TR does not need a nerf. Just a rebalance. In short, getting rid of piercing tenacity-bypassing mechanics and move the damage to other powers. Trs now are not the most problematic class.
BiS TRs/ ones from top PvP guilds do not use the 1-shotting SE build, their SE hits for an average 40-50-60k. The one-shotting troll builds are seen pretty much only in PUG PvP, since they are, well, just troll builds.
On the other side, i agree 100% with pretty much everything Macjae wrote.
A GF burst is far more dangerous than a TR's right now, and OPs are probably the only class that is really above all the others, when properly built.
I think balance is near. The devs just need to get rid of "extremes" and normalize classes more buffing other, more balanced aspects. Examples:
- Fix SE, buff other TR encounters and feats - Decrease GF burst, increase their tanking efficiency/ survivability and ability to protect - decrease trapper amount of CC/root (no permaroot), buff their survivability tools - decrease fully buffed GWFs damage, increase base damage a bit to normalize/ reduce the gap between unbuffed and fully buffed GWF, while reducing the max damage they deal when fully buffed, and buff a bit their survivability tools to compensate the loss of Unstoppable temp HPs and lifesteal, also normalizing their survivability out of the T.Fey-T.Neg combo.
And so on. Less extremes but more normalized abilities, along with a rebalance of non-META paths for more choice.
Devs should also decrease the amount of PvP self-heal, and go back to what we got when tenacity was first introduced, with players dying, but not too fast, giving some room for fights. Right now, instead, we have either one-shotting/ one-rotating kills or immortality.
but, but ... this is a TR nerf thread, don't steal the aggro !
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
edited December 2015
Wait @rardan, in the other thread it's a video of gwf's killing everybody--I thought they were the boogeymen? Why is this gf killing all those poor TRs?? Is this "serious" BIS pre-made PVP at its finest--PUGs should not respond? : Perhaps some cheap video of a TR 1-shotting people over and over with cheesy music cannot be made.... :=)
My suggestion is simple: remove 100% auto crit from stealth - would solve the whole problem in my opinion!
Why does this class get everything for free without investing in it??? 25% more Deflect severity - 100% auto crit chance ...
If 100% auto crit stays they deserve to have 25% LESS deflect severity resulting in 25% base severity, seems only fair to me! No trade-off = no balance.
for the same reason some classes dont have depletion on their tab, get power from recovery, defense and armor pen on top of a 200-300% (i lost count) bonus damage while being fast as an apple user when they release a new phone? just guessing tho
for the same reason some classes dont have depletion on their tab, get power from recovery, defense and armor pen on top of a 200-300% (i lost count) bonus damage while being fast as an apple user when they release a new phone? just guessing tho
You can always build GWF without Toughness, Disciple of Strength, Armor Specialization, Steely defense, Constitution Focus, Disciple of War, Focused Destroyer, Destroyer's purpose (Class mechanics), T. Feytouched and Lostmauth set (game mechanics), go into PvP and show us how well do you performs. n_n
maybe 1 year ago, sadly i dont have much time or ads (the main prob) for another class
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Usual pvp thead sidekick tactic:Someone is complaining about one class.People play that class.They derail the thread by posting unsupported claims.Their buddies come and together try to appease as "many".
mcjae the CW/Sw ,pando the GWf ,rayrdan the Tr/HR.Currently the most unbalanced classes.yet they cry.And what they say?
That SE is ok,because it is equal to 3 (three-drei-trio-tria-trei-tre) encountes of another class. that class the Gf,not only has to time the encounters right ,has to find any stupid enough toon to stay in place in order to get hit.Also Gf is the slowest clas b y default. Not only that:the forementioned combo lacks mobility to the extreme.The Gf that will use that rotaion is powerfull vs melees but hopeless vs any semi adequate ranged toon.How people manage to lose by said Gfs in one vs one..But what to say..These people have 95k disintegrates every 6 secs,ignore 66% of tenacity,90srange,separate 80% DR layer and still complaint..pffff.
GF does not has Road runner sprint like a bugged 220k at wills class(sure strike)-that adds stacks per infitum, nor the -GMC inspired- dodges that provide DAMAGE IMMUNITY. And since GMC left,your protector maybe the melee community can finally push for the removal and adjustment of your OP shield ,your ignorance of 66% of tenacity and your immunity dodges.Why not?
