Again.. my bloody point is that you CAN'T earn this gear WITHOUT either buying keys for lockboxes or interacting with someone else doing that in order to obtain this gear. That does NOT mean that i personally am agains
So you're just pointing it out to point it out... you're not for or against it... you're not making any particular point or observations about it... just typing it up to type it up.. well, congrats, you did it. Now that that's done with, let's move on.
You completely missed the point... as always, why don't you learn english before you try to argue it
The point you were trying to make was that this gear will be "Pay2Win" in PvP. That point is invalid, because people can acquire this gear without paying for it. English!
Twist my words more.. You spoke of keys in a context as "the only way to fund cryptic for CO" I never said that this gear requires the endless amount, just that i asked "isn't this what it's all about?" in regards to making stronger gear.. clearly they must be planning to add more higher level content eventually... otherwise why even make new gear if they never intend to release new zones/raise the level cap? the endless keys comment on that is about the whole concept in general, about lock box after lockbox after lock box with no actual content... if nothing new's being added what's the point why are they even adding this gear?
They are adding new content though. Fire & Ice.
The point of putting out new lockboxes is to drive Key sales. As it turns out, businesses need to keep making money so long as they're in operation... hence why they want to keep giving us new reasons to buy keys.
The point of this new gear is to give us gear progression, which some people clearly want. Cryptic North is giving us what we want. If you don't want the new gear, you don't have to get it, you won't need it.
The only thing watered down is your brain, your definition is the only one that follows one exact rule... the one i explained has varying rules, and the most basic point is the fact it's the highest possible gear in the game, and it's locked in some form behind a pay wall. even if YOU didn't, someone else would have and so it is still pay2win. just because there's no actual goal here in this game anymore, the significance of it being the top most gear and money is involved is definition enough. because as with all other games which you would call pay2win, it doesn't 100% guarantee winning, but it makes it much easier to achieve compared to others.
Funny... earlier you were so hell bent on answering my questions, but this time you breezed right over them.
When Pay2Win is a problem, it's because some people can pay to get gear that others can't get, or they can pay to get gear much faster than other people. Neither of those is the case here. There quite simply is no problem; everyone is equal when it comes to Justice Gear.
Again, you're reading way too much into what i say, if you don't understand english so well you need to stop reading too far into things. It doesn't bug me, the only thing that bugs me is idiots like you who have some vendetta against me and feel the need to constantly argue everything i say when all it starts out from is me simply saying it's still pay to win. then you make it into multiple different arguments in one. And why? all because you read too far into things when you don't even understand what you're reading
So again, you're just saying these things to say them.. neither for nor against.. not really making any point or observation, not trying to accomplish anything. All right then, you should have just said that to begin with instead of responding as if there was actually something to argue against!
True, and even with that, sometimes you get more, sometimes only 2, mostly. but it still directs people toward the lockboxes, which is my point. And casino's do the same thing, or at least the ones here do, provide further incentives to gamble there.
Again, if there's a casino where you gamble and win every time and the only gambling is how much you get.. please direct me there. And yes of course they want to give you incentives to open more lockboxes, that's business, they need a continuing cash flow. Let me guess... you're just pointing this out to point it out, neither for nor against, not trying to make any point or accomplish anything here too?
No, just people like you, and the rest who wish to deny that money is in some way involved in the method of acquiring this gear.
Money being involved doesn't make it pay2win. Money being involved to gain an advantage over other players would make it pay2win... but that's not going on here. It's almost like you're trying to say that the population, together, has to pay2win.... but they don't need to. Even if not a single person ever bothered to get Justice Gear, we would all continue to win just as much as we do now.
Oh, i can handle people responding to me, just not when it's idiots who like to nitpick at literally everything i say so they can continue their petty vendetta against me. and my "Who the hell cares" comment was actually directed at you... not about myself. Why the hell do you care so much that i simply say it's still pay 2 win? obviously you care because you like to constantly harass me
Well I never said I didn't care. I don't have a vendetta against you, it's just that your notion that this is pay2win is just so completely backwards. This is a step forward away from pay2win; Legion gear was about as close to pay2win as we've ever gotten, and even it isn't really pay2win, just gamble2win with the ability to gamble for free.
Cryptic North is making brilliant moves that are improving the game in ways that players have actually asked for and ways that we didn't even know it could be improved... and it's odd to see some people misinterpreting these moves as being extremely negative and underhanded.
The point you were trying to make was that this gear will be "Pay2Win" in PvP. That point is invalid, because people can acquire this gear without paying for it. English!
TL;DR
And here we come full freaking circle again. Congrats, you started a freaking argument out of your petty need to always start crap with me for no apparent reason. And for what? so you can try to act so freaking smug with your bad english. Why do you even bother with words when all you clearly need to do is say "I don't english, but i win k? LOL scrub!" from the very start, i have A. and you interpret not A, but B when i never said the B that you're getting. I then correct you on B and explain what i meant with A You then argue both B and C and skipped D to fight E when it's always just been about Freakin' A
And this comment of yours right here... was my damn point the entire time. For the final time.. Tell me, how on earth you can acquire drifter salvage WITHOUT either spending your own money, or getting someone else to do so on your behalf in order to obtain this gear? No answer? Because you can't. So you're lying when you say people can get it without paying for it. because that drifter salvage has to have come from somewhere where money was involved. Thus pay2win.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of your garbage because clearly this will repeat itself where you start with your damn 'question' with A and B points. and then when i call it out, you'll say you never asked any questions but gave options when expressly asking for answers and go over everything again for no damn reason because you just won't listen.
