icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I think the OP players are not seeing the problem here.... Yes, if you do little damage, then you can be semi-immortal, I do not have much issue with that, you can survive like Dragonbait 150 games or so with only 2 death, no problem.
The problem is.... the OPs are making the people around them semi-immortal too, and that's what people concern about. Just like a DC, we dont care if they survive like a tank, but if they also make the teammates around them semi-immortal... then that's where the problem is! In a pug team we do not usually have enough firepower to take down a highly geared DC while spreading our men across to different nodes to cap/score points, and if the DC makes all others around them immortal, then the team with no healing power basically has no chance but die a slow death! (could be quick too...)
Now imagine a troll team with 3 immortal OPs and 2 other DPS jumping around just killing everything since they are shielded and becomes very hard to kill too.... how could any pug or average team do anything about that?
Personally I was randomly pugged into a team with 2 DC and 2 OP with just me being the DPS another day... needless to say the OP/DC spreaded out to cap, and the pugs has zero chance killing any one of them... we have limited fire power, but since nobody could die, all these enemies eventually just die a slow death, needless to say, we ended up winning the game, but, is this really the long draggy boring PvP you wanted? Look at last year when Neverwinter's PvP was actually highly praised by reputable game reviewing companies, they were fast-paced, exciting, with everyone being able to kill one another and was more thrilling! Now... its just immortals sitting idle on node and start chatting... oh yea, its becoming like PcP （Player Chats Players） and see who bores another party out first...
1 - So, paladin are immortal? on 1 vs 1? kind of, and we are not supposed to die on 1 vs 1.
2 - Any smart people will not ask to nerf that skill because its absolutly usefull in dungeon
3 - always the same sentences, does it make you feeling better? the mechanic isent broken, some people have learnt about how fighting a paladin, most people didnt.
1 - No, are not. OP are supposed to DIE MORE SLOW (or be able to run away) than other classes IF a striker class is facing you. No any class is suposed to be IMMORTAL vs anything for THAT long time.
2 - Where did you have read "PvE" here? We are not asking for a nerf for PvE but for PvP.
3 - That is the same lame "excuse" ('cry rivers of tears' is a better definition) that some OP players said about "DJ being fine"...
You are hopeless, Paladins running away? Paladins are not rogues or GWFs. Paladins plant their feet, brace for the impact and survive it. The Paladin in Neverwinter has the greatest capacity for taking/negating damage and worst damage output of all.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
So you're seriously saying the "afternoon tea-time" people are having at node 2 while surrounded by all sorts of lighting effects with an endless continuation of 0 - 0 - 0 - 0- 0- 0- 0- 0- 0- ... for an hour, is not a problem at all?
Remember, the original post noted out a problem with the daily, Divine Protection. Maybe its okay for you to be unkillable, but then what's the justification of everyone effected by the power also being unkillable? Better yet, if you have a DC or another OPal in the vicinity that rotates stuff like Empowered Arsetroll Shield or DivPro, each armed with a legendary rank of either WoE for the temp HP or SigDiv for daily spamming, how are we supposed to kill this again?
Throw us a bone, because for the life of me I don't see an answer to that one.
I've already mentioned that I did take measures to come up with a working anti-DC/OP build. It works against one of them, but to dispatch of one of them I turn myself into a CC-vending machine not much else. Even if I'm present, I need usually a second or third player to deliver DPS to bring a OPal or DC down. Great, so we have an answer to bringing down one of them.
Then how do you bring down a DC-OP combo? Especially if the numbers are limited to lower, like Domination where there's only 5 players each team? By the same calculation it will take at least two of me to individually CC both of them, and then another three players each as DPS, requiring a total of 8 players in perfect coordination with each other.
You can't kill anything 1v1, so you want to be unkillable 1v1. Fine. Then why the heck are everyone else around you unkillable?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think the OP players are not seeing the problem here.... Yes, if you do little damage, then you can be semi-immortal, I do not have much issue with that, you can survive like Dragonbait 150 games or so with only 2 death, no problem.
