There is a toxin in this game that leads many players, even some very experienced players, to believe that they are fundamentally better than others, and that certain classes and styles of play are simply disposable and unnecessary. That toxin is SPEED.
I totally agree with your post. Apology for making it shorter. I call this " back to Leeroy Jenkins style ".
Lately it really does not matter if you pug or not, people are in such a hurry lately, to finish everything in the shortest amount of time possible. The content we are faced with, plus stronghold grinds and maybe campg. grind is making people rush. It is logical really. There is so many things you want to do, and doing t2's or t1's for half an hour seems like a waste of time. So , the only thing you can do, as a DC, would be = let them drop dead.... And don't get them up, make them do it by themselves.. Friends, guildies, or a pug group, it does not matter. Make them understand you are not here to slide behind them while they think they can do it all alone and get themselves killed in the process and then rage about it. If they die, well, tough luck. Eventually, people will stop complaining. If however you are doing speed runs, then be prep'd you are in for a run of your life. And that is okay, you are going in that by your own choice. Be it speed dragon runs or speed T2's..etc..
It's my job to keep people from getting killed after all. But after the 3rd time I saw it done -I have a kamikaze SW in my guild who like doing the same thing- I went "fine. Get yourself killed. Your choice". Turned out he doesn't mind if he happens to get killed and it doesn't really endanger the rest of the team. Nobody else cares about speed and they usually stick around the tank and let him/her go first. If that SW dies, it'll be a bit slower killing. No big deal.
Your job is to have fun, while playing a game you love.
We have a few players in our guild as well, who like that kind of play-style. And that is okay. They do not mind dying, and they never ever complain about it. They accept the fact i could not be there to help them stay alive. And respect my attempts to do it, when i do try. Nice folks in my guild , what can i say. I am glad to be in it. I try to make a game of it, if i can keep them alive, as a goal when i am bored to death by running dungeons. It can be fun.
As someone who loves the GWF class I have to agree with what other have said, let the rushers die.
I often tend to top the DPS chart but I know that I cant do that alone. I believe in being a team player and if that means I don't get top DPS well gosh darn it, I guess I'll just have to live with that wont I. I hate the people who run ahead too and mostly I hate them for the same reason the OP listed. Oh you run ahead and get yourself into trouble and I should kill myself trying to help you? Sorry, but that isnt going to happen, I there to finish the dungeon with as few squad wipes as possible. And if that means letting your dumb HAMSTER die....so be it.
As someone who loves the GWF class I have to agree with what other have said, let the rushers die.
I often tend to top the DPS chart but I know that I cant do that alone. I believe in being a team player and if that means I don't get top DPS well gosh darn it, I guess I'll just have to live with that wont I. I hate the people who run ahead too and mostly I hate them for the same reason the OP listed. Oh you run ahead and get yourself into trouble and I should kill myself trying to help you? Sorry, but that isnt going to happen, I there to finish the dungeon with as few squad wipes as possible. And if that means letting your dumb **** die....so be it.
Great attitude! That's my style in a nutshell right there!
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups. Believe it or not, we sit down, look at the map layout for each map and discuss where we can save time. We run through the dungeons over and over again, developing techniques to get the time on the clock for completion as low as possible. Some of the tactics my groups use, I am fairly confident no other groups in this game use at all. Everyone in my groups knows what they are doing when I am organizing a speed run, everyone has a task and sometimes, that task is to wait at objective A while other people go to objective B. Sometimes, to save time, you need to split the party. Its a form of teamwork and there is far more effort and thought going into that kind of teamwork, than into the teamwork required to go slowly.
In a speed run, if a single person dies, you have to start over. That means that you have to develop techniques for doing it as fast as possible and as safely as possible. You have to evaluate the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of every member in the team and adjust accordingly. You can complain all you like about speed, there is more teamwork involved in a proper speed run than in running slowly and it also teaches you so much more about the game, than simply going slowly.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups. Believe it or not, we sit down, look at the map layout for each map and discuss where we can save time. We run through the dungeons over and over again, developing techniques to get the time on the clock for completion as low as possible. Some of the tactics my groups use, I am fairly confident no other groups in this game use at all. Everyone in my groups knows what they are doing when I am organizing a speed run, everyone has a task and sometimes, that task is to wait at objective A while other people go to objective B. Sometimes, to save time, you need to split the party. Its a form of teamwork and there is far more effort and thought going into that kind of teamwork, than into the teamwork required to go slowly.
