Balancing TR's daily skill [Shocking execution]

dolrey

Hello. I would like to tell you about TR's daily skill [Shocking execution]. A bit time earlier I've listened feedback of other guardian fighters that this skill according to other TR's increasing damage abilities is too strong. That GFs complained that TRs just one hit them using [Shocking execution]. In the first time I didn't believe that. I've thought that maybe that's because of that those GF's were weak. BUT today my GF was one hitted by TR on 153000 DAMAGE!!!

Just look at screenshot (sorry for russian language) :
55% defence.
160000 HP
44% additional defence in PvP
68% resistance to piercing damage in PvP
Also I have stone of negation (12 LVL) +30% additional defence
In that moment ring of siege was active (name may be not correct). +30% additional defence.
Just look at these defence stats. They are so hight. But I still was one hitted!!!

So, damage of TR's daily skill [Shocking execution] needs in balancing. Because even so heavy tanks are defenceless in front of it.

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Added 25 Dec 2015:

My GF hadn't taken as much damage even from top dd GFs from our server. Even from all their skills I can't be killed. That's because I have enough defense and health to survive. But the other dd classes have much lower defense and health (they changed their survivability to increase dealing damage but I didn't). Thats why they are dead from ITF+bull+anvil.

BUT for TR's SE it doesn't metter who are you: armored tank or thin dd class. Thats what I am talking about. Thats why it needs to be balanced.

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Added 07 January 2016:

Just have a look at it:

180K UNRESISTABLE INCOMING DAMAGE!! Am I tank or not? Isn't it overpower? Just one button from invisibility and every your opponent is dead. It is really needs in balance.
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Added 16 January 2016:

NOWONE has 200k health to survive. Siriously, balance it please. It is just ONE BUTTON AND 200K UNRESISTABLE DAMAGE!!

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Added 22 January 2016:

So, if it is hard to balance [Shocking execution] then it will be good even if to make it to DON'T ignore tenacity.

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bitt3rnightmar3

One shots happen in PVE if the player isn't careful- Especially since tanks don't have a dodge. I've seen tanky GFs go from 100% to dead because a small monster made him drop his shield by hitting him from behind. I don't see why this would be any different in PVP. VS a GF a TR has no other option but to attack you from behind and kill you as quickly as possible since your shield/prone/dash will surely quickly end his life with little recourse from the TR or ability to get away. It's the nature of the beast, right? Kill or be killed. If anything I'd be asking for a buff for GFs defense instead of a Nerf for TR damage considering the state of it in PVE right now.

My two cent. Sounds like whomever killed you knew his or her opponents weakness and went for it.

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xgrandz02

magenubbie said:

dolrey said:

And it is awful to lose all heals from one hit.

Absolutely. Such is the nature of the TR. Kill or be killed. The TR has very little defense against your perma-prone/daze chains. I can assure your from personal experience that being killed by a prone/stun chain is much more frustrating than getting killed by damage.

Seems you have no clue about TR, they have the highest survival abilitys!
they are currently bugged especially SE / it's OverCrowded

TR's Piercing dmg Ignore all DR and tenacity basically any kind of defence,
a normal SE it hitting for 80-100k dmg / with overcrit 130k+ to endless
TR have dodge/stealth/CC+dmg immunity/high mobility/tones of interrupt skills.
and just for entering stealth +100% crit for FREE and many more..

But I already talked anough about SE on other threads,
im tired of it (Cuz to 1-Shot peoples seems fun for the devs)

well my last words is: "january 15,


ps. @dolrey a tip for you don't take it serious & don't waste your time on forum.

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pando83

I think, as i said multiple times, that damage needs to be normalized. SE is just another thing that needs to be normalized.
It's the same as GWF fully stacked damage. GWFs go from pitiful base damage to monster. From one extreme to the other.
TRs go from mediocre damage from at-wills and encounters, to 150k piercing damage in one it on an armored tank. The game allows for such 1-shotting "troll" builds.

