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Mythbusters: CO Edition

foxypersonfoxyperson Posts: 251 Arc User
edited October 2014 in Champions Online Discussion
Myth: "We can't create a water-based powerset because the game doesn't have the technology"

CO_water_cannon.jpg

Myth: Busted!
Post edited by foxyperson on

Comments

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    What year did they say that? :P
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  • foxypersonfoxyperson Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    What year did they say that? :P

    Two years ago I think, but it's irrelevant seeing how there has always been fountains in Millenium City. It's exactly the same effect. :P
  • bdragon4cobdragon4co Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I was just wondering why they didn't have a Water based Powerset today. They should make one! After all, I remember when people said that they wouldn't make Vehicles either and look at us now.
  • eiledoneiledon Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    making a fixed size animation object is slightly different than making a power which can operate over variable distance and scale.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Myth: Tech issues were the reason why a number of requests can't be added, along with permanent content, and why the game is often excluded from lists.
  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,799 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    You guys know there's more to "busting a myth" than just saying you don't believe it, right? :wink:

    Please show your work
    . :biggrin:
    'Dec out

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  • ethanmorriganethanmorrigan Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    When i always hear speaking about the water powers, i always have to think on the Roin'esh from Whiteout which can shoot a stream of greenish liquid at you. Recolor that power to water and ta dah! Another water power.
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Myth: PvP kicking bug would be too hard to fix and we have no idea what causes it.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited October 2014
    eiledon wrote: »
    making a fixed size animation object is slightly different than making a power which can operate over variable distance and scale.

    ^Pretty much this.
  • novaninja555novaninja555 Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    eiledon wrote: »
    making a fixed size animation object is slightly different than making a power which can operate over variable distance and scale.

    Touch

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  • bdragon4cobdragon4co Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    eiledon wrote: »
    making a fixed size animation object is slightly different than making a power which can operate over variable distance and scale.

    While very true, a water powerset isn't impossible. I think the bigger obstacle is figuring out how the powerset will fit into the gameplay. Each powerset has to have its own feel and dynamics to make it interesting and a water powerset, if poorly done, could look like a clone of The Glacier. (Not that I would be opposed to that!)
  • sorceror01sorceror01 Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    bdragon4co wrote: »
    While very true, a water powerset isn't impossible. I think the bigger obstacle is figuring out how the powerset will fit into the gameplay. Each powerset has to have its own feel and dynamics to make it interesting and a water powerset, if poorly done, could look like a clone of The Glacier. (Not that I would be opposed to that!)

    I always assumed that water powers would do stuff like:
    -deal crushing damage
    -have decent to high knockback potential
    -occasionally deal Ice damage (which in the game is different than Cold), and maybe even Fire damage for one move (a steam blast)
    -have a bunch of either charge up moves or maintain moves

    Water powers in CO would be somewhat mechanically similar to Wind powers, but of a different flavoring. They may also be more short range than Wind, as water would lose it's force and damage potential over longer distances.

    Really, mechanically speaking, it wouldn't be TOO hard to come up with a decent moveset for Water powers. What limits the devs here is the visuals for the most part.
  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,531 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    sorceror01 wrote: »
    Really, mechanically speaking, it wouldn't be TOO hard to come up with a decent moveset for Water powers. What limits the devs here is the visuals for the most part.

    Indeed.

    Changing numbers around to achieve an effect for the mechanics of a power is pretty darn easy. Getting visual effects to look right for those mechanics and the theme of the powers, not so much.

    There's a lot of things that can be recycled for new powers though for minimal effort, like that launcher weapon ARGENT Soldiers use as well as some of the animations from there and from the Munitions' Gatling Gun. Those right there would make a great start on those Medical Gadgeteering powers I've been trying to drill on. The effects can even be ripped straight from the Support Drones and Biosteel Regeneration Ray. All that's left to do there are the mechanics, which I've already taken the liberty of detailing here.

