Speed Kills

myles08807

I enjoy playing support classes, rather than DPS. My main since open beta and most of my alts are DCs, and I enjoy playing GFs and OPs. We all have our preferences, and I would never (unlike some quite recently) claim to be a better player, to have constructed a better toon, or to be "winning" simply because of my choice of class.

That being said...

There is a toxin in this game that leads many players, even some very experienced players, to believe that they are fundamentally better than others, and that certain classes and styles of play are simply disposable and unnecessary. That toxin is SPEED.

I have leveled three GWFs to 70 and beyond. I understand the mechanics of the class, and now rushing between combats preserves the GWF's unique class feature. I get it. I am sick to death, however, of the twin complaints of the GWF who runs ahead: The rest of us are either (A) too slow, and not keeping up, and thus aren't contributing and not playing our classes correctly, or (B) not helping a teammate in need because the GWF ran into too many challenges and ended up down and dead before we could get there to help. DCs have a slide that slightly improves their speed, and the GF and OP just plod along. There is little I can do to keep up with a GWF runner, and the consequences of sprinting.

This tendency to blow through content at the highest possible speed is endemic and hardly limited to the GWF. When some random CW in a three-toon Tyranny of Dragons campaign quest decides he can solo the content anyway, so why should he wait, then the remaining two toons, my current leveling GF and a player new to the content to whom I was trying to give some pointers, are left out in the cold. (Naturally, words were exchanged and the CW went on at length in PE Zone chat about how much better he was at this game than I.)

I started playing this game with ZERO MMO experience, and not having owned a video game console since the early 1990's. From the start (6/6/13) I saw how speed separated my DC from the sprinting GWFs and tumbling TRs and teleporting CWs. I barely got to a skill node in group content, and often got to the final boss just in time to collect treasure...and got screamed at for not pulling my weight, not knowing how to play my class, and not keeping up.

If I didn't think it would alienate three-quarters of the player base, I would insert "no rushing" into my lfg requests...even when playing a class capable of rushing. For this reason I enjoy my main's guild, which by policy waits for the slowest of us, and I'll always try to help out those who can't keep up with the sprinters.

phoenix1021

Most of these people are just in it for the grind, the AD/hour. Maybe you should just say "no rushing", I don't see why that would alienate anyone but those people you don't wanna play with anyway.

Unknown

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wildfirede

Problem is once a dps hits a certain ilvl they don't need you (or me as a tank) in almost any of the current content.

There are plenty of support classes and builds but there is no content where you are needed.

And if you play healer/tank you only get insults that you are not the optimal build for their dps...

but are they really to blame if content allows to be done wihout that classes for 5 min and with a tank and healer for 8 and there is zero content where class roles besides dps are needed. Even CN a epic tank companion makes both healer and tank more a burden to the group.

Unknown

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urabask

wildfirede said:

Problem is once a dps hits a certain ilvl they don't need you (or me as a tank) in almost any of the current content.



There are plenty of support classes and builds but there is no content where you are needed.



And if you play healer/tank you only get insults that you are not the optimal build for their dps...



but are they really to blame if content allows to be done wihout that classes for 5 min and with a tank and healer for 8 and there is zero content where class roles besides dps are needed. Even CN a epic tank companion makes both healer and tank more a burden to the group.

Pfffffft. GF+DC buffs make the two extra DPS you could get look like a burden, especially if you have SWs. You blink and orcus drops.

hustin1

Just let them run ahead -- if it's like my experience, they'll do it anyway regardless of what you might say during the run. When that happens, I just hang back with the rest of the party and make sure that no one gets left behind -- especially when the person who ran ahead leaves enemies for us to fight along the way. You'll be surprised at how many people are thankful for sticking with them, and that's good karma.

plasticbat

Just like anything else (shopping, biking, walking, ...), go with someone who are moving in the similar speed. I don't PUG unless I am very bored. It is either I catch up or they slow down. I don't mind to stay behind to assist those I need to help for whatever reason. And, my main is a GWF. I usually am the last entering the scene so that I can make sure everybody is ok.

wildfirede

urabask said:

wildfirede said:

Problem is once a dps hits a certain ilvl they don't need you (or me as a tank) in almost any of the current content.



