift', when I asked him to slot it...
I did told a GWF off when he's asking DC for shields and heals instead of more Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit spams(Righteous DC). That guy went completely silent. My IL remains stagnant for a month now (2.5k). Been buying companions and up-ping my VIP rank. And then there's bonding and weapon enchant upgrade, which is the next step. I haven't touch my artifacts and enchants for quite a while. Probably he switched to his guild channel and never bother to switch again. Or....he doesn't know German but his guild name is German. That would be hilarious if it is. Different language? Understandable if it is. Lost in translation, maybe?
what cryptic was really doing nicely (during the whole history of this game) is setting gs/ilvl margins for PVE.
In mod5 CN required 9800 GS, and I can pretty much assure you that proper party with proper skills and proper coordination was doing that with ease without any exploits.
In mod6 with (almost) 1shotting mobs when people were still using augment pets, 2500 ilvl was just enough to run all dungeons with proper party, with proper skills and proper coordination.
Now with overpowered insignias, bondings, SH boons, etc, with nerfed damage from mobs and bosses, it's even easier to do these dungeons than in mod5. But even without SH boons, insignias, bonsings, etc, it's way easier to do it than it was in mod6.
Advice: gather data about your class and other classes: there's lot of good guides on these forums. Check youtube, check wiki, make a proper build for your GF (it's crucial to understand how you should tank in this game), make your friends whom you run with to do the same. If you pick up people from LFG, make sure that you are at least gathering proper party combination. Communicate with your party to make sure that every member of the party is doing his job. Use voice comm in hard situations to coordinate the party. And you will soon notice how easy PVE is in this game.
As for 4k people, that were with you: actually 4k doesn't guarantee that people know what they are doing. But any 4k dps that knows what he should do can probably solo GWD with ease, as it's still the easiest T2.
Best regards.
Another thing i want to say to these people, dungeons should be doable in many ways, not just one way, you're not going to, every single time, go on youtube and watch a video of how the dungeon has to be done to be successful...
It's like saying, you want to do dps? Then go on youtube and search for the specific build for it... The main issue of this game is that, things can be done ONE way, and no other, you have a GWF and wanna do dps, there is one build for that, you want to successfully finish EGWD, then watch a video on how it is achievable...
How is that enjoyable, you end up with tons of GWF using exact same powers, GF using exact same powers, and all of that, in order to maximize their dps or just be able to finish hard dungeons, i'm sorry , but no, i agree with the post...
I know, that some ppl playing just one character are better, then I am with my 6 chars, but at last I know, how to build and gear them and which powers to use.
Compared to other games this is a joke, difficulty wise, and there are still ppl who cant complete a T1 dungeon without others to carry them.
This 'I want endgame dungeons viable for different ILs, parties and builds' is BS. The dungeon should be a challenge. If it is doable with 3k IL, it is easy with 4k. If it is doable with a rainbow party, it is easy with a minmaxed premade. If it is doable with a sentinel GWF, it is easy with a destroyer SM.
Difficult dungeons should need a specific group (tank, DC, 3 DDs) to complete with all 5 of them knowing what they do. BTW I wrote DC and not OP heal or DC, bc OP heal is inferior in endgame groups to a DC by far. OP tank atm, too, but we will have to wait and see till after the GF 'rework'.
Rank 1
Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
Save up your AD, i think that's very logical isn't it ? You don't need to point that out either...
I'd like to see a full group of 2.5k IL finish EGWD without using tricks and exploits, or specific class combination...
2) What's your point here? Before mod6, NW use to be very complete, content and possibilty of build wise, and dungeons use to be doable with any type of classe combination and powers...
3) GWF doesn't have one viable build in PVE, it does however have one viable DPS build... nuance...
4) Can you comment your linked video, i'm not a big fan of Manga's, and i can't be bothered watching 13min of boringness either
2. Used to. New players don't experience it like you do and play them as-is. So, who's the one complaining?
3. Okay.
4. It's already cut out for you. Nevermind if you're that disinterested in it.
Feat is not just features you can slot in NV, but an english word 'a noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement'. Due to the fact that the power is one of the best features of the HR I called it a feat, not bc it is a heroic feat. You are either looking for things to correct or you are ... .
The fact, that a player asks the HR for the dodge should be enough. Imo a good HR would slot it on his own, if he sees, that the party has no heal, a tank, that cant tank for 1 second and 4 of 5 players (him included) spent most of the time running from spawn to the action or waiting, if the CW can solo the boss.