To the essense and to the OP:dear freind why you came here?This server is the land of CWs who will cry and whine all day.Stay in your server i think it is better there.:)
To the colonel Wing:I salute a stern GF defender! :)I hope many of us will stay and some will return like Embrace my Sword.
We must stay ever vigilant the evils-devils that are named CWs never ever stop making conspiracies in their accused-accursed Library.
And to the message to the CW/TR/HR ,Gf haters:YOU WILL NEVER NERF US:)
Adios amigos and merry christmas!! (even to evil CWs)
Looks like another thread where players complain about TR's OverPower. And Tr's try assure that they are not OP. By TR logic is 95% of fights TR win or game is broken..... Someone claim that when player have 30k power he is beast.. Tsk. check picture.. TR who without fight have 35k power.. once start hitting. He boost up to stats like in this picture....
on topic.. Some players claim that other toons can dodge SE. yea sure.. U notice SE when U are already dead..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Looks like another thread where players complain about TR's OverPower. And Tr's try assure that they are not OP. By TR logic is 95% of fights TR win or game is broken..... Someone claim that when player have 30k power he is beast.. Tsk. check picture.. TR who without fight have 35k power.. once start hitting. He boost up to stats like in this picture....
thanks for your pve reportage of any class with bondings cheese and whirling of blade on 5 targets....really useful on the pvp matter.
As I remember 30k power in pve = 30k power in pvp.. ArP goes same.. Its not like in pvp your stats gets decreased... So if I hit u with such force would u stay alive? lets say even 40k powa.? Would u stay alive? with such powa from perm stealth I would HAMSTER anyone just with att wills. And latter in forum claim that TR opines is myth...
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
To the colonel Wing:I salute a stern GF defender! :)I hope many of us will stay and some will return like Embrace my Sword.
We must stay ever vigilant the evils-devils that are named CWs never ever stop making conspiracies in their accused-accursed Library.
And to the message to the CW/TR/HR ,Gf haters:YOU WILL NEVER NERF US:)
Adios amigos and merry christmas!! (even to evil CWs)
Embracemysword is actually my cousin. He quit because Cryptic did not bother to punish the many AD exploiters, which forced him to spend thousands of dollars/Euros, just to be on par with people who never spent a single cent on NW, people who stored massive amounts of AD on mule accounts, people who controlled and ruined the entire economy... and moved on to play WoW again. I gave all of my enchantments (just r8, some r9, and two perfects, nothing special) etc. to a friend and quit, too. However, i recently started playing again, but i am not taking it as serious as i used to.
And you are right. The GF community is a minority. I can not refer to the bandwagon hoppers that are slapping their ill gotten - TR/OP/GWF enchantments onto GF toons, who recently started playing as GFs as GF community members, such as myself or my cousin who quit. We never played any other class than GF, except to get GWF class artifacts. We never exploited a single bug/glitch, yet all we are getting is hate and ridicule. I played the GF class when it was weak, i played it when it was semi decent, i played it when it got buffed and i believe i know what i am doing and i am pretty good at it.
But anyways, it's nice to know that in a community that mainly consists of squeakers and exploiters who always twist your words around and also always claim to know anything about everything (high ilvl newbies), still some less biased people can be found.
I can only hope that in the future sir, that you refrain from calling other people "ignorant", we may not be as high item level as you, but we are trying our best to learn this game too.
The description of someone as "ignorant" isn't inherently derogatory, it's simply a statement of someone lacking sufficient knowledge of a subject, which precludes making a qualified statement of any depth.
For example, I am not a chess player, and while I know the basic rules of the game, I am simply ignorant of chess particulars like opening theory or late-game theory. I can enter a game of chess and know how to move the pieces around, but I am not really qualified to make statements about the particulars of the game. The same is true here -- a lot of players can enter PvP in NW, but that does not make them qualified to analyze balance concerns, because they lack a sufficient knowledge base. That does not mean their experience is invalid -- the point that more experienced players has an easier time dealing with one class, while another class gets vastly more powerful in the hands of someone with more knowledge should also impact how class balance is shaped.