    All they gotta do is plug everything in and I'll be happy. I even bet if they would let me, I'd do a pretty good job on the powers myself. The only thing they'd really have to work on are new models and textures for the powers. Ah well, all in due time I suppose. Would love to get out of relying on magic and mentalism for sustained healing.

    (If you haven't seen the commission of Turando by Alex Dai, check it out. The concept for the Nanite Sprayer is pretty much there.) :smile:
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I think that everything that can be expected from a Water powerset has already been done to death by the other elemental powersets.

    Expecting heavy knockback power by throwing huge waves of water at enemies? Hello Wind.

    Trap an enemy in a water sphere as a hold? Hello Ice.

    Make a upward fountain of water to throw an enemy vertically into the air as a knock up? Hi Force / Wind.

    Have water "drown" the enemy as a form of DoT with relevant tick damage? Fire already has established itself as a DoT set.

    Another problem is that Ice is technically a Water powerset anyway.

    I see little point in having a Water powerset. I don't see it bringing anything new to the Elemental framework in general other than just the visuals.

    In the meantime, Wind's visual effects are the closest to what Water effects would look like. If there's a desire to create a Water power themed hero then that's what I'd go for.
  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 581 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jennymachx wrote: »
    I think that everything that can be expected from a Water powerset has already been done to death by the other elemental powersets.

    Expecting heavy knockback power by throwing huge waves of water at enemies? Hello Wind.

    Trap an enemy in a water sphere as a hold? Hello Ice.

    Make a upward fountain of water to throw an enemy vertically into the air as a knock up? Hi Force / Wind.

    Have water "drown" the enemy as a form of DoT with relevant tick damage? Fire already has established itself as a DoT set.

    Another problem is that Ice is technically a Water powerset anyway.

    I see little point in having a Water powerset. I don't see it bringing anything new to the Elemental framework in general other than just the visuals.

    In the meantime, Wind's visual effects are the closest to what Water effects would look like. If there's a desire to create a Water power themed hero then that's what I'd go for.

    I could maybe see it being a sort of "buildup" power set. Lots of little self-buffs with various effects, starts out slow but then becomes a tidal wave.
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  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I recall the reason cited for not wanting to do water was lack of satisfactory fluid simulation to make the powers look good.
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  • thebuckeyethebuckeye Posts: 814 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    You guys know there's more to "busting a myth" than just saying you don't believe it, right? :wink:

    Please show your work
    . :biggrin:

    I think Adam Savage has said it better and its something like this...

    5150bec0d55a5.jpg
  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,799 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    To be honest, I really don't like those guys. The experiments they set up are often terrible, badly executed and don't come close to proving what they say they are.

    That said, it's fun to watch them blow #%&( up once in a while. :tongue:
    'Dec out

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  • serpinecohserpinecoh Posts: 353 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jennymachx wrote: »
    I see little point in having a Water powerset. I don't see it bringing anything new to the Elemental framework in general other than just the visuals.
    I endorse bringing new visuals to the Elemental framework without adding anything new numerically to the game, whether it requires new copies of the powers to have the animations baked into or is just a configuration option on the powers screen.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    serpinecoh wrote: »
    I endorse bringing new visuals to the Elemental framework without adding anything new numerically to the game, whether it requires new copies of the powers to have the animations baked into or is just a configuration option on the powers screen.

    I don't. IMO it has to have some sort of mechanic to set it apart from the other Elemental sets. If not I don't see why they should bother wasting development time and resources if the only difference is entirely visual.

    When it comes to customization, powers aren't like costumes where the only thing that matters is visuals. There has to be a practical point to the powerset since you know, actual gameplay is entirely dependent on mechanics. As of current each powerset in its entirety has something to set it apart from ever other powerset. I'd rather not see a powerset that's a complete carbon copy of another.

    Also, Ice is Water. It makes no sense to have two different powersets of the same element when every other element each have just one powerset each. That would be unfair.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,698 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jennymachx wrote: »
    Also, Ice is Water. It makes no sense to have two different powersets of the same element when every other element each have just one powerset each. That would be unfair.

