Justice Gear tokens and drop rates

thebizi · March 2014

I think drop rates are a bit too low for the justice gear tokens

I don't mind working towards something but it's not very fun having to grind the same rampage for hours upon hours and often times have nothing to show for it. Sometimes a person ends up waiting half an hour just to get into a group. Getting justice gear is fun. Idling around the Ren Cen for a rampage to start for half an hour is not, especially with how often one has to do it in order to get the needed tokens.

The low drop rate makes the process feel closer to tedious and further from fun. I'll still end up grinding as much as I need to in order to get my justice gear, but I would actually have MORE fun if I had to run each rampage LESS often.

cptmillennium · March 2014

At first I didn't mind the low drop rates, but I've had a couple of nights where I didn't get a single token in 3 hours of successful runs and that's disappointing.

I'm starting to agree more with the suggestion that the token requirement for Justice Gear should be increased by 10x, with 1-5 tokens dropping per run. I'd feel like every run contributed to my progress that way.

xcaligax · March 2014

I'd rather they give a weekly mission, where running the rampage a certain number of times garuntees a token reward from said mission when turned into the NPC that gave it. That way, the token is still garunteed, and the Justice Gear is still time gated as intended.

eiledon · March 2014

trailturtle wrote: »

As a side note, I'd like to clarify how the Justice Gear tokens work. They've got a form of diminishing returns, where once you get a token from a given Rampage, you've got less of a chance of getting another token. This dip goes away when the Rampages rotate, so the next time that Rampage comes up, you're back to the full chance.

So i guess the lesson is - when/if you get a token drop dont keep bashing away with the same character - swap to an alt and try again. or wait for next rotation - so effectively a weekly mission

chemk · March 2014

Never mind. I found it!: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=266141

crappynamerules · March 2014

I was never running again with the same char after getting a token in the first place. But the only thing I've gotten tokens from at all is sky command (which seems to give you one on your first go through with a character no matter what). The other ones I have not seen a token from. Ever.

jaybee37 · March 2014

xcaligax wrote: »

I'd rather they give a weekly mission, where running the rampage a certain number of times garuntees a token reward from said mission when turned into the NPC that gave it. That way, the token is still garunteed, and the Justice Gear is still time gated as intended.

This.

Random is not the way to go here. Most MMO's that use tokens have a set number of tokens that drop every time, and the items cost a certain number of them. MMO's that rely on random drops are ones that simply drop the gear. If the drops are meant to be time gated anyway, then maybe there should be a certain number you're guaranteed to get every cycle. That way there's a bare minimum that you earn from participating in a successful run.

xcaligax · March 2014

xcaligax wrote: »

I'd rather they give a weekly mission, where running the rampage a certain number of times garuntees a token reward from said mission when turned into the NPC that gave it. That way, the token is still garunteed, and the Justice Gear is still time gated as intended.

I just wanted to add in that the token can still drop as a reward as a rare chance. It still again, would keep the Justice Gear, time gated as designed.

flowcyto · March 2014

Yeah, some MMOs mix RNG loot systems w/ guaranteed ones, the latter being longer-term options for those w/ bad luck (or, in some games, those that want gearing alternatives to using dropped loot, as the guaranteed/token system gear isn't always the same). Works for those games, so it could work here.

svidovo · March 2014

Just now marked my 47th run this rotation on two characters with zero token drops. I left other games and came to this one because of the gear grind... guess it may be time to shop around again.

roughbearmattach · March 2014

You do realize that Justice Gear is the absolute "tops" gear . . . but only for some builds. Legion Gear is still better for many other builds.

Also, top gear (Justice or Legion) simply isn't needed for anything in this game. Your level 40 toon can rock out in Fire and Ice or elite-skill lairs using Heroic Gear.

xcaligax · March 2014

What makes those other MMORPGS different is that, in encounters like those, meaning raids and the like, no matter what drops, it always drops something that is rewarding that atleast somebody in the group can use. This is not the case for the rampages and the tokens.

The token drop is based on an RnG rate, that diminishes the more you get, and it's low to begin with. Aside from the token drops, no other gear, or useful items are dropped from these rampages. They could include many other things that would be considered useful. The problem is that they do not have a worthy drop table, for the effort involved.

My suggestion to include in the drop table:

BoP Devices that are exclusive to the nature of the type of Rampage. An example of this would be like a RimFire Burst type of Device that drops only in Fire and Ice, or a Device that uses a force detonation/gravity detonation type of attack like that in Gravitar. Again, these devices would be BoP, rare, and worth the effort.