This isn't starcraft code S or dota2 ProLeague, we really don't have any tournaments or regular arranged teams vs other teams to claim any of this.
No, we don't; the closest was the NCL event this previous summer, which saw a reasonably high level of participation. I placed decently in that myself (but less so than I would have liked due to some last-minute games). Apart from that, there is still somewhat of a PvP community where people retain at least informal notions of other players' strength.
Took me a while because I was busy. This will probably be my last post on this matter because of the holidays. Anyway I pulled some data off the leader board. Hopefully this will help.
So i decided that the best way to see if where certain classes are in terms of their strength and killing potential is to get their kills vs death and kills vs recorded encounters ( this being the kill vs kills + death). This pretty much gives us a sense of just what is really going on. Please see below report:
Details (I pulled top 10 per class in terms of kills, or all players in a class included in the first 5 pages of the leader board arrange by total kills.) :
If I did anything wrong please feel free to say so. Hopefully we can start looking at this in a factual approach rather than using bare opinions. Again it is not right to call people in the forums ignorant, i didn't say it was derogatory, I said it wasn't right. We are here in the forums aren't we? We are here to try to learn as much as we can, so calling us ignorant just isn't right. Again we all know our matchmaking isn't quite right here, and as I said we do not have real teams here, we just pick up who ever we can in premade, it's not the same players that have played with each other hundreds of times playing against team with the same level of team experience so no, what you mentioned can not count when it comes to claiming that his game has a metagame, we are just not there yet.
^^ Hey! I am also an old Gf player ,but i don't pvp anymore since mid mod5 and the broken Tr gameplay.Plus the gear gap got out of hand. Having said that,i just do pve now with moderate success.:P
If you need ever a party to run pve content or whatever,send me a pm in game ,my handle is Nyriel@hypervoreian.I am a member of a channell that does pve content pretty well,i know the owner and she will hear me if a new member would like to join
C U in game ,good adventuring and good loot,fellow Guardian!
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
that our GFs are far better than those GFs on your server, because on our server (dragon), when a GF reachs certain numbers, they can one-rotate all other classes (which is 'Secure' vs SW and GWF classes due the lack of dodges on both classes) and trust me, any class with over 30k on Power (either 'effective' or 'real') is a beast.
Comments
Trs now are not the most problematic class.
BiS TRs/ ones from top PvP guilds do not use the 1-shotting SE build, their SE hits for an average 40-50-60k. The one-shotting troll builds are seen pretty much only in PUG PvP, since they are, well, just troll builds.
On the other side, i agree 100% with pretty much everything Macjae wrote.
A GF burst is far more dangerous than a TR's right now, and OPs are probably the only class that is really above all the others, when properly built.
I think balance is near. The devs just need to get rid of "extremes" and normalize classes more buffing other, more balanced aspects.
Examples:
- Fix SE, buff other TR encounters and feats
- Decrease GF burst, increase their tanking efficiency/ survivability and ability to protect
- decrease trapper amount of CC/root (no permaroot), buff their survivability tools
- decrease fully buffed GWFs damage, increase base damage a bit to normalize/ reduce the gap between unbuffed and fully buffed GWF, while reducing the max damage they deal when fully buffed, and buff a bit their survivability tools to compensate the loss of Unstoppable temp HPs and lifesteal, also normalizing their survivability out of the T.Fey-T.Neg combo.
And so on. Less extremes but more normalized abilities, along with a rebalance of non-META paths for more choice.
Devs should also decrease the amount of PvP self-heal, and go back to what we got when tenacity was first introduced, with players dying, but not too fast, giving some room for fights.
Right now, instead, we have either one-shotting/ one-rotating kills or immortality.
Lololol at deserved gwf buff.
LoL.
:
Perhaps some cheap video of a TR 1-shotting people over and over with cheesy music cannot be made....
:=)
I get so confused.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
https://youtu.be/56fWBZyTwkQ
The dude is now GF.
Moral of the story gentlemen: plenty of stuff to fix.
just guessing tho
mcjae the CW/Sw ,pando the GWf ,rayrdan the Tr/HR.Currently the most unbalanced classes.yet they cry.And what they say?
