No everyone has access to those two.. they have nothing to do with in game purchases. All zen exchange items you directly bought, are clearly NOT free, as someone paid for that zen.
You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money.
This is a in game (closed) ecomony) it has little direct comparisons to open market. Its controlled, as obvious examples have shown in the last few weeks.
That 2 free slots also cost money to run. Cryptic pays for that. Hence, it is not free either because somebody did pay for it based on your definition. "You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money. "
That's not really relevant to this conversation because cryptic is doing that for real world money gains whereas silverkelt is talking about things being free within context of the in game economy.
When I am talking about free, I am talking about real world money and to be more specific the money in my wallet. I agree we are talking about different context. context 1: my wallet. context 2: everybody. context 3: everybody minus Cryptic.
Which ignores the fact that earning that thing for free means you value your time at something like $0.20 an hour.
I seldom charge people for my entertainment time. If I consider myself working, I should stop playing.
Well that's the thing, resetting leadership tasks is so unrewarding that it feels like work.
Not sure what you mean. Before nerf, AD. After nerf, RP. On the other hand, entertainment usually is not rewarding but work usually does.
Except for the first 21 levels where you get nothing.
For that, those are actually easiest among others for me because I only need to do 2 types of tasks (because my new OP has only 6 slots; I could have more but I do not bother). Both type are just pure leadership XP and 8 hours per session.
I use gateway. Choose task 1. Submit, back page (a button in my mouse), submit, back page, submit. Choose task 2, submit, back page, submit, back page, submit. less than 15 seconds. 2 to 3 times per day.
If you use the gateway you're giving up on invokes. So it's really more like a minute per character two to three times a day.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
No everyone has access to those two.. they have nothing to do with in game purchases. All zen exchange items you directly bought, are clearly NOT free, as someone paid for that zen.
You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money.
This is a in game (closed) ecomony) it has little direct comparisons to open market. Its controlled, as obvious examples have shown in the last few weeks.
That 2 free slots also cost money to run. Cryptic pays for that. Hence, it is not free either because somebody did pay for it based on your definition. "You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money. "
That's not really relevant to this conversation because cryptic is doing that for real world money gains whereas silverkelt is talking about things being free within context of the in game economy.
When I am talking about free, I am talking about real world money and to be more specific the money in my wallet. I agree we are talking about different context. context 1: my wallet. context 2: everybody. context 3: everybody minus Cryptic.
Which ignores the fact that earning that thing for free means you value your time at something like $0.20 an hour.
I seldom charge people for my entertainment time. If I consider myself working, I should stop playing.
Well that's the thing, resetting leadership tasks is so unrewarding that it feels like work.
Not sure what you mean. Before nerf, AD. After nerf, RP. On the other hand, entertainment usually is not rewarding but work usually does.
Except for the first 21 levels where you get nothing.
For that, those are actually easiest among others for me because I only need to do 2 types of tasks (because my new OP has only 6 slots; I could have more but I do not bother). Both type are just pure leadership XP and 8 hours per session.
I use gateway. Choose task 1. Submit, back page (a button in my mouse), submit, back page, submit. Choose task 2, submit, back page, submit, back page, submit. less than 15 seconds. 2 to 3 times per day.
If you use the gateway you're giving up on invokes. So it's really more like a minute per character two to three times a day.
Use both at the same time.
Doing profession in the game is a lot slower than doing profession in gateway.
I use game to invoke. After that, I use gateway to do profession, D20, etc. When I go to AH, I always use gateway.
I can use gateway anywhere and also don't need to wait for the slow game "loading" time.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
No everyone has access to those two.. they have nothing to do with in game purchases. All zen exchange items you directly bought, are clearly NOT free, as someone paid for that zen.
You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money.
This is a in game (closed) ecomony) it has little direct comparisons to open market. Its controlled, as obvious examples have shown in the last few weeks.
That 2 free slots also cost money to run. Cryptic pays for that. Hence, it is not free either because somebody did pay for it based on your definition. "You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money. "
That's not really relevant to this conversation because cryptic is doing that for real world money gains whereas silverkelt is talking about things being free within context of the in game economy.
When I am talking about free, I am talking about real world money and to be more specific the money in my wallet. I agree we are talking about different context. context 1: my wallet. context 2: everybody. context 3: everybody minus Cryptic.
Which ignores the fact that earning that thing for free means you value your time at something like $0.20 an hour.
I seldom charge people for my entertainment time. If I consider myself working, I should stop playing.
Well that's the thing, resetting leadership tasks is so unrewarding that it feels like work.
Not sure what you mean. Before nerf, AD. After nerf, RP. On the other hand, entertainment usually is not rewarding but work usually does.
Except for the first 21 levels where you get nothing.