Until damage and healing are normalized in PvP, my suggestion is to go for HP pool rather than defense. Explanation: right now, players stack insane ArP amounts. I've seen 18k+. Which means they can probably cap 80% DRIgnored and just get through all the enemy's DR, leaving you with tenacity alone. And there's piercing damage around (TR, GF/GWF mark and stuff) which goes right through it. It's easier for your defense to just get bypassed, one way or the other. I mean, you still must have damage resistance, but it comes mainly from tenacity and may be negation, i wouldn't focus on defense.
HPs, instead, cannot be bypassed. In a sense, a 10% increase in HP pool is an "absolute" defense. From any kind of damage.

Then get a mythic wheel and you're good to go.

rinat114

LOL, I'm most def not going to defend SE, but Bull+ITF+Anvil = goodbye combo is ok? You can argue about IBS the same way (although let's be honest, landing an IBS on an extremely good player is supremely difficult, they must be prone/cc'd first, while bullrush is really easy to land in comparison). Yes, SE is the 'I Win' button for the TR, yes, SW's and GWF's can't dodge it, yes it's piercing damage and no matter how much tenacity/defense you have, you're screwed, yes it needs a fix, but coming from a GF and their current state, I just can't stomach that.

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colonelwing

rinat114 said:

LOL, I'm most def not going to defend SE, but Bull+ITF+Anvil = goodbye combo is ok? You can argue about IBS the same way (although let's be honest, landing an IBS on an extremely good player is supremely difficult, they must be prone/cc'd first, while bullrush is really easy to land in comparison). Yes, SE is the 'I Win' button for the TR, yes, SW's and GWF's can't dodge it, yes it's piercing damage and no matter how much tenacity/defense you have, you're screwed, yes it needs a fix, but coming from a GF and their current state, I just can't stomach that.

As you've already mentioned it is a COMBO, rather than just having to press a single button if one's AP is full. Considered that a GF is nowhere close of being as tanky as a TR (Rogues aren't supposed to be tanky, at all) and would not be able to kill a thing without having a high burst damage. What would a GF's role in PvP exactly be? Cannon fodder for the other classes? Playing sitting duck for 2-3 seconds before getting eradicated? Tank is not an option, because a GF's shield drops almost instantly. Party buffer? A party buffer that dies within 2 seconds is not a good idea either. In all honesty, damage is all a GF has to offer, nerf it and the class is pretty much useless / unplayable. > In other words, think about every possible scenario before you post something... or don't post, at all.


Seeya.

rinat114

colonelwing said:

rinat114 said:

LOL, I'm most def not going to defend SE, but Bull+ITF+Anvil = goodbye combo is ok? You can argue about IBS the same way (although let's be honest, landing an IBS on an extremely good player is supremely difficult, they must be prone/cc'd first, while bullrush is really easy to land in comparison). Yes, SE is the 'I Win' button for the TR, yes, SW's and GWF's can't dodge it, yes it's piercing damage and no matter how much tenacity/defense you have, you're screwed, yes it needs a fix, but coming from a GF and their current state, I just can't stomach that.

As you've already mentioned it is a COMBO, rather than just having to press a single button if one's AP is full. Considered that a GF is nowhere close of being as tanky as a TR (Rogues aren't supposed to be tanky, at all) and would not be able to kill a thing without having a high burst damage. What would a GF's role in PvP exactly be? Cannon fodder for the other classes? Playing sitting duck for 2-3 seconds before getting eradicated? Tank is not an option, because a GF's shield drops almost instantly. Party buffer? A party buffer that dies within 2 seconds is not a good idea either. In all honesty, damage is all a GF has to offer, nerf it and the class is pretty much useless / unplayable. > In other words, think about every possible scenario before you post something... or don't post, at all.


Seeya.

Ha, when's the last time you got one-shot by Bullrush alone? Hint - I was, I'm BIS, I know what I'm doing and I'm proud of my results. GF damage is out of control, they were tough to deal with before the damage increase across the board (prior to mod 6), but right now, a BIS GF is way worse than a BIS TR. I don't think we're playing the same game. GF's one shotting people (and this is not a conversation about casual PVP practice, I'm talking about high-end league and fully geared) is common practice, spamming Fighter's Recovery and pretty much never dying. Also ROOOOOOOFL about shield dropping instantly, a properly built GF can hold up their shield for MINUTES, assuming there are no Stamina drains abused. I don't think you have ANY idea what you're talking about. Check the leaderboard in kills/wins, dare come back to me claiming GF's suck and don't need a balance. GF's are primary tanks, secondary DD's, somehow the DD won over and is getting ridiculous.

