This. This game should not be changed just for the good of some WoW fans who came here. :rolleyes:
(or whatever crappy MMO they came from)
This game shouldn't be changed because two people say that it would be a WoW clone when it wouldn't.
No matter how you dress it up or try to hide it, the trinity still exists, even if on the individual character. You still need to hold up against aggro, and survive via some kind of heal or regen and then have enough DPS to take your enemies down.
This will never change, and it's not enforced to have only a specific type of player, or build to manage this. Some people however do prefer to lean to a particular end of the trio, and this is also not a bad thing. Saying that you don't want the trinity means that you'd rather not play the game period.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
regarding the OP's signature. yes I know its off topic.
300+ ping, sounds perfectly normal for me. MIne just tested as 375. I don't think I've ever had it below 300
Well not too long ago, I had a more stable 300 ping which for the most part only had the subtle delay of about 1 sec for anything to register, now it can fluctuate between subtle delay to lag spiking and rubber banding which makes it even more frustrating with dieing from a power being delayed or not registering a hit to struggle with movement and playing at all, short from a server in Australia or moving closer to US Server, even plausible upgrade to this countries infrastructure might help, but other then that I can expect certain things aren't going to change.
As for this Topic and the Survey, that's nice, I'm just concerned where this is all heading, a platform on which to bring in end game content or 40+ level cap or to break the game and segregate the masses even further, so whatevs, we'll see what happens.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I ran plenty of content and succeeded in that game where we had no healing or tanking.
Just saying.
Yeah, okay, just because you ran plenty of content where you had no healing or tanking, it didn't mean that healing and tanking didn't exist. Just because you experienced teams that deviated away from the traditional trinity doesn't mean that the game avoided being a trinity.
If you want to get all technical, debuffs, buffs and control are mechanics that have long existed since early RPG games that were based around the trinity. Want the best example? D&D clerics and mages.
Yeah, okay, just because you ran plenty of content where you had no healing or tanking, it didn't mean that healing and tanking didn't exist. Just because you experienced teams that deviated away from the traditional trinity doesn't mean that the game avoided being a trinity.
If you want to get all technical, debuffs, buffs and control are mechanics that have long existed since early RPG games that were based around the trinity. Want the best example? D&D clerics and mages.
Just saying.
Hey Fudge, more shots for you. Drink up!
In CoX control/buff/debuff based characters were gods. Almost perma holding was pretty OP. I didn't try incarnates but the content including TFs was pretty easy.
In CoX players almost never died, and it was perceived like a big failure. In CO, being defeated is not that big of a deal except for the lockouts. Wowlike and CoXlike are 2 approaches, they should choose one but I don't think it is good to stay in the middle.
In CoX control/buff/debuff based characters were gods. Almost perma holding was pretty OP. I didn't try incarnates but the content including TFs was pretty easy.
In CoX players almost never died, and it was perceived like a big failure. In CO, being defeated is not that big of a deal except for the lockouts. Wowlike and CoXlike are 2 approaches, they should choose one but I don't think it is good to stay in the middle.
TFs pretty easy? I was a devoted task force leader for years on CoX mainly blue side but also red side. Always in character, always efficiently ran, and never over long nor failed. But Easy? Every time I ran them I recruited straight from the LFG panel, looking for first players in the specific lvl range who based on thier info would indicate if a TF running X amount of time would be something they wanted to do.
The single most common response, from even very recognized server characters even max lvl or well known to be power houses, would be TFs are to hard and take to long without a perfect group. Even in CoX Wowtardism was strong and hard to break the hold of.
Virtually every TF I ever ran would have at least one person who never ran any TF before, and each time at the end they would be like wow that was alot of fun, and not nearly as long and boring as people made it out to be, mostly people on the forums who never played TFs or only tried them in year one when most players still where learning the ropes.
But it was also that I took my TF leadership role quite seriously, My Main TF/exemp specced characters all had stealth and recall friend, the one who didnt I was pretty good at working with assemble team vet powers here and there, and my global friends list was filled to overflowing with people who after running just one TF with me wanted to only run them with me from then on out. Pulling of regular Synapse TFs in under an hour, hess's in under 30 minutes etc all had that affect on those who didnt like to have to sit at a pc for hours in a row.
Nor was death that rare, at least if you didnt molly coddle the team. I would frequently not bother getting so called healers or tanks for my TF groups, now and then a paticularly inept side kick caliber of a player would join and grow frustrated eating dirt when another player of the same AT and similiar power sets would tank ahead solo.