For that, those are actually easiest among others for me because I only need to do 2 types of tasks (because my new OP has only 6 slots; I could have more but I do not bother). Both type are just pure leadership XP and 8 hours per session.
I use gateway. Choose task 1. Submit, back page (a button in my mouse), submit, back page, submit. Choose task 2, submit, back page, submit, back page, submit. less than 15 seconds. 2 to 3 times per day.
If you use the gateway you're giving up on invokes. So it's really more like a minute per character two to three times a day.
Use both at the same time.
Doing profession in the game is a lot slower than doing profession in gateway.
I use game to invoke. After that, I use gateway to do profession, D20, etc. When I go to AH, I always use gateway.
I can use gateway anywhere and also don't need to wait for the slow game "loading" time.
Using professions in game is just as fast : |
Just use the search function.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
No everyone has access to those two.. they have nothing to do with in game purchases. All zen exchange items you directly bought, are clearly NOT free, as someone paid for that zen.
You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money.
This is a in game (closed) ecomony) it has little direct comparisons to open market. Its controlled, as obvious examples have shown in the last few weeks.
That 2 free slots also cost money to run. Cryptic pays for that. Hence, it is not free either because somebody did pay for it based on your definition. "You cant keep saying something is free, when clearly it costs money. "
That's not really relevant to this conversation because cryptic is doing that for real world money gains whereas silverkelt is talking about things being free within context of the in game economy.
When I am talking about free, I am talking about real world money and to be more specific the money in my wallet. I agree we are talking about different context. context 1: my wallet. context 2: everybody. context 3: everybody minus Cryptic.
Which ignores the fact that earning that thing for free means you value your time at something like $0.20 an hour.
I seldom charge people for my entertainment time. If I consider myself working, I should stop playing.
Well that's the thing, resetting leadership tasks is so unrewarding that it feels like work.
Not sure what you mean. Before nerf, AD. After nerf, RP. On the other hand, entertainment usually is not rewarding but work usually does.
Except for the first 21 levels where you get nothing.
For that, those are actually easiest among others for me because I only need to do 2 types of tasks (because my new OP has only 6 slots; I could have more but I do not bother). Both type are just pure leadership XP and 8 hours per session.
I use gateway. Choose task 1. Submit, back page (a button in my mouse), submit, back page, submit. Choose task 2, submit, back page, submit, back page, submit. less than 15 seconds. 2 to 3 times per day.
If you use the gateway you're giving up on invokes. So it's really more like a minute per character two to three times a day.
Use both at the same time.
Doing profession in the game is a lot slower than doing profession in gateway.
I use game to invoke. After that, I use gateway to do profession, D20, etc. When I go to AH, I always use gateway.
I can use gateway anywhere and also don't need to wait for the slow game "loading" time.
Using professions in game is just as fast : |
Just use the search function.
I use in game for a long time because I thought in game is faster ... until I knew about the back page trick.
Using gateway, you don't need to do anything after you get your first task. Your mouse cursor stays on the submit button. Click, back page (a mouse action), click, back page, click. 3 tasks are set and done without moving your mouse to the "search function" or anything. You can't do that as fast in game.
For the tasks that do not have 3 task limit, it is even better. For example, 9 tasks for collecting something in Jewelcrafting. There is no mouse movement at all and all 9 tasks are set.
For the short collecting material task, it is even more wonderful.
For example, 9 20 minutes tasks. Select the task. Click, back page, click, back page, .... 20 minutes later. collect everything. [Don't even need to select the task] back page, Click, back page, click, back page, .... 20 minutes later. collect everything. [Don't even need to select the task] back page, Click, back page, click, back page, ....
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
NOTE:
The preview shard has the l25 task being 12 hours long and granting two coffers. While it gives less per hour, the fact that you don't have to "baby" it means it's more practical to implement. Also, you can use it simultaneously with the 4 hours task.
The preview shard has the l25 task being 12 hours long and granting two coffers. While it gives less per hour, the fact that you don't have to "baby" it means it's more practical to implement. Also, you can use it simultaneously with the 4 hours task.
Thx 4 info. Would be a small step in the right direction...
As last time I checked gatewaytest, I did not see many changes in leadership prof. Level 25 task gives 2 chests instead of 1 and probably also take slightly less time.
No. The point is that level 23 of Leadership provides MORE XP, the same amount of all other benefits (coffer, gold) and only takes 4 hours.
Level 25 Leadership has the EXACT same task, but offers 1000 fewer XP points, and takes 24 hours to complete at standard rate (minus Hero or VIP bonuses).
I'm not saying Leadership is pointless or worthless - just that there is a clear lack of logic / sense to how they have aligned the rewards for levels of effort. I've had multiple toons developed to cover all other professions - no other profession has this odd topsy turvy setup, where the top level is LESS valuable than lower levels.
