The only thing I'm seeing in here that seems different than what we thought previously is in regards to HG.
At one point we had this:
ITF + AS - 101% increase ITF + HG + AS - 246% increase
Now we are seeing only 1% or even none from HG? That is a huge disparity; were either of the tests faulty OR there was a shadow fix to from Cryptic in one of the patches? It's interesting. Does HG buff AS and that is where it's coming from perhaps?
The only thing I'm seeing in here that seems different than what we thought previously is in regards to HG.
At one point we had this:
ITF + AS - 101% increase ITF + HG + AS - 246% increase
Now we are seeing only 1% or even none from HG? That is a huge disparity; were either of the tests faulty OR there was a shadow fix to from Cryptic in one of the patches? It's interesting. Does HG buff AS and that is where it's coming from perhaps?
HG adds to DPS, so if a party is standing on the area affected, they will get a damage boost. That is probably how they tested ITF on HG the first time around. I made sure that the people feeding back their tool tip damage are outside the range of HG, hence the different result.
It's the same mistake people made when they tested VM with ITF. VM will buff up damage already so when you cast ITF you will see your damage increase compared to before you casted VM. The tester ended up interpreting it as a boost in ITF from VM.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
I have just tested this again myself, and I saw a static +35% damage increase from ITF while the GF was standing in Hallowed Ground.
The person checking their tooltip remained outside of Hallowed Ground.
Also note that the person checking their tooltip must be in your party (since ITF only affects party members), and within range of ITF, so the GF cannot stand in the middle of HG with the tooltip checker far outside the edge.
I have just tested this again myself, and I saw a static +35% damage increase from ITF while the GF was standing in Hallowed Ground.
The person checking their tooltip remained outside of Hallowed Ground.
Also note that the person checking their tooltip must be in your party (since ITF only affects party members), and within range of ITF, so the GF cannot stand in the middle of HG with the tooltip checker far outside the edge.
Of course, else there is no buff to test out.
Points of clarifications:
1.)+35% damage increase from ITF you mean compared to ITF with not HG?
2.)Are you sure you are checking only HG? No other effect is in-place? That damage increase sound more reflective of the effect of Astral Shield.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Ok decided test it again just now, my issues with this is that I'm not a fan of testing it on my own tool-tips, the damage and effect of ITF fluctuates so much when on viewed from the GF. (I don't know why, but if you test it out you'll see it for your self, whenever any type of effect is on you, your tool tips numbers will dip and rise like crazy). Unfotunately I don't want to burden my friends with them having to submit screen shots to me. So here goes:
Latest test on myself shows that there is a 23% increase, yes if I check the my own tool tip it would appear that the effect of ITF has increased with HG in effect. I would rather if someone could do replicate the same process but only have the control subject produce the screenshots just to be sure. Anyway here goes:
NO HG NO ITF NO HG WITH ITF HG NO ITF HG WITH ITF RESULT
I don't know why I have a different result from before, but as you can see it's also far from the 35% that was previously reported. Either HG has different effects on ITF from time to time or we're making mistakes testing it out. Either way it's better to get screenshots.
Post edited by oliboyph on
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Thank you for the screen shots. However your final test was a bit wrong. I don't know if you noticed, but Weapons of Light was on the tooltip viewer in the last screenshot... increasing the results by an unknown amount. Also, the final result was HG + ITF, while standing in HG. This is a much larger result than if they were only effected by ITF, while standing outside of HG.
Also note that Inspiring Leader (GF feat) was active in the screen shots which increases the value multiplicatively on top of the ITF bonus.
Here are the actual numbers: equation: [base] * (1 + [damage resist]) * [inspiring leader] * [HG] = [new damage]
base (max) damage: 7197
ITF only: 7197 * (1 + 1.0549) * 1.05 = 15528.57
ITF + HG (should have been. please note that the DR was increased by 0.35) 7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 = 18173.47
ITF + HG while standing in HG 7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 * 1.35 = 24534.18
This leaves an extra ~3k damage increased by the power gained from Weapons of Light, which cannot be determined without knowledge of the tooltip owner's original power value.
I hope this makes it easier to understand the 35% increase. The 35% increase will not show a 35% increase, but a 0.35 additive bonus given to the DR before multiplying. This is a similar gain to how Power works. You can gain 4000 power (10% damage bonus), but your actual damage will not increase by 10% unless you had no power to begin with.
EDIT - actually both tests involving HG had Weapons of Light on the viewer in your screen shots EDIT - oh, and yes, your GF had a DR of around 105.49% ... EDIT - changed "Rousing Speach" to "Inspiring Leader"
Thank you for the screen shots. However your final test was a bit wrong. I don't know if you noticed, but Weapons of Light was on the tooltip viewer in the last screenshot... increasing the results by an unknown amount. Also, the final result was HG + ITF, while standing in HG. This is a much larger result than if they were only effected by ITF, while standing outside of HG.
Also note that Rousing Speach (GF feat) was active in the screen shots which increases the value multiplicatively on top of the ITF bonus.
Here are the actual numbers: equation: [base] * (1 + [damage resist]) * [rousing speach] * [HG] = [new damage]
base (max) damage: 7197
ITF only: 7197 * (1 + 1.0549) * 1.05 = 15528.57
ITF + HG (should have been. please note that the DR was increased by 0.35) 7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 = 18173.47
ITF + HG while standing in HG 7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 * 1.35 = 24534.18
This leaves an extra ~3k damage increased by the power gained from Weapons of Light, which cannot be determined without knowledge of the tooltip owner's original power value.