As another in this thread mentioned, players in CoX learned and earned their places in the spectrum of super power. Not everyone was cut out to be the best. And unlike in CO there it was something to take some pride in.
Some people are just born Guy Gardners rather then hal jordans.
Not so in CO here anyone with a basic grasp of balancing their offense and defense can and will dominate all the content. Nothing wrong with that as CO is meant to be a far more casual game.
I wish CO had been CoX2, but it was clearly never going to be from the day of live launch. For those like me who will forever miss CoX Co is at best 20 dollar wannabe absinth rather then the 200$ a bottle kings gold.
In CoX control/buff/debuff based characters were gods. Almost perma holding was pretty OP. I didn't try incarnates but the content including TFs was pretty easy.
In CoX players almost never died, and it was perceived like a big failure. In CO, being defeated is not that big of a deal except for the lockouts. Wowlike and CoXlike are 2 approaches, they should choose one but I don't think it is good to stay in the middle.
I have no clue what game you played, but it wasn't CoX. Control characters weren't good, Fire/Kin was good. Even then, control characters (the few that were viable) needed specifically -knock on their roots and to be /kin. Without IOs, something that the majority didn't have, actually BEING anything short of a bad defender/corruptor was by and large the norm. The two primary exceptions (earth and fire) only got that way because they either had an obnoxious amount of control (Earth) or had massive damage (fire). Nevermind that unless you were a dominator with massive recharge, your contributions to SVs and above was "Look menacing"
As for the trinity, you're also forgetting that every single great support set had healing to some capacity. Dark had the best rez in the game and insane amounts of AOE healing, Kin had great healing, Rad had AM + ghetto healing and a rez, and Empathy had a ton of healing on itself. The actual great support sets that lacked healing (Sonic, Cold and FF) were often ignored or considered bad because having a heal was actually kinda important in CoX.
Besides that, it's rather insulting you talk about rarity of deaths because that assumes you ran with either nothing but Arachnos characters (softcap group), Scrappers, or endeavored to be softcapped yourself. A large amount of the Incarnate Trials and the like (including Preaetoria) were created explicitly with the new softcap power curve in mind, which in turn created an awful lack of balance between the haves and have nots. If you didn't notice, soft capping dodge was a thing in CO until recently, where they rightly nerfed it into oblivion to preserve balance.
Please drop the rose colored glasses and stop speaking in generalities. CoX was a fun game, but it had some very serious problems that contradict your points.
I ran plenty of content and succeeded in that game where we had no healing or tanking.
Just saying.
I just need to say one thing that many people get wrong about what the holy trinity is. Its not, Tank, DPS, and Heals, its Tank, DPS, and Support. Buffs, Debuffs, CC are all support. So CoH was still a trinity game.
CO is in fact a trinity game. There are no mechanics here that do not in some way conform to the trinity. Even more traditional trinity MMOs have hybrid characters, some of which can tank, heal, and dps all in the same build.
Fact is that we should be talking about CO not CoH. They are not the same.
I personally think that CO should stick to the way it was created, there is a reason there are team only heals and threat mechanics with threat wipe. I wouldn't really see CO as a trinity game HOWEVER it was designed so you NEED some way to soak damage, this doesn't have to be a tank but there needs to be something there. It is also designed so that having stronger team heals will sacrifice damage, you don't need a healer but if you are going to max your damage out to get things done faster you sure as hell aren't going to have all that amazing heals.
CO was designed as a team game with many ways you can help your team including controlling / debuffing / buffing.
If you are going to take the tank out of a team you need to have some sort of replacement, and this is how things should be. Don't you think however that it is still sounding trinity like?
You have something to soak the damage.
You have something to deal the damage.
You have something to heal the damage.
It is basically just the way MMO's work. GW2 didn't remove the trinity system, they even said it themselves when it was in beta. They simply changed where the damage soak was coming from, and where the healing was coming from.
TFs pretty easy? I was a devoted task force leader for years on CoX mainly blue side but also red side. Always in character, always efficiently ran, and never over long nor failed. But Easy? Every time I ran them I recruited straight from the LFG panel, looking for first players in the specific lvl range who based on thier info would indicate if a TF running X amount of time would be something they wanted to do.
The single most common response, from even very recognized server characters even max lvl or well known to be power houses, would be TFs are to hard and take to long without a perfect group. Even in CoX Wowtardism was strong and hard to break the hold of.
Virtually every TF I ever ran would have at least one person who never ran any TF before, and each time at the end they would be like wow that was alot of fun, and not nearly as long and boring as people made it out to be, mostly people on the forums who never played TFs or only tried them in year one when most players still where learning the ropes.