In a speed run, if a single person dies, you have to start over. That means that you have to develop techniques for doing it as fast as possible and as safely as possible. You have to evaluate the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of every member in the team and adjust accordingly. You can complain all you like about speed, there is more teamwork involved in a proper speed run than in running slowly and it also teaches you so much more about the game, than simply going slowly.
I do not think OP was talking about speed runs that are arranged, with an already set purpose of finishing a run as fast as possible in the least amount of time possible.
The kind of runs you are talking about are difficult for average player and am sure takes tons of careful planning and executing given tasks in the exact time period. That kind of speed runs are more of art then your average " look , there goes gwif again, while we are still killing the first group of mobs " kind of runs. If you know what i mean.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
THAT...was a good one.
Serious You can have awesome teamwork with slower groups and with groups without using broken/op/buggy skills. A good fight with good movement is what i prefare. Not melting bosses cuzz i got a class that is able to do that. Thats not fun. That is just lame. And if i got a group with good playing/moving ppl? Thats fun for me. I dont need any speed kills. If i wanna do speed kills i make my grp with MoF/GF/DC/DC and i change to my SW ( we all know which path ^^). Fun? not at all....
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
Did you even read his post? Or are you just not familiar with the concept of speed runs in general? They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
Did you even read his post? Or are you just not familiar with the concept of speed runs in general? They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
Of course I know what a speed run is. I run at all speeds on most of my characters because I understand game mechanics and know the content. But I dont play the game to break records any longer. I dont find zerging particularly challenging in Neverwinter, Im sorry. I play the game to have fun. And FUN in my vocabulary means no racing to the finish. The OP is not talking about speed runs and record times. He's talking about the attitudes and playstyles of the zerging/elitist mindset.
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... its awfully amusing to me.
See, I prefer to play with those who don't give a HAMSTER about speed runs or self achievements. I know plenty of casuals and hard core players that know the game inside out, whether is build/game mechanics or know the content. Speed is not an indicator alone of talent.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
Did you even read his post? Or are you just not familiar with the concept of speed runs in general? They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
Of course I know what a speed run is. I run at all speeds on most of my characters because I understand game mechanics and know the content. But I dont play the game to break records any longer. I dont find zerging particularly challenging in Neverwinter, Im sorry. I play the game to have fun. And FUN in my vocabulary means no racing to the finish. The OP is not talking about speed runs and record times. He's talking about the attitudes and playstyles of the zerging/elitist mindset.
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... its awfully amusing to me.
See, I prefer to play with those who don't give a **** about speed runs or self achievements. I know plenty of casuals and hard core players that know the game inside out, whether is build/game mechanics or know the content. Speed is not an indicator alone of talent.
No, its not, but implying that you and your guild work together and are better than people who do dedicate their time to perfecting their runs, is just showing that you have the elitist attitude that you are accusing people who do work on running dungeons fast. You think you are better than them because you do NOT run through content quickly, which to you is a sign that you are working well together. This is a fallacy. When I am in a slow group and I try to co-ordinate and I suggest trying other things, like for example, "try using x skill instead of y skill," or, "try fight the boss in that corner instead of this one, " or, "can you try kiting that," people ignore me. However, in good groups, when you suggest trying things, co-coordinating and working together, people listen and stuff goes faster.
Whilst speed alone is not an indicator of talent, taking as long as possible to achieve something, is DEFINITELY not an indicator of talent and you know what, if the group isn't willing to co-ordinate and work together? I will just solo the dungeon, because in those groups, me soloing the dungeon is more efficient than trying to work with people who are unwilling to work as a team.
NWO has this problem that its ruled by the mentality of the lowest common denominator, where everything is expected to be easy, doable on the first try, without learning your class, without learning mechanics, etc. Complaining about people who want to do things as fast as possible, is just another indicator of this. If you are settling for less than your best performance, its speaks more about you than anyone else.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
Did you even read his post? Or are you just not familiar with the concept of speed runs in general? They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
Of course I know what a speed run is. I run at all speeds on most of my characters because I understand game mechanics and know the content. But I dont play the game to break records any longer. I dont find zerging particularly challenging in Neverwinter, Im sorry. I play the game to have fun. And FUN in my vocabulary means no racing to the finish. The OP is not talking about speed runs and record times. He's talking about the attitudes and playstyles of the zerging/elitist mindset.