I hope this makes it easier to understand the 35% increase. The 35% increase will not show a 35% increase, but a 0.35 additive bonus given to the DR before multiplying. This is a similar gain to how Power works. You can gain 4000 power (10% damage bonus), but your actual damage will not increase by 10% unless you had no power to begin with.
EDIT - actually both tests involving HG had Weapons of Light on the viewer in your screen shots EDIT - oh, and yes, your GF had a DR of around 105.49% ...
Ahhh, yes that works. I guess that confirms that HG works but increases DR by 35% of current DR.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Are you sure it's rousing speech, and not inspiring leader? The first is +5% ap gain, while the latter is the +5% boost to ITF. Both are listed on the buff bar, but Inspiring Leader is the green star like thing.
Even now? Right now GF is the most wanted class in every party. because of the things described in this thread. The removal of these effects is not yet on the live server.
We'll just have to pug queue. The queue still requires a tank, and there will be even fewer people to fill the roll after the changes are made and people stop playing GF.
Don't worry, there will still be many people playing the almighty Guardian Fighter after this patch... they just won't be the doom of all dungeons that they are right now.
Also, people will still want the new 36.5% dps buff.... it's still better than another DPS class... although barely.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@darthtzarr, remember that by itself it is better than another dps class, which means that any other effects provided by a GF, are just icing on the cake. This is why even post nerf, GF will still have a place in premade groups as a buffer.
@thefabricant right right. I am just talking about the one buff that everyone knows GFs for. They lost almost all other buffing potential, and would now have to rely on personal stats to achieve increased DPS. These stats are taken up mostly by trying to get ITF to perma status, leaving very little room for personal DPS. Obviously they will still be worthwhile and loved in parties (I am sure of it), but they will be comparable to other classes, and not something that can dwarf adding multiple DPS classes to the party.
The buff itself though gives 36.5% damage, but only as Tactician and only with it on all the time. Most GFs at my item level cannot perma cast ITF, meaning they may or may not be getting enough out of ITF to equal another DPS class.
The point is, the GF won't become "unwanted" unless it isn't needed (eLoL comes to mind), or can be completely replaced by something else that is better (ex. a DPS class that can tank better than them and do more damage, or a different tank with better buffs). And it would have to be considerably better (ITF, Bubble, etc)
Comments
At one point we had this:
ITF + AS - 101% increase
ITF + HG + AS - 246% increase
Now we are seeing only 1% or even none from HG? That is a huge disparity; were either of the tests faulty OR there was a shadow fix to from Cryptic in one of the patches? It's interesting. Does HG buff AS and that is where it's coming from perhaps?
KV for Paranoia... not sure but I would guess yes
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
It's the same mistake people made when they tested VM with ITF. VM will buff up damage already so when you cast ITF you will see your damage increase compared to before you casted VM. The tester ended up interpreting it as a boost in ITF from VM.
The person checking their tooltip remained outside of Hallowed Ground.
Also note that the person checking their tooltip must be in your party (since ITF only affects party members), and within range of ITF, so the GF cannot stand in the middle of HG with the tooltip checker far outside the edge.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Points of clarifications:
1.)+35% damage increase from ITF you mean compared to ITF with not HG?
2.)Are you sure you are checking only HG? No other effect is in-place? That damage increase sound more reflective of the effect of Astral Shield.
Latest test on myself shows that there is a 23% increase, yes if I check the my own tool tip it would appear that the effect of ITF has increased with HG in effect. I would rather if someone could do replicate the same process but only have the control subject produce the screenshots just to be sure. Anyway here goes:
NO HG NO ITF
NO HG WITH ITF
HG NO ITF
HG WITH ITF
RESULT
I don't know why I have a different result from before, but as you can see it's also far from the 35% that was previously reported. Either HG has different effects on ITF from time to time or we're making mistakes testing it out. Either way it's better to get screenshots.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
Also note that Inspiring Leader (GF feat) was active in the screen shots which increases the value multiplicatively on top of the ITF bonus.
Here are the actual numbers:
equation:
[base] * (1 + [damage resist]) * [inspiring leader] * [HG] = [new damage]
base (max) damage:
7197
ITF only:
7197 * (1 + 1.0549) * 1.05 = 15528.57
ITF + HG (should have been. please note that the DR was increased by 0.35)
7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 = 18173.47
ITF + HG while standing in HG
7197 * (1 + 1.4049) * 1.05 * 1.35 = 24534.18
This leaves an extra ~3k damage increased by the power gained from Weapons of Light, which cannot be determined without knowledge of the tooltip owner's original power value.
I hope this makes it easier to understand the 35% increase. The 35% increase will not show a 35% increase, but a 0.35 additive bonus given to the DR before multiplying. This is a similar gain to how Power works. You can gain 4000 power (10% damage bonus), but your actual damage will not increase by 10% unless you had no power to begin with.
EDIT - actually both tests involving HG had Weapons of Light on the viewer in your screen shots
EDIT - oh, and yes, your GF had a DR of around 105.49% ...
EDIT - changed "Rousing Speach" to "Inspiring Leader"
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Also, people will still want the new 36.5% dps buff.... it's still better than another DPS class... although barely.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The buff itself though gives 36.5% damage, but only as Tactician and only with it on all the time. Most GFs at my item level cannot perma cast ITF, meaning they may or may not be getting enough out of ITF to equal another DPS class.
The point is, the GF won't become "unwanted" unless it isn't needed (eLoL comes to mind), or can be completely replaced by something else that is better (ex. a DPS class that can tank better than them and do more damage, or a different tank with better buffs). And it would have to be considerably better (ITF, Bubble, etc)
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John