But it was also that I took my TF leadership role quite seriously, My Main TF/exemp specced characters all had stealth and recall friend, the one who didnt I was pretty good at working with assemble team vet powers here and there, and my global friends list was filled to overflowing with people who after running just one TF with me wanted to only run them with me from then on out. Pulling of regular Synapse TFs in under an hour, hess's in under 30 minutes etc all had that affect on those who didnt like to have to sit at a pc for hours in a row.
Nor was death that rare, at least if you didnt molly coddle the team. I would frequently not bother getting so called healers or tanks for my TF groups, now and then a paticularly inept side kick caliber of a player would join and grow frustrated eating dirt when another player of the same AT and similiar power sets would tank ahead solo.
As another in this thread mentioned, players in CoX learned and earned their places in the spectrum of super power. Not everyone was cut out to be the best. And unlike in CO there it was something to take some pride in.
Some people are just born Guy Gardners rather then hal jordans.
Not so in CO here anyone with a basic grasp of balancing their offense and defense can and will dominate all the content. Nothing wrong with that as CO is meant to be a far more casual game.
I wish CO had been CoX2, but it was clearly never going to be from the day of live launch. For those like me who will forever miss CoX Co is at best 20 dollar wannabe absinth rather then the 200$ a bottle kings gold.
I did not mean to offend anybody. I played CoX before F2P, which I think it could be considered the golden age of that game. Most people I knew where using IOs and we ran without problem a lot of content including high level TFs. At that time, the players I knew felt pretty super and where worry more about enjoying game as groups. It was possible in a group for one or two player to underperform since the others where able to make up for it.
In wow raiding,at least until WotLK ulduar, (talking at progression time, and early farming time) an underperforming player out of 10, could basically wipe the whole raid over and over.
From what I read from other players, CoX started to go a bit more toward the raiding style of wow and other games, which mixed with the f2p players unable to use IOs(the very main reason I didn't go for the f2p in CoX) alienated some players(the quantity, as usual, is debatable)
what I tried to said in my last post is that both approaches are valid, but CO should opt for one and not be so in the middle of them.
Unlike CoH, line of sight is actually viable. If I see an animation for a power beginning, I can still duck behind a traffic light, car or most any obstacle and be saved. In fact, there is big aggro decay for doing that.
Remember... council Gatling guns still hurting you after the enemy is dead.
The secret to using crowd control in alerts is to run ahead and use it on the next group of NPCs that the rest of the players in your group haven't begun attacking yet o3o
TFs pretty easy? I was a devoted task force leader for years on CoX mainly blue side but also red side. Always in character, always efficiently ran, and never over long nor failed. But Easy? Every time I ran them I recruited straight from the LFG panel, looking for first players in the specific lvl range who based on thier info would indicate if a TF running X amount of time would be something they wanted to do.
The single most common response, from even very recognized server characters even max lvl or well known to be power houses, would be TFs are to hard and take to long without a perfect group. Even in CoX Wowtardism was strong and hard to break the hold of.
Virtually every TF I ever ran would have at least one person who never ran any TF before, and each time at the end they would be like wow that was alot of fun, and not nearly as long and boring as people made it out to be, mostly people on the forums who never played TFs or only tried them in year one when most players still where learning the ropes.
But it was also that I took my TF leadership role quite seriously, My Main TF/exemp specced characters all had stealth and recall friend, the one who didnt I was pretty good at working with assemble team vet powers here and there, and my global friends list was filled to overflowing with people who after running just one TF with me wanted to only run them with me from then on out. Pulling of regular Synapse TFs in under an hour, hess's in under 30 minutes etc all had that affect on those who didnt like to have to sit at a pc for hours in a row.
Nor was death that rare, at least if you didnt molly coddle the team. I would frequently not bother getting so called healers or tanks for my TF groups, now and then a paticularly inept side kick caliber of a player would join and grow frustrated eating dirt when another player of the same AT and similiar power sets would tank ahead solo.
As another in this thread mentioned, players in CoX learned and earned their places in the spectrum of super power. Not everyone was cut out to be the best. And unlike in CO there it was something to take some pride in.
Some people are just born Guy Gardners rather then hal jordans.
Not so in CO here anyone with a basic grasp of balancing their offense and defense can and will dominate all the content. Nothing wrong with that as CO is meant to be a far more casual game.
I wish CO had been CoX2, but it was clearly never going to be from the day of live launch. For those like me who will forever miss CoX Co is at best 20 dollar wannabe absinth rather then the 200$ a bottle kings gold.