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oliboyph

dolrey said:

Hello. I would like to tell you about TR's daily skill [Shocking execution]. A bit time earlier I've listened feedback of other guardian fighters that this skill according to other TR's increasing damage abilities is too strong. That GFs complained that TRs just one hit them using [Shocking execution]. In the first time I didn't believe that. I've thought that maybe that's because of that those GF's were weak. BUT today my GF was one hitted by TR on 153000 DAMAGE!!!

Just look at screenshot (sorry for russian language) :
55% defence.
160000 HP
44% additional defence in PvP
68% resistance to piercing damage in PvP
Also I have stone of negation (12 LVL) +30% additional defence
In that moment ring of siege was active (name may be not correct). +30% additional defence.
Just look at these defence stats. They are so hight. But I still was one hitted!!!

So, damage of TR's daily skill [Shocking execution] needs in balancing. Because even so heavy tanks are defenceless in front of it.

Hi basically I'm a GF too, and from what I have been reading looks like I have the same build as you do. Though probably better geared since my DR is at 65% visible. Anyway we just have to accept that what we have are playing is a utility class, we're not expected to really beat anyone in pvp one on one and if we get caught with the right skill at the right time we will get one shot. On the other hand, we really boost everyone around us, DC's and OP's get one shot by TR's when we unleash a well timed ITF + Bull Charge. We chose to play a support class, so you can't really expect to stand up against other classes that are clearly built to kill.

pando83

oliboyph said:

Hi basically I'm a GF too, and from what I have been reading looks like I have the same build as you do. Though probably better geared since my DR is at 65% visible. Anyway we just have to accept that what we have are playing is a utility class, we're not expected to really beat anyone in pvp one on one and if we get caught with the right skill at the right time we will get one shot. On the other hand, we really boost everyone around us, DC's and OP's get one shot by TR's when we unleash a well timed ITF + Bull Charge. We chose to play a support class, so you can't really expect to stand up against other classes that are clearly built to kill.

Tell me you're being sarcastic.
Current PvP GF is not supposed to beat anyone 1v1 and is utility only? "Other classes that are built to kill"?

Macjae explained flawlessly how things are...

rayrdan

i wont stop saying you can do whatever you want to shocking in exchange of a 30% damage boost on all the rest except for shadowy opportunity for reasons.

oliboyph

pando83 said:

oliboyph said:

Hi basically I'm a GF too, and from what I have been reading looks like I have the same build as you do. Though probably better geared since my DR is at 65% visible. Anyway we just have to accept that what we have are playing is a utility class, we're not expected to really beat anyone in pvp one on one and if we get caught with the right skill at the right time we will get one shot. On the other hand, we really boost everyone around us, DC's and OP's get one shot by TR's when we unleash a well timed ITF + Bull Charge. We chose to play a support class, so you can't really expect to stand up against other classes that are clearly built to kill.

Tell me you're being sarcastic.
Current PvP GF is not supposed to beat anyone 1v1 and is utility only? "Other classes that are built to kill"?

Macjae explained flawlessly how things are...

I guess i mispoke here, i mean support build. Obviously we did not go conqueror.

Anyway mentioning that gf has high kills has to do with anvil which is the perfct finishing skill. But even conquerors will need help to get opponent to that level of hp that we can funish then off, 1 on 1 is still extremely hard. Against an average player with equal ilv gfs will have a terrible time 1 on 1 which is not a bad thing since there is no 1 on 1 pvp event.

I don't understand what you are compaining about, overall concensus no matter what thread is that gf are average strength in pvp as compared to trs that seem to have the status of being kings of pvp.

colonelwing

macjae said:

-snip the usual Potato bla bla-

And a TR isn't able to spam a DAILY as if it is an encounter? Stop being such a hypocrite. A TR can tank an entire party without taking any damage, while being able to build enough AP to use SE (A daily) within a second. A GF has to actually face the attackers in order to block incoming damage. As long as your IQ is above 80 you will realize that all you have to do is, to attack the GF from behind. This can easily be accomplished by attacking from two sides, because even with targetlock the GF can only block into one direction. Don't expect a GF to get easily killed in a 1 on 1 fight, the thought alone is ridiculous.