That SE is ok,because it is equal to 3 (three-drei-trio-tria-trei-tre) encountes of another class.
that class the Gf,not only has to time the encounters right ,has to find any stupid enough toon to stay in place in order to get hit.Also Gf is the slowest clas b y default.
Not only that:the forementioned combo lacks mobility to the extreme.The Gf that will use that rotaion is powerfull vs melees but hopeless vs any semi adequate ranged toon.How people manage to lose by said Gfs in one vs one..But what to say..These people have 95k disintegrates every 6 secs,ignore 66% of tenacity,90srange,separate 80% DR layer and still complaint..pffff.
GF does not has Road runner sprint like a bugged 220k at wills class(sure strike)-that adds stacks per infitum, nor the -GMC inspired- dodges that provide DAMAGE IMMUNITY.
And since GMC left,your protector maybe the melee community can finally push for the removal and adjustment of your OP shield ,your ignorance of 66% of tenacity and your immunity dodges.Why not?
To the essense and to the OP:dear freind why you came here?This server is the land of CWs who will cry and whine all day.Stay in your server i think it is better there.:)
To the colonel Wing:I salute a stern GF defender! :)I hope many of us will stay and some will return like Embrace my Sword.
We must stay ever vigilant the evils-devils that are named CWs never ever stop making conspiracies in their accused-accursed Library.
And to the message to the CW/TR/HR ,Gf haters:YOU WILL NEVER NERF US:)
Adios amigos and merry christmas!! (even to evil CWs)
Someone claim that when player have 30k power he is beast.. Tsk. check picture.. TR who without fight have 35k power.. once start hitting. He boost up to stats like in this picture....
on topic..
Some players claim that other toons can dodge SE. yea sure.. U notice SE when U are already dead..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
So if I hit u with such force would u stay alive? lets say even 40k powa.? Would u stay alive? with such powa from perm stealth I would HAMSTER anyone just with att wills. And latter in forum claim that TR opines is myth...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
And you are right. The GF community is a minority. I can not refer to the bandwagon hoppers that are slapping their ill gotten - TR/OP/GWF enchantments onto GF toons, who recently started playing as GFs as GF community members, such as myself or my cousin who quit. We never played any other class than GF, except to get GWF class artifacts. We never exploited a single bug/glitch, yet all we are getting is hate and ridicule. I played the GF class when it was weak, i played it when it was semi decent, i played it when it got buffed and i believe i know what i am doing and i am pretty good at it.
But anyways, it's nice to know that in a community that mainly consists of squeakers and exploiters who always twist your words around and also always claim to know anything about everything (high ilvl newbies), still some less biased people can be found.
So i decided that the best way to see if where certain classes are in terms of their strength and killing potential is to get their kills vs death and kills vs recorded encounters ( this being the kill vs kills + death). This pretty much gives us a sense of just what is really going on. Please see below report:
Details (I pulled top 10 per class in terms of kills, or all players in a class included in the first 5 pages of the leader board arrange by total kills.) :
If I did anything wrong please feel free to say so. Hopefully we can start looking at this in a factual approach rather than using bare opinions. Again it is not right to call people in the forums ignorant, i didn't say it was derogatory, I said it wasn't right. We are here in the forums aren't we? We are here to try to learn as much as we can, so calling us ignorant just isn't right. Again we all know our matchmaking isn't quite right here, and as I said we do not have real teams here, we just pick up who ever we can in premade, it's not the same players that have played with each other hundreds of times playing against team with the same level of team experience so no, what you mentioned can not count when it comes to claiming that his game has a metagame, we are just not there yet. Again i apologized because I mispoke, I meant that non-conqueror build is utility not GF as a class.
Hey!
I am also an old Gf player ,but i don't pvp anymore since mid mod5 and the broken Tr gameplay.Plus the gear gap got out of hand.
Having said that,i just do pve now with moderate success.:P
If you need ever a party to run pve content or whatever,send me a pm in game ,my handle is Nyriel@hypervoreian.I am a member of a channell that does pve content pretty well,i know the owner and she will hear me if a new member would like to join
C U in game ,good adventuring and good loot,fellow Guardian!