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... its awfully amusing to me.
See, I prefer to play with those who don't give a **** about speed runs or self achievements. I know plenty of casuals and hard core players that know the game inside out, whether is build/game mechanics or know the content. Speed is not an indicator alone of talent.
No, its not, but implying that you and your guild work together and are better than people who do dedicate their time to perfecting their runs, is just showing that you have the elitist attitude that you are accusing people who do work on running dungeons fast. You think you are better than them because you do NOT run through content quickly, which to you is a sign that you are working well together. This is a fallacy. When I am in a slow group and I try to co-ordinate and I suggest trying other things, like for example, "try using x skill instead of y skill," or, "try fight the boss in that corner instead of this one, " or, "can you try kiting that," people ignore me. However, in good groups, when you suggest trying things, co-coordinating and working together, people listen and stuff goes faster.
Whilst speed alone is not an indicator of talent, taking as long as possible to achieve something, is DEFINITELY not an indicator of talent and you know what, if the group isn't willing to co-ordinate and work together? I will just solo the dungeon, because in those groups, me soloing the dungeon is more efficient than trying to work with people who are unwilling to work as a team.
NWO has this problem that its ruled by the mentality of the lowest common denominator, where everything is expected to be easy, doable on the first try, without learning your class, without learning mechanics, etc. Complaining about people who want to do things as fast as possible, is just another indicator of this. If you are settling for less than your best performance, its speaks more about you than anyone else.
+1, I am also one of the speed runners and i will always try my best to do things as fast as possible. Not only for higher AD/hour, but because of my packed schedule doesn't allow me to slack here and there waiting for other dpser to clear content for me. In fact, as a optimised 2k DC, i outdps most 3k dpser who have low skill and knowledge on their class. If i saw you slacking behind and my dps is higher than you even i am buffing you to a crazy level, i will either initiate a vote kick or leave the party. I had met a few parties with non rusher (high IL guys) that clear KR in 20 min+, why i should stay in that party when i can leave and get a new party and clear it in less than 7 min??
Rushing is good, rushing is life, rushing is NW. Admit this.
Rushing is good, rushing is life, rushing is NW. Admit this.
Rushing should be in NO mmoprg. And rushing is not a piece of a good mmoprg. If you wanna rush, play hackn slay games. NW should be a good RPG with good dungeons. You and your "before i must wait too long, i solo dungeons" friend are not the majority of this game ( fgs ^^). And i wanna see how you and fabri can everything solo to get what you wanna get. Point is: You need a group. Play for the group and play with the group. If you cant good explain and you only can run from trash group to trash group? Build your own friendlist with poeple like you and stay away from the rest. I think thats the best. And one thing for you jazzfong: Show me pics where you out dpsing other players with 1k more GS( DPS classes ofc). If you cant, never happened.
Rushing is good, rushing is life, rushing is NW. Admit this.
Rushing should be in NO mmoprg. And rushing is not a piece of a good mmoprg. If you wanna rush, play hackn slay games. NW should be a good RPG with good dungeons. You and your "before i must wait too long, i solo dungeons" friend are not the majority of this game ( fgs ^^). And i wanna see how you and fabri can everything solo to get what you wanna get. Point is: You need a group. Play for the group and play with the group. If you cant good explain and you only can run from trash group to trash group? Build your own friendlist with poeple like you and stay away from the rest. I think thats the best. And one thing for you jazzfong: Show me pics where you out dpsing other players with 1k more GS( DPS classes ofc). If you cant, never happened.
LoL.... I dont want to turn this into a flame discussion. If u dont mind i had quite a lot screenshots topping in dps chart but i didnt take a pic of teammates gear ( who will do so? ). However i think u will say those guys i won in dps are 1k scrubs since i cant show u their char sheet so just pm me a friend invite in game and we will go some skirmish or dungeon together. Trust me, once u tried what is the ultimate speed run we used to run when we log in everyday, you will be addicted to it. A few hours later i may log in for a while, if you are free we may do a couple speed CN later.
*Shrugs* There is more teamwork involved in my groups in getting dungeons done as fast as possible, than in these slower groups.
As a general statement that's complete fallacy. Teamwork and Speed are not synonymous. Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
Did you even read his post? Or are you just not familiar with the concept of speed runs in general? They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
Of course I know what a speed run is. I run at all speeds on most of my characters because I understand game mechanics and know the content. But I dont play the game to break records any longer. I dont find zerging particularly challenging in Neverwinter, Im sorry. I play the game to have fun. And FUN in my vocabulary means no racing to the finish. The OP is not talking about speed runs and record times. He's talking about the attitudes and playstyles of the zerging/elitist mindset.