This is a free world. You can have your opinion, that I have to ask a HR player, to 'plz use the lvl 50 encounter power called fox cunning in range stance for the dodge'. Otherwise the HR has every right to ignore me and it is my fault, that the party whipes time after time.
My opinion is no, or at least, people choosing a DPS path with a DC shouldn't be able to DPS more, or even as much as a DPS class.
No class (except the OP devo) is capable of healing as much as a DC, so why it should be allowed the other way around ?
The other problem is, wich is why i can understand the complaining GWF there, is that if you are in a group with a DC, then you should be healed, because if the DC does not heal you, then no one will, and on top of putting the whole team in serious danger, you might have stole the spot of a TRUE healer character that would have healed you...
Thing is, i have a 3.5 IL DPS DC in my guild, and everytime we do a dungeon (2000+), we always have to make sure we get another healer, cause he won't heal... Not practical at all...
DC players that chose Righteous Path are buff/debuff builds. The only difference is slotting Daunting Light and Chains of Blazing Light in the encounter. Uh.....what? It's tank/heal class, on which Healadins are capable of healing as much as a DC. lol no no no....You can't force someone to assume a role. If you get hit due to reds, you just get bombarded by insults and flames.
And yes, i do know how much buffed you get with 2 or even 3 support classes in a group...
And to assume a role ? You already accept and decide the role you are going to be by choosing your class, that's the whole point of being able to choose either a class that dps, or a class that is made to support a group...
Orcus melee strike hits for 700k, that is not a red zone, and practically undodgeable, every single boss can hit and one shoot you without even using DOTs, sou you're telling me that, you are just supposed to die, whatever you do, just because there is no support class to heal or buff you ? No, i'm sorry, but DC's playing DPS path is fine in big instance like Edemo or Tiamat, but when it comes to a dungeon, specially pick up, then you need ( most of the time) a healer class in order to go forth into that dungeon, otherwise, it's wipe over wipe, until everyone eventually get out of it...
If you end up with 3k IL + players, that's fine, we all know a good GWF can solo pretty much everything, but as you said, if you end up with unaware players, and as a DC, do a DPS job instead of a pure support, then eventually it will be a fail.
So in fact, i'm not blaming players, but more the queue system restrictions, and how little informations we have of the group we queued with...
About Orcus, i disagree, no Heal is capable of healing a flat 700k damages, and average DC's or OP heal don't have the power to buff in order to reduce Orcus hits to not get killed, unless you give a good 30 seconds, for all the buffs to build up...
As i mentioned it in another topic, the issue here is not the difficulty of dungeons, but how many debuffs and buffs you can stack, that can make your group nearly invincible, regardless the IL, a good combination of powers/skills/feats and weapon enchants can down a boss dmg near 0...
No one really plays blind, you don't choose a class for no reason, even if it's just for the design, there is always a reason, and for someone who really does not know the role of each class, it's difficult to take a wild guess for each of them.
Guardian fighter = defender = tank
Devoted Cleric = Support/Religious = heals
Great weapon Fighter = Striker = DPS
So even for someone who would start NW as his/her first MMO, there are tooltips on each class, and your brain for the rest
Rank 1
Range: Fox's Cunning: With the precise timing of the Fox, you and one nearby ally dodge the next incoming attack
Melee: Fox Shift: Dash to nearby targets, reducing their runspeed while increasing your own. Each target can only be hit twice.
Also, it's not a Feat it's a Power. Before you go off ranting about the lack of knowledge of other players, you really should get your facts straight or you can look quite foolish.
Umm... you might want to log in to your HR account & spend a little more time playing it before you offer others advice on the forums. Fox Shift DOES provide a dodge.... for you. Not your party. Just you. & it's a WAY better dodge than the silly shift key gives you. Most often the HR's "dodge" leaves you still sitting in red when the immunity runs out. Not so with Fox Shift. What you want is for ME to use Fox's Cunning to dodge for you. Sheesh. Dodge your own red-hot ball of death, or whatever. Oh, & you might want to go outside the glass house before throwing that stone.
You cant heal one hits and everything else should be instantly refilled by life leech, if you are a 4k+ GWF with boatloads of buffs/ debuffs applied. If you and your group have a certain IL, you dont need a healer, you want a buffer, to be done faster.