Other things to include that could be rewarding would be passive questionite boosters, or even by a rare chance, a Retcon token.

Things like this, is what makes the effort to reward ratio of these rampages worth it. The developers need to put more thought into the drop tables. Currently this is their thought process on it:

"Tokens, costume unlocks, aura".

And not a single one of those items, actually improves your character's performance. The least they could do, is include as I said before, Devices that are exclusive to said rampages.

chaelk · March 2014

I have less time so only up to about about 30 Gravitar and about 15 F&I. but perfect score so far, no tokens.

Gravitar was nice one day and gave me 3 costumes in a row, skank wear, necklace and construction vest.

I'm now doin them, when I feel like it, betwen levelling alts adn trying to get rid of Anneikas embarrassing nemesis

fr0gurt · March 2014

I'm wondering if the token drop rate is being improperly modified by the Questionite diminishing returns curve. I have been noticing that the majority of my token drops have been on the first run of the day for a character (1500 Q). I started tracking drops to see if there was anything to my perception of the drop rate, or if I was biased because I tend to do more 1st runs of a rampage on a character than repeat runs.

Here's what I have so far:

Q 	Token	Costume	Both	None	Runs	T Rate	C Rate
1500	7	7	2	14	30	30%	30%
1200	1	2	0	7	10	10%	20%
900	1	2	0	5	8	13%	25%
600	1	0	0	3	4	25%	0%
300	1	1	0	3	5	20%	20%
Total	11	12	2	32	57	23%	25%

These results match my perception of the drop rate before I started tracking them. Not really sure if these are statistically significant results.

(Edit: Realized I had a couple of post-token runs in there that

(Edit: ... should be removed from tracking.)

chimerafreek · March 2014

A week ago I would have agreed with you...

..Until it came down to me only needing 4 more tokens from Gravitar. *6/6/2/6. or spent on one piece 4/4/0/4* Now I honestly don't care. Though for everyone else, yes. I think the drop rate needs a bit of a touch up *especially Gravitar who it seems drops her once 3k valued costume pieces more than the now coveted Token*

kamokami · March 2014

I'm fine with the drop rate. If there was content that needed Justice Gear then maybe....maaaybe I'd want to get it faster.

monaahiru · March 2014

I' don't matter token drop rate too but UNTIL Sky Carrier mission takes bit too long time.
All other are fine so far.

selphea · March 2014

The drop rate is fine from a macro standpoint, i.e. over the long run, assuming a very large number of runs over many rotations and an unlimited number of alts to avoid diminishing returns.

It's at the micro-level where problems start to show up, i.e. players without many alts or with limited time to play per rotation.

I won't say I want a higher droprate, but I do support a more granular reward interval that does not diminish. There's been suggestions to increase droprate and then increase Justice gear prices accordingly, and that's something I can get behind.

I don't mind droprates being raised 10x, including the chance of multiple token drops per character per run, and then lifting diminishing returns but making tokens bind to character. And then subsequently raise the component cost to 10x, i.e. costing 20 tokens per piece.

The RNG element can be reserved for super-luxury/novelty AH-able items - have one per Rampage.

LemInvasion has the Tsunami - worth 5000G in the AH at last check.
Sky Command could drop a new class of rare vehicle mod, much like Hi-Pan drops his eyes and Warlord drops DU cores. Perhaps a Tesla weapon? Could recycle Chain Lightning - Vehicles are missing a chain-type attack after all. Alternatively, another low tier Mk1 vehicle; a light one this time like a Hawkwing.
Gravitar could change her wardrobe for 2014 as I suggested for 2013, for a new set of ultra-rare costume drops
F&I could perhaps drop a CC-oriented vehicle weapon - again there's no vehicle weapon for CC. A PBAoE freeze perhaps (no 50ft radius please, 15-25 would be reasonable), or an AoE fire alternative to Gravity Pulse. Or or a new set of secondaries*

*There are a number of gaps that could be filled in terms of secondaries. An Armadillo-type set with flat 10% Dodge set bonus would be really nice for WotW builds. Alternatively, a Vigilante-like set with a distribution of perhaps 20/12/12 instead of 44 to primary superstat would be a nice alternative for characters looking for a more balanced stat distribution, but still behind dropped purples for characters looking for a single stat focus in one secondary (or other) stat.