At least the others are by far more tolerable than you. When it's clear they don't feel the same way i do, but at least they don't go all out to be as petty as you.
Tell me, how on earth you can acquire drifter salvage WITHOUT either spending your own money, or getting someone else to do so on your behalf in order to obtain this gear? No answer? Because you can't. So you're lying when you say people can get it without paying for it. because that drifter salvage has to have come from somewhere where money was involved. Thus pay2win.
Only way I can think is to grind out the Q to convert to Zen and then purchase a key from the Z Store then unlock a lock box.
There's also using your stipend but those are technically paid for via subs or LTS.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
I won the design TTs avatar contest a while back and got a custom forum title, and since a running joke is that I used my three wishes from a genie to get three lifetimes of cheesecake, I couldn't think of a better title to use :P
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Only way I can think is to grind out the Q to convert to Zen and then purchase a key from the Z Store then unlock a lock box.
There's also using your stipend but those are technically paid for via subs or LTS.
But every time you bring up that you yourself don't have to spend a dime, the argument becomes "Someone had to pay for that zen!"
And I really don't get why that would matter, at all.
Actually, stipend from Lifetimers whose subscriptions have already paid for themselves (such as mine, I've been playing for free for years now). Their Stipend is just generated and no one's paying for it. So there you go, you can buy my stipend from me and no one will have paid a dime for your Justice gear.
Oh actually, you can do some surveys, those get you free money, you don't have to pay a dime. There we go, Champs is Don't Pay To Win Unless You Wanna.
Pay to win, in general, refers tot he ability to pay real money for an advantage not available to those who do not.
If the advantage is readily accessible without paying real world currency it is not pay to win. I believe that the word, "readily," is important there because some games lock access to some advantages behind a grind sufficiently intense as to make them all but impossible to get for most players. I do not think that CO crosses that line.
I understand the concern with Pay2Win with games shoving the cash shop in your face right from the start and flat out crippling a game if you don't throw money at it for everything, but that isn't really the case with CO.
If someone wants to blow money on gear for a single character or to sell for pretend money, that's none of my business. Although, 10 trash seems like a lot of real money for a one time use item. That could be as much as $5 for a single piece of gear for a single character. (Two pieces of trash minimum per lockbox.) Just to gear one toon is basically the price of a monthly sub. Or the price of three costume sets which are account wide.
Justice gear is more like Pay4Status as there is no need to bother with it for content currently in the game.
So, Justice gear is coming out after all? And we don't have to pay for it? We can get it in game for playing the rampage sets? Is that what's going on? And if so, where can i go to confirm this hearsay?
Or is this just some sort of jedi mind trickery... :rolleyes:
Pay to win, in general, refers tot he ability to pay real money for an advantage not available to those who do not.
If the advantage is readily accessible without paying real world currency it is not pay to win. I believe that the word, "readily," is important there because some games lock access to some advantages behind a grind sufficiently intense as to make them all but impossible to get for most players. I do not think that CO crosses that line.
Okay, i'll admit, you make a really good point in that regard. Definitely better than spinnytop's method of nitpick and question literally everything i say out of context.
Okay, i'll admit, you make a really good point in that regard. Definitely better than spinnytop's method of nitpick and question literally everything i say out of context.
I said the exact same thing that Ashen did and you threw a fit. The truth here seems to be that you've convinced yourself that I'm some big bully coming after you... and it's caused you to have a problem with me.
The solution is simple...just get over it, it's all in your head :P
Pay to win, in general, refers to the ability to pay real money for an advantage not available to those who do not.
If the advantage is readily accessible without paying real world currency it is not pay to win. I believe that the word, "readily," is important there because some games lock access to some advantages behind a grind sufficiently intense as to make them all but impossible to get for most players. I do not think that CO crosses that line.
Emphasis mine. I'm very very excited for the new patch. We get some new gear and some new content. More reasons to play!
Actually, stipend from Lifetimers whose subscriptions have already paid for themselves (such as mine, I've been playing for free for years now). Their Stipend is just generated and no one's paying for it. So there you go, you can buy my stipend from me and no one will have paid a dime for your Justice gear.
Also a good point. I guess a clarification would be to say that only Gold subs are "paying" for their stipend as I tend to view it as 10$ to rent the gold features and then 5$ month for Zen.
I was simply pointing out how there are options to getting things in game without using your own money to skcark.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Also a good point. I guess a clarification would be to say that only Gold subs are "paying" for their stipend as I tend to view it as 10$ to rent the gold features and then 5$ month for Zen.
I was simply pointing out how there are options to getting things in game without using your own money to skcark.
Oh, I know, these parts weren't directed at anyone, I was just kinda thinking out loud about how some of these things can be gotten without any money spent by anyone. Sorry to make it sound like otherwise
Oh, I know, these parts weren't directed at anyone, I was just kinda thinking out loud about how some of these things can be gotten without any money spent by anyone. Sorry to make it sound like otherwise
No worries
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
I said the exact same thing that Ashen did and you threw a fit. The truth here seems to be that you've convinced yourself that I'm some big bully coming after you... and it's caused you to have a problem with me.