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... its awfully amusing to me.
See, I prefer to play with those who don't give a **** about speed runs or self achievements. I know plenty of casuals and hard core players that know the game inside out, whether is build/game mechanics or know the content. Speed is not an indicator alone of talent.
Except your quote was specifically responding to thefrabricant so I took your post in that context and now you want to remove it from that.
Trust me, once u tried what is the ultimate speed run we used to run when we log in everyday, you will be addicted to it. A few hours later i may log in for a while, if you are free we may do a couple speed CN later.
I cant find any fun in speed runs. eTos in 7 min? Orcus down in 5 secounds? I was in theese groups with my gildmembers when we tried to maximize the speed. Fun? Not for me...and since we made theese runs not fun for my giuldemembers anymore too. This is no challenge to maxmimize your speed if the game gives you the choice to make it easy as hell. Sry. I want challenge. I want dungeons where you need movement/skill and not only bugged classes/op buffs debuffs. So trust me. I will never be addicted to speed runs. I cant see any challenge to beat a time in dungeons. A challenge is a boss fight with hard tactic and where everybody must play really good. Atm with all the boons/broken stuff is NW back in kindergarden module 5. Kinda boring, dont ya think?
Teamwork can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups, and sloppy play can be found in "faster" and "slower" groups just as well. "Fast" does not always equate to "smart" and does not guarantee completion. You've have good fortune running your way so that's where you are comfortable. But not everyone sees it your way.
They're not playing the game the same way as the rest of us. They're making deliberate decisions that allow them to complete it faster not just relying on stats and bugs to burn through bosses. Even if all the stuff you're complaining about was removed they'd still be completing dungeons much faster than you do.
This + 1 However as i noticed it, OP was not talking about that kind of runs. Maybe it is my personal view and understanding of his post. But as i understood it, OP was clearly not happy with what some players do, when clearly the run is not a speed run, but in fact a normal speed run, with collecting loot and looking at the stars...
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles.
Pug groups are the best proof for that. And yes i have seen this as well. They go in, they die, they rage and quit group since the other teammates in that group are by their words " useless" .
Whilst speed alone is not an indicator of talent, taking as long as possible to achieve something, is DEFINITELY not an indicator of talent and you know what, if the group isn't willing to co-ordinate and work together? I will just solo the dungeon, because in those groups, me soloing the dungeon is more efficient than trying to work with people who are unwilling to work as a team.
NWO has this problem that its ruled by the mentality of the lowest common denominator, where everything is expected to be easy, doable on the first try, without learning your class, without learning mechanics, etc. Complaining about people who want to do things as fast as possible, is just another indicator of this. If you are settling for less than your best performance, its speaks more about you than anyone else.
You accuse others of being elitists, yet blame everyone who are not high up there for not giving their best, since they are slow? The mentality of the lowest common denominator? Why would you say that.. How many newbies did you run through a freaking dungeon. Do you just leave them to fend for themselves? Teammate mentality, right...
You do realize not everyone are capable of doing what you do, right? There are people who enjoy this game in a slower pace. Deal with it. Not everyone want speed runs. And people refuse them if they are not comfy doing them. Just cos you can solo a dungeon all by yourself, means nothing to a random pug group. And you know what, it is perfectly fine if they are slow.
Some people actually enjoy taking as long as possible to achieve something and that is okay. They are not less valuable cos of it. And it seems you do not share that point of my view. That is freaking sad.
We are not all the same and even with getting better and stronger, some do not share the same goals you might have. Why force them on others without respecting what they want?
If i saw you slacking behind and my dps is higher than you even i am buffing you to a crazy level, i will either initiate a vote kick or leave the party. I had met a few parties with non rusher (high IL guys) that clear KR in 20 min+, why i should stay in that party when i can leave and get a new party and clear it in less than 7 min?? Rushing is good, rushing is life, rushing is NW. Admit this.
Not everyone are like you. If i get you in a pug group, not indicated as a speed run and i am your healer and you do run off and die. I would leave you there, without even looking in your direction. No buffs, no heals and no f**** given.
