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AD:Zen EXCH Rate is a HUGE problem in game.
strathkin
Member Posts: 1,798 Arc User
I saw a THREAD that said changes to Leadership Gateway are not our biggest problem. First let me state the title may give the wrong view of the authors position; upon closer inspection he's not suggesting the developer shouldn't have made the change, but that we in fact need things to focus on bigger issues they're trying to resolve. He like I support the change and don't forsee it changing anytime in the near future.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1204412/leadership-ads-and-economy-tweaks-are-not-our-biggest-problems
The reason the F2P market works, is because of the AD:Zen Exchange which allows everyone to earn in game currency, as some have time through normal gameplay, others may purchase game currency in exchange for zen through in game vendors. This creates a balance allowing everyone to contribute to revenue for the developer to rollout new content. The biggest problem NEVERWINTER had (aside from tension of the difficulty increases in MOD 6, and recent expanded XP requirements now mostly behind us) is that some players were farming large amounts of AD via gateway too easily--that creates an unfair advantage to a small group that penalizes the larger community. I'm not talking about those who login to the game run professions or play normal in game content in a manner as intended either.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1204412/leadership-ads-and-economy-tweaks-are-not-our-biggest-problems
The reason the F2P market works, is because of the AD:Zen Exchange which allows everyone to earn in game currency, as some have time through normal gameplay, others may purchase game currency in exchange for zen through in game vendors. This creates a balance allowing everyone to contribute to revenue for the developer to rollout new content. The biggest problem NEVERWINTER had (aside from tension of the difficulty increases in MOD 6, and recent expanded XP requirements now mostly behind us) is that some players were farming large amounts of AD via gateway too easily--that creates an unfair advantage to a small group that penalizes the larger community. I'm not talking about those who login to the game run professions or play normal in game content in a manner as intended either.
- Taking the AD rewards out of Leadership on Gateway was a GREAT move and this does not impact leadership professions for those in the game client. KUDOS!!!
- Another recent announcement to reduce the cost for Greater Marks of Potency and Marks of Potency should be extremely well received. The costs were very high to finalize upgrade of items given the chance for success without wards dependant upon quality not including the time to acquire refinement points--this is a great step in the right direction, -possibly- extend discounts to a few more WB items & Strongholds!
- Now some people may disagree with this BUT I would welcome reducing the amount of AD we can REFINE from our current level down to 9,500 - 13,500 per day. [Range is purely an example] With VIP levels earning a possible 500-1500 additional refinement depending on tier. NOTE: This is one alternate means to increasing the value or purchasing power of AD, and should be done with other WB, Boons, Stronghold items (AD cost) being reduced.
- Lastly--I'd suggest we won't be seeing a reduction of any of the level 70 XP requirements anytime soon, but perhaps the developer may consider increasing XP rewarded on the 4 campaign maps. The campaign (daily) missions used to offer twice the experience despite XP requirements having more than doubled--that decision should be revisited so they award from 5500-9700 XP depending on the mission difficulty or length.
Post edited by strathkin on
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I mean since they lowered the number of quests needed to proceed through the areas?
Clearly you haven't because the rewards for those quests are already over the number that you suggested. What took my main and 2 other toons just about 250 quests, each, to hit level 70. That same effort took my GWF over 400 quests to hit 70. When he was finished with SR... he was low 67... and he was able to still do 10 quests for each section of 3 of the 4 areas... to hit 70.
Why is that?
The increase in XP outweighs the increase in the awarded XP. Again... I did a FULL STUDY of this journey and posted it in the forum.
Secondly the reduction of the refining numbers would increase the need for more AD and a reliance on the bots who sell you that AD that you just spent... via the 'gold spammers'. When people have a lot of rAD sitting in their accounts it is taunting them... and making them think that they have more than they do. Right now in the PTS I have 5 toons with over 1,000,000 rAD each. It would take me 41.6 days to refine all of that into AD. During that 41.6 days I may be tempted, because I have that 1,000,000 sitting there... to buy some AD from a bot.
Why would I do that?
Because I am impatient and I want to buy gmops and rp so I can prepare for the next 2xRP event... with is about 40 days away. This way I wont have to wait for the AD and by then I will have 2,000,000 AD to spend. Do you see why the bots/gold spammers have such a tight grip on the game?
A Black Market is created when the need outweighs the availability of funds. Make funds more available... and the Black Market starts to disappear.