Wow. What server was that? Because I ran TFs nonstop on Virtue, when asked the plan, I told them, run in kill things, move to the next group, and TFs generally went very very fast.
Only those looking for 15min TFs were disappointed (and that was generally ITF Speed Runners). Most thought 30-60mins was fine.
You've not seen good crowd control. If it breaks when the mobs take even a small amount of damage I don't see it as being useful. Maybe when your alone, but not in a team, because i'll just rush in, lead-tempest/avalange/lighting storm/conflag ect and boom, they are out of it instantly. And the mobs you can lock down are often weak anyways, so thats why I consider it crappy.
Meh if you have a 12 second stun then you can make the mobs not even be able to land a hit on anyone. Ego sleep is great on your own or if you have people in your team that are working with it like in other games where you leave a few mobs slept until you disposed of another mob. The problem is that CO is so easy anyway it isn't really necessary to do this.
Problem is, stuns shouldn't be the only form of crowd control that works and you shouldn't have to sacrifice so much that you'd be useless in a team in other situations, simply due to the fact that the things you'd want to stun are often just unaffected. Also sleep tends to mean "oh everyone, use single targets, and hold back", not "take the initiative". If a team is dying from one other mob attacking them, they are a very, very weak team.
Which is why I said "The problem is that CO is so easy anyway it isn't really necessary to do this."
The thing is that roots can also work well in rotation with stuns using manipulator. You can see this working well in PvP where you can rotate holds / roots to keep the other player locked down half the time. In PvE I'd say root is only really "a great thing to have" if you use something such as the overseer spec's 'trapped' which I have found to work rather effectively. You can of course also use it on a couple of the holds. By the way most of the hold powers are only really super awful because they are self roots / 50 ft / 2 second charge and activate time holds that probably wont do much good for the team anyway. But that is more of a balancing issue.
It's called over-specialization, if your having to do that to make something useful something is fundamentally wrong.
Which is a big problem with content in CO. If they really wanted to make the PvE in CO great I would love to see multiple ways that one thing could be done depending on powers and the like. For example a master of the mind could mind control some people to help with the mission or a brick could break through a wall at one point to save time. That kinda thing, just an idea CC could come into that in some way.
this is why no particular aspect of the game should be only for certain builds. the game is a game about customization, forcing any kind of mechanic into an over specialized niche will be counterproductive.
It obviously makes sense for those who heavily invest in one or two areas to be better at those areas, but please, lets not make it impossible or even hard to have a character with varied abilities!
You realise how much you contradict yourself here right?
Let me tell you why. I actually agree with you on the fact they should make any choice of powers viable and any style on gameplay viable however the only way to make this possible is by limiting gameplay in certain areas. I know that sounds sort of random but let me use this as an example. Have you noticed how everyone has conviction / ego surge / MD / unbreakable / MSA / STR CON INT / and a hand full of about 10 different powers in "PvP" usually actually PvE'ers? The reason is there is no sacrifice. Taking every single "good thing" in the game doesn't take anything away from another area, but isn't this giving less choice to the player? Yes technically it is HOWEVER it makes more builds viable when compared against each other and allows the game to see many, many, many more builds used by people. Like you wouldn't see the clone army everywhere instead you would see the rebels creating some new and creative way to complete content.
If they make crowd control powers work without specialization, then everyone will have them because you'll be able to turn yourself into an effective crowd controller just by grabbing a crowd control power without having to sacrifice anything else.
It'll do wonders to help homogenize us all into the exact same build.
Yes, the need to specialize to make things effective does in fact promote build diversity.
Yes, the need to specialize to make things effective does in fact promote build diversity.
I completely agree with this. When a system is made so that you can pick something with no consequences everyone eventually finds the best combination and flocks to that.
you are taking what I said, ignoring half of it, and twisting the rest out of context.
bravo.
THAT is what I said.
And you also said.
this is why no particular aspect of the game should be only for certain builds. the game is a game about customization, forcing any kind of mechanic into an over specialized niche will be counterproductive.
FYI foxi didn't truly aim that at you. Also I said almost the same sort of thing that he said, did you read anything I said? Probably not, should of kept it to the point like what foxi does.
Yeah but when you force someone to sacrifice to much you end up with, ironically, less diversity to. It's not all black and white.
Some people prefer something that does more then one thing and they like to do both reasonably well, when you make it so people can only do well at one thing you end up with pidgin-holed roles that are as problematic as the holy trinity.