Run as much as you like, your choice. If you want speed runs, ask for them, np. But if you play with little ones and complain about the speed or dps, then there is really something wrong with you. And you are not a person i would run with in the first place.
No, its not, but implying that you and your guild work together and are better than people who do dedicate their time to perfecting their runs, is just showing that you have the elitist attitude that you are accusing people who do work on running dungeons fast.
You are already on the wrong track, again.
You are comparing your style of running versus another style of running and claiming yourself as the champion.
I am NOT stating either style is better. You are wasting your time arguing that zergers "are better" than those who tend to take their time. I already know the answer. There is PLENTY OF ROOM for playing the game ANY WAY YOU LIKE.
In all 6 games we reside in, we have green to expert level players, tied together by personality, and playstyle choice. We find more satisfaction helping others get efficient at running all levels of the game. That to me actually offers a pretty significant challenge in and of itself. eTos in 7 min? Orcus down in 5 seconds? That simply doesn't DO anything for me, that's not why I play the game.
But yeah, I'm glad you have fun doing your thing. Nothing wrong with it as long as those you play with are also digging it. Im all for that.
But the minute you try to insult a player because he likes to run slower then you and you think that makes you the "better one" I'm going to reality check you. It doesn't matter
Of course I know what a speed run is. I run at all speeds on most of my characters
Let me explain to you what a speedrun actually is. It's beating the game in the shortest amount of time possible by using anything to your advantage, ergo Any% Speedrun implies. This is one of my favorite video-games, Castlevania : Symphony of the Night, done in eight-ish minutes with what I consider to be the best speedrun I've seen yet.
Guys...we all now fabri and his groups. We dont need to talk about them. Do i like the opinion from fabri? Not at all. But he can write wotever he wants. If he have fun running with op grps/broken classes? Its good for him. I dont have any fun at all if i run with our BIS/broken/OP group and make my "job" as a MoF. Fast as hell and also boring as hell. But the game gives you the opportunity to make such speed runs. If someone likes that, than its fine for him. You cant blame players if they wanna speed run dungeons. You have to blame the game and the devs. If we got challenging dungoens, we dont have speed runs. But i cant see any challenging dungeon atm.
Guys...we all now fabri and his groups. We dont need to talk about them. Do i like the opinion from fabri? Not at all. But he can write wotever he wants. If he have fun running with op grps/broken classes? Its good for him. I dont have any fun at all if i run with our BIS/broken/OP group and make my "job" as a MoF. Fast as hell and also boring as hell. But the game gives you the opportunity to make such speed runs. If someone likes that, than its fine for him. You cant blame players if they wanna speed run dungeons. You have to blame the game and the devs. If we got challenging dungoens, we dont have speed runs. But i cant see any challenging dungeon atm.
It is not about the game , or blaming players for wanting speed runs. Speed runs as such are FINE! It is just one of many ways to play this game. One of MANY options of the players, to pick from.
This started to be a whole different ball game. Now It is about people trying to force their play style on others, since they firmly believe their play style is superior to other ways. The game itself can give plenty of opportunities and indeed it is your choice to choose how you want to play it and how fast. But insulting players over something so little is silly. Excuse me for saying it, but it is true.
How can you possibly know the value of any player, by their speed or how fast they do a dungeon?
You can not. I know plenty of BiS players who do not look at others in that way. And it is insulting to them, as well. Indeed they can clear a dungeon in 7 min. But they also take time to do dungeons with players who are slower or weaker then they are. And they move in a pace of their slowest players. And i respect that. That is greatness.
@thefabricant is not only talking about speed, but skill and understanding of the games mechanics. Speed is in his opinion the result of skill, shown in 'his' speed runs.
As he wrote, he runs PuG and tries to help them with advice. This is not a question of superiority, but helping each other out. The problem is, that everyone thinks, that he knows everything and be dammed, if you dare to advice them.
When I played PvP and I told a teammate, that his tactic does not work bc of .... one of 10 players took the advice or even asked for more tips, 7 did not react and 2 did put me on ignore (ca.).
Doing PuG runs I pull what I can handle alone. If I have lags and I die, my problem. But if your group does fail 5-6 times in a boss fight and you 'dare' to suggest another tactic and they kick you because of it, there is no grace in a failed run, if you fail bc your group ignores reason. Keep in mind, that I dont do this 4k rants 'HAMSTER PuGs, do as I say or I quit'. After several failures I said, that this obviously does not work and asked them to try XY, to complete the run.