The problem is.... the OPs are making the people around them semi-immortal too, and that's what people concern about. Just like a DC, we dont care if they survive like a tank, but if they also make the teammates around them semi-immortal... then that's where the problem is! In a pug team we do not usually have enough firepower to take down a highly geared DC while spreading our men across to different nodes to cap/score points, and if the DC makes all others around them immortal, then the team with no healing power basically has no chance but die a slow death! (could be quick too...)
Now imagine a troll team with 3 immortal OPs and 2 other DPS jumping around just killing everything since they are shielded and becomes very hard to kill too.... how could any pug or average team do anything about that?
Personally I was randomly pugged into a team with 2 DC and 2 OP with just me being the DPS another day... needless to say the OP/DC spreaded out to cap, and the pugs has zero chance killing any one of them... we have limited fire power, but since nobody could die, all these enemies eventually just die a slow death, needless to say, we ended up winning the game, but, is this really the long draggy boring PvP you wanted? Look at last year when Neverwinter's PvP was actually highly praised by reputable game reviewing companies, they were fast-paced, exciting, with everyone being able to kill one another and was more thrilling! Now... its just immortals sitting idle on node and start chatting... oh yea, its becoming like PcP （Player Chats Players） and see who bores another party out first...
Even if you can't beat BIS OP tank with 2 dps, you can still outcap him or just send DC to perma knock back him until he get bored. Then one of you can leave and Paladin is stuck, he cant kill you nor jump on mount if you dps him.
Even if you can't beat BIS OP tank with 2 dps, you can still outcap him or just send DC to perma knock back him until he get bored. Then one of you can leave and Paladin is stuck, he cant kill you nor jump on mount if you dps him.
So are you willing to play that way for next 6 months until a new mod? I sure as hell ain't.
When I queue for PvP I expect a contest of tactics, wits, and action packed combat. I don't expect a stupid system dominated by passive defense numbers, spending 60 minutes hitting a turtle to see if it ever pops his head out.
There is no PvP with DCOPs in Domination.
It's players versus walking, talking, combat dummies.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
For the sake of PvE balance, thats going to be ruined when PvPs balance is finished for OP - fix all bugs that make this class stronger in PvP. In the Glory x2 week I tried to PvP with my OP and took Aura of Vengeance. Now here is the thing: Aura of Vengeance procs Echoes of light For those that arent familiar with paladin feats - it makes all your encounters reset instantly. What does it mean? Perma cleansing touch (refresh temp hp, heal, remove cc), perma AP, perma Binding Oath and whatever you picked as your 3rd encounter. With all the endless loops that can happen with Aura of Vengeance (this has to be looked into as well) it makes OP WAY stronger than it should be. I tested it - not much, because Im not really into PvP, but all I can say - with DP and looping AoV, or just more than 2-3 people around I could cast my encounters without cooldowns. Fix this and look at the class again before you nerf it into the ground. Im sure that once DP is nerfed and this bug stays around there will be more complaints on OP Paladins (perma binding oath?).
OPs have the second highest KDR after TRs. Two things are noteworthy with this: Some of those TR stats were accrued before the SO nerf, while all of the OP stats were accrued in the wake of the DJ nerf. So TRs are presently performing worse than those statistics indicate, and would probably fall below OPs in terms of KDR now.
yeah but with OPs being so brokenly OP, why their win % is same as GWF/GF/HR, while CW(and TR) have much higher win %, i think that win % is more important than KDA or KDR
and how many kills on pladin KDR were made by paladin and how many were just last hits, and how many kills on TR/CW KDR were made by the class and how many were just lasthits like with paladin ?
In your case Clonk my man its probably a l2p issue. All I've seen from you for the past 2-3 mods is complaining. The Paladin deserved the first nerf ( DJ ), it was flat out broken. Now you come after his, a TANK, ability to protect his party. After this is nerfed ( DP ) you will come after his ability to protect himself. No need to reply, I know you will. Thats how the handful of regular forum warriors, you included, operates.
Seems like you do not get the thing:
one matter is TO TANK, which is ok and i do not complain about it. Watching 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 all that time??? Even Steel Defense do not last that long... OR are you telling me/us that the perma-immortal-reflect build from GF on mod4 was fine at all??? because, for me, it was not.