There are plenty of support classes and builds but there is no content where you are needed.



And if you play healer/tank you only get insults that you are not the optimal build for their dps...



but are they really to blame if content allows to be done wihout that classes for 5 min and with a tank and healer for 8 and there is zero content where class roles besides dps are needed. Even CN a epic tank companion makes both healer and tank more a burden to the group.

Pfffffft. GF+DC buffs make the two extra DPS you could get look like a burden, especially if you have SWs. You blink and orcus drops.

That was what i was implying with
"And if you play healer/tank you only get insults that you are not the optimal build for their dps..."

If the GF sticks to his tanking skills and not to ITF and what else or the Cleric sticks to well... healing and not debuffing.


To clarify - i am playing a bulwark paladin - all i bring to the party is my survival, aura of courage and 10-15k Power.
and i feel useless in current gen content with players above 2.5k ilvl in the party.

eion311

You do have certain classes that tend to want to be the first to engage to pump up their numbers. As a tank, if the dps run ahead of me and engage before I get there good luck to you. After a handful of deaths people usually learn or the whining begins. You'll also get the fools that rush ahead and then want KV on as well to help save them. If they don't listen and run ahead of the party, click off KV as they jump into a pack. Sooner or later they will learn, if they don't, they'll leave and hopefully a dps with some intelligence will join the group.

It does help though as a tank class to try to get a mount with the insignia bonus "Gladiator's Guile" (When your Stamina is above 75%, you move 15% faster. When your Stamina is below 25%, gain 15% of your Power as Stamina Gain). It helps to keep us with the group from pack to pack.

thefabricant

eion311 said:

You do have certain classes that tend to want to be the first to engage to pump up their numbers. As a tank, if the dps run ahead of me and engage before I get there good luck to you. After a handful of deaths people usually learn or the whining begins. You'll also get the fools that rush ahead and then want KV on as well to help save them. If they don't listen and run ahead of the party, click off KV as they jump into a pack. Sooner or later they will learn, if they don't, they'll leave and hopefully a dps with some intelligence will join the group.

It does help though as a tank class to try to get a mount with the insignia bonus "Gladiator's Guile" (When your Stamina is above 75%, you move 15% faster. When your Stamina is below 25%, gain 15% of your Power as Stamina Gain). It helps to keep us with the group from pack to pack.

Running ahead isn't always a sign of stupidity or a sign that a group is going to die. Sometimes, in very co-ordinated groups, the dps run ahead for a very good reason.

https://youtu.be/9gYPAdjssfk

Here is a very good example. In order to complete etos as fast as we could, we used a tactic whereby the dps would run ahead and the tank would hold the adds behind us, so we wouldn't have to kill them immediately to open the door and instead could pospone fighting them until the boss fights.

durynte

myles08807 said:

There is little I can do to keep up with a GWF runner.

The Stormraider Clydesdale with certain insignias has a bonus to make characters run pretty fast, movement +4000 and a bonus if full AP or so, can't remember the details. Buuut, elsewhere this is tackled as magenubbie wrote:

magenubbie said:

4 words: Let. Them. Die. Seriously.

It is up to the party to adjust to the speed of others, tank takes precedence, then healer. The DDs are support. That, at least is how I expect a PuG full of good apples to team up. Well, there are bad apples in some baskets. So yes, as magenubbie said, back to start for the run around Sue.

myles08807

Thank you all for your input. Clearly I was not in the best of moods when I started this thread. I've been wanting to make these points for quite a while, though, and I feel better for having gotten 'em out in the open air.

deathbeez

What the others said.
If they have high DPS, they don't need a tank/heals/any sign of team work. If the wallet warriors want to show off, who's to stop them right? Another reason more GF's are moving to a DPS role. Tanking is dying except for pugs and newbies. OPs are going to start sounding like GFs in mod 4.