There is literally NO reason to ever, ever choose the level 25 Leadership choice. As I said before - that's just lame.
As last time I checked gatewaytest, I did not see many changes in leadership prof. Level 25 task gives 2 chests instead of 1 and probably also take slightly less time.
No. The point is that level 23 of Leadership provides MORE XP, the same amount of all other benefits (coffer, gold) and only takes 4 hours. Level 25 Leadership has the EXACT same task, but offers 1000 fewer XP points, and takes 24 hours to complete at standard rate (minus Hero or VIP bonuses).
I'm not saying Leadership is pointless or worthless - just that there is a clear lack of logic / sense to how they have aligned the rewards for levels of effort. I've had multiple toons developed to cover all other professions - no other profession has this odd topsy turvy setup, where the top level is LESS valuable than lower levels.
There is literally NO reason to ever, ever choose the level 25 Leadership choice. As I said before - that's just lame.
Like he said on the preview servers it's a 12 hour task that gives you two coffers.
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inyawayupdeepMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 206Arc User
People are finding it easier now to have alts, maybe what you should be asking for is the ability to sell your character slots to other players. Crafting is a joke, game would be better without it unless it gets a huge rework, items made are usually mediocre and you can't craft for profit with any reasonable expectation that investments will have returns that justify the expense.
Not true.. I spent money for my leadership slots, it wasnt free. You can say its free to 2 slots. Every other slot had to be purchased either via money or zax, but all zen on zax is paid for. So no, its not free at all. People get these things so mixed up.
My character slots are free for me as I did not pay a cent. If somebody else paid it, it is still free for me.
My friend, you worked and then exchanged, someone paid money for your slots. Thats how this works, it was free to you, but all slots were purchased (unless rewarded through a giveaway anyways).
So no they are not free, outside of the starting two. They are only perceived free to you, but in terms of actual in game purchases, it cost money. Its the same with all zen items you can buy. They are not free.
So something that they were promoting, to get money for, was removed, what they gave back, for said purchases, is a little lackluster.
Regardless of weather they should've done that, they need to redo the profession to make more linear sense, if rewards stay the same, then they should reduce time to get to lvl 25, as they are clearly not worth 90% of the value they were just a couple months ago.
Of course that doesn't help me, just new players honestly. Im maxed the ones Im going to max, there is no reason at this current time to keep maxing leadership out. If they do nothing.. its all the same to me I guess.
THE ENTIRE free concept is only perceived to be free, this has been a failing of many on these forums. ITEMS cost someone money, just because they didn't COST you money,doesnt mean its free at all. This is a major fallacy in many arguments.
If you put it this way, even that 2 free slots are not free because Cryptic pays for that (in terms of development, salary, etc). Same as somebody giving out free money in the mall, that is not free neither because he worked for it too.
For me, as my own opinion, free means something I don't pay directly or indirectly (e.g. health care is not free because I pay that in a form of tax). You can expand that to something else if you wish.
There is absolutely NOTHING "free" in this world except death. Yes governments confiscate what you owned after you die and debtors haggle over what's left, and if you were a person of some means, family and friends (and not friends) might squabble over their chunk of the loot/debt. But you actually got to die for free. EVERYTHING else has a cost, if not to you directly, then to someone else that you are the beneficiary of.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
0
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Let's avoid getting into lengthy lectures about RL economics and politics.
This is a pointless debate, there are 65+ pages of this already somewhere in this forum. I heard that on Test some of the leadership jobs already are changed... not 100% sure tho.
I'm sure there are plans as I also agree as it is currently is pretty silly... there is no point of the max 25th level of leadership but I expect the change made to be worse than what you have now so be careful what you wish for.
They should change the rewards to a resonance bag with a chance to get a greater resonance or a resonance stone and make it so that the lvl 24 resonance bag gives either minor or lesser resonance.
I understand why all the changes were made, but it is taking far too long to address the mess that is the Leadership profession.
But I'm not surprised, really, given all the other problems with professions still here after much longer periods of time. Here are just a few examples (I'm sure we could have a whole thread full):
-- several Level 25 Rare task iL122 armors are missing Armor Enchantment slots (Cloth, Hide, Leather and Darkleather)
-- the Level 25 Rare task iL122 scale armor is AC 11 when it should be at least AC 13 like dropped Rare iL115 armor
-- Black Ice Crafting "upgrade" task to convert pre-Mod 6 BI gear to the new, improved BI gear is broken for Black Ice Gloves, of all things; my main has Purified BI Gloves but the task is asking for Corrupted gloves (smh); btw, I've filed dozens of bug reports on this, it doesn't do any good
On the plus side, kudos for fixing the profession XP bonuses in the Gateway -- it helped my last alt finally get Jewelcrafting to 25 (for the rings) -- and another alt is still slowly leveling Leadership 'cause I'm still hopeful it will be worth it ... please don't disappoint me!