I'm not saying I want people to be stuck in situations like that. I agree that's a bad thing. Our current problem is that everyone can do multiple things very well without much effort at all and no sacrifice compared to someone who did decide to specialize in only one area. As long as there would be a good balance I'd be happy, but many suggestions I see would lead to another situation like we currently have.
Atm the only "well rounded" passive is maybe aura of primal majesty, but the dodge nerf made it pretty useless for most practical applications due to any lack of direct mitigation anymore.
I'm not trying to sound hostile, but tell that to everyone who is still using AoPM. It is still widely used, and is still an upper tier passive in both PvE and PvP.
Only when you have legion gear already with dodge/avoidance and still stack evasive maneuvers. Without stacking dodging still I find non-defensive passives to just be to weak anymore.
You're very, very wrong here.
You need to get strength primary and go pure CON, AOPM will take you up to the cap on the other super stats STR and INT giving you good energy still by giving END and REC and great ranged damage still by giving ego and if you do end up using vindicator mastery then you get damage from strength too. Strength will also give knock resist which isn't just amazing in PvP but is really useful in PvE too. In your gear you just slot defence body with 2 impacts to get loads of defense. Then you have 2 options, you can get guardian and warden for loads of offense or you can stack defense up more and get 5% more crit severity by using vindicator and warden.
Yay for diversity of builds...
You want an offensive passive to be tanky too? You can try doing the exact same settup and you'll be fine. Infact another way you could go is using int primary with both MD and unbreakable which you can just rotate them without really having any gap and you can be defensive with everything. If you find a way to rotate them without any gap using LR or invuln you'll find out just how broken it currently is especially with invuln which calculates the damage wrong while using unbreakable currently. Fact is that things need to hit over like 1,600 damage on you or they'll heal your unbreakable and with MD on you get like 50% flat damage decreased technically if you have no dodge / avoidance stacked.
Not to mention AoPM bringing dex up to a soft cap on criticals, giving you insane crit chance when combined with specs. And because of it increasing superstats so high, your crit severity can go through the roof. Then we can consider its ridiculous healing potential from increasing superstats and being in the balanced role, or even the option to go in support role. Combine that already high base healing with its crit chance and severity, you get nothing short of a self-sufficient nightmare when built with the rest of the stuff people normally do that Imp listed above.
Things are not common because they do not work. They're overused for a reason.
you are taking what I said, ignoring half of it, and twisting the rest out of context.
bravo.
THAT is what I said.
Technically, I ignored everything you said and twisted nothing out of context... did you notice that I didn't quote you or even mention you in my post?
Your blowing just about everything I said out of proportion in this post. I'm not asking for people using offensive passives to suddenly become tanky, just a bit more survivable within reason. And i've seen that MD/Unbreakable arguement before, thats another issue entirely and i've seen many people blame the wrong things for that, even. Again, blowing things out of proportion.
He never said you were asking offensive passives to be tanky. The question was asked rhetorically for the purpose of the building examples he was giving.
i.e.
Check out this OxyClean and how good it cleans. You want your whites to be whiter? Just use OxyClean!
Actually, that's backwards. It's not AOPM making those other powers OP, those other powers are what make AOPM OP.
You can tell, because you can make a build where you use those other powers with another passive, and they continue to be powerful. Now make an AOPM build without those other powers...congrats, you're a Grimiore.
One thing being overpowered because of a bunch of other things doesn't make sense. It's like you want all of those things nerfed to account for AoPM, it's a flat arguement that doesn't have anything to back it up. All those abilities having to be nerfed because of ONE ability doesn't make sense when that ONE ability either is overpowered with them OR makes them overpowered. Fact of the matter is, AoPM combined with a bunch of other powers is overpowered when most if not all of those abilities it's overpowered with are balanced with other passives.
If they were overpowered with other passives, that'd be a different matter the yeah they would be, but with so many things being overpowered with AoPM and not so much without, it's pretty darn clear at this point. Yeah I agree it's weak without em but they aren't as powerful without AoPM either . Which abilities again? Ego surge? Sorry but thats actually what I think an active offense SHOULD do, not those weak non-effective active offenses like say, immolate, which only gives a cost discount and the damage difference for most if not everyone is countable on a persons hands.
Thing is i'm getting this ugly feeling you guys are getting beaten by said effects in pvp, and wanting them nerfed so you can't die to them. Sorry but if neither side can kill one another in pvp, thats a very boring game.
Simply put, I don't believe alot of the things you guys are saying is overpowered are really overpowered, buuut I can tell you guys are still wanting nerfs to so many things, it's also begging the question why your asking for so many when it's not broken for pve and actually useful in pve .