PREVIOUSLY if you did 16 missions per area with 3 areas per map you'd get 48 missions plus the 5-8 bonus quests to complete each MAP--works out to about 220 missions in total to get to lvl 70, plus the higher XP previously awarded for defeating bosses. I won't disagree that even after the mission XP increase in vigilance areas you still require more quest or dungeons completed; however, I suspect we won't see additional XP for vigilance areas. Still the developer realized having created no new vigilance maps they reassessed and bridged a portion of the gap--took MOST of the sting out of getting to 70. Realize I try to look at things from both the players & developers perspective to find something we can both accept.
My POINT 4 in the original thread above is NOT talking about the VIGILANCE area's but Campaign maps one starts upon reaching level 70 like Well of Dragons, Ice Wind Dale, etc... Daily campaign quests used to award 6000 XP but was reduced around when Vigilance area XP was increased. Realize level 70 rewards increased from 720k to over 1.85m (2.5x) XP weeks earlier, still adventurers should get decent XP of 5500-9700 to progress through campaign missions. Again it wouldn't make up for the increased requirements and would still award slightly less than vigilance quests (8,000-16000 XP) but it be one players would appreciate to BRIDGE the gap as they earn other benefits toward campaigns completion.
On your last point I will Strongly Agree to Disagree with you. I would still STRONGLY ENCOURAGE they reduce the AD refinement cap to 9500-13500 per character per day for the reasons I've already identified. I believe the vast majority of players with integrity be they F2P or those who Buy ZEN will all benefit. The AD:Zen ratio sitting at 500:1 (max) for so long clearly shows there is no working economy (or a HUGE abundunce of diamonds on the market driving their value so low) from those who are taking advantage of a system not as intended.
Let's make this CLEAR: it's not just a downpour of Diamonds, not even a Class 5 Tornado, Noah better have launched the Arc, cause we're swimming in diamonds on the market, perhaps only a very limited few have the vast majority of them. A few may have previously acquired them through less reputable means, while others have opened lockboxes and successfully sold items through legitmate means on the auction. The problem today is the exchange has sat at low margins for so too long, we've seen the general increase in prices and the fall in the value of (AD) money for a prolonged period. AD Zen has hit Rock bottom where it remained for a very prolonged period.
At 500:1 means Diamonds are about as cheap a commidity as toilet paper, we should hope to see this range far closer to 250:1 like it is in other cryptic games. I understand you think the problem is the REFINEMENT cap is too low, but then you don't understand ECONOMICS, as increasing the limit would further promote inflation and increase costs. When the dollar erodes in value the government reduces borrowing costs and Cryptic reducing GMOP's is a simliar action to an interest rate cute from the governing body influencing rates it controls to increase the value of money. Getting the AD Zen rate down actually means you BUY MORE for LESS DIAMONDS. I'm surprised the F2P or casual zen purchasers today would sell diamonds which hurts the economic model of the game.
As I've explained they may likely look to first extend cost reductions to other WB items, boons or stronghold content. Still at 500:1 having to sell 1,000,000 refined diamonds to acquire 2000 zen for a Rare mount of limited choice and leaving you with few AD to advance boons, campaigns, or upgrade gear is not worth it. You need to FIX the problem NOT make it worse by increasing what is an already generously high REFINEMENT cap.
FACT:
Star Trek Online another Cryptic game in Season 11 allows users to refine 8000 Dilithium a day. In that game playing several hours a day if you were able to refine 3500-6500 Dilithium on one toon that be a good day, on an ALT toon you'd be happy with maybe 2500-3500, and if you had a third toon you'd be thankful for 1500-2000, etc...
I would BE VERY HAPPY if reducing our cap down to 9,500 - 13,500 per day saw a few other items in the WB reduced in value, along with a few boons, or other items in the Stronghold for sale or donation. Perhaps then we may see a return of a few hourly AD bonus rewards or events.
Playing group content with one character (2 dungeons/skirmishes/PvP) will already net you 12k+ AD, and this is not including drops that you can salvage. In order to obtain refined AD past your proposed limit on the same day, one would need to mail equipment to alts to salvage and refine.
A player with one main character will be severely disadvantaged versus another player with multiple alts.
You also seem to ignore that the majority of botters do not get their income from rough AD, but rather by selling items obtained from private instances and profession nodes (peridots, enchants, mark of potencies etc) on the Auction House for refined AD. Your new proposal does nothing to change this.
Your proposal will futher alienate a large part of the playerbase, for what gain? Making this game emptier than it is, is counterproductive in ensuring its longevity.