They should change the rewards to a resonance bag with a chance to get a greater resonance or a resonance stone and make it so that the lvl 24 resonance bag gives either minor or lesser resonance.
They changed the rare level 22 8 hour task so that it gives a resonance bag for 3 bandit camp clues. Still haven't changed anything else though. They still need to address the fact that it takes way to long to get to level 21.
IMO if they going to make that viable they should change the level 21 task that gives bandit camp clues to a four hour task. That bag needs to change to not give out worse than a lesser thaum stone though.
I understand why all the changes were made, but it is taking far too long to address the mess that is the Leadership profession.
But I'm not surprised, really, given all the other problems with professions still here after much longer periods of time. Here are just a few examples (I'm sure we could have a whole thread full):
-- several Level 25 Rare task iL122 armors are missing Armor Enchantment slots (Cloth, Hide, Leather and Darkleather)
-- the Level 25 Rare task iL122 scale armor is AC 11 when it should be at least AC 13 like dropped Rare iL115 armor
-- Black Ice Crafting "upgrade" task to convert pre-Mod 6 BI gear to the new, improved BI gear is broken for Black Ice Gloves, of all things; my main has Purified BI Gloves but the task is asking for Corrupted gloves (smh); btw, I've filed dozens of bug reports on this, it doesn't do any good
On the plus side, kudos for fixing the profession XP bonuses in the Gateway -- it helped my last alt finally get Jewelcrafting to 25 (for the rings) -- and another alt is still slowly leveling Leadership 'cause I'm still hopeful it will be worth it ... please don't disappoint me!
Meh. I don't see why they should bother updating obsolete gear. Everyone is going to be doing HEs so it'll be pretty easy to get seals of the elements.
Not true.. I spent money for my leadership slots, it wasnt free. You can say its free to 2 slots. Every other slot had to be purchased either via money or zax, but all zen on zax is paid for. So no, its not free at all. People get these things so mixed up.
My character slots are free for me as I did not pay a cent. If somebody else paid it, it is still free for me.
My friend, you worked and then exchanged, someone paid money for your slots. Thats how this works, it was free to you, but all slots were purchased (unless rewarded through a giveaway anyways).
So no they are not free, outside of the starting two. They are only perceived free to you, but in terms of actual in game purchases, it cost money. Its the same with all zen items you can buy. They are not free.
So something that they were promoting, to get money for, was removed, what they gave back, for said purchases, is a little lackluster.
Regardless of weather they should've done that, they need to redo the profession to make more linear sense, if rewards stay the same, then they should reduce time to get to lvl 25, as they are clearly not worth 90% of the value they were just a couple months ago.
Of course that doesn't help me, just new players honestly. Im maxed the ones Im going to max, there is no reason at this current time to keep maxing leadership out. If they do nothing.. its all the same to me I guess.
THE ENTIRE free concept is only perceived to be free, this has been a failing of many on these forums. ITEMS cost someone money, just because they didn't COST you money,doesnt mean its free at all. This is a major fallacy in many arguments.
If you put it this way, even that 2 free slots are not free because Cryptic pays for that (in terms of development, salary, etc). Same as somebody giving out free money in the mall, that is not free neither because he worked for it too.
For me, as my own opinion, free means something I don't pay directly or indirectly (e.g. health care is not free because I pay that in a form of tax). You can expand that to something else if you wish.
There is absolutely NOTHING "free" in this world except death. Yes governments confiscate what you owned after you die and debtors haggle over what's left, and if you were a person of some means, family and friends (and not friends) might squabble over their chunk of the loot/debt. But you actually got to die for free. EVERYTHING else has a cost, if not to you directly, then to someone else that you are the beneficiary of.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
I Think you are missing the point. This is not a philosophical discussion on the idea of what constitutes "free", rather, it is the actual definition as outlined in most English dictionaries.
Is that a "free" opinion? Tell you what, I'll pay your for that opinion..what's the going rate ? Two cents? *hand's over 2 cents*, there you go, enjoy.... Oh wait, that's "digital" content 2 cents...so really nothing....
So to the Devs our ideas are worth 2 digital cents worth....nothing.
Not true.. I spent money for my leadership slots, it wasnt free. You can say its free to 2 slots. Every other slot had to be purchased either via money or zax, but all zen on zax is paid for. So no, its not free at all. People get these things so mixed up.
My character slots are free for me as I did not pay a cent. If somebody else paid it, it is still free for me.