    It's just not the same! It doesn't feel the same :C

    Solid Water vs Liquid Water

    Many games Treat Water and Ice as completely different Elements, some other put them in the same Family!
    Some Videogames make Water Spells be both Offensive and Healing/Support spells while Ice Defensive

    I personally would like to have Water powerframe in CO that Combines Support with Offense (like the Celestial Frameworks) along with Debuffs (Synergy with ELECTRICITY and Ice for obvious reasons )
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  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jennymachx wrote: »
    I don't. IMO it has to have some sort of mechanic to set it apart from the other Elemental sets. If not I don't see why they should bother wasting development time and resources if the only difference is entirely visual.

    When it comes to customization, powers aren't like costumes where the only thing that matters is visuals. There has to be a practical point to the powerset since you know, actual gameplay is entirely dependent on mechanics. As of current each powerset in its entirety has something to set it apart from ever other powerset. I'd rather not see a powerset that's a complete carbon copy of another.

    Also, Ice is Water. It makes no sense to have two different powersets of the same element when every other element each have just one powerset each. That would be unfair.

    Because the visuals of some powers just suck and for some of us, it is exactly the visuals that matter. If 2GM looked awful, I wouldn't have been using it since CO started. See that, visual and concept can go a long way in making people overlook some really terrible powers (2GM used to be considered terrible :p)

    Would love some alternate animations for powers!

    Also, water would likely be crushing not cold damage. If you don't consider that a big different, figure electricity and energy beam are both just energy blasts, but with different visuals and different damage types.
  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Back when I was Gold, I had a water themed character.

    After a few experiments, I decided on mostly Wind, with quicksand (muddy puddle!) and TK shield (which looks very watery). I think I also took bioarmor, which looks like a watery coating.

    Travel power: metallic ooze, colored blue. Looks a lot like changing into water and flowing around.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    avianos wrote: »
    It's just not the same! It doesn't feel the same :C

    Solid Water vs Liquid Water

    Many games Treat Water and Ice as completely different Elements, some other put them in the same Family!
    Some Videogames make Water Spells be both Offensive and Healing/Support spells while Ice Defensive

    I personally would like to have Water powerframe in CO that Combines Support with Offense (like the Celestial Frameworks) along with Debuffs (Synergy with ELECTRICITY and Ice for obvious reasons )

    If Ice were to get new powers focused on water effects then new powers should be added across the board for all Elemental sets. Otherwise I'm not in agreement.
    joybuzzerx wrote: »
    Because the visuals of some powers just suck and for some of us, it is exactly the visuals that matter. If 2GM looked awful, I wouldn't have been using it since CO started. See that, visual and concept can go a long way in making people overlook some really terrible powers (2GM used to be considered terrible :p)

    Visuals only go so far. 2GM at the very least was still a serviceable power in a crit-focused munitions build at the time before it got buffed. Not to mention it doubles up as both a block debuffer and ranged taunt for the appropriate tanky build. A power like Mini Mines on the other hand for e.g., while having a cool-looking effect, is so useless that the visuals sure as heck isn't going to convince me to waste a power slot on it.
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I recall the reason cited for not wanting to do water was lack of satisfactory fluid simulation to make the powers look good.

    Based on what I recall, I believe this is accurate.
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  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    They could make the water powers a heal/heal over time based tree. That would be something unique to the elemental powersets.
  • novaninja555novaninja555 Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    This is to forum handle jennymachx:


    Well water isn't just knock back. It has other qualities:

    Firstly, water is a knock DOWN NOT a knock BACK

    Secondly, water is a healing element

    Thirdly, there is a difference between the hit of a huge block of ice and a huge bucket of water. One feels like hulk just smashed in your face and the other feels like a tsunami just met you. NOT the same.

    Fourthly, a water and ice synergy would do well.