I spend money on the game in direct proportion to how much rewards are given. It's a 50/50 proposiion: give me means to get somewhere in game and I'll push that a little further with Zen. The more the reigns are tightened, the more I pull back.
Automated scripts and bots did not require the dailies to be nerfed--and don't pay attention to the well-meaning voice of Scott--they were NERFED. I could easily make more than the level cap before the changes and I did not run an "army". So far, I haven't been getting the amount of rewards they claim are the "newest new rules." I typically get 2000-2500 on dungeons now, not 3000. And I have paid for VIP. This doesn't make me feel like trying skirmish's--because there aren't enough rewards to bother.
AD had been a stable commodity the entire time I've played this game until this month. Whatever you think about the value of AD--it was stable and could be banked on.
This game is so liquid in its policies I don't understand how it can continue. A game requires some form of rules that you can count on.
Yet by the same token I'll explain why I feel differently about this issue of AD REFINEMENT Encouraging they REDUCE other items AD cost at the WB & Guild Stronghold. I think their is a FUNDAMENTAL problem with the flooded supply of diamonds (value is decreased when supply greatly outpaces demand) that has ERODED AD VALUE so much. Unforutnatley most people here see reducing the AD refinement limits as undesirable as the difficulty increase in Mod 6 or expanded XP requirements for level 60-70. The reason is clear: if you are saving 75,000 AD for every Greater Mark of Potency you buy, or when 2 SMOPs upgrade a rank 10 enchant to a rank 11 where before you needed 5 GMOP you are saving 300,000 AD. You clearly need far less available AD to buy what used to cost you more, and deeping one what other costs are reduced, I'd be open to a moderate refinement adjustment--yet it may not come to that depending how the market reacts to annouced price changes.
You shouldn't look at it lowering the cost of items on the Auction, but increasing the PURCHASING POWER of each of the diamonds you do have. This also his includes earning more Zen for the Diamonds you do have. We've seen this playing out slowly over the last few weeks & months as AD rewards have been scaled back or reduced or replaced with alternatives which I believe are still more than fair.
UNLIKE the two changes early this summer first spoken of in the first paragraph that asked us to DO MORE--WITH LESS this time were getting presented with options (STIMULUS ACTIVITY) that shouts WITH LESS--DO MORE! Why isn't everyone excited to hear GMOP price reductions and hopeful there may be 1 or 2 more coming?,
One user posted earlier today in another thread he had 16 toons & depending how long he played could raise almost 400,000 AD or the equavalent 800 zen in a day (@500:1 ratio) that's shows AD is far likely still too easily acquired & refined in large quantities each day that DEVALUES the primary in game currency for the majority! Still I think the idea of even attempting what he is suggesting gives me a headache. Certainly BOTS are the biggest problems and players should not buy from unauthorized third parties, but some players had also taken advantage of leadership armies farming AD 24/7 on gateway with all toons.
Earlier today I saw the AD:Zen ratio fall to 450:1 then to just below 420:1 the first time ever a long time, and believe that is an extremely good development for the entire community--but we still have a long way to go.
I, and many of the posters who have come out against the change as implemented, have repeatedly stated we would have been fine with the removal of AD from Leadership if had been a well thought, and planned, out change. Instead we got dumped on by one of the worst piles of rubbish I have seen in my 12 years of playing MMO's. There is no reason, excuse, or justification for such a poorly thought out/implemented, drastic change to the game that has alienated a large chunk of the population that remains. People who are accepting of the platitudes that "we will be making adjustments over the next several months" are just trying to keep a smile face on their face while eating the HAMSTER sandwich they were handed.
The decrease in the price of marks is only the first of many changes that need to be made for the loss of income, and it has not even been implemented yet. The longer that Cryptic takes to make the necessary changes, the more people will flee the game for something else.
Often the changes are to lower player enjoyability of the game to kill something off or to enhance profits. They usually do not kill whatever they are aiming for and their profits, to the best of my knowledge are dwindling. Certainly their resources seem to be.
I have a tendency to buy Zen and want a stable AD to Zen ratio--I had no problem with 500:1.
This game is extremely unstable, any progress I make is generally roled back by some next change. Now you want to lower the refinement cap so my character can have even less. I don't want to hear how it could be good 6 mos. from now. I highly doubt I will be here.