@thefabricant is not only talking about speed, but skill and understanding of the games mechanics. Speed is in his opinion the result of skill, shown in 'his' speed runs.
We all know wot kinda Grp fabri is joining when he makes his speed runs. If he thinks he needs that much skill in theese groups...ok. And if i understand the posts correct from fabri and jazzfong, they leave groups if they dare to play normal cuzz they dont got the GS/gear/Broken class to make it fast.
This is one of my favorite video-games, Castlevania : Symphony of the Night, done in eight-ish minutes with what I consider to be the best speedrun I've seen yet.
TAS + Memory corruption exploit. Really, dude?
Look up on Etrian Odyssey speedruns or 1-turn kills. That is what NWO's broken classes are facing currently.
This is one of my favorite video-games, Castlevania : Symphony of the Night, done in eight-ish minutes with what I consider to be the best speedrun I've seen yet.
TAS + Memory corruption exploit. Really, dude?
Look up on Etrian Odyssey speedruns or 1-turn kills. That is what NWO's broken classes are facing currently.
If you saw the video itself, person specifically states that this run was not TAS based. That aside, Any% speedrun does allow all sorts of different save/corrupt principles This is evident in many Any% speedruns, such as Minecraft where game's actually closed to desktop and reloaded for the duplication glitch, also seen in the Dark Souls runs in order to glitch and mitigate the falling damage behind the worm at lava gate.
I will look up at what you present, but bare in mind that I wasn't in any way comparing the given speedrun with the NWO to begin with, just threw some useful info and an amazing speedrun Cheers
Edit : Watched what you wanted me to look at and it was quite boring to say the least.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Watched what you wanted me to look at and it was quite boring to say the least.
Of course they were boring to watch (I don't watch NWO plays either and I assumed you prefer real-time action-oriented instead of turn-based) since they are meant to be played to enjoy (I don't want to encourage people to play this and asked them to stay way instead since it has more grind than NWO itself).
Those games can't be patched anyway. Some classes are way much more broken than SW and GF combined together but it doesn't have glitches like previous examples.
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inyawayupdeepMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 206Arc User
I like speedy runs as much as anyone, and prefer them if party makeup allows it. But if you run ahead all the time and don't stop to see that others are ok your begging for your class to be nerfed.
@thefabricant is not only talking about speed, but skill and understanding of the games mechanics. Speed is in his opinion the result of skill, shown in 'his' speed runs.
We all know wot kinda Grp fabri is joining when he makes his speed runs. If he thinks he needs that much skill in theese groups...ok. And if i understand the posts correct from fabri and jazzfong, they leave groups if they dare to play normal cuzz they dont got the GS/gear/Broken class to make it fast.
I guess u misunderstood my stance. I am a 2k DC who usually happily pug everything. If you let a 2k DC carry whole skirmish or dungeon dont you think something is wrong? There is some 3k or near 3k dpser in your party but yet, your dps is still higher than them. If you were me, will you slowly grind for 1 hour and die many times to settle that CN run or just requeue for a better party??
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.
Comments
Lately it really does not matter if you pug or not, people are in such a hurry lately, to finish everything in the shortest amount of time possible.
The content we are faced with, plus stronghold grinds and maybe campg. grind is making people rush.
It is logical really. There is so many things you want to do, and doing t2's or t1's for half an hour seems like a waste of time.
So , the only thing you can do, as a DC, would be =
Friends, guildies, or a pug group, it does not matter. Make them understand you are not here to slide behind them while they think they can do it all alone and get themselves killed in the process and then rage about it.
If they die, well, tough luck. Eventually, people will stop complaining.
If however you are doing speed runs, then be prep'd you are in for a run of your life.
And that is okay, you are going in that by your own choice. Be it speed dragon runs or speed T2's..etc.. Lol'd on this one.
We have a few players in our guild as well, who like that kind of play-style. And that is okay. They do not mind dying, and they never ever complain about it. They accept the fact i could not be there to help them stay alive. And respect my attempts to do it, when i do try. Nice folks in my guild , what can i say.
I often tend to top the DPS chart but I know that I cant do that alone. I believe in being a team player and if that means I don't get top DPS well gosh darn it, I guess I'll just have to live with that wont I. I hate the people who run ahead too and mostly I hate them for the same reason the OP listed. Oh you run ahead and get yourself into trouble and I should kill myself trying to help you? Sorry, but that isnt going to happen, I there to finish the dungeon with as few squad wipes as possible. And if that means letting your dumb HAMSTER die....so be it.