    Lastly, if you have watched avatar, you can see a huge difference between each element. Though ice is formed from water, it is not the main thing used. Liquid state is.


    So from this, I hope you can see that a water powerset is not just visuals but a good deal of change in effects as well.

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  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,531 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    avianos wrote: »
    I personally would like to have Water powerframe in CO that Combines Support with Offense (like the Celestial Frameworks) along with Debuffs (Synergy with ELECTRICITY and Ice for obvious reasons )

    This thread says "hi". :wink:
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I dont like Mythbusters anymore the Anger Walrus fired Tory and caused the robot guy and the red haired grin monster to rage quit :I
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    nepht wrote: »
    I dont like Mythbusters anymore the Anger Walrus fired Tory and caused the robot guy and the red haired grin monster to rage quit :I

    WHAT?!?


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  • foxypersonfoxyperson Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    This is not about functionality, but about customization options.

    CO's forte is nothing if not its top-notch customization. :)
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Well water isn't just knock back. It has other qualities:

    Firstly, water is a knock DOWN NOT a knock BACK

    Secondly, water is a healing element.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    This is to forum handle jennymachx:

    Well water isn't just knock back. It has other qualities:

    Firstly, water is a knock DOWN NOT a knock BACK

    It doesn't matter what kind of knock it is. The point I was making is that we already an elemental set that is focused on knocks, and that's Wind. Force is the other. I don't think we need a third elemental set that is also focused on knocks if there's ever a water set.
    Secondly, water is a healing element

    In the context of Chi, yes. Water is perceived to represent the natural flow of Chi energy according to Chinese culture, hence being associated with vitality and healing. The concept of Chi and transference of such energy is also an integral part of martial arts like Tai Chi (T'ai chi ch'uan). If water is ever to be considered a healing element, then it only makes sense if it has to do with martial arts powers in this game.

    It doesn't really make sense in a context that doesn't have to do with Chi and martial arts. I'm not really seeing it. You don't get your injuries suddenly healed just because I gave you a refreshing shower. Without any relation to Chi, water by itself on an elemental level isn't going to heal squat.
    Thirdly, there is a difference between the hit of a huge block of ice and a huge bucket of water. One feels like hulk just smashed in your face and the other feels like a tsunami just met you. NOT the same.

    Getting hit by either the Hulk in face or having a Tsunami wave slam against you are both equally devastating and can both result in instant death. I'm not sure if the difference in how much force is involved between both matters.
    Fourthly, a water and ice synergy would do well.

    Maybe, if they want to convert the Ice powerset to a general water-based one. Who knows? I never said anything about good or bad synergy. I only mentioned that I don't see a point in water having its own set. It means that the element of water would be getting two sets instead of one like the other elements do, unless they all each get additional sets to me. It doesn't seem fair to me if they don't.
    Lastly, if you have watched avatar, you can see a huge difference between each element. Though ice is formed from water, it is not the main thing used. Liquid state is.

    The concept of waterbenders in Avatar mainly borrows from that of Tai Chi. Again, Tai Chi is all about the flow of energy that is represented by water in its liquid state. This is why the liquid state of water is more commonly used during the series for waterbenders.

    There are plenty of times during the series during which Katara uses Ice anyway, and its usage has proven to be just as important and life-saving as using liquid water.
    foxyperson wrote: »
    This is not about functionality, but about customization options.

    CO's forte is nothing if not its top-notch customization. :)

    Unfortunately when it comes to powers, functionality precedes everything else. There's a reason why people are always figuring out ways to improve their builds and are selective about their power choices based on practicality and not visuals.

    Also, every powerset currently available has a practical point to them. Some are more practical. Others not. Doesn't matter. They all still have practical powers in them. If there's ever a new power set released, it only makes sense that it has to be practical and hopefully unique in its own way and not just all about visuals.
  • nextnametakennextnametaken Posts: 2,212 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I recall the reason cited for not wanting to do water was lack of satisfactory fluid simulation to make the powers look good.