The changes that were made to AoD are my idea, btw. Go look up the GF rework thread if you can find it. And it was the best thing that has ever happened to the class (faster activation time, 2x dmg activation at a lower target hp percentage). We could argue about ITF being a tad too powerful, but that was entirely Ayroux fault/idea anyway, because only he and his friend(s) high ilvl/characters geared by using exploited AD at that time could really get the best boosts out of ITF and almost nobody else used said skill. But anyways, let me repeat it one more time (write it down if you have to) without AoD a GF cannot fight back and that is not what a fighter class is meant to do because it's the GF's job to guard others by fighting, hence the name Guardian - Fighter.

So nope, you are making the GF sound stronger than it actually is, while trying to make the TR class seem weaker than it actually is... when in fact it is exactly the other way around. And this will be my last reply regarding this topic since i am 100% right and you are entirely wrong.


Have a good day.

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pando83

rayrdan said:

i wont stop saying you can do whatever you want to shocking in exchange of a 30% damage boost on all the rest except for shadowy opportunity for reasons.

I 100% agree and proposed that.

oliboyph said:

I guess i mispoke here, i mean support build. Obviously we did not go conqueror.

Anyway mentioning that gf has high kills has to do with anvil which is the perfct finishing skill. But even conquerors will need help to get opponent to that level of hp that we can funish then off, 1 on 1 is still extremely hard. Against an average player with equal ilv gfs will have a terrible time 1 on 1 which is not a bad thing since there is no 1 on 1 pvp event.

I don't understand what you are compaining about, overall concensus no matter what thread is that gf are average strength in pvp as compared to trs that seem to have the status of being kings of pvp.

On average level you meet few decent GFs. Many focused on tanking (since it's a tank class).
Then you meet the PvP-focused and geared ones, who go for the DPS route. And that's a different story.
The 50% flat damage buff the devs gave to the class at the beginning of module 6, made the class similar to what it was pre-module 1 with old-old tenebrous enchant. Basically, a stunlock, one-rotating turtle.

Why you read more complaints about, for example, GWFs?
Explanation: GWFs are able to be stronger in group fights cause they can Lifesteal a lot, EXPECIALLY in brawls, and become very survivable with the right gear, while dealing non-stop high damage, once they reach their fully buffed state.
In a group fight, instead, a GF is usually easier to handle cause you can gang up, hit him from behind and they can't self-heal as fast as GWFs.

So they are perceived as less powerful just because there are less strong DPS PvP GFs and they are more manageable in a group fight, if focused, because they can't self heal much. But as macjae explained, they are a top-tier kill machine right now.
Their burst is probably the stronger and faster. when properly built and geared.

oliboyph

Well it remains an opinion that a pure conqueror can be an actual killing machine against other classes of the same item level ccompared to a TR. While we have an actual top tier pvp gf here who seems to disagree and that again can be just his opinion. But there are 3 truths I would like to point out :

1. In almost every poll here regarding what the strongest class is in pvp is, TR is always top.

2. Majority of people who play pvp are tr, you can go a few games in a row on domination and not see a single gf, while it is a rare occurance to go a game without a single TR.

3. They just introduced 4 rings in this game that are basically designed to equal/counter a built in TR mechanic.

oliboyph

Anyway, just to level with everyone, I am not complaining that TR is too strong or anything like that. I think they have done their part in trying to balance the game, and you really can't avoid having one class outshine the rest. Plus it's not like you don't end up in a party with a 4k TR. As a buffer, even when I'm told to stay on mid point, I really can't help but to run over to the top killer in the party and try to buff him with ITF and see him wipe everyone else. In my opinion a well balanced party will always beat a party with too many dps.

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oliboyph

macjae said:

oliboyph said:

Well it remains an opinion that a pure conqueror can be an actual killing machine against other classes of the same item level ccompared to a TR. While we have an actual top tier pvp gf here who seems to disagree and that again can be just his opinion. But there are 3 truths I would like to point out :



1. In almost every poll here regarding what the strongest class is in pvp is, TR is always top.



2. Majority of people who play pvp are tr, you can go a few games in a row on domination and not see a single gf, while it is a rare occurance to go a game without a single TR.



