This is the discussion thread. The one you are looking for is one thread up.
I was pointing out that the discussion in this thread should take into account that nothing in this version is final.
Do we want developers to look at existing mechanics and powers? I think so. Do we want them to introduce new stuff? Yeah....though hopefully it's not in a lockbox.
So when they ask for our feedback on the above, let's see if we can stay away from calling them scam artists. Clearly people are unhappy with changes to dodge.
How would you want it changed? If at all. Maybe we can give the devs some ideas about what to do?
You don't need to spend a dime for Legion Gear. You can farm Questionite for ZEN, you can farm Global and buy the gear you need from the AH or other players. The amount of farming either would take is comparable to the time it took me to farm UNTIL gear, then farm broken Serpent Lantern secondaries, THEN farm even more broken Serpent Lantern Elite secondaries.
But people either can't figure out how to obtain Legion Gear without spending real money, or are too lazy to do so, so they want the gear right now by buying a crapton of Cosmic Keys. And then those people complain when their hastily spent cash is "invalidated" with a rebalance patch. I've been paying a sub for three and a half years now, and bought a bunch of Cryptic Points, Atari Tokens and ZEN on multiple occasion. I should have been crying bloody murder whenever they touched my characters' powers, because those characters are the reason I play.
But that would be silly, because if paying for something means that it is immune to rebalancing, then this isn't a game I want to play.
Irrelevant. People did spend money to acquire Legion Gear. Legion gear could never have been acquired w/out someone spending money in the first place. We can argue about whether or not it should have been done, but it would be pointless. The genie has been out of the bottle for ages.
*Vixy- My beef is with the potential changes to gear. I think if people feel that if certain powers need to be brought in line then fine. It's done all the time, I can accept that. But that would take a far more nuanced approach than what is being proposed here.
edit: as someone pointed out pages back, the Justice Gear was referred to as upcoming, not something being considered as a potential.
Irrelevant. People did spend money to acquire Legion Gear. Legion gear could never have been acquired w/out someone spending money in the first place. We can argue about whether or not it should have been done, but it would be pointless. The genie has been out of the bottle for ages.
And for this game to exist and all of us to be here on these forums and discuss it, someone had to spend money on the game. I don't see the point you are making.
Also, no, nobody needs to spend a dime to buy Legion Gear. ZEN can be earned for free via surveys or monthly stipends. Your argument that Legion Gear requires money to change hands to exist is wrong.
It's clear that the details of the changes are far from final, so I won't say too much about them except to restate some of the potential issues others have already mentioned:
1.) Dodge formulas need to be reconciled/balanced between powers and gear that give flat dodge % vs. Dodge Rating (in particular, Lightning Reflexes needs fixed).
2.) The current changes seem likely to affect more players at the lower end of the curve (e.g. basic Heroic gear with 40% dodge) than at the high end.
Once all of the details are worked out, I can't say that I have a huge problem with the changes, especially if they allow for more viable gearing paths (e.g. Offense vs Crits, Defense vs. Dodge), and more importantly if they lead to more content.
To the people making lots of assumptions about new gear and already threatening to quit (again), I have to say: grow up. MMO's are hamsterwheels, not races to a destination. There is no guarantee, implicit or otherwise, that your best gear now will always be the best gear available. I do agree with you that putting essential gear in lockboxes is crappy, and the definition of Pay-To-Win, but there is no evidence (yet) to support the notion that's what they plan to do.
HOWEVER, I do think that a lot of people would find these kinds of changes easier to swallow if Cryptic made a case as to: a.) why these changes are necessary, and b.) what positive outcomes they will lead to down the road. Personally, I'm pretty convinced that these efforts are a rather positive indication for the game; I don't think Cryptic would put this kind of effort into bug fixes and game balance if they didn't have longer term plans. But it would certainly be nice to hear this from them.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
these changes are not neccesary at all. all they do is wreck half the themed builds in CO.
Yes, because every theme'd build is a crit based dodge monster utilizing a mechanic that makes them easily as resilient as any tank.
Get real.
Also, for those STILL bickering about these 'going to live', pull your heads outta your butts. You really think that they would suddenly glue this to live, especially when they asked, on these very threads, in the first post, for feedback concerning them?
Man, the forums really are the endgame of CO. These mobs have terrible AI.
And for this game to exist and all of us to be here on these forums and discuss it, someone had to spend money on the game. I don't see the point you are making.
Also, no, nobody needs to spend a dime to buy Legion Gear. ZEN can be earned for free via surveys or monthly stipends. Your argument that Legion Gear requires money to change hands to exist is wrong.
False. Those surveys are paid for with real money by the companies sponsoring them. If you don't see the point, that's not my problem, that is yours. This is not a complicated economic issue, no matter how you try to spin it.
You don't need to spend a dime for Legion Gear. You can farm Questionite for ZEN, you can farm Global and buy the gear you need from the AH or other players. The amount of farming either would take is comparable to the time it took me to farm UNTIL gear, then farm broken Serpent Lantern secondaries, THEN farm even more broken Serpent Lantern Elite secondaries.
But people either can't figure out how to obtain Legion Gear without spending real money, or are too lazy to do so, so they want the gear right now by buying a crapton of Cosmic Keys. And then those people complain when their hastily spent cash is "invalidated" with a rebalance patch. I've been paying a sub for three and a half years now, and bought a bunch of Cryptic Points, Atari Tokens and ZEN on multiple occasion. I should have been crying bloody murder whenever they touched my characters' powers, because those characters are the reason I play.
But that would be silly, because if paying for something means that it is immune to rebalancing, then this isn't a game I want to play.
Personally, I don't think I am lazy or less intelligent by opening lockboxes and getting gear that way by spending stipend and real money.
I would rather the Development Team put their skills to work on upping the challenge generally than nerfing purchased gear and loosing a sizeable portion of the player base in the process.
They are relatively new and have done some -amazing- changes in a short space of time. There is no need to ruin this trend by doing this to dodge/avoid.
As for crit, the majority of my roster has gained around 5-7% crit chance, and I know that some will have lost a fair amount of appeal.
I think instead of messing with defense mechanics, create or alter NPC's to be brought UP to player standard.
The main issue for me was that mobs were not updated on ON ALERT. They remained the same so have become no threat at all.
I remember testing a boss on PTS (Firewing) who had the ability to nerf dodge/avoid. <--THAT is what I would rather see than a real gear NERF.
Including NPC's who can combat defences, rather than outright removing them. Have a look at Gravitar, she is the first step in the right direction for bosses IMO, Rakshasa could even be considered a good example thanks to his attention grabbing/placate style worms which can switch attention to them and off of him.
Mobs should call for help more, have tricky powers to deal with etc.
I stand by the idea that nerfing gear is a bad decision, it will render a large number of builds useless.
My take is: Leave this idea alone (regarding dodge/avoid), fix bugs like exploits (5 spec trees etc), increase permanent content and re-visit mob AI and pet AI, fix those up and make NPC's more of a challenge than throw away disposable items. Cybermind's minions were a good example, a little too tough but slightly lower in power levels and apply this to mobs and you will have tougher mobs.
Have you considered reducing down time between NPC attacks? The cycle of the attacks? The charge times they have? The debuffs they have access to?
Example:
PSI (Yeah, you -knew- I was going to pick these poor ex-mentalists)
PSI Initiate - Basically stands there with a troll face and fires pink lines at you for entire life span.
PSI Neophyte - Runs up to you slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and throws a ball at you then runs up and slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and...
PSI Proctor - Does some weird ballet moves with single Psi Blade for entire life span.
PSI Hypnotist - Attempts to placate you which can be negated by having INT or using a PBAoE which kills them anyway. Deals modest damage with a PSI blast and PSI Wave which can KB, oh and has access to "Ego Drain" (Psi Lash). Probably the only mob member with some form of variety in it's attack pattern.
PSI Agent - A more challenging foe with access to stun, knockback, root and ranged knocking powers.
PSI Enforcer - Has a serious thing for chains and claws. Not even remotely thematic.
PSI Agent and PSI Hypnotist are probably the only two who pose a level of threat to anything.
All of these could do with buffs. Think theme. These are mentalists we are dealing with here, sure they aren't super villains but they have been enriched with a psychic serum, granting them various abilities.
PSI Initiate - should apply a debuff which reduces you resistance to Ego Damage by 5% and stacks up twice via Ego Drain. Should also be able to attract fellow/nearby members to a fight scene using Telepathy, so they can continue attacking you without moving and more members appear. Also needs an attack rotation which doesn't revolve around a rank 1 energy builder.
PSI Neophyte - Should be able to attack more often, gaining an actual increase in damage to targets affected by PSI Initiate's debuffing. Should take less damage as they have Psionic Armor.
PSI Proctor - Description says as HP gets lower they become more deadly...I cannot see any damage increase as HP gets lower. Have them manifest dual blades which root and deal decent tick damage. (Possibly have their PSI Blade increase in rank as their HP gets lower)
PSI Hypnotist - Decrease time between debuffing, attacks and knockbacks. Add in the ability to heal and shield their allies with Empathic Healing and Psionic Reflective Shield.
PSI Agent - Have the knock down (rock throw) deal crushing and double Ego damage. Multi Arm Fighting is horrible on this NPC, it should do ego damage along side crushing since in one hit you are being hit by a psionic arm and a physical arm. Also allow them to have some sort of holding power, like a Psionic Prison and to be able to shield themselves with a psionic block which reduces all forms of damage to them by a significant amount (except Ego Damage).
PSI Enforcers - Should exist in open world, and in missions to protect a super villain or something. Either alongside a PSI Agent or instead of them. Get rid of the claws/chains generic stuff, bring in some real brain power. Perhaps grant them TK or something.
All of these guys should be able to telepathically summon members in a certain radius almost automatically.
Something like that would be more welcome in my opinion.
EDIT: As much as I HATE (cannot emphasise this enough) to give them credit, because I HATE THEM. Look at VIPER. They have some semblance of structure with their debuffing and attack sequences which make them annoying. Brick Busters and Pulson Tech (wow I hate Pulson vs PFF) are the two more annoying things VIPER has access to. VIPER have a form of structure in attacking and are one of the more developed mobs.
Hunter-Patriots used to have a psychic link which whenever one took damage a portion of it would ping to another member who would be alerted and start attacking. PSI should use something similar although this should only proc once per member so as not to kill them off too quickly.
Stuff like that to revitalize mob encounters would be great.
Yes, because every theme'd build is a crit based dodge monster utilizing a mechanic that makes them easily as resilient as any tank.
Get real.
Also, for this STILL bickering about these 'going to live', pull your heads outta your butts. You really think that they would suddenly glue this to live, especially when they asked, on these very threads, in the first post, for feedback concerning them?
Man, the forums really are the endgame of CO. These mobs have terrible AI.
Also, for this STILL bickering about these 'going to live', pull your heads outta your butts. You really think that they would suddenly glue this to live, especially when they asked, on these very threads, in the first post, for feedback concerning them?
Man, the forums really are the endgame of CO. These mobs have terrible AI.
My reaction is based upon what I have read and what I am seeing and testing on PTS.
I am aware that *something* is not right with the fixes. Once they are set right and we can see the -intended- versions, then I can put forth a substantial opinion. I am just reacting to news personally.
I do think however this sort of change and use of dev time would be better spent making content and NPC mobs more intelligent.
If mobs can reduce dodge or super villains etc, that is absolutely fine by me as long as it is capped at a certain amount but enough to make tanks, healers and CCer needed again.
I can count on one hand the number of feedback posts between the two pts threads. The rest contain no useful information and are merely serving as bloat.
I can count on one hand the number of feedback posts between the two pts threads. The rest contain no useful information and are merely serving as bloat.
Fantastic story. This is a feedback thread, and no one named you as the arbiter of what constitutes feedback. If Cryptic wants to implement changes that have economic impact, then they must consider all facets.
Fantastic story. This is a feedback thread, and no one named you as the arbiter of what constitutes feedback. If Cryptic wants to implement changes that have economic impact, then they must consider all facets.
Cool story though.
I didn't think butthurt was a factor of game mechanics...
False. Those surveys are paid for with real money by the companies sponsoring them. If you don't see the point, that's not my problem, that is yours. This is not a complicated economic issue, no matter how you try to spin it.
By that theory, every single item in the game is paid for, so no issue for you to worry about even more buyable gear being introduced.
Slept on this a bit and thought it over. This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but I'm not going back through 21(!) pages to see if it has.
From my perspective, the issue Cryptic's attempting to address is that as of right now, everyone and their mother is stacking dodge and crit chance via mods/gear. This is understandable: people like seeing big numbers on bad guys, and little red numbers on themselves and teammates. Stacking dodge and crit with the current system is an easy way to make your character more effective. Smart builders will even synergize their powers with their gear to further push dodge/crit to the point that one will have the effects of LR while running, say, WotW, or stacking a little Dex to make their Massacres hit just a bit harder (not ragging on Massacre - bestial in general could use a little more love).
This creates a situation where certain stats and powers aren't as attractive anymore unless you want their specs/theme; there isn't much point in taking dexterity for critical hits when you can stack crits with gear, and LR doesn't look nearly as attractive when it's possible to stack enough dodge via gear to make Quarry into a defensive passive with an offensive passive's boost, or if you can take invulnerability and stack dodge to make yourself nigh-unkillable.
I don't think reducing the cap is the way to go in rectifying this issue; it strikes me as using a nuke to get rid of termites. I've read in this thread that the stats gained via gear should be halved, which I like, but I think it should go further and be brought down to a quarter. Once LR's current scaling issue is looked at (seriously people, it staying 10% at R3 should be telling you it's a bug), reducing dodge/crit from gear down to a quarter will go towards rectifying the issue and allow Dex and LR to keep their respective niches.
Only saying a quarter because I'm used to seeing ridiculous dodge/crit numbers; if reducing by that much is too severe when considering the average player, I'll consider conceding the point.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
I don't believe in forced teaming. a tank, healer, CCer should NEVER be absolutely needed for anyone.
I never suggested -forced- teaming.
However, should other play styles be sidelined because everyone and their mother's sister's cousin can tank?
No not really. Even though I am against the dodge changes (in their current form), I believe variety is the spice of life.
If such a variety can be obtained by buffing NPC mob encounters like I suggested then by all means go for it. I'd love to be -wanted- again in teams not because of my DPS but because of my ability to absorb damage or my ability to lockdown troublesome foes or heal damage.
It's difficult for me to explain but I'd like to have a "place" in a team be it, RDPS, MDPS, Healer, CCer or Tank. Yes I know that isn't how things roll in CO but if NPC's could be buffed then that -may- start a change in what is needed in a build and may cause people to team up more.
[The Spirit of Justice!] - Collectable mod which can be fused with your existing and BOUND Legion/Heroic Gear to turn it into JUSTICE GEAR, complete with your current mods from the previous Gear.
Drops from:
Cosmics, Legendaries and Lairs.
^ Something like that I would be all for Justice Gear, would give my entire roster a reason to run out and do things. If I am having to spend money on it and removing and re gearing etc..why would I bother to do it if in maybe late 2014 something else comes out like:
- Super Justice Gear!
- Cosmic Gear!
etc...where does it end?
At the moment, Legion does it for me. Some have pointed out this seems to be a nerf in order to get us to buy new gear...if this is the case that's pretty low IMO.
Dodge stacking is an issue, not gonna lie, it should affect those with over (maybe) a certain percentage of dodge? Or maybe cap dodge at 95%. OR buff NPCs so they can interact with our defenses, reducing them in an encounter, you know, like how VIPER fully invert Personal Force Field so instead of 95% absorb and 5% bleed through, under the effects of Pulson Tech Personal Force Field Passive (Defensive) flips to 5% damage absorbed and 95% bleed through to HP.
PFF is the perfect example of a passive which can be fully exploited by NPCs (VIPER) and can be removed entirely (including Field Surge, Energy Refraction and Protection Field) with one power in a tap, namely Energy Storm, which is accessible to players. (Yes I still count Energy Storm removing PFF and Field Surge as a bug. Nothing except death or me unslotting it should be able to remove my passive)
By that theory, every single item in the game is paid for, so no issue for you to worry about even more buyable gear being introduced.
Of course not. The issue is when people think that spending real money means that gear will never need to be upgraded.
It's not a theory. You could deploy a million strawmen, and it would not devalue the dollar. What is the gear being upgraded for? A level cap raise? Or simply a means to generate more revenue?
The last 2 are obviously rhetorical questions. I've said my piece, you guys can toss around as many adjectives to describe customers and opinions as you like. Cryptic will likely implement this regardless of feedback. Gonna enjoy the rest of the anniversary.
I didn't think butthurt was a factor of game mechanics...
*except for comments like this.
I'm sorry if I hurt your mother's butt, but now you are really getting off topic. What your mother and I do in the privacy of our own home (and I would remind you we let you live in the basement because we pity you) is absolutely none of your business.
I'm sorry if I hurt your mother's butt, but now you are really getting off topic. What your mother and I do in the privacy of our own home (and I would remind you we let you live in the basement because we pity you) is absolutely none of your business.
nothing wrong with everyone tanking exsisting content. make us NEW stuff we cant tank. don't nerf us so we feel weak and helpless with the powered up toons we spent months building.
I think there is, we can only tank existing content because of the lack of challenge they provide. Have a look back at my suggestion here..
Personally, I don't think I am lazy or less intelligent by opening lockboxes and getting gear that way by spending stipend and real money.
I would rather the Development Team put their skills to work on upping the challenge generally than nerfing purchased gear and loosing a sizeable portion of the player base in the process.
They are relatively new and have done some -amazing- changes in a short space of time. There is no need to ruin this trend by doing this to dodge/avoid.
As for crit, the majority of my roster has gained around 5-7% crit chance, and I know that some will have lost a fair amount of appeal.
I think instead of messing with defense mechanics, create or alter NPC's to be brought UP to player standard.
The main issue for me was that mobs were not updated on ON ALERT. They remained the same so have become no threat at all.
I remember testing a boss on PTS (Firewing) who had the ability to nerf dodge/avoid. <--THAT is what I would rather see than a real gear NERF.
Including NPC's who can combat defences, rather than outright removing them. Have a look at Gravitar, she is the first step in the right direction for bosses IMO, Rakshasa could even be considered a good example thanks to his attention grabbing/placate style worms which can switch attention to them and off of him.
Mobs should call for help more, have tricky powers to deal with etc.
I stand by the idea that nerfing gear is a bad decision, it will render a large number of builds useless.
My take is: Leave this idea alone (regarding dodge/avoid), fix bugs like exploits (5 spec trees etc), increase permanent content and re-visit mob AI and pet AI, fix those up and make NPC's more of a challenge than throw away disposable items. Cybermind's minions were a good example, a little too tough but slightly lower in power levels and apply this to mobs and you will have tougher mobs.
Have you considered reducing down time between NPC attacks? The cycle of the attacks? The charge times they have? The debuffs they have access to?
Example:
PSI (Yeah, you -knew- I was going to pick these poor ex-mentalists)
PSI Initiate - Basically stands there with a troll face and fires pink lines at you for entire life span.
PSI Neophyte - Runs up to you slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and throws a ball at you then runs up and slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and...
PSI Proctor - Does some weird ballet moves with single Psi Blade for entire life span.
PSI Hypnotist - Attempts to placate you which can be negated by having INT or using a PBAoE which kills them anyway. Deals modest damage with a PSI blast and PSI Wave which can KB, oh and has access to "Ego Drain" (Psi Lash). Probably the only mob member with some form of variety in it's attack pattern.
PSI Agent - A more challenging foe with access to stun, knockback, root and ranged knocking powers.
PSI Enforcer - Has a serious thing for chains and claws. Not even remotely thematic.
PSI Agent and PSI Hypnotist are probably the only two who pose a level of threat to anything.
All of these could do with buffs. Think theme. These are mentalists we are dealing with here, sure they aren't super villains but they have been enriched with a psychic serum, granting them various abilities.
PSI Initiate - should apply a debuff which reduces you resistance to Ego Damage by 5% and stacks up twice via Ego Drain. Should also be able to attract fellow/nearby members to a fight scene using Telepathy, so they can continue attacking you without moving and more members appear. Also needs an attack rotation which doesn't revolve around a rank 1 energy builder.
PSI Neophyte - Should be able to attack more often, gaining an actual increase in damage to targets affected by PSI Initiate's debuffing. Should take less damage as they have Psionic Armor.
PSI Proctor - Description says as HP gets lower they become more deadly...I cannot see any damage increase as HP gets lower. Have them manifest dual blades which root and deal decent tick damage. (Possibly have their PSI Blade increase in rank as their HP gets lower)
PSI Hypnotist - Decrease time between debuffing, attacks and knockbacks. Add in the ability to heal and shield their allies with Empathic Healing and Psionic Reflective Shield.
PSI Agent - Have the knock down (rock throw) deal crushing and double Ego damage. Multi Arm Fighting is horrible on this NPC, it should do ego damage along side crushing since in one hit you are being hit by a psionic arm and a physical arm. Also allow them to have some sort of holding power, like a Psionic Prison and to be able to shield themselves with a psionic block which reduces all forms of damage to them by a significant amount (except Ego Damage).
PSI Enforcers - Should exist in open world, and in missions to protect a super villain or something. Either alongside a PSI Agent or instead of them. Get rid of the claws/chains generic stuff, bring in some real brain power. Perhaps grant them TK or something.
All of these guys should be able to telepathically summon members in a certain radius almost automatically.
Something like that would be more welcome in my opinion.
EDIT: As much as I HATE (cannot emphasise this enough) to give them credit, because I HATE THEM. Look at VIPER. They have some semblance of structure with their debuffing and attack sequences which make them annoying. Brick Busters and Pulson Tech (wow I hate Pulson vs PFF) are the two more annoying things VIPER has access to. VIPER have a form of structure in attacking and are one of the more developed mobs.
Hunter-Patriots used to have a psychic link which whenever one took damage a portion of it would ping to another member who would be alerted and start attacking. PSI should use something similar although this should only proc once per member so as not to kill them off too quickly.
Stuff like that to revitalize mob encounters would be great.
That is what I'd rather see than gear changes.
Gear changes? No.
More challenging and engaging content? Yes!
Survival and challenge whilst keeping existing gear the same and having an in game mod to upgrade it (which can be obtained through lairs etc)? Yes!
Uber tanking with insane dodge stacking? No.
Dodge tanks should still be able to do that. Those who have balanced out between dodge/avoid and defense ratings shouldn't be penalized. All builds are different. A universal nerf is going to affect everyone differently.
Anyways, current iteration isn't at 100% working order so I am told, so until something concrete comes along and we can -really- see what they want to change, I'll be watching.
because with an offensive passive you are toast unless you have decent dodge.
Except before spec trees and significant baked-in defense on gear, people were able to run offensive passives just fine. Even the nebulous "theme" builds that everyone's throwing out there as completely incapable of doing anything without having dodge/avoid stacked from gear.
Even Quarry and Way of the Warrior.
The enemies haven't gotten appreciably stronger since then, except in a few edge cases involving Alerts where you're literally forced to have other players with you.
Offensive passives don't "require" additional dodge stacked on top to work. Period. Even if it's a "theme" build. Otherwise no one would have ever leveled/used any character with them before the On Alert changes enabled you to do so without a major hit to your stats.
And considering most people don't bother slotting dodge/avoid until they hit 40 and can put it into SCR purples or Legion gear, tell me again how nerfing the dodge/avoid from gear is going to unjustly hurt "theme" builds with offensive passives that are just trying to stumble their way through the majority of the game's content? (Since most of said content is before the level at which you can get dodge/avoid on gear.)
As for the crit changes (or more specifically the Offense changes)...Crit was made entirely too important as a damage-buffing mechanic. Look at all the Brick-related threads that have been literally begging for a viable alternative to crits since On Alert and the new toggles/Enrage nerf went live.
I'd even go so far to argue that, after a certain point, Crit Severity should be mutually-exclusive with +Offense. But hopefully opportunity costs on gear/mods/specs will help with that.
And for all the people saying "oh, don't change stuff, give us new content/new mechanics"...
This isn't about being able to tank current content. It's about there being absolutely no useful and appreciable stat diversity in gearing at 40 (and before).
Making new content that takes our current gearing paradigm into effect means that anything created before this date is a cakewalk, and anything created after this date is the in-game equivalent of an Australia-level evolutionary deathmatch.
Do you really want to relegate "casuals" and "theme" builders to only being able to play all the old content?
They need to flatten out the discrepancies, then balance the entire thing. You can't just ignore that the system's broken and then stack new content on top of it that's built off the premise of the system being completely broken.
New content which, as the past few years have shown, they don't have the resources to properly implement in the first place.
*Note:"Theme" is in quotes all throughout this because most people's definition of a "theme" is "only using the powers I say are appropriate". It's too wishy-washy a definition to be useful in balance discussions.
If you disagree? Find me a situation where Human Torch can spit Fire Breath, or build a Superman analogue that both fits within a single power framework (since "Frankenbuilds" are such a cardinal sin) and adequately represents the breadth of his powers in a popular media incarnation (say the DCAU Animated Series or Man of Steel).
And while I'm ranting...
If you want real build diversity? Give us more power slots that are locked to "boring" powers, and make more thematically-appropriate versions of them. Heals, active defenses, energy unlocks, stuff like that. You can even reuse the existing coding for some of the non-implemented powers.
again I don't believe in changing the exsisting content, as its hard enough for new players as is. think of the blade AT's think of offensive AT's in general. its surprisingly hard when you are new. we don't need to scare people away by making the stuff we have now harder. the only reason there's a lack of challenge for us is we know how to make uber builds. not everyone can do that. nor should you need any certain build or combo of powers to do well. this is CO. WoW type build choice limitations has no place here.
New players aren't going to be using Avoid Purples with Dodge mods.
Small point (almost lost in here) but Ravenforces remark about [Spirit of Justice mod] has such a lot of merit.
This could really kickstart lair running again, right now there's no point in more content or adjusting lairs coz everyone's too busy alerting. If there was serious gain to be had from lair running however, not just Q coz a lair takes time and effort compared to an alert we might see all that unused content coming back.
_____________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Small point (almost lost in here) but Ravenforces remark about [Spirit of Justice mod] has such a lot of merit.
This could really kickstart lair running again, right now there's no point in more content or adjusting lairs coz everyone's too busy alerting. If there was serious gain to be had from lair running however, not just Q coz a lair takes time and effort compared to an alert we might see all that unused content coming back.
[The Spirit of Justice!] - Collectable mod which can be fused with your existing and BOUND Legion/Heroic Gear to turn it into JUSTICE GEAR, complete with your current mods from the previous Gear.
Drops from:
Cosmics, Legendaries and Lairs.
:biggrin:
I'd like to see it, it certainly would quell the ensuing storm of complaints if it was put on LIVE in this fashion.
sage you are not a good person to listen to when it comes to things like this. you don't care about balance, you care about giving your Uber toons some more challenge which will only screw the rest of us. this is what I've gathered from reading your posts at least. this seems to be your idea of balance, balance for you, screw all the non min maxxers. :mad::mad:
Whilst sage and I tend not to agree on stuff (from what I remember) his point here has merit, the idea of building new and powerful stuff on an old system is akin to why mobs are laughable right now in comparison to pre On Alert Power levels.
What I disagree with him on is the level of nerfing to dodge/avoid. Gear ideally (IMO) should stay as is. (Don't want to use the "we bought it that way" argument but unfortunately it has a point in this instance. People complained with the same argument with the prototype jets when they were nerfed and it got it reverted back.) Anything granting above 95% active dodge without using MD should be affected, for example.
I would also disagree about you saying he doesn't care about balance, most people do, but we all just have different views on it and how it should be achieved.
that suggestion can only work if it applies to heroic gear as well. since lockboxes are terrible and gear like that you should work for IN GAME CONTENT not by lockboxes even if you can get keys from grinding q. stop the gamble money grab. there are more honest ways to make money, like actually attracting more paying customers.
Did you actually -read- my suggestion or just comment?
EDIT: I love this game and it has for the most part a great community, I'd hate to have to leave because of an overly harsh and rushed out mechanics change. Such a delicate change should be THOROUGHLY tested to ensure there are no unusual kinks in the change (like gear and passives not granting added dodge chance)
sage you are not a good person to listen to when it comes to things like this. you don't care about balance, you care about giving your Uber toons some more challenge which will only screw the rest of us. this is what I've gathered from reading your posts at least. this seems to be your idea of balance, balance for you, screw all the non min maxxers. :mad::mad:
Excuse me?
Yes, surely I only want the game to be catered to my particular character's level of power. Because I wrote that (outdated and badly formatted, use Bluhman's new one instead) spec tree guide only as a way to buff up my "Uber toons".
Not to help anyone learn the basics of the game. And certainly not all "new players" and "casuals". You know, the ones you keep using as a shield to defend your own opinions.
And my Blade and Inferno (which I leveled even though I'm still subbed) are surely going to be steamrolling everything.
Oh wait, no. I'm being sarcastic because the assertion's ludicrous.
You can't suddenly say to people "hey, all the new content is going to be too hard because it's built around a certain type of gear". That's what making "new content we can't tank" would do. And that really would screw over anyone who hasn't had the chance to get that gear.
Fixing the interaction of flat dodge chance/avoid vs dodge rating/avoid rating would probably go quite a ways towards addressing the current problem, though it still doesn't do much to make anything other than dodge/avoid gear a no-brainer at 40.
That's my primary problem. You're choosing "incorrectly" if you don't pick a certain type of gear at 40. And that's the type of thing that really does hurt people who don't know the system that well, especially since gear is time-locked behind dailies (or lockboxes) and mods are expensive.
I was within a month of starting the game, before I'd ever spent a dime on it.
But I'm a min/maxer, and I spend as much time researching the game and builds as I do playing it.
I meant that more as in "you have to get at least one character to 40 before you start using the Silver Champion Recognition" gear. And then play that character for a bit in solo content to get the SCR for the gear.
And since you're new, you probably won't knock that out in a day. Therefore you've got at least a couple of days' (if you're crazy and spam alerts non-stop) or more likely maybe a couple month's worth of experience (if you take it slow and do non-Alert content) under your belt.
And since the game's way of steering you to the stuff to get said gear is so horrible, you probably asked someone for help along the way. Which usually gets coupled with asking for advice.
Which means you likely end up with at least a good idea of what you should buy.
Alternatively, you broke out the credit card and got Legion gear, or ground out mountains of Questionite (meaning more in-game experience). Which means you have more of an incentive to do research before spending your earnings.
My problem with that is that there are objectively good and bad gearing choices at 40, and unless you're told, it's hard to know which are which.
Buffing offense, nerfing crit severity a bit, and reining in dodge/avoid would go a long way towards making less of those gear choices objectively bad by comparison.
Balancing the content around the current setup of objectively good and bad gearing choices is not a good thing to do.
that's not what I was suggesting. I meant 2 tracks of new content. some that is solo oriented, and some that is more on the line of therakiel's temple, where unique GAMEPLAY MECHANICS make it tougher and/or require teaming.
What, in all the time you've been playing, makes you think that's ever likely to happen with the current level of dev resources?
They can't even revamp the current lairs without them breaking, due to how fragile the codebase is.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice, but they're targeting the stuff they're actually able to change.
If they could implement a functional and usable difficulty slider that goes from "1. I have a passive, but it's not equipped" all the way up to "10. I have all Legion gear and I could win an all-in Bash with none of it equipped", that'd work.
But then you get into the problem with rewards, and "why should I bother doing this" and etc.
They need to hit the discrepancy between builds first, if they want to go forward. And flattening some of the curve by addressing the outperforming gear needs to be the first step, I think.
Though I would suggest that they not send this to Live in pieces. Get the gear fixed, make avoidance/severity more reasonable with spec/passive options, then throw in something to make the lower-performing stuff work better.
I think buffing defense on gear would be the best way to do this, as it's not possible to gear up a character without having at least some defense on gear. I'm a fan of starting with gear because it's something that everyone has. It's neutral-enough that it's not going to completely break anyone's theme.
Once they have a solid baseline that everyone can hit and no one can easily trivialize through gear and a few power choices, then they can start making content, and be assured that it's not going to lock anyone out of contributing.
I have not had a chance to look through all the comments here. Also, I could not ever get dodge focus builds to work to save my life. I am a tank who layers defensive types over each other for theme primarily. I also have no clue how some people were getting 1k crits off attacks. I dream of having that one day.
Checked my main, Nexus, attack damage and critical change and such. I use my plasma beam to build up locus on dummies (thanks for the super villain dummies btw) and noticed something strange.
While my damage was a bit lower my crit was about 20 pts higher than what is on live. My offense is about 315 and I only get a +12 damage bonus...Not liking that.
Finally got to look at the Justice gear. Seams okay Kinda like it. Wish that debugger gave chests of Q or mods of all types for free so I could actually test the gear. From what I can gather this gear seams to be heading to the Questionite store as its stat bonuses fall in line with the gear bonuses there. Would rather have it in the Sliver champion recognition store or something along those lines.
main issue here is these changes screw anyone who has a build at lvl40 that requires a bit of dodge to survive. RIP free choice of passive eh?
I think rather than basing opinions on this broken iteration ,wait for the new one which reveals exactly what they are trying to implement, then conclude whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
They need to hit the discrepancy between builds first, if they want to go forward. And flattening some of the curve by addressing the outperforming gear needs to be the first step, I think.
Discrepancy is largely caused (IMO) by the freeform system itself, (NOTE: I AM NOT IN ANY SENSE SUGGESTING WE GET RID OF IT.) and the amount of variety and flexibility there is.
Someone who uses Invuln isn't going to have a tough time against NPC's vs someone with Electric Form with the same HP, because all the powers are different.
There is a stark difference between messing with NPC + Player interactions, powers and the effects they can grant vs messing with gear.
I agree getting over 100% dodge is pretty silly. Not gonna lie, but the version we are all seeing now, is so messed up, our opinions of it are -bound- to be skewed.
Though I would suggest that they not send this to Live in pieces. Get the gear fixed, make avoidance/severity more reasonable with spec/passive options, then throw in something to make the lower-performing stuff work better.
OMG....we agree :biggrin: (As for crit chance, I don't know exactly what is going on but my healer with no crit at all (base is 0.1% chance) has gained 3.8% chance from no where.)
Once they have a solid baseline that everyone can hit and no one can easily trivialize through gear and a few power choices, then they can start making content, and be assured that it's not going to lock anyone out of contributing.
I think the current base for dodge is fine but, if 17.6% or whatever is going to be the base for level 40s a cap of 90% or so dodge should be implemented.
Since Justice Gear is blatantly coming to LIVE. I -really- hope they implement it via the suggestion I made earlier, or it's not going to catch on very fast, people just won't bother.
Some people already complain about Heroic to Legion and now with the introduction of Justice...what is the idea/need for this? Will this gear grow with us or something as you plan to increase the level cap or is it just there to make money?
Finally got to look at the Justice gear. Seams okay Kinda like it. Wish that debugger gave chests of Q or mods of all types for free so I could actually test the gear. From what I can gather this gear seams to be heading to the Questionite store as its stat bonuses fall in line with the gear bonuses there. Would rather have it in the Sliver champion recognition store or something along those lines.
Questionite Store wouldn't be to bad. Can chase after it for free by doing content (or even converting monthly stipend) or spend money directly to access it sooner.
Much better than Lockboxes.
Hell, sell it in Q Store and put it in lockboxes The choices!
I think any changes to the current dodge system, aside from buffing LR's terrible dodge chance for a passive that has dodge as its only defense, is a bad thing.
there are other ways to challenge players. you need not nerf them into the ground. just make new stuff for them to be challenged with. as I've said.
You'll find this iteration is slightly borked. You seem to be consistently missing this point myself and several others have made.
Anyways, two things from me...
1) An idea to implement Justice Gear effectively than simply relying on a select few who will buy keys and providing such gear to a much wider audience (which may increase player retention as they see it is not all about P2W)
[The Spirit of Justice!] - Collectable mod which can be fused with your existing and BOUND Legion/Heroic Gear to turn it into JUSTICE GEAR, complete with your current mods from the previous Gear.
Drops from:
Cosmics, Legendaries and Lairs.
And a lil support from someone who noticed it! :biggrin:
Small point (almost lost in here) but Ravenforce's remark about [Spirit of Justice mod] has such a lot of merit.
This could really kickstart lair running again, right now there's no point in more content or adjusting lairs coz everyone's too busy alerting. If there was serious gain to be had from lair running however, not just Q coz a lair takes time and effort compared to an alert we might see all that unused content coming back.
2) An alternative method to dodge nerf/something which (IMO) players will appreciate
Then again all feedback given should bear this in mind:
This is an experimental potential future change that will not be part of the bug fix release. We are interested in how these adjustments feel at all levels of gameplay.
From the OP and from the Latest PTS Iteration thread.
I apologise for anything harsh I may have said regarding this change...I just feel strongly about such a change. I am glad this is just a "potential future change".
However with Justice Gear please consider what I have said about implementation, it would be a great way to get people to do lairs and generally team up and play CO, rather than sitting around gambling for gear.
Comments
I was pointing out that the discussion in this thread should take into account that nothing in this version is final.
Do we want developers to look at existing mechanics and powers? I think so. Do we want them to introduce new stuff? Yeah....though hopefully it's not in a lockbox.
So when they ask for our feedback on the above, let's see if we can stay away from calling them scam artists. Clearly people are unhappy with changes to dodge.
How would you want it changed? If at all. Maybe we can give the devs some ideas about what to do?
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Irrelevant. People did spend money to acquire Legion Gear. Legion gear could never have been acquired w/out someone spending money in the first place. We can argue about whether or not it should have been done, but it would be pointless. The genie has been out of the bottle for ages.
*Vixy- My beef is with the potential changes to gear. I think if people feel that if certain powers need to be brought in line then fine. It's done all the time, I can accept that. But that would take a far more nuanced approach than what is being proposed here.
edit: as someone pointed out pages back, the Justice Gear was referred to as upcoming, not something being considered as a potential.
And for this game to exist and all of us to be here on these forums and discuss it, someone had to spend money on the game. I don't see the point you are making.
Also, no, nobody needs to spend a dime to buy Legion Gear. ZEN can be earned for free via surveys or monthly stipends. Your argument that Legion Gear requires money to change hands to exist is wrong.
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
1.) Dodge formulas need to be reconciled/balanced between powers and gear that give flat dodge % vs. Dodge Rating (in particular, Lightning Reflexes needs fixed).
2.) The current changes seem likely to affect more players at the lower end of the curve (e.g. basic Heroic gear with 40% dodge) than at the high end.
Once all of the details are worked out, I can't say that I have a huge problem with the changes, especially if they allow for more viable gearing paths (e.g. Offense vs Crits, Defense vs. Dodge), and more importantly if they lead to more content.
To the people making lots of assumptions about new gear and already threatening to quit (again), I have to say: grow up. MMO's are hamsterwheels, not races to a destination. There is no guarantee, implicit or otherwise, that your best gear now will always be the best gear available. I do agree with you that putting essential gear in lockboxes is crappy, and the definition of Pay-To-Win, but there is no evidence (yet) to support the notion that's what they plan to do.
HOWEVER, I do think that a lot of people would find these kinds of changes easier to swallow if Cryptic made a case as to: a.) why these changes are necessary, and b.) what positive outcomes they will lead to down the road. Personally, I'm pretty convinced that these efforts are a rather positive indication for the game; I don't think Cryptic would put this kind of effort into bug fixes and game balance if they didn't have longer term plans. But it would certainly be nice to hear this from them.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Yes, because every theme'd build is a crit based dodge monster utilizing a mechanic that makes them easily as resilient as any tank.
Get real.
Also, for those STILL bickering about these 'going to live', pull your heads outta your butts. You really think that they would suddenly glue this to live, especially when they asked, on these very threads, in the first post, for feedback concerning them?
Man, the forums really are the endgame of CO. These mobs have terrible AI.
Deliciously nutritious!
False. Those surveys are paid for with real money by the companies sponsoring them. If you don't see the point, that's not my problem, that is yours. This is not a complicated economic issue, no matter how you try to spin it.
Personally, I don't think I am lazy or less intelligent by opening lockboxes and getting gear that way by spending stipend and real money.
I would rather the Development Team put their skills to work on upping the challenge generally than nerfing purchased gear and loosing a sizeable portion of the player base in the process.
They are relatively new and have done some -amazing- changes in a short space of time. There is no need to ruin this trend by doing this to dodge/avoid.
As for crit, the majority of my roster has gained around 5-7% crit chance, and I know that some will have lost a fair amount of appeal.
I think instead of messing with defense mechanics, create or alter NPC's to be brought UP to player standard.
The main issue for me was that mobs were not updated on ON ALERT. They remained the same so have become no threat at all.
I remember testing a boss on PTS (Firewing) who had the ability to nerf dodge/avoid. <--THAT is what I would rather see than a real gear NERF.
Including NPC's who can combat defences, rather than outright removing them. Have a look at Gravitar, she is the first step in the right direction for bosses IMO, Rakshasa could even be considered a good example thanks to his attention grabbing/placate style worms which can switch attention to them and off of him.
Mobs should call for help more, have tricky powers to deal with etc.
I stand by the idea that nerfing gear is a bad decision, it will render a large number of builds useless.
My take is: Leave this idea alone (regarding dodge/avoid), fix bugs like exploits (5 spec trees etc), increase permanent content and re-visit mob AI and pet AI, fix those up and make NPC's more of a challenge than throw away disposable items. Cybermind's minions were a good example, a little too tough but slightly lower in power levels and apply this to mobs and you will have tougher mobs.
Have you considered reducing down time between NPC attacks? The cycle of the attacks? The charge times they have? The debuffs they have access to?
Example:
PSI (Yeah, you -knew- I was going to pick these poor ex-mentalists)
PSI Initiate - Basically stands there with a troll face and fires pink lines at you for entire life span.
PSI Neophyte - Runs up to you slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and throws a ball at you then runs up and slaps you with a pink hand, stands around, backs up and...
PSI Proctor - Does some weird ballet moves with single Psi Blade for entire life span.
PSI Hypnotist - Attempts to placate you which can be negated by having INT or using a PBAoE which kills them anyway. Deals modest damage with a PSI blast and PSI Wave which can KB, oh and has access to "Ego Drain" (Psi Lash). Probably the only mob member with some form of variety in it's attack pattern.
PSI Agent - A more challenging foe with access to stun, knockback, root and ranged knocking powers.
PSI Enforcer - Has a serious thing for chains and claws. Not even remotely thematic.
PSI Agent and PSI Hypnotist are probably the only two who pose a level of threat to anything.
All of these could do with buffs. Think theme. These are mentalists we are dealing with here, sure they aren't super villains but they have been enriched with a psychic serum, granting them various abilities.
PSI Initiate - should apply a debuff which reduces you resistance to Ego Damage by 5% and stacks up twice via Ego Drain. Should also be able to attract fellow/nearby members to a fight scene using Telepathy, so they can continue attacking you without moving and more members appear. Also needs an attack rotation which doesn't revolve around a rank 1 energy builder.
PSI Neophyte - Should be able to attack more often, gaining an actual increase in damage to targets affected by PSI Initiate's debuffing. Should take less damage as they have Psionic Armor.
PSI Proctor - Description says as HP gets lower they become more deadly...I cannot see any damage increase as HP gets lower. Have them manifest dual blades which root and deal decent tick damage. (Possibly have their PSI Blade increase in rank as their HP gets lower)
PSI Hypnotist - Decrease time between debuffing, attacks and knockbacks. Add in the ability to heal and shield their allies with Empathic Healing and Psionic Reflective Shield.
PSI Agent - Have the knock down (rock throw) deal crushing and double Ego damage. Multi Arm Fighting is horrible on this NPC, it should do ego damage along side crushing since in one hit you are being hit by a psionic arm and a physical arm. Also allow them to have some sort of holding power, like a Psionic Prison and to be able to shield themselves with a psionic block which reduces all forms of damage to them by a significant amount (except Ego Damage).
PSI Enforcers - Should exist in open world, and in missions to protect a super villain or something. Either alongside a PSI Agent or instead of them. Get rid of the claws/chains generic stuff, bring in some real brain power. Perhaps grant them TK or something.
All of these guys should be able to telepathically summon members in a certain radius almost automatically.
Something like that would be more welcome in my opinion.
EDIT: As much as I HATE (cannot emphasise this enough) to give them credit, because I HATE THEM. Look at VIPER. They have some semblance of structure with their debuffing and attack sequences which make them annoying. Brick Busters and Pulson Tech (wow I hate Pulson vs PFF) are the two more annoying things VIPER has access to. VIPER have a form of structure in attacking and are one of the more developed mobs.
Hunter-Patriots used to have a psychic link which whenever one took damage a portion of it would ping to another member who would be alerted and start attacking. PSI should use something similar although this should only proc once per member so as not to kill them off too quickly.
Stuff like that to revitalize mob encounters would be great.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Wait so you are against feedback? Ok.........
My reaction is based upon what I have read and what I am seeing and testing on PTS.
I am aware that *something* is not right with the fixes. Once they are set right and we can see the -intended- versions, then I can put forth a substantial opinion. I am just reacting to news personally.
I do think however this sort of change and use of dev time would be better spent making content and NPC mobs more intelligent.
If mobs can reduce dodge or super villains etc, that is absolutely fine by me as long as it is capped at a certain amount but enough to make tanks, healers and CCer needed again.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
I can count on one hand the number of feedback posts between the two pts threads. The rest contain no useful information and are merely serving as bloat.
Fantastic story. This is a feedback thread, and no one named you as the arbiter of what constitutes feedback. If Cryptic wants to implement changes that have economic impact, then they must consider all facets.
Cool story though.
I didn't think butthurt was a factor of game mechanics...
Deliciously nutritious!
By that theory, every single item in the game is paid for, so no issue for you to worry about even more buyable gear being introduced.
Of course not. The issue is when people think that spending real money means that gear will never need to be upgraded.
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
From my perspective, the issue Cryptic's attempting to address is that as of right now, everyone and their mother is stacking dodge and crit chance via mods/gear. This is understandable: people like seeing big numbers on bad guys, and little red numbers on themselves and teammates. Stacking dodge and crit with the current system is an easy way to make your character more effective. Smart builders will even synergize their powers with their gear to further push dodge/crit to the point that one will have the effects of LR while running, say, WotW, or stacking a little Dex to make their Massacres hit just a bit harder (not ragging on Massacre - bestial in general could use a little more love).
This creates a situation where certain stats and powers aren't as attractive anymore unless you want their specs/theme; there isn't much point in taking dexterity for critical hits when you can stack crits with gear, and LR doesn't look nearly as attractive when it's possible to stack enough dodge via gear to make Quarry into a defensive passive with an offensive passive's boost, or if you can take invulnerability and stack dodge to make yourself nigh-unkillable.
I don't think reducing the cap is the way to go in rectifying this issue; it strikes me as using a nuke to get rid of termites. I've read in this thread that the stats gained via gear should be halved, which I like, but I think it should go further and be brought down to a quarter. Once LR's current scaling issue is looked at (seriously people, it staying 10% at R3 should be telling you it's a bug), reducing dodge/crit from gear down to a quarter will go towards rectifying the issue and allow Dex and LR to keep their respective niches.
Only saying a quarter because I'm used to seeing ridiculous dodge/crit numbers; if reducing by that much is too severe when considering the average player, I'll consider conceding the point.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
I never suggested -forced- teaming.
However, should other play styles be sidelined because everyone and their mother's sister's cousin can tank?
No not really. Even though I am against the dodge changes (in their current form), I believe variety is the spice of life.
If such a variety can be obtained by buffing NPC mob encounters like I suggested then by all means go for it. I'd love to be -wanted- again in teams not because of my DPS but because of my ability to absorb damage or my ability to lockdown troublesome foes or heal damage.
It's difficult for me to explain but I'd like to have a "place" in a team be it, RDPS, MDPS, Healer, CCer or Tank. Yes I know that isn't how things roll in CO but if NPC's could be buffed then that -may- start a change in what is needed in a build and may cause people to team up more.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
If this is an actual upgrade by means of an item easily acquirable in game then sure:
^ Something like that I would be all for Justice Gear, would give my entire roster a reason to run out and do things. If I am having to spend money on it and removing and re gearing etc..why would I bother to do it if in maybe late 2014 something else comes out like:
- Super Justice Gear!
- Cosmic Gear!
etc...where does it end?
At the moment, Legion does it for me. Some have pointed out this seems to be a nerf in order to get us to buy new gear...if this is the case that's pretty low IMO.
Dodge stacking is an issue, not gonna lie, it should affect those with over (maybe) a certain percentage of dodge? Or maybe cap dodge at 95%. OR buff NPCs so they can interact with our defenses, reducing them in an encounter, you know, like how VIPER fully invert Personal Force Field so instead of 95% absorb and 5% bleed through, under the effects of Pulson Tech Personal Force Field Passive (Defensive) flips to 5% damage absorbed and 95% bleed through to HP.
PFF is the perfect example of a passive which can be fully exploited by NPCs (VIPER) and can be removed entirely (including Field Surge, Energy Refraction and Protection Field) with one power in a tap, namely Energy Storm, which is accessible to players. (Yes I still count Energy Storm removing PFF and Field Surge as a bug. Nothing except death or me unslotting it should be able to remove my passive)
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
It's not a theory. You could deploy a million strawmen, and it would not devalue the dollar. What is the gear being upgraded for? A level cap raise? Or simply a means to generate more revenue?
The last 2 are obviously rhetorical questions. I've said my piece, you guys can toss around as many adjectives to describe customers and opinions as you like. Cryptic will likely implement this regardless of feedback. Gonna enjoy the rest of the anniversary.
*except for comments like this.
I'm sorry if I hurt your mother's butt, but now you are really getting off topic. What your mother and I do in the privacy of our own home (and I would remind you we let you live in the basement because we pity you) is absolutely none of your business.
Your logical fallacy is Ad-Hominem.
Deliciously nutritious!
I think there is, we can only tank existing content because of the lack of challenge they provide. Have a look back at my suggestion here..
That is what I'd rather see than gear changes.
Gear changes? No.
More challenging and engaging content? Yes!
Survival and challenge whilst keeping existing gear the same and having an in game mod to upgrade it (which can be obtained through lairs etc)? Yes!
Uber tanking with insane dodge stacking? No.
Dodge tanks should still be able to do that. Those who have balanced out between dodge/avoid and defense ratings shouldn't be penalized. All builds are different. A universal nerf is going to affect everyone differently.
Anyways, current iteration isn't at 100% working order so I am told, so until something concrete comes along and we can -really- see what they want to change, I'll be watching.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Except before spec trees and significant baked-in defense on gear, people were able to run offensive passives just fine. Even the nebulous "theme" builds that everyone's throwing out there as completely incapable of doing anything without having dodge/avoid stacked from gear.
Even Quarry and Way of the Warrior.
The enemies haven't gotten appreciably stronger since then, except in a few edge cases involving Alerts where you're literally forced to have other players with you.
Offensive passives don't "require" additional dodge stacked on top to work. Period. Even if it's a "theme" build. Otherwise no one would have ever leveled/used any character with them before the On Alert changes enabled you to do so without a major hit to your stats.
And considering most people don't bother slotting dodge/avoid until they hit 40 and can put it into SCR purples or Legion gear, tell me again how nerfing the dodge/avoid from gear is going to unjustly hurt "theme" builds with offensive passives that are just trying to stumble their way through the majority of the game's content? (Since most of said content is before the level at which you can get dodge/avoid on gear.)
As for the crit changes (or more specifically the Offense changes)...Crit was made entirely too important as a damage-buffing mechanic. Look at all the Brick-related threads that have been literally begging for a viable alternative to crits since On Alert and the new toggles/Enrage nerf went live.
I'd even go so far to argue that, after a certain point, Crit Severity should be mutually-exclusive with +Offense. But hopefully opportunity costs on gear/mods/specs will help with that.
And for all the people saying "oh, don't change stuff, give us new content/new mechanics"...
This isn't about being able to tank current content. It's about there being absolutely no useful and appreciable stat diversity in gearing at 40 (and before).
Making new content that takes our current gearing paradigm into effect means that anything created before this date is a cakewalk, and anything created after this date is the in-game equivalent of an Australia-level evolutionary deathmatch.
Do you really want to relegate "casuals" and "theme" builders to only being able to play all the old content?
They need to flatten out the discrepancies, then balance the entire thing. You can't just ignore that the system's broken and then stack new content on top of it that's built off the premise of the system being completely broken.
New content which, as the past few years have shown, they don't have the resources to properly implement in the first place.
*Note: "Theme" is in quotes all throughout this because most people's definition of a "theme" is "only using the powers I say are appropriate". It's too wishy-washy a definition to be useful in balance discussions.
If you disagree? Find me a situation where Human Torch can spit Fire Breath, or build a Superman analogue that both fits within a single power framework (since "Frankenbuilds" are such a cardinal sin) and adequately represents the breadth of his powers in a popular media incarnation (say the DCAU Animated Series or Man of Steel).
And while I'm ranting...
If you want real build diversity? Give us more power slots that are locked to "boring" powers, and make more thematically-appropriate versions of them. Heals, active defenses, energy unlocks, stuff like that. You can even reuse the existing coding for some of the non-implemented powers.
New players aren't going to be using Avoid Purples with Dodge mods.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
This could really kickstart lair running again, right now there's no point in more content or adjusting lairs coz everyone's too busy alerting. If there was serious gain to be had from lair running however, not just Q coz a lair takes time and effort compared to an alert we might see all that unused content coming back.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
[The Spirit of Justice!] - Collectable mod which can be fused with your existing and BOUND Legion/Heroic Gear to turn it into JUSTICE GEAR, complete with your current mods from the previous Gear.
Drops from:
Cosmics, Legendaries and Lairs.
:biggrin:
I'd like to see it, it certainly would quell the ensuing storm of complaints if it was put on LIVE in this fashion.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Whilst sage and I tend not to agree on stuff (from what I remember) his point here has merit, the idea of building new and powerful stuff on an old system is akin to why mobs are laughable right now in comparison to pre On Alert Power levels.
What I disagree with him on is the level of nerfing to dodge/avoid. Gear ideally (IMO) should stay as is. (Don't want to use the "we bought it that way" argument but unfortunately it has a point in this instance. People complained with the same argument with the prototype jets when they were nerfed and it got it reverted back.) Anything granting above 95% active dodge without using MD should be affected, for example.
I would also disagree about you saying he doesn't care about balance, most people do, but we all just have different views on it and how it should be achieved.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Did you actually -read- my suggestion or just comment?
EDIT: I love this game and it has for the most part a great community, I'd hate to have to leave because of an overly harsh and rushed out mechanics change. Such a delicate change should be THOROUGHLY tested to ensure there are no unusual kinks in the change (like gear and passives not granting added dodge chance)
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Excuse me?
Yes, surely I only want the game to be catered to my particular character's level of power. Because I wrote that (outdated and badly formatted, use Bluhman's new one instead) spec tree guide only as a way to buff up my "Uber toons".
Not to help anyone learn the basics of the game. And certainly not all "new players" and "casuals". You know, the ones you keep using as a shield to defend your own opinions.
And my Blade and Inferno (which I leveled even though I'm still subbed) are surely going to be steamrolling everything.
Oh wait, no. I'm being sarcastic because the assertion's ludicrous.
You can't suddenly say to people "hey, all the new content is going to be too hard because it's built around a certain type of gear". That's what making "new content we can't tank" would do. And that really would screw over anyone who hasn't had the chance to get that gear.
Fixing the interaction of flat dodge chance/avoid vs dodge rating/avoid rating would probably go quite a ways towards addressing the current problem, though it still doesn't do much to make anything other than dodge/avoid gear a no-brainer at 40.
That's my primary problem. You're choosing "incorrectly" if you don't pick a certain type of gear at 40. And that's the type of thing that really does hurt people who don't know the system that well, especially since gear is time-locked behind dailies (or lockboxes) and mods are expensive.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
I was within a month of starting the game, before I'd ever spent a dime on it.
But I'm a min/maxer, and I spend as much time researching the game and builds as I do playing it.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I meant that more as in "you have to get at least one character to 40 before you start using the Silver Champion Recognition" gear. And then play that character for a bit in solo content to get the SCR for the gear.
And since you're new, you probably won't knock that out in a day. Therefore you've got at least a couple of days' (if you're crazy and spam alerts non-stop) or more likely maybe a couple month's worth of experience (if you take it slow and do non-Alert content) under your belt.
And since the game's way of steering you to the stuff to get said gear is so horrible, you probably asked someone for help along the way. Which usually gets coupled with asking for advice.
Which means you likely end up with at least a good idea of what you should buy.
Alternatively, you broke out the credit card and got Legion gear, or ground out mountains of Questionite (meaning more in-game experience). Which means you have more of an incentive to do research before spending your earnings.
My problem with that is that there are objectively good and bad gearing choices at 40, and unless you're told, it's hard to know which are which.
Buffing offense, nerfing crit severity a bit, and reining in dodge/avoid would go a long way towards making less of those gear choices objectively bad by comparison.
Balancing the content around the current setup of objectively good and bad gearing choices is not a good thing to do.
What, in all the time you've been playing, makes you think that's ever likely to happen with the current level of dev resources?
They can't even revamp the current lairs without them breaking, due to how fragile the codebase is.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice, but they're targeting the stuff they're actually able to change.
If they could implement a functional and usable difficulty slider that goes from "1. I have a passive, but it's not equipped" all the way up to "10. I have all Legion gear and I could win an all-in Bash with none of it equipped", that'd work.
But then you get into the problem with rewards, and "why should I bother doing this" and etc.
They need to hit the discrepancy between builds first, if they want to go forward. And flattening some of the curve by addressing the outperforming gear needs to be the first step, I think.
Though I would suggest that they not send this to Live in pieces. Get the gear fixed, make avoidance/severity more reasonable with spec/passive options, then throw in something to make the lower-performing stuff work better.
I think buffing defense on gear would be the best way to do this, as it's not possible to gear up a character without having at least some defense on gear. I'm a fan of starting with gear because it's something that everyone has. It's neutral-enough that it's not going to completely break anyone's theme.
Once they have a solid baseline that everyone can hit and no one can easily trivialize through gear and a few power choices, then they can start making content, and be assured that it's not going to lock anyone out of contributing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
I have not had a chance to look through all the comments here. Also, I could not ever get dodge focus builds to work to save my life. I am a tank who layers defensive types over each other for theme primarily. I also have no clue how some people were getting 1k crits off attacks. I dream of having that one day.
Checked my main, Nexus, attack damage and critical change and such. I use my plasma beam to build up locus on dummies (thanks for the super villain dummies btw) and noticed something strange.
While my damage was a bit lower my crit was about 20 pts higher than what is on live. My offense is about 315 and I only get a +12 damage bonus...Not liking that.
Finally got to look at the Justice gear. Seams okay Kinda like it. Wish that debugger gave chests of Q or mods of all types for free so I could actually test the gear. From what I can gather this gear seams to be heading to the Questionite store as its stat bonuses fall in line with the gear bonuses there. Would rather have it in the Sliver champion recognition store or something along those lines.
I think rather than basing opinions on this broken iteration ,wait for the new one which reveals exactly what they are trying to implement, then conclude whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Discrepancy is largely caused (IMO) by the freeform system itself, (NOTE: I AM NOT IN ANY SENSE SUGGESTING WE GET RID OF IT.) and the amount of variety and flexibility there is.
Someone who uses Invuln isn't going to have a tough time against NPC's vs someone with Electric Form with the same HP, because all the powers are different.
There is a stark difference between messing with NPC + Player interactions, powers and the effects they can grant vs messing with gear.
I agree getting over 100% dodge is pretty silly. Not gonna lie, but the version we are all seeing now, is so messed up, our opinions of it are -bound- to be skewed.
OMG....we agree :biggrin: (As for crit chance, I don't know exactly what is going on but my healer with no crit at all (base is 0.1% chance) has gained 3.8% chance from no where.)
I think the current base for dodge is fine but, if 17.6% or whatever is going to be the base for level 40s a cap of 90% or so dodge should be implemented.
Since Justice Gear is blatantly coming to LIVE. I -really- hope they implement it via the suggestion I made earlier, or it's not going to catch on very fast, people just won't bother.
Some people already complain about Heroic to Legion and now with the introduction of Justice...what is the idea/need for this? Will this gear grow with us or something as you plan to increase the level cap or is it just there to make money?
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Questionite Store wouldn't be to bad. Can chase after it for free by doing content (or even converting monthly stipend) or spend money directly to access it sooner.
Much better than Lockboxes.
Hell, sell it in Q Store and put it in lockboxes
You'll find this iteration is slightly borked. You seem to be consistently missing this point myself and several others have made.
Anyways, two things from me...
1) An idea to implement Justice Gear effectively than simply relying on a select few who will buy keys and providing such gear to a much wider audience (which may increase player retention as they see it is not all about P2W)
[The Spirit of Justice!] - Collectable mod which can be fused with your existing and BOUND Legion/Heroic Gear to turn it into JUSTICE GEAR, complete with your current mods from the previous Gear.
Drops from:
Cosmics, Legendaries and Lairs.
And a lil support from someone who noticed it! :biggrin:
2) An alternative method to dodge nerf/something which (IMO) players will appreciate
Buffing mobs to player standard/tweaking their AI (the example given is PSI)
Then again all feedback given should bear this in mind:
From the OP and from the Latest PTS Iteration thread.
I apologise for anything harsh I may have said regarding this change...I just feel strongly about such a change. I am glad this is just a "potential future change".
However with Justice Gear please consider what I have said about implementation, it would be a great way to get people to do lairs and generally team up and play CO, rather than sitting around gambling for gear.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________