The idea here is that you have to work to get power, but there's still an RNG element to motivate players to keep running - you get a chance to strike the lottery for novelty items - stuff that looks unique but does not necessarily give a definitive advantage over existing items. The Tsunami is a really good example of that. It has awful stats but goes for almost 10x the amount of an 8-slotter with 10% bonus, because it's rare and has a unique skin.

kamokami · March 2014

Yeah! To what Selphie said.

grengras · March 2014

I've mentioned it many times in game, and occasionally on these forums.

The biggest issue with the Rampage Token RNG system is that it has one of two bugs going on with it.

Either

A) The 'cycle' reset which returns your DR after getting a token is not resetting for all characters when the cycles reset.

Or

The DR for token drops is occurring regardless of whether or not you actually get a token.

If the bug is A then you can run that same character a thousand times and you'll never get that token if you haven't gotten it by the 10th run.

If the bug is B then a group of five people can run a single character and have one player be lucky enough to get token drops on run 1, 2, 3, and 4 while another gets no tokens at all on those first four runsl and regardless of the results they'll both have the exact same luck on run 5. Regardless, because of the way DR works you'll never get a token after the 10th run.

Tip of the story for players regardless of which bug is in place, do not run a single character more than 10 times. Change alts or give up until the next cycle.

In closing... What the hell were the coders thinking when they added DR to the code in the first place? Justice gear is Char locked when bought. You can't even change them to another character on the same account. So who the hell is being hurt by a person running a single char 100 times in a row rather than alting? This dumb as hell DR system ruins rampages for people with little gaming time and only a single character because it'll take them months to get anything. It ruins rampages for people with lots of gaming time because once they get a token there's no point in continuing. Furthermore it ruins rampages for _everyone_ because there will be less 'pops' of the rampage because fewer people will be wanting to join. Epic fail Cryptic / Perfect World.

aiqa · March 2014

selphea wrote: »

but making tokens bind to character

Overall I like your idea, but this part I am not so sure about.
At this time I am willing to use my healer, even a bunch of runs after she got her token on F&I, since small as it may be, I still have a chance at something useful.
But I am not really interrested in gearing my healer into hustice gear at all, so I wouldn't have any reason to use her for F&I aside from the alert being fun, or helping other people get their tokens. If there are more people who do that it might become much harder to find a balanced team.

crappynamerules · March 2014

So, what's being said, is that the diminishing chance of getting a token is applying even when you DON'T get one? That is beyond stupid. I can't even being to explain why, it should just be so obvious. Like why murder is bad.

jaazaniah1 · March 2014

I think I'm a fairly average player. Usually my builds are decent, if not 100% optimal. Gear is typically SCR with rank 6 mods mixed in with a few 7s. Usually one piece of purple vigilante secondary gear. I don't think I'm especially lucky/unlucky.

Over the first 36 days of the revamped Rampage Alerts I averaged about an hour a day doing Alerts (that's going through the rotation 3 times). With that time commitment I was able to accumulate enough tokens for a complete set of justice gear, with 10 extra tokens to spare. So well on my way to a second set. I probably would have had a few more, but during the first rotation Fire and Ice was new to me (and many others) and the missions were mostly failing. Once I got on to the Rampagers channel and was running with with well-made teams the success rate went way up, and so did the number of tokens I was getting.

So, for me, this wasn't very much of a grind and the token drop rate seemed reasonably fair (Cryptic does want to sell lock boxes so people get the drifter salvage for the gear, so it would make sense that they make the tokens reasonably accessible). Some days I'd get none. The next day I get 2 back to back on different toons. It seems much more feasible that I'll eventually be able to deck out all my level 40s with JG.

Only question now is whether it'll be worth getting SCR gear for new level 40s. First I'll have to spend ca. 6 days to get it, then have to pay out ca. 60K Q to unequip the mods once I have the JG. Maybe high end blues will suffice until the new guy gets his JG.

That's just my take. Your results may vary

therealdevcon · April 2014

Bumping this as this past cycle of Fire and Ice has been extremely frustrating for me and, judging by the conversations I had with quite a few people, some others.

I practically lost count of how many successful runs of F+I I was on the past 3 days and never a single token dropped for me, while I'm sitting on a pile of the other Justice Gear tokens that can't be used since the set can't be completed. Hell, one other player claimed he counted the number of times he ran the rampage and came up with 67 runs.

67. Runs. No token.

I tried switching characters in hopes the DR would be kinder to them, and got nothing.