Edit and P.S. : Sometimes, i think that most players here just want to read themselves instead of thinking about "past days and how it affected to PvP performances"... but seems like not even clear examples provide them some light into their senseless.
if you are hitting 0 to a paladin then you are either paladin or cleric
On the other hand, this explanation is not entirely satisfactory because it contradicts with the DC's performance. Though that may be as simple as DC healing being more reliable and a constant factor of the class, whereas a lot of OPs may still be playing the class in less optimal ways.
i think DC are much more likely to run with a premade, for example there was quite obvious duo of DC GWF both next to each other on board, both have same nr of wins and loses, and Dragonbait - i really doubt that 2 deaths in 80 games are without help of DC or smth
i know i would never soloq as cleric - while paladins at least can do something if his team is HAMSTER, DCs are HAMSTER.
if you are hitting 0 to a paladin then you are either paladin or cleric
Or a GF or a 3.2k IL GWF striking a 2.8k IL OP and watching the same numbers...
although GWF is probably the worst DPS class to try to kill pala, since gwf is sustained dmg and paladins are best at dealing with sustained damage, but if you are seeing 0s then i have no ffn clue what are you wearing, ofc a gwf with that gear level wont ever kill the paladin, since he will be hitting temp hp, but it shouldnt be 0's
if you are hitting 0 to a paladin then you are either paladin or cleric
Or a GF or a 3.2k IL GWF striking a 2.8k IL OP and watching the same numbers...
although GWF is probably the worst DPS class to try to kill pala, since gwf is sustained dmg and paladins are best at dealing with sustained damage, but if you are seeing 0s then i have no ffn clue what are you wearing, ofc a gwf with that gear level wont ever kill the paladin, since he will be hitting temp hp, but it shouldnt be 0's
Probably 3 stacks of shield from shielding strike + maybe some Bulwark shields, even though most OPs are Justice. Shielding strike is another issue in PvP - it gives you shield from every 3rd swing , not hit, means that while in combat you can hit the air and get stacks. My PvE 3.2k iLvL OP (0 tenacity) with 3 stacks of shielding strikes saw only 0s coming from most sustained damage sources (and 3.2k ilvl GWF spamming sure strike without hidden daggers, or any other stuff that GWFs in PvP use is surely a sustained damage source).
cmon trying to kill similarly geared pala in 1v1 is about as smart as trying to tear down concrete wall with your face, but the put pala has about same dps potential as the said wall
People need to realize that killing is not required to win the match. Just because you prefer such tactic doesnt mean it should be the only one viable way to win.
Comments
The problem is.... the OPs are making the people around them semi-immortal too, and that's what people concern about. Just like a DC, we dont care if they survive like a tank, but if they also make the teammates around them semi-immortal... then that's where the problem is! In a pug team we do not usually have enough firepower to take down a highly geared DC while spreading our men across to different nodes to cap/score points, and if the DC makes all others around them immortal, then the team with no healing power basically has no chance but die a slow death! (could be quick too...)
Now imagine a troll team with 3 immortal OPs and 2 other DPS jumping around just killing everything since they are shielded and becomes very hard to kill too.... how could any pug or average team do anything about that?
Personally I was randomly pugged into a team with 2 DC and 2 OP with just me being the DPS another day... needless to say the OP/DC spreaded out to cap, and the pugs has zero chance killing any one of them... we have limited fire power, but since nobody could die, all these enemies eventually just die a slow death, needless to say, we ended up winning the game, but, is this really the long draggy boring PvP you wanted? Look at last year when Neverwinter's PvP was actually highly praised by reputable game reviewing companies, they were fast-paced, exciting, with everyone being able to kill one another and was more thrilling! Now... its just immortals sitting idle on node and start chatting... oh yea, its becoming like PcP （Player Chats Players） and see who bores another party out first...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Masterfully presented. I agree with every word.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You are hopeless, Paladins running away? Paladins are not rogues or GWFs. Paladins plant their feet, brace for the impact and survive it. The Paladin in Neverwinter has the greatest capacity for taking/negating damage and worst damage output of all.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
So you're seriously saying the "afternoon tea-time" people are having at node 2 while surrounded by all sorts of lighting effects with an endless continuation of 0 - 0 - 0 - 0- 0- 0- 0- 0- 0- ... for an hour, is not a problem at all?