3. They just introduced 4 rings in this game that are basically designed to equal/counter a built in TR mechanic.

A Conqueror GF is a pure killing machine compared with a TR. This is a statement of fact at the higher item levels. A TR is only able to get remotely comparable damage to a GF with Shocking Execution, and even that won't kill someone as surely as the GF's standard rotation.

I also don't see any top tier GFs in this thread. I know that some of the best GFs I've seen in the game have found the class to have become terribly boring due to how broken it had become. I suppose that certain other players are enjoying it as a form of power trip; I know at least one notorious TR player whose main objective is always ganking as many enemies as possible is now playing GF a lot, probably for that exact reason.

As for your "truths."

First, the "majority" tends to be rather outdated and lag in their understanding of the PvP meta, or are simply too ignorant to understand how to deal with most things. TRs are still a potent class in PvP, but we're not in module 5 anymore. However, to the average player that's lacking in experience and insight, TRs are still hard to deal with. However, OPs are probably the single most problematic class in PvP, and GFs are far more dangerous in close-quarters 1v1 situations than TRs are to most classes.

Second, the occurrence of GFs in PvP isn't necessarily related to the class' strength in PvP, but rather its relative weakness in PvE. As this thread shows quite clearly, most players simply aren't aware of how absurdly powerful the class is when properly specced and geared. In PvE, GFs are, as some have indicated, just a buff bot and lack competitive DPS. In PvP, their burst damage potential is indisputably the highest of any class, and they can tank very well on top of that (though not nearly as well as OPs). The low incidence of GFs in PvP more likely stems from their lack of presence in PvE content, where OPs are much superior tanks, and playing a pure buffbot is boring -- which reduces the overall GF population and leads to fewer crossing over to PvP.

(Incidentally, that also indicates a double-pronged issue; GFs need a relative boost in PvE, but they also need to be less one-shotty in PvP, so changes need to keep both those things in mind.)

Third, this is true. Those rings are also a joke on ranged classes in particular, and if properly abused just favors the GFs even more over ranged classes, because they mean that GFs essentially get the same range as the "ranged" classes -- both operating within 20' or so.

What else is there to say from here. You are actually saying that the majority is outdated or ignorant.

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oliboyph

macjae said:

oliboyph said:

What else is there to say from here. You are actually saying that the majority is outdated or ignorant.

Yes, and that's hardly shocking. Most people that participate aren't fully aware of all the mechanics or possibilities, and make erroneous statements accordingly. A perfect example would be in this thread, where one poster proclaimed that GFs in PvP are "utility only" and can't beat any other class one on one. That is a statement borne out of ignorance of what GFs are actually capable of. The problem is that the majority of players are likewise not aware of those possibilities, because that takes a much higher level of competence and knowledge of the mechanics of *all* the classes than the majority possesses.

The fact that a lot of players focus on TRs as a problem is more likely due to 1) there are still a lot of TRs playing PvP; 2) they don't know how to handle them properly; 3) TR stealth and cc makes it particularly easy to kill people who aren't trained at dealing with that. Meanwhile, low-skilled GFs aren't aware of their damage potential and may be bad at other things like keeping block up, which makes them appear weaker as a class.

What this points to is an information problem and a different relative level of performance at different skill levels. The unskilled majority may struggle with TRs, but they aren't the worst problem for most classes in the game at the moment once you get to the point where players know how to spec properly for PvP and play accordingly. Which is a rapidly shrinking minority of players as the devs are unresponsive to balance concerns, introduce more content which is injurious to the state of PvP, and have offered bad balancing solutions in the past.

Good sir, I have nothing else to say, and actually any argument is pointless as I unlike the OP I have no problems with the game at all. But I must point out that you rebut fact by stating that there is a hidden meta game that majority don't know because they are ignorant. This isn't starcraft code S or dota2 ProLeague, we really don't have any tournaments or regular arranged teams vs other teams to claim any of this. Anyway I can to respond with spite but I probably should not as this would not be constructive in anyway. I can only hope that in the future sir, that you refrain from calling other people "ignorant", we may not be as high item level as you, but we are trying our best to learn this game too.

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