Most of these powers are overused with other passives as well. Conviction, Masterful Dodge, Unbreakable, Ascension, Ego Surge, etc., you know what I'm talking about. These powers aren't only very effective when used with AoPM, people slap them on every single build. It just so happens that AoPM gets more mileage out of these things when built certain ways.
People only make tanks in PvP right now anyway. Most of the things we'd like balanced would make it so duels would actually end.
What are you even talking about? Nearly every power in this game is useful in PvE.
Comments
This game shouldn't be changed because two people say that it would be a WoW clone when it wouldn't.
No matter how you dress it up or try to hide it, the trinity still exists, even if on the individual character. You still need to hold up against aggro, and survive via some kind of heal or regen and then have enough DPS to take your enemies down.
This will never change, and it's not enforced to have only a specific type of player, or build to manage this. Some people however do prefer to lean to a particular end of the trio, and this is also not a bad thing. Saying that you don't want the trinity means that you'd rather not play the game period.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Well not too long ago, I had a more stable 300 ping which for the most part only had the subtle delay of about 1 sec for anything to register, now it can fluctuate between subtle delay to lag spiking and rubber banding which makes it even more frustrating with dieing from a power being delayed or not registering a hit to struggle with movement and playing at all, short from a server in Australia or moving closer to US Server, even plausible upgrade to this countries infrastructure might help, but other then that I can expect certain things aren't going to change.
As for this Topic and the Survey, that's nice, I'm just concerned where this is all heading, a platform on which to bring in end game content or 40+ level cap or to break the game and segregate the masses even further, so whatevs, we'll see what happens.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
A: I like team content.
B: You're trying to turn this into WoW!
A: what? how do you figure that?
B: So you admit it!! HA!
A: I don't want this to become WoW...
B: If you like the trinity so much then why don't you go play WoW?
A: Wow.
B: Troll!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
E: win
[Quietly adds 'WoW' to the 'take a shot when seen' list.]
Deliciously nutritious!
Should we get back on topic?
Maybe?
No?
Okay.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Debuffs, buffs, control . . .
Yeah COH did avoid being the holy trinity.
I ran plenty of content and succeeded in that game where we had no healing or tanking.
Just saying.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Yeah, okay, just because you ran plenty of content where you had no healing or tanking, it didn't mean that healing and tanking didn't exist. Just because you experienced teams that deviated away from the traditional trinity doesn't mean that the game avoided being a trinity.
If you want to get all technical, debuffs, buffs and control are mechanics that have long existed since early RPG games that were based around the trinity. Want the best example? D&D clerics and mages.
Just saying.
Hey Fudge, more shots for you. Drink up!
In CoX control/buff/debuff based characters were gods. Almost perma holding was pretty OP. I didn't try incarnates but the content including TFs was pretty easy.
In CoX players almost never died, and it was perceived like a big failure. In CO, being defeated is not that big of a deal except for the lockouts. Wowlike and CoXlike are 2 approaches, they should choose one but I don't think it is good to stay in the middle.
TFs pretty easy? I was a devoted task force leader for years on CoX mainly blue side but also red side. Always in character, always efficiently ran, and never over long nor failed. But Easy? Every time I ran them I recruited straight from the LFG panel, looking for first players in the specific lvl range who based on thier info would indicate if a TF running X amount of time would be something they wanted to do.
The single most common response, from even very recognized server characters even max lvl or well known to be power houses, would be TFs are to hard and take to long without a perfect group. Even in CoX Wowtardism was strong and hard to break the hold of.
Virtually every TF I ever ran would have at least one person who never ran any TF before, and each time at the end they would be like wow that was alot of fun, and not nearly as long and boring as people made it out to be, mostly people on the forums who never played TFs or only tried them in year one when most players still where learning the ropes.
But it was also that I took my TF leadership role quite seriously, My Main TF/exemp specced characters all had stealth and recall friend, the one who didnt I was pretty good at working with assemble team vet powers here and there, and my global friends list was filled to overflowing with people who after running just one TF with me wanted to only run them with me from then on out. Pulling of regular Synapse TFs in under an hour, hess's in under 30 minutes etc all had that affect on those who didnt like to have to sit at a pc for hours in a row.
Nor was death that rare, at least if you didnt molly coddle the team. I would frequently not bother getting so called healers or tanks for my TF groups, now and then a paticularly inept side kick caliber of a player would join and grow frustrated eating dirt when another player of the same AT and similiar power sets would tank ahead solo.
As another in this thread mentioned, players in CoX learned and earned their places in the spectrum of super power. Not everyone was cut out to be the best. And unlike in CO there it was something to take some pride in.
Some people are just born Guy Gardners rather then hal jordans.
Not so in CO here anyone with a basic grasp of balancing their offense and defense can and will dominate all the content. Nothing wrong with that as CO is meant to be a far more casual game.
I wish CO had been CoX2, but it was clearly never going to be from the day of live launch. For those like me who will forever miss CoX Co is at best 20 dollar wannabe absinth rather then the 200$ a bottle kings gold.
I have no clue what game you played, but it wasn't CoX. Control characters weren't good, Fire/Kin was good. Even then, control characters (the few that were viable) needed specifically -knock on their roots and to be /kin. Without IOs, something that the majority didn't have, actually BEING anything short of a bad defender/corruptor was by and large the norm. The two primary exceptions (earth and fire) only got that way because they either had an obnoxious amount of control (Earth) or had massive damage (fire). Nevermind that unless you were a dominator with massive recharge, your contributions to SVs and above was "Look menacing"
As for the trinity, you're also forgetting that every single great support set had healing to some capacity. Dark had the best rez in the game and insane amounts of AOE healing, Kin had great healing, Rad had AM + ghetto healing and a rez, and Empathy had a ton of healing on itself. The actual great support sets that lacked healing (Sonic, Cold and FF) were often ignored or considered bad because having a heal was actually kinda important in CoX.
Besides that, it's rather insulting you talk about rarity of deaths because that assumes you ran with either nothing but Arachnos characters (softcap group), Scrappers, or endeavored to be softcapped yourself. A large amount of the Incarnate Trials and the like (including Preaetoria) were created explicitly with the new softcap power curve in mind, which in turn created an awful lack of balance between the haves and have nots. If you didn't notice, soft capping dodge was a thing in CO until recently, where they rightly nerfed it into oblivion to preserve balance.
Please drop the rose colored glasses and stop speaking in generalities. CoX was a fun game, but it had some very serious problems that contradict your points.
I just need to say one thing that many people get wrong about what the holy trinity is. Its not, Tank, DPS, and Heals, its Tank, DPS, and Support. Buffs, Debuffs, CC are all support. So CoH was still a trinity game.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I personally think that CO should stick to the way it was created, there is a reason there are team only heals and threat mechanics with threat wipe. I wouldn't really see CO as a trinity game HOWEVER it was designed so you NEED some way to soak damage, this doesn't have to be a tank but there needs to be something there. It is also designed so that having stronger team heals will sacrifice damage, you don't need a healer but if you are going to max your damage out to get things done faster you sure as hell aren't going to have all that amazing heals.
CO was designed as a team game with many ways you can help your team including controlling / debuffing / buffing.
If you are going to take the tank out of a team you need to have some sort of replacement, and this is how things should be. Don't you think however that it is still sounding trinity like?
You have something to soak the damage.
You have something to deal the damage.
You have something to heal the damage.
It is basically just the way MMO's work. GW2 didn't remove the trinity system, they even said it themselves when it was in beta. They simply changed where the damage soak was coming from, and where the healing was coming from.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I did not mean to offend anybody. I played CoX before F2P, which I think it could be considered the golden age of that game. Most people I knew where using IOs and we ran without problem a lot of content including high level TFs. At that time, the players I knew felt pretty super and where worry more about enjoying game as groups. It was possible in a group for one or two player to underperform since the others where able to make up for it.
In wow raiding,at least until WotLK ulduar, (talking at progression time, and early farming time) an underperforming player out of 10, could basically wipe the whole raid over and over.
From what I read from other players, CoX started to go a bit more toward the raiding style of wow and other games, which mixed with the f2p players unable to use IOs(the very main reason I didn't go for the f2p in CoX) alienated some players(the quantity, as usual, is debatable)
what I tried to said in my last post is that both approaches are valid, but CO should opt for one and not be so in the middle of them.
Remember... council Gatling guns still hurting you after the enemy is dead.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Wow. What server was that? Because I ran TFs nonstop on Virtue, when asked the plan, I told them, run in kill things, move to the next group, and TFs generally went very very fast.
Only those looking for 15min TFs were disappointed (and that was generally ITF Speed Runners). Most thought 30-60mins was fine.
Meh if you have a 12 second stun then you can make the mobs not even be able to land a hit on anyone. Ego sleep is great on your own or if you have people in your team that are working with it like in other games where you leave a few mobs slept until you disposed of another mob. The problem is that CO is so easy anyway it isn't really necessary to do this.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Which is why I said "The problem is that CO is so easy anyway it isn't really necessary to do this."
The thing is that roots can also work well in rotation with stuns using manipulator. You can see this working well in PvP where you can rotate holds / roots to keep the other player locked down half the time. In PvE I'd say root is only really "a great thing to have" if you use something such as the overseer spec's 'trapped' which I have found to work rather effectively. You can of course also use it on a couple of the holds. By the way most of the hold powers are only really super awful because they are self roots / 50 ft / 2 second charge and activate time holds that probably wont do much good for the team anyway. But that is more of a balancing issue.
Which is a big problem with content in CO. If they really wanted to make the PvE in CO great I would love to see multiple ways that one thing could be done depending on powers and the like. For example a master of the mind could mind control some people to help with the mission or a brick could break through a wall at one point to save time. That kinda thing, just an idea CC could come into that in some way.
EDIT:
You realise how much you contradict yourself here right?
Let me tell you why. I actually agree with you on the fact they should make any choice of powers viable and any style on gameplay viable however the only way to make this possible is by limiting gameplay in certain areas. I know that sounds sort of random but let me use this as an example. Have you noticed how everyone has conviction / ego surge / MD / unbreakable / MSA / STR CON INT / and a hand full of about 10 different powers in "PvP" usually actually PvE'ers? The reason is there is no sacrifice. Taking every single "good thing" in the game doesn't take anything away from another area, but isn't this giving less choice to the player? Yes technically it is HOWEVER it makes more builds viable when compared against each other and allows the game to see many, many, many more builds used by people. Like you wouldn't see the clone army everywhere instead you would see the rebels creating some new and creative way to complete content.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
It'll do wonders to help homogenize us all into the exact same build.
Yes, the need to specialize to make things effective does in fact promote build diversity.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I completely agree with this. When a system is made so that you can pick something with no consequences everyone eventually finds the best combination and flocks to that.
And you also said.
FYI foxi didn't truly aim that at you. Also I said almost the same sort of thing that he said, did you read anything I said? Probably not, should of kept it to the point like what foxi does.
NO U
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I'm not saying I want people to be stuck in situations like that. I agree that's a bad thing. Our current problem is that everyone can do multiple things very well without much effort at all and no sacrifice compared to someone who did decide to specialize in only one area. As long as there would be a good balance I'd be happy, but many suggestions I see would lead to another situation like we currently have.
I'm not trying to sound hostile, but tell that to everyone who is still using AoPM. It is still widely used, and is still an upper tier passive in both PvE and PvP.
You're very, very wrong here.
You need to get strength primary and go pure CON, AOPM will take you up to the cap on the other super stats STR and INT giving you good energy still by giving END and REC and great ranged damage still by giving ego and if you do end up using vindicator mastery then you get damage from strength too. Strength will also give knock resist which isn't just amazing in PvP but is really useful in PvE too. In your gear you just slot defence body with 2 impacts to get loads of defense. Then you have 2 options, you can get guardian and warden for loads of offense or you can stack defense up more and get 5% more crit severity by using vindicator and warden.
Yay for diversity of builds...
You want an offensive passive to be tanky too? You can try doing the exact same settup and you'll be fine. Infact another way you could go is using int primary with both MD and unbreakable which you can just rotate them without really having any gap and you can be defensive with everything. If you find a way to rotate them without any gap using LR or invuln you'll find out just how broken it currently is especially with invuln which calculates the damage wrong while using unbreakable currently. Fact is that things need to hit over like 1,600 damage on you or they'll heal your unbreakable and with MD on you get like 50% flat damage decreased technically if you have no dodge / avoidance stacked.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Things are not common because they do not work. They're overused for a reason.
Technically, I ignored everything you said and twisted nothing out of context... did you notice that I didn't quote you or even mention you in my post?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
He never said you were asking offensive passives to be tanky. The question was asked rhetorically for the purpose of the building examples he was giving.
i.e.
Check out this OxyClean and how good it cleans. You want your whites to be whiter? Just use OxyClean!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You can tell, because you can make a build where you use those other powers with another passive, and they continue to be powerful. Now make an AOPM build without those other powers...congrats, you're a Grimiore.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Most of these powers are overused with other passives as well. Conviction, Masterful Dodge, Unbreakable, Ascension, Ego Surge, etc., you know what I'm talking about. These powers aren't only very effective when used with AoPM, people slap them on every single build. It just so happens that AoPM gets more mileage out of these things when built certain ways.
People only make tanks in PvP right now anyway. Most of the things we'd like balanced would make it so duels would actually end.
What are you even talking about? Nearly every power in this game is useful in PvE.