The solution is simple...just get over it, it's all in your head :P
No you didn't, you were too busy nitpicking and questioning literally everything i said, and taking things out of context to further question them in their own form just to be annoying. At least Ashen can talk reasonably without making people feel like he's pushing his ideals on them. You talk in an agressive tone about the slightest thing while posing questions to seem like you think you're so perfect.
Yay. More powercreep to play content that is.. just not there.
Please Cryptic. The game is boring and unbalanced enough as it is, we already scrape diminishing returns like mad with current gear. PvP is a farce, and PvE content basically only consists of repetitive alerts.
Oh, of course. People want rewards for doing Rampages. Personally I'd rather have proper content worth running first. Content that actually -needs- that sort of items.
Yay. More powercreep to play content that is.. just not there.
Please Cryptic. The game is boring and unbalanced enough as it is, we already scrape diminishing returns like mad with current gear. PvP is a farce, and PvE content basically only consists of repetitive alerts.
Oh, of course. People want rewards for doing Rampages. Personally I'd rather have proper content worth running first. Content that actually -needs- that sort of items.
But then as soon as they would add in super hard content that only min / maxers with the new gear can attempt a bunch of other people complain about how they are forced to get something to do content.
In the end people will complain about anything.
Also how do you know anything about PvP if you haven't done it in over a year?
No you didn't, you were too busy nitpicking and questioning literally everything i said, and taking things out of context to further question them in their own form just to be annoying. At least Ashen can talk reasonably without making people feel like he's pushing his ideals on them. You talk in an agressive tone about the slightest thing while posing questions to seem like you think you're so perfect.
You sure do make a lot of assumptions. I can assure you, you're wrong. I know, I write a lot; don't take it personally.
You sure do make a lot of assumptions. I can assure you, you're wrong. I know, I write a lot; don't take it personally.
LOL that's rich coming from you... you make assumptions about everything i say and attack the assumptions you make as if i had said it when i never did.
I'm not sure where the problem is. The only difference I see with the Justice Gear and the Heroic Gear is that they have a Drifter Salvage cost. Though that's hardly pay2win, since keys are more accessible through the Auction House than actually from Zen. I've been a subscriber for a while, but I've only ever bought 2 keys with Zen, and about 100 others with globals through the AH.
ok how's this for discussion? I just noticed that the way the justice gear vendor is set up players will be forced to play in all rampages. that is NOT how to do things, as some players will likely never see the victory screen of fire and ice, and especially sky command without a vehicle, melee players can't do anything without a vehicle there.
There's nothing wrong with this. The best gear in any MMO is usually gated behind the most difficult content. It's par for the course.
Some people not seeing the victory screen ever is a bit of hyperbole and the only cause for that is simply not trying hard enough.
Melee players can get in to melee range with the disc. It's not much different than being in Lemuria as Melee, which was the very first way I ever completed Lemuria. It wasn't ideal, but it was doable. Was that exaggeration or can they literally not do anything without a vehicle?
I haven't done it in ages, but I remember that there's mobs that spawn on the top of the helicarrier. Couldn't they fight there?
ok how's this for discussion? I just noticed that the way the justice gear vendor is set up players will be forced to play in all rampages. that is NOT how to do things, as some players will likely never see the victory screen of fire and ice, and especially sky command without a vehicle, melee players can't do anything without a vehicle there.
I don't know where this notion came from that players should be guaranteed to get gear they don't need no matter what just to keep their feelings from getting hurt because other people have gear they don't. So what if some people can't get the Justice Gear? They don't need it for anything, it's basically just fluff at this point.
no content should NEED top tier gear. that said top tier gear should definitely help and be desirable.
Needing gear can't really happen here anyway. I mean, how would they even implement that if they wanted to?
Needing gear is predicated around three things:
1) Tanks need a certain level of gear to not die.
2) Healers need a certain level of gear to keep people from dying.
3) DPSers need a certain level of gear to beat dps timers.
^^^^^
That whole thing can't even be implemented here, because there's no reliable way to base what level gear any given player needs because of the huge difference in builds. Mr. Super Tank and Guy Themebuild are both technically tanks... but the amount of gear that the latter would need is leaps and bounds greater than what the former would need. Then you throw on the fact that tanks here don't just stack Defense and Hit Points and then hope a healer can keep them up, so how would anyone even figure out what kind of an encounter to make that would create specific needs that could then be filled by specific gear?
NEEDING gear is pretty much incompatible with the format of Champions Online, so I don't think we have to worry that that's ever going to become a thing.
With Justice Gear we can see that CrypticN is thinking in the right direction. The whole "+25 to all stats" thing is a big convenience boost. Nobody needs that, but everyone will be happy to have it and it'll make things easier without necessarily overpowering them.
Gradii, sorry to briefly take this away from discussion but....
Just think before you type. <.<
Anyway, frankly I am finding this gear is benefiting the "FOTM" or cheesy powers much more than things less "FOTM" and so from a PvP stand point I'm going to expect anyone with this gear and strength primary with int and con secondary then using vindicator and warden is basically instantly super hard to kill. There's nothing wrong with having over 100% damage resistance and 20% bonus damage from offense with 112% crit severity and ego surge to give me 80% crit chance, no way.
Frankly I wouldn't expect PvP to be in the minds of the devs and I'm not going to complain. However, PvE wise although you can pretty much do the alerts rather easy with the right set up and heroic anyway this gear pretty much makes all content even more pointless if you are using it. It makes people so incredibly tanky that the NPC's may as well not even be there. This being said I strongly feel you should not only be able to do hard mode versions of all content (not elite but a step up from it, also leveling things to level 40 or over that if they already are 40+). Ofcourse this "harder content" will be something the devs will need to get working on after they do this new rampage system that I personally am looking forward to running with my SG.
Basically I support a feeling that as you play the game you get stronger and learn more about you character at the same time. The idea of doing things like this is that there is a gear progression. I can't actually think of anyone who will NEVER complete the rampages though. Like you could even sometimes bump into a healer friend who'll be happy to go into a few runs with you, or a tank who will stop you from getting agro all the time. Even without meeting someone to help you through the rampage or doing it with your SG you could even pug it easily and get a few wins simply by getting someone in your team who could solo anything with some cheese build.
There's nothing wrong with this. The best gear in any MMO is usually gated behind the most difficult content. It's par for the course.
CO is (or was) however different and that was one of the reasons i liked it so much.
Its also exactly the same reason why i started playing GW2 and left games like EQ2
and RIFT because i just hate raiding and after a while you get more and more displeased
with the game, if you know you will never get those new shinies if you don't do things
that are absolut NO fun for you.
I for one and grateful for the way justice gear is getting released, It means that unlike legion gear it won't be based on lockboxes and RNG/your wallet, instead you'll have to work for it(true you still need 10 salvage per piece but that's easily gotten) which will give the max level players something to actually do, over than their current hanging around ren cen dueling each other/selling stuff/farming kills/doing nothing(srsly we need some new major content for the really high levels)
In all things, a calm heart must prevail.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Not everything in the game should be obtainable in every way possible. While there should be an option to not use real world money to avoid the Pay to Win issue, there's really not a big threat if you choose not to run the rampages to get the new gear. Everything that currently exists in game can be completed with the existing gear, albeit some players will have issues due to builds or their own limitations. I see no reason to rush out and get the best and brightest of the new gear while there is no incentive (ie content) to make it worthwhile. Until there is that incentive it's only a numbers game. And for those that want the numbers, by all means go for it, but for those who don't it's not a big deal.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
CO is (or was) however different and that was one of the reasons i liked it so much.
Its also exactly the same reason why i started playing GW2 and left games like EQ2
and RIFT because i just hate raiding and after a while you get more and more displeased
with the game, if you know you will never get those new shinies if you don't do things
that are absolut NO fun for you.
Don't worry, CO will still be that way. You won't have to do Rampages if they're not fun for you. Heck, if they're no fun for you, what reason do you have to do them? Justice Gear? If you're not doing rampages, you don't need Justice Gear. Heck, even if you are doing rampages you don't need justice gear.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself... why do you want Justice Gear?
Pretty much this. players of all types play this game. I daresay about half of them hate gravitar with a passion already. and she's not even gonna be the hardest rampage.
Putting aside the fact that there's nothing to indicate that half the players in this game hate gravitar, I have to ask... what's the problem? Gravitar is one encounter, and there are many other encounters in the game. Even with the rampage rotation, rampages will still continue to be a minor piece of content in the game.
So what if it's "new" (technically 75% of it isn't). If it's not fun for someone, there's no reason for them to do it, and there's plenty of alternatives... in fact the vast majority of the game is the alternative.
In order for them to bend the content around the desire of players who don't want to run "difficult" content to get this gear, there needs to be a compelling reason that those players would need, or want, that gear. Since needing the gear is clearly out of the question, we have to ask if there's a compelling reason for those players to want that gear. "I want it so that I won't be one of the people who doesn't have it" is not a compelling reason.
this is your opinion. keep in mind not everyone thinks that way, and people will want the best gear regardless of what they can do with it.
Personally I have plenty of rampage capable toons, I'd have little problem obtaining Justice gear. I'm thinking of the kind of player which makes up most of the playerbase, non min maxers. this does not mean theme builders, as themed builds are capable of being every bit as powerful. and non min maxers want good items just as much as the min maxers. the "best" gear is always something people go for.
Well of course it's my opinion, never stated it as fact.
I'm not a min-maxer, never have been, never will be. And most causal players in this game seem to be more interested in better powers and costume/emote/RP based options than gear. Not saying everyone, but it's certainly a trend. From other MMOs I've played gear is important only as long as you have the content that requires it. Until that happens I don't see the fuss about having new gear to do... the same content we've already mastered for the most part (minus what's bugged and broken)
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
this is your opinion. keep in mind not everyone thinks that way, and people will want the best gear regardless of what they can do with it.
Personally I have plenty of rampage capable toons, I'd have little problem obtaining Justice gear. I'm thinking of the kind of player which makes up most of the playerbase, non min maxers. this does not mean theme builders, as themed builds are capable of being every bit as powerful. and non min maxers want good items just as much as the min maxers. the "best" gear is always something people go for.
To be frank, most bad players can barely run alerts, let alone Rampages and will continue to get carried in both. A large amount of them will have no problem obtaining Justice gear because it doesn't take a full ten to complete a rampage (heck, Gravitar needs just one).
That being said, a "vast majority" being bad players is a large amount of hyperbole because most people in the bell curve will sit in the middle. Even ignoring that, if you have any one grievance it's with archetypes and not good/bad players more then anything.
You would be surprised how few people actually care to run the content. I have a friend who's been playing CO forever, has incredibly strong characters, but she won't run Gravitar because she largely doesn't even care. Justice may or may not make her want to run it, but its difficulty is largely immaterial. As Spinny has said, you don't have to do the content, and most people either don't want to or don't feel rewarded (see: lairs) if they do.
My friend sleepwalks through most stuff in heroic gear. If she doesn't want to do Gravitar, something she can very likely solo, why would better gear entice her?
Gradii, I'm not changing from what I said before. Here's another stiens gate meme (because it's awesome as you said) to explain how I feel about all the stuff you keep repeating over and over.
You just said that we should be able to buy tokens from other players? Does this or does this not mean that players can instead of playing the game to get gear simply "pay to win" because that's what it sounds like to me.
Not a great idea, keep it only through doing the content. I don't want someone who spends no time on the game simply to buy all the gear with their masses of G.
I think archetypes will still be able to do the rampages but may need help from other players. Things like lemurian invasion and that sky command one should be easy enough for them to do however. Basically the idea is that you need the full 10 man team, what's the point in 10 man content if you could do it with 1 or 2 people easily.
this is your opinion. keep in mind not everyone thinks that way, and people will want the best gear regardless of what they can do with it.
Personally I have plenty of rampage capable toons, I'd have little problem obtaining Justice gear. I'm thinking of the kind of player which makes up most of the playerbase, non min maxers. this does not mean theme builders, as themed builds are capable of being every bit as powerful. and non min maxers want good items just as much as the min maxers. the "best" gear is always something people go for.
Okay, you're not speaking for yourself, and you're only voicing your concerns for the "non min maxers" and "themebuilders". Fair enough, so how about we hear from one of them instead and see if their concerns line up with how you're representing them?
Hi, I'm SpinnyTop, I'm not a min maxer, and I only build themebuilds; in fact, some people would say I'm quite dumb because I actually build weaknesses into my builds that I have to play around. I'm not worried about being able to acquire Justice Gear, because I know so long as I put forth the effort that I will be able to acquire it on all of my characters eventually, and I look forward to content where I actually feel like I am being rewarded for my efforts, rather than being handed the rewards just for showing up.
See, nothing to worry about, us nonmin-maxers and themebuilders will be fine
I'm Concerned and I've tested your Precious Justice Gear and found the difference, Disturbing, it's bad enough that those that don't MinMax are left behind to struggle but this just adds insult to injury, I'll show you a links with two Exact builds, one using Heroic Gear the other, Justice.... If I can put that much of a difference, I'm rather Average, I can only imagine what you better builders can pull off, it's going to be greater despair, Getting that feeling 'Get Justice Gear or suffer, Hard'...
Granted it's to entice queuing Rampage Alerts and I guess something for those that are bored at 40, but once those that reap the rewards then move on, how is this going to help others?
I ran a survey on this and your opinion is by far the minority of players. I specifically went out of my way to pull players from in-game and invite them to take the survey. Players from all groups, PvE farmers, traders, former CoX players, PvP diehards, people who spend a ton of their time doing costume contests, light RP groups, more hardcore RP groups. I tried to get a few of everyone.
The population speaks against you. 46.15% of people who too the survey LOVE how Justice Gear is getting implemented, inspite of your protests. People who dislike it and people who hated how it's being implemented even summed together only account for 23.07%.
I personally love how it's being implemented, but with one concern: Are the crafting component drops going to be accessible enough? How rare are those drops going to be? If it's too rare, it's really going to suck.
But as far as HOW it's being implemented or what Justice Gear does, I really don't see the issue and instead feel your topic is simply hyperbole of impending DOOOOM, especially once you consider what diminishing returns on stats do. Maybe you're just one of those people who wants to get all the good stuff for free?
This ain't a charity afterall, it's a business. They need revenue. Some power creep is necessary over a long period of time, the problem becomes if it's grows too quickly and how the games is balanced for it. In short, power creep needs to be kept to a minimum as much as possible. When on Alert came out player power surged forward (and made even more powerful by vehicles) and the game has never really been properly re-adjusted for that increased power. Perhaps I should so more specific survey questions in the future about this, if I can find a fair and unbiased way to pose the question to get genuine data, but for now, I find your topic lacking in facts and more about your personal feeling about power creep (which yes, I'll also agree it sucks to have to re-gear and have old stuff becoming antiquated for the latest new thing)
I think you miss the point agentx5. I love that its for doing rampages. I HATE that you must complete EVERY rampage to get the gear as it screws so many players. some sort of token exchange (3 for 1 sounds about right) would be in order.
Do you have anything that supports the highlighted portion ? You seem to be claiming to speak for some silent group...and yet they don't seem to consider this to be of sufficient import to speak up for themselves. Who are these, "so many players ?"
Comments
^ --- this is just pointless nonsense, so let's skip ahead.
So you're just pointing it out to point it out... you're not for or against it... you're not making any particular point or observations about it... just typing it up to type it up.. well, congrats, you did it. Now that that's done with, let's move on.
The point you were trying to make was that this gear will be "Pay2Win" in PvP. That point is invalid, because people can acquire this gear without paying for it. English!
They are adding new content though. Fire & Ice.
The point of putting out new lockboxes is to drive Key sales. As it turns out, businesses need to keep making money so long as they're in operation... hence why they want to keep giving us new reasons to buy keys.
The point of this new gear is to give us gear progression, which some people clearly want. Cryptic North is giving us what we want. If you don't want the new gear, you don't have to get it, you won't need it.
Funny... earlier you were so hell bent on answering my questions, but this time you breezed right over them.
When Pay2Win is a problem, it's because some people can pay to get gear that others can't get, or they can pay to get gear much faster than other people. Neither of those is the case here. There quite simply is no problem; everyone is equal when it comes to Justice Gear.
So again, you're just saying these things to say them.. neither for nor against.. not really making any point or observation, not trying to accomplish anything. All right then, you should have just said that to begin with instead of responding as if there was actually something to argue against!
Again, if there's a casino where you gamble and win every time and the only gambling is how much you get.. please direct me there. And yes of course they want to give you incentives to open more lockboxes, that's business, they need a continuing cash flow. Let me guess... you're just pointing this out to point it out, neither for nor against, not trying to make any point or accomplish anything here too?
Money being involved doesn't make it pay2win. Money being involved to gain an advantage over other players would make it pay2win... but that's not going on here. It's almost like you're trying to say that the population, together, has to pay2win.... but they don't need to. Even if not a single person ever bothered to get Justice Gear, we would all continue to win just as much as we do now.
Well I never said I didn't care. I don't have a vendetta against you, it's just that your notion that this is pay2win is just so completely backwards. This is a step forward away from pay2win; Legion gear was about as close to pay2win as we've ever gotten, and even it isn't really pay2win, just gamble2win with the ability to gamble for free.
Cryptic North is making brilliant moves that are improving the game in ways that players have actually asked for and ways that we didn't even know it could be improved... and it's odd to see some people misinterpreting these moves as being extremely negative and underhanded.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
TL;DR
And here we come full freaking circle again. Congrats, you started a freaking argument out of your petty need to always start crap with me for no apparent reason. And for what? so you can try to act so freaking smug with your bad english. Why do you even bother with words when all you clearly need to do is say "I don't english, but i win k? LOL scrub!" from the very start, i have A. and you interpret not A, but B when i never said the B that you're getting. I then correct you on B and explain what i meant with A You then argue both B and C and skipped D to fight E when it's always just been about Freakin' A
And this comment of yours right here... was my damn point the entire time. For the final time.. Tell me, how on earth you can acquire drifter salvage WITHOUT either spending your own money, or getting someone else to do so on your behalf in order to obtain this gear? No answer? Because you can't. So you're lying when you say people can get it without paying for it. because that drifter salvage has to have come from somewhere where money was involved. Thus pay2win.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of your garbage because clearly this will repeat itself where you start with your damn 'question' with A and B points. and then when i call it out, you'll say you never asked any questions but gave options when expressly asking for answers and go over everything again for no damn reason because you just won't listen.
At least the others are by far more tolerable than you. When it's clear they don't feel the same way i do, but at least they don't go all out to be as petty as you.
Only way I can think is to grind out the Q to convert to Zen and then purchase a key from the Z Store then unlock a lock box.
There's also using your stipend but those are technically paid for via subs or LTS.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
What content can't done without it?
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I won the design TTs avatar contest a while back and got a custom forum title, and since a running joke is that I used my three wishes from a genie to get three lifetimes of cheesecake, I couldn't think of a better title to use :P
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
But every time you bring up that you yourself don't have to spend a dime, the argument becomes "Someone had to pay for that zen!"
And I really don't get why that would matter, at all.
Actually, stipend from Lifetimers whose subscriptions have already paid for themselves (such as mine, I've been playing for free for years now). Their Stipend is just generated and no one's paying for it. So there you go, you can buy my stipend from me and no one will have paid a dime for your Justice gear.
Oh actually, you can do some surveys, those get you free money, you don't have to pay a dime. There we go, Champs is Don't Pay To Win Unless You Wanna.
If the advantage is readily accessible without paying real world currency it is not pay to win. I believe that the word, "readily," is important there because some games lock access to some advantages behind a grind sufficiently intense as to make them all but impossible to get for most players. I do not think that CO crosses that line.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If someone wants to blow money on gear for a single character or to sell for pretend money, that's none of my business. Although, 10 trash seems like a lot of real money for a one time use item. That could be as much as $5 for a single piece of gear for a single character. (Two pieces of trash minimum per lockbox.) Just to gear one toon is basically the price of a monthly sub. Or the price of three costume sets which are account wide.
Justice gear is more like Pay4Status as there is no need to bother with it for content currently in the game.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
So, Justice gear is coming out after all? And we don't have to pay for it? We can get it in game for playing the rampage sets? Is that what's going on? And if so, where can i go to confirm this hearsay?
Or is this just some sort of jedi mind trickery... :rolleyes:
Just a thought.
Justice Gear
Justice Gear returns as a reward for playing Rampages.
Collect tokens from all four Rampages to purchase Justice Gear pieces.
There is also a small Drifter Salvage cost.
Token drops are bound to account when acquired.
Justice Gear stats have been adjusted upward a little on some pieces.
In this build, visit the Debugger for details. In the future, the Drifter will be responsible for this gear.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I just read the PST notes. Silly me. :rolleyes:
Okay, i'll admit, you make a really good point in that regard. Definitely better than spinnytop's method of nitpick and question literally everything i say out of context.
I said the exact same thing that Ashen did and you threw a fit. The truth here seems to be that you've convinced yourself that I'm some big bully coming after you... and it's caused you to have a problem with me.
The solution is simple...just get over it, it's all in your head :P
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Emphasis mine. I'm very very excited for the new patch. We get some new gear and some new content. More reasons to play!
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I agree, that's why I pointed out that there are ways that a player doesn't have to pay money to obtain things in the game.
Also a good point. I guess a clarification would be to say that only Gold subs are "paying" for their stipend as I tend to view it as 10$ to rent the gold features and then 5$ month for Zen.
I was simply pointing out how there are options to getting things in game without using your own money to skcark.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Oh, I know, these parts weren't directed at anyone, I was just kinda thinking out loud about how some of these things can be gotten without any money spent by anyone. Sorry to make it sound like otherwise
No worries
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
No you didn't, you were too busy nitpicking and questioning literally everything i said, and taking things out of context to further question them in their own form just to be annoying. At least Ashen can talk reasonably without making people feel like he's pushing his ideals on them. You talk in an agressive tone about the slightest thing while posing questions to seem like you think you're so perfect.
Please Cryptic. The game is boring and unbalanced enough as it is, we already scrape diminishing returns like mad with current gear. PvP is a farce, and PvE content basically only consists of repetitive alerts.
Oh, of course. People want rewards for doing Rampages. Personally I'd rather have proper content worth running first. Content that actually -needs- that sort of items.
@Ysale ingame. I do RP and stuff!
But then as soon as they would add in super hard content that only min / maxers with the new gear can attempt a bunch of other people complain about how they are forced to get something to do content.
In the end people will complain about anything.
Also how do you know anything about PvP if you haven't done it in over a year?
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
You sure do make a lot of assumptions. I can assure you, you're wrong. I know, I write a lot; don't take it personally.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
LOL that's rich coming from you... you make assumptions about everything i say and attack the assumptions you make as if i had said it when i never did.
You write a lot, yes. a lot of rubbish
So you tell me. What's not fair?
There's nothing wrong with this. The best gear in any MMO is usually gated behind the most difficult content. It's par for the course.
Some people not seeing the victory screen ever is a bit of hyperbole and the only cause for that is simply not trying hard enough.
Melee players can get in to melee range with the disc. It's not much different than being in Lemuria as Melee, which was the very first way I ever completed Lemuria. It wasn't ideal, but it was doable. Was that exaggeration or can they literally not do anything without a vehicle?
I haven't done it in ages, but I remember that there's mobs that spawn on the top of the helicarrier. Couldn't they fight there?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I don't know where this notion came from that players should be guaranteed to get gear they don't need no matter what just to keep their feelings from getting hurt because other people have gear they don't. So what if some people can't get the Justice Gear? They don't need it for anything, it's basically just fluff at this point.
Needing gear can't really happen here anyway. I mean, how would they even implement that if they wanted to?
Needing gear is predicated around three things:
1) Tanks need a certain level of gear to not die.
2) Healers need a certain level of gear to keep people from dying.
3) DPSers need a certain level of gear to beat dps timers.
^^^^^
That whole thing can't even be implemented here, because there's no reliable way to base what level gear any given player needs because of the huge difference in builds. Mr. Super Tank and Guy Themebuild are both technically tanks... but the amount of gear that the latter would need is leaps and bounds greater than what the former would need. Then you throw on the fact that tanks here don't just stack Defense and Hit Points and then hope a healer can keep them up, so how would anyone even figure out what kind of an encounter to make that would create specific needs that could then be filled by specific gear?
NEEDING gear is pretty much incompatible with the format of Champions Online, so I don't think we have to worry that that's ever going to become a thing.
With Justice Gear we can see that CrypticN is thinking in the right direction. The whole "+25 to all stats" thing is a big convenience boost. Nobody needs that, but everyone will be happy to have it and it'll make things easier without necessarily overpowering them.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Just think before you type. <.<
Anyway, frankly I am finding this gear is benefiting the "FOTM" or cheesy powers much more than things less "FOTM" and so from a PvP stand point I'm going to expect anyone with this gear and strength primary with int and con secondary then using vindicator and warden is basically instantly super hard to kill. There's nothing wrong with having over 100% damage resistance and 20% bonus damage from offense with 112% crit severity and ego surge to give me 80% crit chance, no way.
Frankly I wouldn't expect PvP to be in the minds of the devs and I'm not going to complain. However, PvE wise although you can pretty much do the alerts rather easy with the right set up and heroic anyway this gear pretty much makes all content even more pointless if you are using it. It makes people so incredibly tanky that the NPC's may as well not even be there. This being said I strongly feel you should not only be able to do hard mode versions of all content (not elite but a step up from it, also leveling things to level 40 or over that if they already are 40+). Ofcourse this "harder content" will be something the devs will need to get working on after they do this new rampage system that I personally am looking forward to running with my SG.
Basically I support a feeling that as you play the game you get stronger and learn more about you character at the same time. The idea of doing things like this is that there is a gear progression. I can't actually think of anyone who will NEVER complete the rampages though. Like you could even sometimes bump into a healer friend who'll be happy to go into a few runs with you, or a tank who will stop you from getting agro all the time. Even without meeting someone to help you through the rampage or doing it with your SG you could even pug it easily and get a few wins simply by getting someone in your team who could solo anything with some cheese build.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
CO is (or was) however different and that was one of the reasons i liked it so much.
Its also exactly the same reason why i started playing GW2 and left games like EQ2
and RIFT because i just hate raiding and after a while you get more and more displeased
with the game, if you know you will never get those new shinies if you don't do things
that are absolut NO fun for you.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Don't worry, CO will still be that way. You won't have to do Rampages if they're not fun for you. Heck, if they're no fun for you, what reason do you have to do them? Justice Gear? If you're not doing rampages, you don't need Justice Gear. Heck, even if you are doing rampages you don't need justice gear.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself... why do you want Justice Gear?
Putting aside the fact that there's nothing to indicate that half the players in this game hate gravitar, I have to ask... what's the problem? Gravitar is one encounter, and there are many other encounters in the game. Even with the rampage rotation, rampages will still continue to be a minor piece of content in the game.
So what if it's "new" (technically 75% of it isn't). If it's not fun for someone, there's no reason for them to do it, and there's plenty of alternatives... in fact the vast majority of the game is the alternative.
In order for them to bend the content around the desire of players who don't want to run "difficult" content to get this gear, there needs to be a compelling reason that those players would need, or want, that gear. Since needing the gear is clearly out of the question, we have to ask if there's a compelling reason for those players to want that gear. "I want it so that I won't be one of the people who doesn't have it" is not a compelling reason.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Well of course it's my opinion, never stated it as fact.
I'm not a min-maxer, never have been, never will be. And most causal players in this game seem to be more interested in better powers and costume/emote/RP based options than gear. Not saying everyone, but it's certainly a trend. From other MMOs I've played gear is important only as long as you have the content that requires it. Until that happens I don't see the fuss about having new gear to do... the same content we've already mastered for the most part (minus what's bugged and broken)
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
To be frank, most bad players can barely run alerts, let alone Rampages and will continue to get carried in both. A large amount of them will have no problem obtaining Justice gear because it doesn't take a full ten to complete a rampage (heck, Gravitar needs just one).
That being said, a "vast majority" being bad players is a large amount of hyperbole because most people in the bell curve will sit in the middle. Even ignoring that, if you have any one grievance it's with archetypes and not good/bad players more then anything.
You would be surprised how few people actually care to run the content. I have a friend who's been playing CO forever, has incredibly strong characters, but she won't run Gravitar because she largely doesn't even care. Justice may or may not make her want to run it, but its difficulty is largely immaterial. As Spinny has said, you don't have to do the content, and most people either don't want to or don't feel rewarded (see: lairs) if they do.
My friend sleepwalks through most stuff in heroic gear. If she doesn't want to do Gravitar, something she can very likely solo, why would better gear entice her?
You just said that we should be able to buy tokens from other players? Does this or does this not mean that players can instead of playing the game to get gear simply "pay to win" because that's what it sounds like to me.
Not a great idea, keep it only through doing the content. I don't want someone who spends no time on the game simply to buy all the gear with their masses of G.
I think archetypes will still be able to do the rampages but may need help from other players. Things like lemurian invasion and that sky command one should be easy enough for them to do however. Basically the idea is that you need the full 10 man team, what's the point in 10 man content if you could do it with 1 or 2 people easily.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Okay, you're not speaking for yourself, and you're only voicing your concerns for the "non min maxers" and "themebuilders". Fair enough, so how about we hear from one of them instead and see if their concerns line up with how you're representing them?
Hi, I'm SpinnyTop, I'm not a min maxer, and I only build themebuilds; in fact, some people would say I'm quite dumb because I actually build weaknesses into my builds that I have to play around. I'm not worried about being able to acquire Justice Gear, because I know so long as I put forth the effort that I will be able to acquire it on all of my characters eventually, and I look forward to content where I actually feel like I am being rewarded for my efforts, rather than being handed the rewards just for showing up.
See, nothing to worry about, us nonmin-maxers and themebuilders will be fine
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I ran a survey on this and your opinion is by far the minority of players. I specifically went out of my way to pull players from in-game and invite them to take the survey. Players from all groups, PvE farmers, traders, former CoX players, PvP diehards, people who spend a ton of their time doing costume contests, light RP groups, more hardcore RP groups. I tried to get a few of everyone.
The population speaks against you. 46.15% of people who too the survey LOVE how Justice Gear is getting implemented, inspite of your protests. People who dislike it and people who hated how it's being implemented even summed together only account for 23.07%.
I personally love how it's being implemented, but with one concern: Are the crafting component drops going to be accessible enough? How rare are those drops going to be? If it's too rare, it's really going to suck.
But as far as HOW it's being implemented or what Justice Gear does, I really don't see the issue and instead feel your topic is simply hyperbole of impending DOOOOM, especially once you consider what diminishing returns on stats do. Maybe you're just one of those people who wants to get all the good stuff for free?
This ain't a charity afterall, it's a business. They need revenue. Some power creep is necessary over a long period of time, the problem becomes if it's grows too quickly and how the games is balanced for it. In short, power creep needs to be kept to a minimum as much as possible. When on Alert came out player power surged forward (and made even more powerful by vehicles) and the game has never really been properly re-adjusted for that increased power. Perhaps I should so more specific survey questions in the future about this, if I can find a fair and unbiased way to pose the question to get genuine data, but for now, I find your topic lacking in facts and more about your personal feeling about power creep (which yes, I'll also agree it sucks to have to re-gear and have old stuff becoming antiquated for the latest new thing)
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
lol, I see some things don't change.....
:P
@Scrizz :biggrin:
I think that no one cares what you think.
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Do you have anything that supports the highlighted portion ? You seem to be claiming to speak for some silent group...and yet they don't seem to consider this to be of sufficient import to speak up for themselves. Who are these, "so many players ?"
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.