My friend, you worked and then exchanged, someone paid money for your slots. Thats how this works, it was free to you, but all slots were purchased (unless rewarded through a giveaway anyways).
So no they are not free, outside of the starting two. They are only perceived free to you, but in terms of actual in game purchases, it cost money. Its the same with all zen items you can buy. They are not free.
So something that they were promoting, to get money for, was removed, what they gave back, for said purchases, is a little lackluster.
Regardless of weather they should've done that, they need to redo the profession to make more linear sense, if rewards stay the same, then they should reduce time to get to lvl 25, as they are clearly not worth 90% of the value they were just a couple months ago.
Of course that doesn't help me, just new players honestly. Im maxed the ones Im going to max, there is no reason at this current time to keep maxing leadership out. If they do nothing.. its all the same to me I guess.
THE ENTIRE free concept is only perceived to be free, this has been a failing of many on these forums. ITEMS cost someone money, just because they didn't COST you money,doesnt mean its free at all. This is a major fallacy in many arguments.
If you put it this way, even that 2 free slots are not free because Cryptic pays for that (in terms of development, salary, etc). Same as somebody giving out free money in the mall, that is not free neither because he worked for it too.
For me, as my own opinion, free means something I don't pay directly or indirectly (e.g. health care is not free because I pay that in a form of tax). You can expand that to something else if you wish.
There is absolutely NOTHING "free" in this world except death. Yes governments confiscate what you owned after you die and debtors haggle over what's left, and if you were a person of some means, family and friends (and not friends) might squabble over their chunk of the loot/debt. But you actually got to die for free. EVERYTHING else has a cost, if not to you directly, then to someone else that you are the beneficiary of.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
I Think you are missing the point. This is not a philosophical discussion on the idea of what constitutes "free", rather, it is the actual definition as outlined in most English dictionaries.
i.e. "without cost or payment". There are plenty of things besides money which could constitute a cost.
Meh. I don't see why they should bother updating obsolete gear. Everyone is going to be doing HEs so it'll be pretty easy to get seals of the elements.
Eventually, perhaps, but there are still players leveling up characters who either make their own iL122 gear or buy it from the AH (providing a small income for crafters) until they can get better -- especially casual players like myself with a half dozen alts that I like to play. The iL122 gear is sufficient for Elements PVE and even SH tasks, for now.
So, these broken items may not be important to everyone, but they are to me and probably to a fair number of others -- and our enjoyment of this game is as equally deserving of attention as anyone else's, no matter what stage of the game their characters are at.
Cryptic -- Can you please address this? Do you plan on fixing these bugs or not? I know it's just a matter of priorities, since it couldn't possibly be that difficult to repair the crafting recipes for the iL122 armors or the upgrade recipe for my Black Ice Gloves. We're talking a couple of lines of code and a few recipe table entries. Let me have a look at the code and I'll fix it for free ;-)
Remember, happy players are more apt to spend real money ... just sayin'
Not true.. I spent money for my leadership slots, it wasnt free. You can say its free to 2 slots. Every other slot had to be purchased either via money or zax, but all zen on zax is paid for. So no, its not free at all. People get these things so mixed up.
My character slots are free for me as I did not pay a cent. If somebody else paid it, it is still free for me.
My friend, you worked and then exchanged, someone paid money for your slots. Thats how this works, it was free to you, but all slots were purchased (unless rewarded through a giveaway anyways).
So no they are not free, outside of the starting two. They are only perceived free to you, but in terms of actual in game purchases, it cost money. Its the same with all zen items you can buy. They are not free.
So something that they were promoting, to get money for, was removed, what they gave back, for said purchases, is a little lackluster.
Regardless of weather they should've done that, they need to redo the profession to make more linear sense, if rewards stay the same, then they should reduce time to get to lvl 25, as they are clearly not worth 90% of the value they were just a couple months ago.
Of course that doesn't help me, just new players honestly. Im maxed the ones Im going to max, there is no reason at this current time to keep maxing leadership out. If they do nothing.. its all the same to me I guess.
THE ENTIRE free concept is only perceived to be free, this has been a failing of many on these forums. ITEMS cost someone money, just because they didn't COST you money,doesnt mean its free at all. This is a major fallacy in many arguments.
If you put it this way, even that 2 free slots are not free because Cryptic pays for that (in terms of development, salary, etc). Same as somebody giving out free money in the mall, that is not free neither because he worked for it too.
For me, as my own opinion, free means something I don't pay directly or indirectly (e.g. health care is not free because I pay that in a form of tax). You can expand that to something else if you wish.