I will respond to your second paragraph and state I fully appreciate, understand, an empathize with how you feel the way many of these changes are implemented often without notice. Unfotunately I think the most we could ask for is advanced notice around area's being reviewed or with pending changes. For example: We are currently reviewing features and functionality as part of our Gateway to ensure it provides features and competitive offerings that complement yet don't take away for our core game environment. No corporation generally provides advanced notice of policy changes before they are made official, no different than quarterly results are only released and the end of the quarter after markets have closed.
I also suspect there was a GREAT deal of debate, dialog, and deliberation on a number the issues discussed at different times by the developer that we've touched on within this thread prior to any decision being made or planned, and then communicated prior to be fully implemented--unfortunately while we may like greater notice about potential changes, the specifics involving game mechanics will likely be announced just prior to release, we all get the news in the same way at the same time so it disadvantages or advantages no one. But I'm confused but your statement which claims a loss of income, anything announced thus far is actually an INCREASE--Yesterday to upgrade five Rank 10 Enchantments to 11 you'd require 25 GMOPs (2,500,000 AD) whereas in the near future you'd require 10 SMOPs (1,000,000 AD) saving you 60%.
The ONLY loss of income is IF you in knowing this information now you decided to buy the Refining stones and upgrade it today rather than wait a few days to a week and still have 1.5m AD currency to buy other things with. How would you loose money if you had been wanting to buy a new Ford Mustang and priced it out for 25,000 USD but then waited two days to buy only to discover they had a price cut down to 10,000 USD how would the 15,000 USD still in your pocket represent a LOSS OF INCOME to you? I recognize the price cut FORD (Loss of Income) they wrote off as the reseller of goods but that's not YOU. You're also not an Illegal 3rd party reseller, BOT farmer, or someone who'd be charging out of game currency for items earned in game I presume--so it doesn't apply. Shaking HEAD no it does not because as the value of AD increases (500:1, 450:1, 400:1, 300:1) sure you'll get less AD for the same amount of ZEN; before you got 500,000 AD for 1000 zen in future perhaps 350K AD, yet as the value of AD increases (WITH LESS--DO MORE) each diamond buys more. You can now buy GMOPs for 75% less AD and likely it will extend to other auction items as the AD Zen Rate moves closer toward 250-350:1. Economics don't work in reverse: trading more AD in exchange for an item, for AD that are less abundant / RARE or more valuable--is backwards. This first action (GMOP/SMOP reductions) taken by the developer is an innovative step to address complex economic problems that should be warmly welcomed by the gaming community...
--made a few punctuation corrections and added a few commas.
Two weeks ago I would get 6K running ONE dungeon during dungeon hour. Now I'm supposed to get 3K each for TWO dungeons. I've been actually pocketing between 2000-2500 per dungeon because it was hastily implemented and they can't seem to give the right amount. They certainly shouldn't give LESS than the amount specified, but this is Cryptic. Since it is less than the specified amount, I am also out VIP rewards. A loss of at least 1000 AND double the work.
Two weeks ago I would get 8000 a day for doing PVP, with 2 separate PVP quests--Trade of Blades' and Rhix's. Now I get 4000, 2000 each for two separate matches. That's a loss of 4000. I do seem to get the VIP bonus here.
I don't normally do skirmishes, but because they are locking things down so much, I'd think about it. But I don't get enough from the dungeons to make be believe the skirmishes are worth doing.
They suggest that I could make more by doing additional PVP, Dungeons and skirmishes, but these pay in quantities of less than 1000. That is not worth my time. I'd rather be doing campaigns and Stronghold work--none of which pays, but is full of AD SINKS.
AD SINKS
The GMOP was an AD sink and I agree they have taken steps there. However the game is riddled with them, through boons, campaigns, Stronghold coffers, other devices too numerous to count. Boons for WOD, for example, cost 160K outright, and require buying "books" that can run as high as 300K more. This is not covered by the daily grind.
Cryptic is not going to get around to addressing these whatsoever, they typically let smaller things fester for months. Things this major and intricate would take a team of developers some time to work through. By lowering the cap, by making AD worth more, you make the AD sinks cost more. By having less AD on hand, a player has less to contain the damage these cause. Therefore I am against making stronger AD and for putting more AD in pocket.
- Dungeon's & Skirmishes bonus is possibly influenced on your overall rankings based on your class, defeating end boss, and completion time, and AD bonus I've heard drops near the boss.
- PvP I'd suggest the bonus is influenced based on your performance or score (first two matches), whereas all normal rewards combine your team winning the match, team score and/or margin of victory on sliding scale..