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In a speed run, if a single person dies, you have to start over. That means that you have to develop techniques for doing it as fast as possible and as safely as possible. You have to evaluate the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of every member in the team and adjust accordingly. You can complain all you like about speed, there is more teamwork involved in a proper speed run than in running slowly and it also teaches you so much more about the game, than simply going slowly.
The kind of runs you are talking about are difficult for average player and am sure takes tons of careful planning and executing given tasks in the exact time period.
That kind of speed runs are more of art then your average " look , there goes gwif again, while we are still killing the first group of mobs " kind of runs.
If you know what i mean.
Personally, all that matters to me is that everyone is having fun in my groups. I prefer to have a diverse group of talent in group and show newer folks how to play higher level content. That can be a LOT harder to pull off than if everyone is tricked out to the gills in gear and knows the content inside out.
Once you know the content, and or once you are comfortable running together, completion can happen regardless how fast you run.
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Serious
You can have awesome teamwork with slower groups and with groups without using broken/op/buggy skills. A good fight with good movement is what i prefare. Not melting bosses cuzz i got a class that is able to do that. Thats not fun. That is just lame.
And if i got a group with good playing/moving ppl? Thats fun for me. I dont need any speed kills. If i wanna do speed kills i make my grp with MoF/GF/DC/DC and i change to my SW ( we all know which path ^^). Fun? not at all....
If you really want to get real, Ive seen too many players with tricked out gear and their uber build join a run that has casuals in it and totally BOMB. Either they forget to heal, think they are superman and realize they ARENT getting healed as fast as they expect and get wasted. This type of player plays really sloppy and can barely hold his own because he's used to his normal group performing their set roles. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... its awfully amusing to me.
See, I prefer to play with those who don't give a HAMSTER about speed runs or self achievements. I know plenty of casuals and hard core players that know the game inside out, whether is build/game mechanics or know the content. Speed is not an indicator alone of talent.
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Whilst speed alone is not an indicator of talent, taking as long as possible to achieve something, is DEFINITELY not an indicator of talent and you know what, if the group isn't willing to co-ordinate and work together? I will just solo the dungeon, because in those groups, me soloing the dungeon is more efficient than trying to work with people who are unwilling to work as a team.
NWO has this problem that its ruled by the mentality of the lowest common denominator, where everything is expected to be easy, doable on the first try, without learning your class, without learning mechanics, etc. Complaining about people who want to do things as fast as possible, is just another indicator of this. If you are settling for less than your best performance, its speaks more about you than anyone else.
Rushing is good, rushing is life, rushing is NW. Admit this.
And i wanna see how you and fabri can everything solo to get what you wanna get. Point is:
You need a group. Play for the group and play with the group. If you cant good explain and you only can run from trash group to trash group? Build your own friendlist with poeple like you and stay away from the rest. I think thats the best.
And one thing for you jazzfong:
Show me pics where you out dpsing other players with 1k more GS( DPS classes ofc). If you cant, never happened.
This is no challenge to maxmimize your speed if the game gives you the choice to make it easy as hell. Sry. I want challenge. I want dungeons where you need movement/skill and not only bugged classes/op buffs debuffs.
So trust me. I will never be addicted to speed runs. I cant see any challenge to beat a time in dungeons. A challenge is a boss fight with hard tactic and where everybody must play really good. Atm with all the boons/broken stuff is NW back in kindergarden module 5. Kinda boring, dont ya think?
However as i noticed it, OP was not talking about that kind of runs. Maybe it is my personal view and understanding of his post. But as i understood it, OP was clearly not happy with what some players do, when clearly the run is not a speed run, but in fact a normal speed run, with collecting loot and looking at the stars... Pug groups are the best proof for that. And yes i have seen this as well. They go in, they die, they rage and quit group since the other teammates in that group are by their words " useless" . Agreed. You accuse others of being elitists, yet blame everyone who are not high up there for not giving their best, since they are slow?
The mentality of the lowest common denominator? Why would you say that..
How many newbies did you run through a freaking dungeon. Do you just leave them to fend for themselves?
Teammate mentality, right...
You do realize not everyone are capable of doing what you do, right? There are people who enjoy this game in a slower pace. Deal with it. Not everyone want speed runs. And people refuse them if they are not comfy doing them.