The droprates are quite probably borked and need to be looked at. If not, then an alternative solution really should be considered (Caliga's idea of the weekly mission is one that I feel would be appropriate)

chaosdrgnz43 · April 2014

I wish the droprate would make at least one person in the team will surely get a token. At least that will have a certainty. As for me, I only get 1 token every Rampage in 3 days at best with my main and alt.

cannotdeny · April 2014

therealdevcon wrote: »

Bumping this as this past cycle of Fire and Ice has been extremely frustrating for me and, judging by the conversations I had with quite a few people, some others.

I practically lost count of how many successful runs of F+I I was on the past 3 days and never a single token dropped for me, while I'm sitting on a pile of the other Justice Gear tokens that can't be used since the set can't be completed. Hell, one other player claimed he counted the number of times he ran the rampage and came up with 67 runs.

67. Runs. No token.

I tried switching characters in hopes the DR would be kinder to them, and got nothing.

The droprates are quite probably borked and need to be looked at. If not, then an alternative solution really should be considered (Caliga's idea of the weekly mission is one that I feel would be appropriate)

That'd be me - After you left I've ran more and came up at a whopping 74 or so. Ended up making a ticket as a bug report too.

Absolutely ridiculous. Meanwhile, for Sky Command I got a token on my 3rd run. Jesus christ.

Fire and Ice is astonishingly bad. I hate having to form a private queue each and every time, and it stresses me out having to spam zone and the rampagers channel.

After all is said and done, what do I have to show for it? A bunch of worthless costumes that won't sell on the market, 7 extra action figures I can't even vendor, and 42k worth of pure questionite ore signifying the ridiculous number of times I've had to run the worst rampage. (In my opinion at least. I just hate Fire and Ice, I wonder why.)

sammiefighter · April 2014

Highly Inconsistant here results here too.
DR is didn't cycle? Nope mabey the DR is 2 cycles? No now seems to be per character?

Either way, grats to people who "got theirs" seems the rampage system is cooling off quick. This multi token plus DR system is not looking maintanable with the population levels. Just not enough people on consistantly who want to do Rampage X, with less and less every cycle.. Sooner or later it will break, and break quicker every cycle. Are the funds of Drifter slavage enough to make Cryptic "look back" or will this join the "abandoned content" club? Time will tell.

yinjeigh · May 2014

I don't see why they didn't just add in a Silver Champions Recognition conversion at the Drifter. Cash in maybe 50 SCR per token, since it's the next grind-able tier above Heroics. That way, people who don't have time to farm Rampages can still work towards a sure-thing. Having to rely on a successful group to get the gear tokens was probably not the greatest idea. If it's a slow day, and you're puggin it, you're gambling with the RNG AND the random alert team.

I feel like it would have been a much simpler way, and would not have sucked the fun out of Rampages. I find that I hate doing them sometimes. I only run F+I as my healer, I ran 20+successful runs last rotation. 0 tokens. I haven't even touched it this rotation, because I feel like it's a waste of time.

crypticbuxom · May 2014

Players whined and complained when some suggested that there be a way to farm for a sure token through the final mission in a UNITY chain. They weren't content with methods that would validate the rest of the game.

chalupaoffury · May 2014

I ran gravitar for about 6 hours the other night without a drop. Yeah, it's low.

sinistro1978 · May 2014

therealdevcon wrote: »

Bumping this as this past cycle of Fire and Ice has been extremely frustrating for me and, judging by the conversations I had with quite a few people, some others.

I practically lost count of how many successful runs of F+I I was on the past 3 days and never a single token dropped for me, while I'm sitting on a pile of the other Justice Gear tokens that can't be used since the set can't be completed. Hell, one other player claimed he counted the number of times he ran the rampage and came up with 67 runs.

67. Runs. No token.

I tried switching characters in hopes the DR would be kinder to them, and got nothing.

The droprates are quite probably borked and need to be looked at. If not, then an alternative solution really should be considered (Caliga's idea of the weekly mission is one that I feel would be appropriate)

I've noticed this with Fire and Ice too. First time running it with my characters it took a few tries (2-5 times) and I got the tokens. Now F&I is back (2nd cycle). 12 attempts with one character and 9 on the other has resulted in zero tokens. Either it's really bad RNG or my characters didn't reset. If it is RNG, than the drop rate is pretty low and I just got lucky the first time around. Personally, I feel the drop rate should be higher for the first drop. To encourage players to keep queing Rampages, I think they need to add more rewards for turning in tokens besides Justice Gear. I agree Rampages are going to phase out when most of the population is geared up, which will leave newbies or new alts struggling to get ahead.

crappynamerules · May 2014

It's nice some have been so lucky. But not everyone is, and you can't go "drop rates are fine" simply because you got yours. This past Gravitar go-through, I ran it 13 times in one day. Each with a different character. No tokens. A bunch of copies of the same costume pieces I either already had unlocked or didn't want (the same that don't sell for much anymore because, well, other people have the same wonderful luck I do, so the market is flooded with them).