I certainly do however appreciate you being open about some of your concerns as well. I do believe Cryptic ultimately does look out for the best interest of the larger gaming community. Sometimes as players we get caught up in issues that effect us in the moment even if we recognize all the Great things they work very hard to bring to us. I think many people appreciate a lot of what they do, yet we saw a lot come & go the past few months. I do believe many rewards or features were put in with the best of intent, but there are a some who will try to take advantage and ruin it for the average player. Other idea's that sound or test well with one group, don't appeal to different groups for other reasons.I heard you appreciate a stable AD Zen Rate which many do appreciate, but 500:1 why would you want to pay that give the time it takes to earn all those AD? I'd think there's very few who are happy with a 500:1 exchange rate many may not even like a rate of 300:1 but it's a lot more fair than where we've come from. I don't see how you wouldn't be happy earning 350:1 in a few weeks time - especially if other in game cost also dropped as a result? I'm also not saying the refinement limit will change but it's an unusaully high rate.
--
Anyone who has read this thread:
I've have been informed by a wide variety of users in the community who remember the Zen Ratio being in the low to mid 350:1 range. Cryptic has said they will update the changes with SMOPs, GMOPs and MOPs and closely monitor how it impacts the economy and exchange rate. They aren't going to make too many annoucements too fast as they have to allow the market to stabilize before seeing if further action is warranted. I do believe these changes will positively influence the larger gaming community, and this will be one change many of us will look back on positively. Earlier posts were but a possible list of alternatives to consider to ensuring a stable and fair Astral Diamond to Zen exchange rate economy that will benefit everyone.
If anyone wants to see a post Cryptic made back in Sept 2013 showing the AD Zen Exchange Rate along with an explanation of the market:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/1004910-neverwinter-astral-diamonds-guide
As far as the rest, I get it. You're pushing for a job with PWE! Good luck to you!
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Um people with multiple toons....should have an advantage over people that dont....otherwise if their was not an advantage . Then remove the cost to unlock character slots...drr
I think the problem with Gateway was people found away around it using basic scripting, macros, or other exploits to constantly farm using all their toons to so the leadership gateway was constantly farming 24/7 in manner that was being taken advantage of.
24K a day is far too little AD.
They reduced the costs of GMOPS, but introduced new SMOPS. At 100K a pop, it takes forever to earn that at 24K a day.
Then consider the costs of BOONs from the various expansions. How about the costs of transmutes, respecing, Mounts, Refinement etc. etc.
Do you think players are going to stay if they can only earn 10K a day? Just look at the peak numbers. They lost a ton of players after the leadership gateway and leadership AD nerfs.
There is a difference between having goals, stretch goals and completely impossible goals. Once something looks impossible to attain, people give up and leave.
Another item, you haven't looked at the Zax lately. It's already down to 400k and I suspect it will keep falling and falling.
The problem is that, no single AD cost is necessarily gamebreaking on its own, but together they become potentially oppressive.
The ZAX being down to 400 per isn't a problem. It was in the 300s range back near the launch of NWO. The problem is the cost of items in zen.
I do agree that the Zax being down to 400 isn't a problem and I expect it to drop down close to 200 eventually. All good in theory.
But you do have to keep in mind, that even when the Zax was close to 200, people back then still had a reasonable way to earn AD (Farming CN, etc.). I know tons of folks that got decked out in R10s back then, solely from farming CN.
I also agree that the current Zen prices are too high. Looking at it strictly from a $ to Zen purchase, the prices are too high as a cash cost.
In all seriousness, the marginal effectiveness of going from okay-gear to BIS shouldn't be so great that having BIS is mandated.
Also for the game to be more successful we require a AD:Zen ratio in the 200's to low 300's... In those ranges people could at times afford to offset zen purchases by selling AD at a fair market rate to purchase other items they desire.
I think that the price of advancement needs to go down in real dollar terms. I understand that us free-to-players want to be able to feel like our work is valuable, but just from a game financing standpoint, I am skeptical whether such a low time/money ratio will function.
Asking to reduce the refinement limit from 24 to 10 is like asking for the prices to be more than doubled.
Frankly, Im sick and tired of discussing the exchange.. put it as a permanent 500 :1 and leave it. There. Happy? I would be...
Or remove exchange entirely... I would be even happier. I feel like my whole game experience has been ruined by it, remove the darn thing, ive never even used it, nor do I think it makes the game better.