Just cos you can solo a dungeon all by yourself, means nothing to a random pug group. And you know what, it is perfectly fine if they are slow.
Some people actually enjoy taking as long as possible to achieve something and that is okay.
They are not less valuable cos of it. And it seems you do not share that point of my view. That is freaking sad.
We are not all the same and even with getting better and stronger, some do not share the same goals you might have.
Why force them on others without respecting what they want? Not everyone are like you. If i get you in a pug group, not indicated as a speed run and i am your healer and you do run off and die. I would leave you there, without even looking in your direction. No buffs, no heals and no f**** given.
Run as much as you like, your choice. If you want speed runs, ask for them, np.
But if you play with little ones and complain about the speed or dps, then there is really something wrong with you.
And you are not a person i would run with in the first place.
You are comparing your style of running versus another style of running and claiming yourself as the champion.
I am NOT stating either style is better. You are wasting your time arguing that zergers "are better" than those who tend to take their time. I already know the answer. There is PLENTY OF ROOM for playing the game ANY WAY YOU LIKE.
In all 6 games we reside in, we have green to expert level players, tied together by personality, and playstyle choice. We find more satisfaction helping others get efficient at running all levels of the game. That to me actually offers a pretty significant challenge in and of itself. eTos in 7 min? Orcus down in 5 seconds? That simply doesn't DO anything for me, that's not why I play the game.
But yeah, I'm glad you have fun doing your thing. Nothing wrong with it as long as those you play with are also digging it. Im all for that.
But the minute you try to insult a player because he likes to run slower then you and you think that makes you the "better one" I'm going to reality check you. It doesn't matter
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I dont have any fun at all if i run with our BIS/broken/OP group and make my "job" as a MoF. Fast as hell and also boring as hell. But the game gives you the opportunity to make such speed runs. If someone likes that, than its fine for him. You cant blame players if they wanna speed run dungeons. You have to blame the game and the devs. If we got challenging dungoens, we dont have speed runs. But i cant see any challenging dungeon atm.
Speed runs as such are FINE!
It is just one of many ways to play this game. One of MANY options of the players, to pick from.
This started to be a whole different ball game.
Now It is about people trying to force their play style on others, since they firmly believe their play style is superior to other ways.
The game itself can give plenty of opportunities and indeed it is your choice to choose how you want to play it and how fast.
But insulting players over something so little is silly. Excuse me for saying it, but it is true.
How can you possibly know the value of any player, by their speed or how fast they do a dungeon?
You can not. I know plenty of BiS players who do not look at others in that way. And it is insulting to them, as well.
Indeed they can clear a dungeon in 7 min.
But they also take time to do dungeons with players who are slower or weaker then they are.
And they move in a pace of their slowest players. And i respect that. That is greatness.
As he wrote, he runs PuG and tries to help them with advice. This is not a question of superiority, but helping each other out. The problem is, that everyone thinks, that he knows everything and be dammed, if you dare to advice them.
When I played PvP and I told a teammate, that his tactic does not work bc of .... one of 10 players took the advice or even asked for more tips, 7 did not react and 2 did put me on ignore (ca.).
Doing PuG runs I pull what I can handle alone. If I have lags and I die, my problem. But if your group does fail 5-6 times in a boss fight and you 'dare' to suggest another tactic and they kick you because of it, there is no grace in a failed run, if you fail bc your group ignores reason. Keep in mind, that I dont do this 4k rants 'HAMSTER PuGs, do as I say or I quit'. After several failures I said, that this obviously does not work and asked them to try XY, to complete the run.
And if i understand the posts correct from fabri and jazzfong, they leave groups if they dare to play normal cuzz they dont got the GS/gear/Broken class to make it fast.
Look up on Etrian Odyssey speedruns or 1-turn kills. That is what NWO's broken classes are facing currently.
This is evident in many Any% speedruns, such as Minecraft where game's actually closed to desktop and reloaded for the duplication glitch, also seen in the Dark Souls runs in order to glitch and mitigate the falling damage behind the worm at lava gate.
I will look up at what you present, but bare in mind that I wasn't in any way comparing the given speedrun with the NWO to begin with, just threw some useful info and an amazing speedrun
Edit : Watched what you wanted me to look at and it was quite boring to say the least.
Those games can't be patched anyway. Some classes are way much more broken than SW and GF combined together but it doesn't have glitches like previous examples.
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.