There is absolutely NOTHING "free" in this world except death. Yes governments confiscate what you owned after you die and debtors haggle over what's left, and if you were a person of some means, family and friends (and not friends) might squabble over their chunk of the loot/debt. But you actually got to die for free. EVERYTHING else has a cost, if not to you directly, then to someone else that you are the beneficiary of.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
I Think you are missing the point. This is not a philosophical discussion on the idea of what constitutes "free", rather, it is the actual definition as outlined in most English dictionaries.
i.e. "without cost or payment". There are plenty of things besides money which could constitute a cost.
I prefer Webster's Definition. Free- Not costing any money. You can quibble all you like; fact is, if you are not being billed for this service, it is free in that context.
The problem is tradeskills/professions haven't been updated with each mod, they've been left at produce items that were useful in beta. We can all now accept 1-60 as a different game, which the devs seem intent on. Mow we have to deal with the new game ahead of us. They've thrown the crafters a bone with the masterwork professions. But IMO they've got it wrong in how they've done it. Crafters in most MMORPGs tend to be long term players, who build up a clique of customers, and not a group who play cutting edge content themselves. Restricting them to a guild based structure, goes against the free trade and constructive ethos most crafters desire.
Meh. I don't see why they should bother updating obsolete gear. Everyone is going to be doing HEs so it'll be pretty easy to get seals of the elements.
Eventually, perhaps, but there are still players leveling up characters who either make their own iL122 gear or buy it from the AH (providing a small income for crafters) until they can get better -- especially casual players like myself with a half dozen alts that I like to play. The iL122 gear is sufficient for Elements PVE and even SH tasks, for now.
So, these broken items may not be important to everyone, but they are to me and probably to a fair number of others -- and our enjoyment of this game is as equally deserving of attention as anyone else's, no matter what stage of the game their characters are at.
Cryptic -- Can you please address this? Do you plan on fixing these bugs or not? I know it's just a matter of priorities, since it couldn't possibly be that difficult to repair the crafting recipes for the iL122 armors or the upgrade recipe for my Black Ice Gloves. We're talking a couple of lines of code and a few recipe table entries. Let me have a look at the code and I'll fix it for free ;-)
Remember, happy players are more apt to spend real money ... just sayin'
You can jump in a demonic HE with AH blues on DR and earn your T1 armor. Then eventually you'll have enough ichor for Drowcraft.
Not true.. I spent money for my leadership slots, it wasnt free. You can say its free to 2 slots. Every other slot had to be purchased either via money or zax, but all zen on zax is paid for. So no, its not free at all. People get these things so mixed up.
My character slots are free for me as I did not pay a cent. If somebody else paid it, it is still free for me.
My friend, you worked and then exchanged, someone paid money for your slots. Thats how this works, it was free to you, but all slots were purchased (unless rewarded through a giveaway anyways).
So no they are not free, outside of the starting two. They are only perceived free to you, but in terms of actual in game purchases, it cost money. Its the same with all zen items you can buy. They are not free.
So something that they were promoting, to get money for, was removed, what they gave back, for said purchases, is a little lackluster.
Regardless of weather they should've done that, they need to redo the profession to make more linear sense, if rewards stay the same, then they should reduce time to get to lvl 25, as they are clearly not worth 90% of the value they were just a couple months ago.
Of course that doesn't help me, just new players honestly. Im maxed the ones Im going to max, there is no reason at this current time to keep maxing leadership out. If they do nothing.. its all the same to me I guess.
THE ENTIRE free concept is only perceived to be free, this has been a failing of many on these forums. ITEMS cost someone money, just because they didn't COST you money,doesnt mean its free at all. This is a major fallacy in many arguments.
If you put it this way, even that 2 free slots are not free because Cryptic pays for that (in terms of development, salary, etc). Same as somebody giving out free money in the mall, that is not free neither because he worked for it too.
For me, as my own opinion, free means something I don't pay directly or indirectly (e.g. health care is not free because I pay that in a form of tax). You can expand that to something else if you wish.
There is absolutely NOTHING "free" in this world except death. Yes governments confiscate what you owned after you die and debtors haggle over what's left, and if you were a person of some means, family and friends (and not friends) might squabble over their chunk of the loot/debt. But you actually got to die for free. EVERYTHING else has a cost, if not to you directly, then to someone else that you are the beneficiary of.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
I Think you are missing the point. This is not a philosophical discussion on the idea of what constitutes "free", rather, it is the actual definition as outlined in most English dictionaries.
i.e. "without cost or payment". There are plenty of things besides money which could constitute a cost.
I prefer Webster's Definition. Free- Not costing any money. You can quibble all you like; fact is, if you are not being billed for this service, it is free in that context.
There are like fifteen definitions for free on webster alone. They've got a similar one to the one I used.
Would you really say that something that costs 8,000,000 AD is free? Because the amount of time it takes to earn that much AD is pretty obnoxious. Buying something with that much AD feels about as weighty as a purchase made with cash.