Remember, the original post noted out a problem with the daily, Divine Protection. Maybe its okay for you to be unkillable, but then what's the justification of everyone effected by the power also being unkillable? Better yet, if you have a DC or another OPal in the vicinity that rotates stuff like Empowered Arsetroll Shield or DivPro, each armed with a legendary rank of either WoE for the temp HP or SigDiv for daily spamming, how are we supposed to kill this again?
Throw us a bone, because for the life of me I don't see an answer to that one.
I've already mentioned that I did take measures to come up with a working anti-DC/OP build. It works against one of them, but to dispatch of one of them I turn myself into a CC-vending machine not much else. Even if I'm present, I need usually a second or third player to deliver DPS to bring a OPal or DC down. Great, so we have an answer to bringing down one of them.
Then how do you bring down a DC-OP combo? Especially if the numbers are limited to lower, like Domination where there's only 5 players each team? By the same calculation it will take at least two of me to individually CC both of them, and then another three players each as DPS, requiring a total of 8 players in perfect coordination with each other.
You can't kill anything 1v1, so you want to be unkillable 1v1. Fine. Then why the heck are everyone else around you unkillable?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Even if you can't beat BIS OP tank with 2 dps, you can still outcap him or just send DC to perma knock back him until he get bored. Then one of you can leave and Paladin is stuck, he cant kill you nor jump on mount if you dps him.
So are you willing to play that way for next 6 months until a new mod? I sure as hell ain't.
When I queue for PvP I expect a contest of tactics, wits, and action packed combat. I don't expect a stupid system dominated by passive defense numbers, spending 60 minutes hitting a turtle to see if it ever pops his head out.
There is no PvP with DCOPs in Domination.
It's players versus walking, talking, combat dummies.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aura of Vengeance procs Echoes of light For those that arent familiar with paladin feats - it makes all your encounters reset instantly. What does it mean? Perma cleansing touch (refresh temp hp, heal, remove cc), perma AP, perma Binding Oath and whatever you picked as your 3rd encounter. With all the endless loops that can happen with Aura of Vengeance (this has to be looked into as well) it makes OP WAY stronger than it should be. I tested it - not much, because Im not really into PvP, but all I can say - with DP and looping AoV, or just more than 2-3 people around I could cast my encounters without cooldowns. Fix this and look at the class again before you nerf it into the ground. Im sure that once DP is nerfed and this bug stays around there will be more complaints on OP Paladins (perma binding oath?).
yeah but with OPs being so brokenly OP, why their win % is same as GWF/GF/HR, while CW(and TR) have much higher win %, i think that win % is more important than KDA or KDR
and how many kills on pladin KDR were made by paladin and how many were just last hits, and how many kills on TR/CW KDR were made by the class and how many were just lasthits like with paladin ?
if you are hitting 0 to a paladin then you are either paladin or cleric
i think DC are much more likely to run with a premade, for example there was quite obvious duo of DC GWF both next to each other on board, both have same nr of wins and loses, and Dragonbait - i really doubt that 2 deaths in 80 games are without help of DC or smth
i know i would never soloq as cleric - while paladins at least can do something if his team is HAMSTER, DCs are HAMSTER.
although GWF is probably the worst DPS class to try to kill pala, since gwf is sustained dmg and paladins are best at dealing with sustained damage, but if you are seeing 0s then i have no ffn clue what are you wearing, ofc a gwf with that gear level wont ever kill the paladin, since he will be hitting temp hp, but it shouldnt be 0's
Probably 3 stacks of shield from shielding strike + maybe some Bulwark shields, even though most OPs are Justice. Shielding strike is another issue in PvP - it gives you shield from every 3rd swing , not hit, means that while in combat you can hit the air and get stacks. My PvE 3.2k iLvL OP (0 tenacity) with 3 stacks of shielding strikes saw only 0s coming from most sustained damage sources (and 3.2k ilvl GWF spamming sure strike without hidden daggers, or any other stuff that GWFs in PvP use is surely a sustained damage source).