    Yes, this was what I remember as well. That would be Gentleman Crush's opinion of what looks good though, wouldn't? Maybe new eyes could be satisfied. I'm not saying fire the guy, but maybe give him some cyborg eye implants.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jennymachx wrote: »
    In the context of Chi, yes. Water is perceived to represent the natural flow of Chi energy according to Chinese culture, hence being associated with vitality and healing. The concept of Chi and transference of such energy is also an integral part of martial arts like Tai Chi (T'ai chi ch'uan). If water is ever to be considered a healing element, then it only makes sense if it has to do with martial arts powers in this game.

    It doesn't really make sense in a context that doesn't have to do with Chi and martial arts. I'm not really seeing it. You don't get your injuries suddenly healed just because I gave you a refreshing shower. Without any relation to Chi, water by itself on an elemental level isn't going to heal squat.
    Which makes for an interesting AT concept... :D
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited October 2014
    The element of water is also a purifier in the Western tradition. Greeks also considered it a basis for all existence and Zoroastrians assigned it with all food and drinks.

    It kiiiinda could be used as a heal-over-time element in the game, because the world is not revolving around the far Eastern tradition, especially not in the Western game.

    But even better if it had debuff cleansing ability... Except this one is not very doable in CO since we don't have too many debuffer enemies ingame (I can recall only VIPER Brickbusters).
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The element of water is also a purifier in the Western tradition. Greeks also considered it a basis for all existence and Zoroastrians assigned it with all food and drinks.

    It kiiiinda could be used as a heal-over-time element in the game, because the world is not revolving around the far Eastern tradition, especially not in the Western game.

    Right. Water is generally considered the source of all life in various cultures.

    The thing is, when someone mentions water powers in a superhero-themed context, two things immediately come to my mind; Ice and Water manipulation that's both used offensively (projectiles, immobilization) or defensively (barriers, shields), or as a form of travel. That makes the most sense immediately. Healing or regenerative abilities that are somehow associated with water doesn't.

    Also, part of the reason of why I brought up Chi is because the game has already acknowledged the existence of it in the martial arts sets.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited October 2014
    The game also acknowledged existence of "classica" wizardry and alchemy in all sorcery powersets.

    None of them being really exclusive for the superhero genre, at least not more than they're for typical fantasy settings.

    What powers are or are not archetypical for comic book settings ceased to be very important long time ago.
  • chaoswolf820chaoswolf820 Posts: 734 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm fairly convinced there's no Water powerset because the devs are afraid of the folks out there who would "hilariously" change all the colors to yellow and make "The Urinator" or whatever.
  • gaarafrednorrispgaarafrednorrisp Posts: 504 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm fairly convinced there's no Water powerset because the devs are afraid of the folks out there who would "hilariously" change all the colors to yellow and make "The Urinator" or whatever.

    http://youtu.be/ipMagcF26fM?t=52s

    >.>
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm fairly convinced there's no Water powerset because the devs are afraid of the folks out there who would "hilariously" change all the colors to yellow and make "The Urinator" or whatever.

    A hero named The Urinator? Don't be ridiculous.

    [adds "Make nemesis named The Piddler when water powerset is released" to my to-do list]
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,698 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm fairly convinced there's no Water powerset because the devs are afraid of the folks out there who would "hilariously" change all the colors to yellow and make "The Urinator" or whatever.

    That's really Narrow thinging

    Beside people ALREADY did those concepts with with Force and Telepathy/Telekinesis >.>
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,698 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Even through I never played City of Heroes/Villains, I came across this Video
    Water Blast Animations

    Apparently CoX had Water powers, it would nice seeing those kind of powers in CO as well
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm fairly convinced there's no Water powerset because the devs are afraid of the folks out there who would "hilariously" change all the colors to yellow and make "The Urinator" or whatever.

    They already make "The Poopster" with ooze TP and that pooey earth power.
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