That's what a coastal flail snail costs and that's ~ a .02% chance from lockboxes.
Leadership is a profession. Which means it is a job by definition, even if it is a virtual, role playing one. The way I look at the changes to leadership is if my employer told me he was no longer going to pay me in cash and would barter me items of his choice instead. Because of these changes I've watched my supply of AD dwindle, lost interest, and in the past week or so haven't played the game at all. Leveling artifacts is like trying to get a $10 savings account to $1,000,000 at 1% interest. It ain't gonna happen in my lifetime and without ample AD to buy shiny toys to compensate, my joy is gone. When I did buy things from the zen store they were items for fun, not RP to pay the Cryptic tax man. Now I don't buy anything.
I realized I was logging in with no clear sense of what my reward that day would be for doing so. Would Cryptic employees continue to go to work if their employer stopped issuing paychecks and compensated them with food or something? Probably not. It doesn't take a genius to understand what motivates people and what demoralizes them.
The game has become an endless grindfest with only very long term, frustrating rewards. The whole guild mod was just the addition of yet another daily grind. I will say they got that one right at least because it has a continual stream of rewards. But didn't the previous mod consist of killing an endless stream of dragons too? How many millions of dragons can they expect us to kill and keep logging in?
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Just saw the Mastercrafting content update. Don't know about anyone else but though it doesn't impact Leadership it looks like there's plenty more there to give me goals for a while. Hence I logged back in to the game proper today. Check mastercrafting out.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
Leadership 25 giving 2 chests and taking less time, well it's a start.
As last time I checked gatewaytest, I did not see many changes in leadership prof. Level 25 task gives 2 chests instead of 1 and probably also take slightly less time.
I wish this thread was free of definition HAMSTER so people could have a real discussion without all the distraction. (haha that's censored? how funny!)
Comments
Doing profession in the game is a lot slower than doing profession in gateway.
I use game to invoke. After that, I use gateway to do profession, D20, etc.
When I go to AH, I always use gateway.
I can use gateway anywhere and also don't need to wait for the slow game "loading" time.
Just use the search function.
Using gateway, you don't need to do anything after you get your first task. Your mouse cursor stays on the submit button.
Click, back page (a mouse action), click, back page, click. 3 tasks are set and done without moving your mouse to the "search function" or anything. You can't do that as fast in game.
For the tasks that do not have 3 task limit, it is even better. For example, 9 tasks for collecting something in Jewelcrafting. There is no mouse movement at all and all 9 tasks are set.
For the short collecting material task, it is even more wonderful.
For example, 9 20 minutes tasks.
Select the task.
Click, back page, click, back page, ....
20 minutes later.
collect everything. [Don't even need to select the task]
back page, Click, back page, click, back page, ....
20 minutes later.
collect everything. [Don't even need to select the task]
back page, Click, back page, click, back page, ....
The preview shard has the l25 task being 12 hours long and granting two coffers. While it gives less per hour, the fact that you don't have to "baby" it means it's more practical to implement. Also, you can use it simultaneously with the 4 hours task.
Level 25 Leadership has the EXACT same task, but offers 1000 fewer XP points, and takes 24 hours to complete at standard rate (minus Hero or VIP bonuses).
I'm not saying Leadership is pointless or worthless - just that there is a clear lack of logic / sense to how they have aligned the rewards for levels of effort. I've had multiple toons developed to cover all other professions - no other profession has this odd topsy turvy setup, where the top level is LESS valuable than lower levels.
There is literally NO reason to ever, ever choose the level 25 Leadership choice. As I said before - that's just lame.
Like he said on the preview servers it's a 12 hour task that gives you two coffers.
Free health care? Nope. Either you got it as some compensation through your employer as a "benefit" i.e. you worked for it, or your government taxed (confiscated i.e. legally stole) it from someone to pay for it, usually they taxed "the rich" (the rich being everyone that isn't currently in favor or a friend of the ruling class).
Free roads? Nope. Free lunch? Nope. Free Love? Nope. Free will? Nope.
If you aren't paying for something directly or even indirectly, then someone elsewhere is paying for you to have it. There was a whole arguement a while ago about politicians taking people to task with the phrase "you didn't build that" and that WE (the collective we) owed the government and who they (they being the rulers) decided deserved some largesse should get it at everyone else's expense. Some people took exception to this statement (and rightly so imo), the fact was, "they DID build that". They had their pockets robbed of the money to build that road, bridge or building with very little say in the process or if they even needed or wanted that stuff built. They DID build their business, their employees helped and got compensated for doing so. All the citizenry DID, "build that", with zero help and most likely hindered by the "government".