Also, alot of this stuff is the same content for literally years now. I've already enjoyed the view inside the temple of the spider for ages now. It's an AD grind. The path of lease resistance is going to win.

And if the GWF runs ahead and dies, I'll rez them, they pull that HAMSTER again. I'm leaving them on the floor for the rest of the run.

eion311

thefabricant said:

snip

Yes but there is a big difference between a premade and a pug. When I run with friends its balls out, but in a pug where you get a mixed bag of GS and players who think they are the greatest it's different.
In a pug if the player is geared out, running ahead, destroying everything and surviving more power to him! It's those undergeared players who think they can do that, that is the biggest issue.

nathanmcmsf

It is also annoying on the other end of the spectrum.

I was doing Temple of the Spider (for the Guild Cleric Daily Mission) and I like to fully clear Dungeons to get gear for my Guild Coffer. Anyways, the 2 other player who was in the instant had zoomed past every enemy except the bosses, and then they started to complain about why I was taking so long. I replied saying I am not a boss rusher like they were, and next thing I know, I have been kicked from the instance. What HAMSTER!!!

durynte

I visit Spider Temple frequently, often two times in row. Reason? AD.

I do have the habit of writing a short "Hello" to the PuG and running into combat last, so I can examine how the rest of team is doing. In 19 of 20 visits it will be a non-hi-bye speed run. Occasionsly there are new visitors or some who want to peek every corner and mob and chest. I do take the time and accompany the long way, but I assume most of the other fast AD visitors are tempered differently.

Oh, and on my very first visits I was frowned at for not knowing how to heedy speedy the dungeon and wasting that person's time, too. I just didn't reply since I was sort of busy finding the short path and not getting knocked out by all those left over mobs.

c1k4ml3kc3

I think that you need to learn to play this game a bit better. People are not here to play a dungeon for 40 minutes.
You say that you're a GF, yet slow? I know that pretty much all GF's are using a buff that speeds the entire party up.
it is true what you say that GWF's have a speed advantage over other classes, aside from other things. Unfortunately, they do not use it to pull the mobs, but rather to preserve them for themselves. They used to play nice in MOD3. They were nice and listened to the strategy. Nowadays GWF's are too used to being godlike due to the Lostmauth's set bonus and they are still able to be at top charts most of the time.
You will, however, find that GWFs will die if not supported by a tankier class.

I do not see the reason to bash CW's teleport. In fact, it's one of the worst aspects of being a CW since it's kind of bugged and usually doesn't work properly. The best one in the game is the slide of a DC.

odnnauq

So I am one of those people who rush (because this game has become too grindy and if you want to get your allotted daily AD and can't play 12 hours a day). However, I don't mind or complain if I die. And my main are DC and OP. I would ride my mount (skirmishes) to group up the mobs and keep them at the door till the dps show up and finish the job. And I find that most dps who ran ahead can survive anyway and tend not to complain when killed. And if I am in a mean mood, I may accidentally not see the "help, raise me" message in time. Sounds like you just have bad luck with your pug. Rather than getting annoyed, I would put the player on ignore. That prevents anymore chance future encounters. And no points in having a debate in zone chat or being thin skinned about it. There are many good pugs out there and I say they outnumber the bad ones. And runners are not bad. If they can help you finish the bulk of the boring grind before you can get there, I am thankful. Unless you like the dailies - there are those who love pains ☺ .

Anyway, just my two cents. I like runners but I ignore complaining runners.

sockmunkey

c1k4ml3kc3 said:

You say that you're a GF, yet slow? I know that pretty much all GF's are using a buff that speeds the entire party up.

You are aware, that if you speed up the entire party. Then you really arn't making the GF go any faster relative to the group. In order words, even at a faster pace, the GF will still be slowest.

asterotg

sockmunkey said:

c1k4ml3kc3 said:

You say that you're a GF, yet slow? I know that pretty much all GF's are using a buff that speeds the entire party up.

You are aware, that if you speed up the entire party. Then you really arn't making the GF go any faster relative to the group. In order words, even at a faster pace, the GF will still be slowest.

If the GWF runs ahead, he does not get the ITF buff. I switched from KV to a charge encounter, to tank trash, bc it helps me catch up with the DPS classes.

On a side note. This post is about speed runs and not speed kills. While running T2 etc I share the opinion, that ppl can rush, if they survive it and dont complain, if they die.

TOS on the other hand is nothing but daily AD grind for 95% of the players running it. IMO it is a bad habit, to que it with a 400 IL pray alt, without any gear at all, but the free stuff from the dragon born pack or a few class artifacts. Some ppl dont even 'waste' some R5s on these chars and complain, if, at the end of the run you did 2.1 kk dmg and they had to deal 200k, bc you did not clear all the adds properly. I took the time and inspected the other players running TOS. Maybe one out of 10 is not a lvl 70 char and even most of the lower lvl chars are alts (multiple class artifacts).

greywynd

odnnauq said:

Rather than getting annoyed, I would put the player on ignore. That prevents anymore chance future encounters.

Actually, it doesn't. You can still be queued up with people you have ignored.

solbergx

I really don't care much if they go speed up and kill everything as long as we finish the dungeon!!!

lantern22

Let the rusher's die.

I'll often run ahead if the party is slow on my CW, and if I die, well that's the risk I take by not waiting for the tank.

On my GF when there are only a couple of trash mobs left, I'll get a head start on the GWF's if I can.

There are lots of ppl where a fast run, is a good run.

I'm not a huge fan of ppl taking an overly long time to collect green trash gear or picking everything up for two reasons. 1) it takes time and Im often trying to squeeze 2xSkirms and 2xDungeons into a limited amount of game time and 2) its annoying having a screen full of the roll results. You can get plenty of that stuff doing HE's in your SH. You used to be able to get rid of the roll results by hitting "Esc" now it seems to only clear the first and then it brings up the menu instead of clearing the rest, annoying.

wildfirede

You know you can rearange gui and chat
On the rushing i do it on low instances but kill the mobs that i run into.

lantern22

wildfirede said:

You know you can rearange gui and chat

On the rushing i do it on low instances but kill the mobs that i run into.

You saying I can get rid of the roll results?

Unknown

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lantern22

@wildfirede

thnx for the tip. Couldn't remove it completely but was able to move it off to the side where it is way less annoying!

appreciated, thnx again

aandrethegiant

myles08807 said:

I enjoy playing support classes, rather than DPS. My main since open beta and most of my alts are DCs, and I enjoy playing GFs and OPs. We all have our preferences, and I would never (unlike some quite recently) claim to be a better player, to have constructed a better toon, or to be "winning" simply because of my choice of class.


If I didn't think it would alienate three-quarters of the player base, I would insert "no rushing" into my lfg requests...even when playing a class capable of rushing. For this reason I enjoy my main's guild, which by policy waits for the slowest of us, and I'll always try to help out those who can't keep up with the sprinters.

WELL SAID OP!!!

In our guild we run all our guild runs at the pace of the SLOWEST person in party. It works out great for us, and allows those who don't know the content inside and out, and others who DO know the content well to play together and all become better players and have fun while at it!

c1k4ml3kc3

sockmunkey said:

c1k4ml3kc3 said:

You say that you're a GF, yet slow? I know that pretty much all GF's are using a buff that speeds the entire party up.

You are aware, that if you speed up the entire party. Then you really arn't making the GF go any faster relative to the group. In order words, even at a faster pace, the GF will still be slowest.

You mean, a GF can't speed up another GF who in turn can't speed up the first one? Curious.

ajlir

myles08807 said:

I enjoy playing support classes, rather than DPS.

Pretty much what I'm doing for my GWF. A support offensive buff/debuff DPS with Battle Fury with feat and Daring Shout slotted focusing on recovery for cooldown and AP gain for Slam uptimes. May have to get rid Swordmaster at some point when I'm in higher IL.