I honestly don't understand the logic of the crap rates. This is a game where subbers have tons of alts, due to getting a slot whenever a character hits 40. If the rates are decent, then people won't just quit once they get the justice gear on one character. But if the rates suck, they are more likely to just throw their hands in the air and quit, and not run the rampages at all.

jaazaniah1 · May 2014

I'm 16 tokens in to my 3rd set of JG. For me the drop rate hasn't been bad. There was even a time I got tokens on back to back runs with the same character. What slows me down the most is waiting for the queues to pop. Some days there are awfully long waits for SC and LI. I'd probably have a complete 3rd set by now if they popped a bit more often.

I understand that those 2 can take awhile to run through, can be boring if you have a bunch of vehicles all decked out properly, and can be frustrating when, after all that time, you don't get a token drop. So, lots of people have given up on them. Since PWE wants people to spend money buying Zen in order to buy the drifter salvage necessary to buy the JG you'd think they'd want to either adjust the lengths of SC and LI so you can get to the end more quickly (like end SC after the megadestroid goes down) or somewhat improve their token drop rates in order to get people to spend more real money. Personally, I'd rather spend money on gear for my real hero than buying vehicles and vehicle gear. Not sure if I'm typical in that way, but they'd get more money from me through JG than they ever will for vehicles.

sinistro1978 · June 2014

Seems lately ques are taking a long time. Even on a Saturday afternoon I've been waiting well over 30 minutes for Fire and Ice to pop. It's kind of discouraging waiting that long for Rampage pops, the chance of getting a fail/successful group, then having RNG and the low drop rate give you the finger in the end. Either increase the drop rate, or increase the incentive (additional rewards, ect) for queing Rampages .

jaazaniah1 · June 2014

Last night I managed to join a group of fellow Rampagers and we cranked through 6 runs in an hour (before I had to leave). OTHO, this morning I couldn't get a PUG to pop in 30 minutes. So, very time of the day and situation dependent.

sinistro1978 wrote: »

Seems lately ques are taking a long time. Even on a Saturday afternoon I've been waiting well over 30 minutes for Fire and Ice to pop. It's kind of discouraging waiting that long for Rampage pops, the chance of getting a fail/successful group, then having RNG and the low drop rate give you the finger in the end. Either increase the drop rate, or increase the incentive (additional rewards, ect) for queing Rampages .

sinistro1978 · June 2014

gradii wrote: »

wierd, gravitar throws diamonds at me like crazy. Sky Command? oh god whole other story.

Lemurian Invasion and F&I are usually the worst for me. I think why Gravitar is decent is because it pops frequently. Sky Command and Lemurian Invasion are usually the ones I see que times take the longest on. F&I can be bad too if terrible pugs are queing for the day. Waited almost 40 minutes tonight for a Sky Command pop, just for it to be a failure. At this rate I'll probably not get my 2 Sky Command tokens in for the week. Unfortunate considering it's the only ones I need for my next Justice piece. :mad:

oddbirdy · July 2014

I've still never gotten a token from any of these Rampages (but my time available is limited, so that's no surprise.) Are they transferable from character to character, or must you try to get them with the character you want to obtain gear for? Looking at the drop rates, if they were transferable, it seems like the best strategy would be to simply run it once a day from each lv 40 you've got.

tasittler · July 2014

oddbirdy wrote: »

I've still never gotten a token from any of these Rampages (but my time available is limited, so that's no surprise.) Are they transferable from character to character, or must you try to get them with the character you want to obtain gear for? Looking at the drop rates, if they were transferable, it seems like the best strategy would be to simply run it once a day from each lv 40 you've got.

They are account bound and can be traded to your other characters via your hideout shared bank space. If you need a hideout, there are some ARC codes that will give 2 freebie hideouts.

oddbirdy · July 2014

tasittler wrote: »

They are account bound and can be traded to your other characters via your hideout shared bank space. If you need a hideout, there are some ARC codes that will give 2 freebie hideouts.

Thank you for telling me that! I was unaware of that second ARC code. :biggrin:

dontask · July 2014

I'm trying to put these codes in- but I can't find the place to put them in the ARC client. The instructions seem out of date or something.

Justice Gear tokens and drop rates

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