Governments are a accepted evil, that like some mafia don, promises "protection" from some presumed greater evil. We accept that they skim some of all our profits from our labor, to protect and provide for the common good. To what extent they do, depends on the honesty and integrity of those put in place to rule us. There is nothing the government does efficiently or well, governments all depend on some form of centralization, by it's very nature centralization is wasteful. Some argue that the one thing that government does efficently is spend money, that also is false, you need just look at all the frivilous things they spend on, and the structure of rules they enact to get the money from point A to point B to actually find that frvilous thing to see they don't even do that effectively.
So now that that lecture is over
There is nothing "free" about or in this game. they don't create the content and run the servers out of the kindness of their hearts, they want a profit. At the very best, that "free" stuff is a loss-leader to get you to purchase something else, those are far and few with Cryptic to be sure.
I'm sure there are plans as I also agree as it is currently is pretty silly... there is no point of the max 25th level of leadership but I expect the change made to be worse than what you have now so be careful what you wish for.
PnP Red Box DM & Player (74 - ?). NWN + SoU + HotU (4-03),
NWN Diamond Edition, Neverwinter Nights Complete (NWN + NWN2).
But I'm not surprised, really, given all the other problems with professions still here after much longer periods of time. Here are just a few examples (I'm sure we could have a whole thread full):
-- several Level 25 Rare task iL122 armors are missing Armor Enchantment slots (Cloth, Hide, Leather and Darkleather)
-- the Level 25 Rare task iL122 scale armor is AC 11 when it should be at least AC 13 like dropped Rare iL115 armor
-- Black Ice Crafting "upgrade" task to convert pre-Mod 6 BI gear to the new, improved BI gear is broken for Black Ice Gloves, of all things; my main has Purified BI Gloves but the task is asking for Corrupted gloves (smh); btw, I've filed dozens of bug reports on this, it doesn't do any good
On the plus side, kudos for fixing the profession XP bonuses in the Gateway -- it helped my last alt finally get Jewelcrafting to 25 (for the rings) -- and another alt is still slowly leveling Leadership 'cause I'm still hopeful it will be worth it ... please don't disappoint me!
IMO if they going to make that viable they should change the level 21 task that gives bandit camp clues to a four hour task. That bag needs to change to not give out worse than a lesser thaum stone though. Meh. I don't see why they should bother updating obsolete gear. Everyone is going to be doing HEs so it'll be pretty easy to get seals of the elements.
Tell you what, I'll pay your for that opinion..what's the going rate ? Two cents? *hand's over 2 cents*, there you go, enjoy....
Oh wait, that's "digital" content 2 cents...so really nothing....
So to the Devs our ideas are worth 2 digital cents worth....nothing.
So, these broken items may not be important to everyone, but they are to me and probably to a fair number of others -- and our enjoyment of this game is as equally deserving of attention as anyone else's, no matter what stage of the game their characters are at.
Cryptic -- Can you please address this? Do you plan on fixing these bugs or not? I know it's just a matter of priorities, since it couldn't possibly be that difficult to repair the crafting recipes for the iL122 armors or the upgrade recipe for my Black Ice Gloves. We're talking a couple of lines of code and a few recipe table entries. Let me have a look at the code and I'll fix it for free ;-)
Remember, happy players are more apt to spend real money ... just sayin'
We can all now accept 1-60 as a different game, which the devs seem intent on. Mow we have to deal with the new game ahead of us. They've thrown the crafters a bone with the masterwork professions. But IMO they've got it wrong in how they've done it. Crafters in most MMORPGs tend to be long term players, who build up a clique of customers, and not a group who play cutting edge content themselves. Restricting them to a guild based structure, goes against the free trade and constructive ethos most crafters desire.
You can jump in a demonic HE with AH blues on DR and earn your T1 armor. Then eventually you'll have enough ichor for Drowcraft. There are like fifteen definitions for free on webster alone. They've got a similar one to the one I used.
Would you really say that something that costs 8,000,000 AD is free? Because the amount of time it takes to earn that much AD is pretty obnoxious. Buying something with that much AD feels about as weighty as a purchase made with cash.
That's what a coastal flail snail costs and that's ~ a .02% chance from lockboxes.
I realized I was logging in with no clear sense of what my reward that day would be for doing so. Would Cryptic employees continue to go to work if their employer stopped issuing paychecks and compensated them with food or something? Probably not. It doesn't take a genius to understand what motivates people and what demoralizes them.
The game has become an endless grindfest with only very long term, frustrating rewards. The whole guild mod was just the addition of yet another daily grind. I will say they got that one right at least because it has a continual stream of rewards. But didn't the previous mod consist of killing an endless stream of dragons too? How many millions of dragons can they expect us to kill and keep logging in?
(haha that's censored? how funny!)
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance