Comparing Lightning to the TK Ranged, using an exactly similarly statted build with exactly the same buffs available (r3 imbue (non buffed) and r3 lnl).
LA + Ball Lightning (+ Chain Lightning)
TK Lance + TK Strike
So the "obliterating all other sets except PA" is worded a bit to strong. Lightning is a good set, and single target dps is on par with other strong sets, but claiming it's much stronger than any other set is just wrong. Also note that ruptures (except melee TK) are bugged in that they do not work with a DUC, so if that is ever fixed TK Ranged will catch up to that last 100 dps too.
It's also funny to see when TK was getting changes, no one was complaining about the dps. But now that it's lightning, suddenly it's a huge issue and people that have never bothered to post any parses in previous reviews feel the need to spend huge effort trying to proof how OP things are now.
It's also funny to see when TK was getting changes, no one was complaining about the dps. But now that it's lightning, suddenly it's a huge issue and people that have never bothered to post any parses in previous reviews feel the need to spend huge effort trying to proof how OP things are now.
To be clear: I've been skeptical of the 'OP' claim (which is why I disputed w/ Kamo about those results in the first place), and since I couldn't parse until very recently I've belabored over comparing base numbers so much because of it (w/o being able to parse, that's the next best thing ya can do). Kamo has been the outspoken one there and is indeed using parses to get to that conclusion. But to be fair, you've tested against at least one other set, and I don't think Kamo has shown his parses for other sets. Also, were you using a heavy End vs. a heavy Dex setup for that comparison?
edit: I guess its also worth noting that while Elec has been one of the best ranged sets for raw dmg, ranged TK was also quite strong there too historically. Most people just didn't play as or care about the latter as much (for w/e reason; I guess cause TK Blades takes some interest away).
Regardless, is Ball of Lit also not benefiting from DUC? Since its a sep entity I'm not sure that can be changed, though.
Maybe we're just tired of seeing more and more streams of lightning as time goes by.
Well, after this revamp we'll prob see more for a time :x
I'd be a bit more interested in using Power Source and End stacking for things like FC or PA builds or whatever energy-hungry stuff one can cook up. Granted, one has to be fine w/ throwing in what's likely some Elec stuff in there, but its an interesting option.
I always try to test with a similar stat setup when comparing sets. For both parses I used ego/dex/rec (lightning parse had 7 higher total stat points due to messing about with dual stat mods).
Ball lightning doesn't work with a DUC, but Lance rupture is a much higher dps than BL, so it would improve dps much more if that bug ever gets fixed.
Okay, thanks for more info, Aqia. I had other gaming plans today, but I suppose I could test out parsing some 100ft stuff today (assuming I got it working as I think I did).
Comparing Lightning to the TK Ranged, using an exactly similarly statted build with exactly the same buffs available (r3 imbue (non buffed) and r3 lnl).
LA + Ball Lightning (+ Chain Lightning)
TK Lance + TK Strike
Like I said, you can always do less damage. The comparison I am making is how far a given set, rotation, etc....can be pushed.
So the "obliterating all other sets except PA" is worded a bit to strong. Lightning is a good set, and single target dps is on par with other strong sets, but claiming it's much stronger than any other set is just wrong.
Other strong sets? Like what...where are all these other strong sets? Its damage more than on par. When the comparison is between the maximum you can get with lightning vs other 100ft sets it obliterates all other sets except PA.
It's also funny to see when TK was getting changes, no one was complaining about the dps. But now that it's lightning, suddenly it's a huge issue and people that have never bothered to post any parses in previous reviews feel the need to spend huge effort trying to proof how OP things are now.
Has nothing to do with TK vs Lightning. If I was able to get nearly 7k DPS with TK at 100ft then yeah I would post those parses as well so that the devs can decide whether or not that's OP.
> @kamokami said: > Like I said, you can always do less damage. The comparison I am making is how far a given set, rotation, etc....can be pushed.
It's actually isn't, that is only important if you want to show off. There is no difference when adding some more AOs and such to one set or the other. But if you want to discuss testing etiquette, just posting numbers is completely meaningless. What you want to know is how one set compares to others.
If there is some obvious set specific synergy, you want to add that of course, but the amount of additional buffs you use for your parse is not important at all as long as they are somewhat close to what player tend to use and you keep them similar when testing different things. And I am fairly sure my live build (that I have used for all parses in previous set reviews) is far closer to what people use when actually playing the game than your parse build.
If you're interested only in how much a set can be pushed you wouldn't be asking for its base damage to be reduced, you'd be asking for a way to prevent it from being pushed too high without hurting everyone else.
It's actually isn't, that is only important if you want to show off.
Not at all. It is perfectly valid to see how far something can be pushed vs something else. I'd assume that's taken into consideration when balancing decisions are made. It would be ridiculous to completely ignore it.
There is no difference when adding some more AOs and such to one set or the other. But if you want to discuss testing etiquette, just posting numbers is completely meaningless.
All the same AOs and damage buffs are being used in all cases.
And I am fairly sure my live build (that I have used for all parses in previous set reviews) is far closer to what people use when actually playing the game than your parse build.
What "people normally use" is something that the devs know more about than either of us. Which is why I am leaving the judgement of the relevance of these results to them.
I am saying however, that unlike LArc, other 100ft sets do not come close to 7k DPS. I am not interested in debating how relevant or irrelevant that is....that's up to the devs to decide.
Note: I know that Spellcaster is more efficient since it counts as an Enchantment already, but that requires swapping to an Int focus- which I didn't want to do here. Also didn't want to go out-of-set on the attacks (ie. use Wisp). If Wisp's Hexed adv gets fixed and you swap to that, it would prob boost dps a bit over using the blast.
Note: I couldn't just charge-spam Defile w/o bottoming out on energy or greatly changing stats, so I threw some IBlasts in there to make energy stable.
Also, on that note.. BUG: Wisp's Cursed adv still doesn't refresh its own Hexed debuff if its already applied.
- That's all for now. I think ranged TK w/ Lance may be a bit over-tuned overall, considering its dps, rel lower energy use, and mobility during TK Strike. AR maybe could be a bit better for its more convoluted (more RNG and 50ft) setup. Also keep in mind that Darkness and Infernal's parses are rel impacted by not having high uptime on Find the Mark vs. the rapid-hitting setups. Whether Elec is still over-tuned or not I guess depends on balancing parameters.. though LArc's higher energy use, self-root, and lack of universal buffs/debuffs (ex. Fear or Illumination) or CC when doing this setup should be considered, imo.
FC.31.20170802.21
[*] Changed the Outburst spec in Endurance to buff base damage.
That's awesome! Definatly a BUFF for the END spec
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Changed the Outburst spec in Endurance to buff base damage.
This is an interesting turn of events. I hope this means that, at some point, Recovery can see similar treatment so that it becomes a somewhat-respectable PSS option as well.
Increased the cost on the Ultimate Power! advantage on Electrical Current to 3 points.
This is a bit curious. While it's certainly a cool advantage, it really just turns this power into an energy builder that does more damage. I can't really think of any reason why someone would take this advantage even at 2 points, except for maybe during the leveling process.
Am I missing something about why this advantage is worth 3 points?
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
This is a bit curious. While it's certainly a cool advantage, it really just turns this power into an energy builder that does more damage. I can't really think of any reason why someone would take this advantage even at 2 points, except for maybe during the leveling process.
Am I missing something about why this advantage is worth 3 points?
Well, part of the reason end builders are generally avoided in the first place is due to their low dps, so having something that returns similar energy while also doing more dmg could become a balancing problem. Its also an AoE where most end builders are single target.
I mean, this comes on the heels of Outburst being fixed/good now, so one could get more mileage out of something like it than before.
I suppose that people who like to mini-max/have the highest possible dps/want to be at the top of the cosmic charts will do more-or-less what kamo has outlined, and others not concerned with those issues will do other things. At least the Devs now have a clear understanding of where the changes will inevitably lead now.
I'd rather the game not be balanced around what a min/maxer can do to abuse the game.
Bingo!
That's what it has to be based around, because anyone can do that the moment they decide to.
"No no it's fine we'll base the tournament around boxing gloves even though we have all these machine guns laying around that anybody could pick up and use whenever they wish... no no, I'm sure the majority will continue to use boxing gloves because they're stylish!"
If we based things off what min maxers do with their min maxed BUILDS is the discussion not neccesarily gear. As you can see I provided parses with maxed gear which were very mediocre, becuase I dont try and break the game all the time.
... you are aware that gear is part of a build, yes?
When comparing dps, gear is only important in that it should allow for all synergies and interactions to work properly. Once you get to that point it's, for balancing, it's meaningless to try add even more buffs to squeeze out higher dps.
At that point things are just "base damage" x "total damage bonus multipliers". Comparing powers at that point should always end up with difference in dps at a similar percentage.
If dps buffs end up working better for 1 set at than for another, there is either some significant synergy (which we should be able to identify), a bug (which we should be able to identify), or a testing error.
Eh, at this point I just want to know what that big min-maxed diff is between Elec and other sets in particular. If its comparing LArc to other setups that have other advs (less energy use, movement, better group utility), then I dun really care as much. So you have a non-PA option for pure 100ft dps that doesn't take as much micro-management, but still has non-dps related drawbacks. Okay, and.. so what? Ranged TK still seems powerful as hell and is even easier, PA is ofc there to be the top dog for raw dps, and who knows what any future revamped set could do.
- And just to sate my curiosity, I parsed PA to see just where it would fall, using my testing set previously.
Whelp..
First, revisiting Elec real quick after the Ball Lit nerf: = 3903 dps, w/ stable energy
..Not much diff. The slight change was prob lost in the rng factors at play here.
~2-slot PA~ - Rotation- turn on Minigun and Wrist Rockets, re-activate when toggles end. = 3324 dps, w/ stable energy
So.. not much shy of the dps for various other 100ft sets I tested. Perhaps a bit behind, but not by much. Micro Muni w/ adv could maybe net a bit better instead of using the Hand slot, but its still impressive either way for just using 2 slots.
~3-slot PA~ -Rotation- turn on all 3 attack toggles, re-activate when they end. (opener: setup and stand in CoAP) = 5018 dps, w/ stable energy
Sure, you pretty much need to outsource for extra energy but... wow. This is while ranged PA has no lockdown while dpsing, and Micro Muni and Minigun w/ adv will also AoE/Splash to any nearby targets. There's a skill cap and energy barrier for sure, but once ur over that then you are handsomely rewarded. This is ~25-30% more single-target dps than my Ranged TK or Elec parses.
I'd rather the game not be balanced around what a min/maxer can do to abuse the game.
Bingo!
That's what it has to be based around, because anyone can do that the moment they decide to.
"No no it's fine we'll base the tournament around boxing gloves even though we have all these machine guns laying around that anybody could pick up and use whenever they wish... no no, I'm sure the majority will continue to use boxing gloves because they're stylish!"
It beats basing the entire tournament around the heaviest machine gun that a start naked person can carry, never mind a more rational setup involves a little body armor and a bottle of water to help recover in between opponents.
-
Formerly @Seschat pre PWEmerger. @Seschat on the Titan boards.
It beats basing the entire tournament around the heaviest machine gun that a stark naked person can carry, never mind a more rational setup involves a little body armor and a bottle of water to help recover in between opponents.
If someone with a hilariously OP build can trivialize the game, I don't really care. Most people aren't going to have those builds. I'm willing to bet most people are fine with those min/max'd builds showing up in group content because it makes those battles run smoother.
If min/max'd builds were the standard, we wouldn't have endless b----ing with bad cosmic runs or people not having decent DPS for checks or bringing the "wrong" build.
...why the hell is Electrocute a capstone power option on an AT built for DPS? Why the hell is the other capstone option for an AT built for DPS a threat wipe? Why do I now have to pick between Lightning Storm, a great ranged AoE that's a vital part of the AT, or Gigabolt, an appropriate capstone alpha strike/rapid tap DPS power?
Oh, right. Freeform min/maxers with OP builds need to be nerfed, so let's fiddle with an AT and completely ignore the inherent issues of freeforms always being able to make OP builds because of the very nature of freeform construction.
...why the hell is Electrocute a capstone power option on an AT built for DPS? Why the hell is the other capstone option for an AT built for DPS a threat wipe? Why do I now have to pick between Lightning Storm, a great ranged AoE that's a vital part of the AT, or Gigabolt, an appropriate capstone alpha strike/rapid tap DPS power?
Oh, right. Freeform min/maxers with OP builds need to be nerfed, so let's fiddle with an AT and completely ignore the inherent issues of freeforms always being able to make OP builds because of the very nature of freeform construction.
You have some legit feedback on the power layout, but the swipe to min-maxing FFs feels like a boogeyman when the balancing ultimately lies in the hands of devs and not players, and the ATs new layout was prob mulled over internally even before all these powers were finalized for a pass. (and when it comes to a dev, imo Kaiz has a better grip on balancing these new powerset reviews than CO devs had in the past, since she can be very numbers-focused and methodical)
Fair point. I'm just tired of hearing the "FF build X is OP so Y AT needs to be messed with because BALANCE!" explanation every time an AT gets changed. I've been playing this game since launch and it's inevitably the predominant "reason" for some of the poorer changes made.
And this time the changes hit me harder than usual, as my main toon is a Tempest at cap. Tempest is supposed to be a classic glass cannon: high DPS and low durability. You survive by killing all the things faster than they can kill you, and making me choose between the vital-for-groups Lightning Storm and the thematically-appropriate-and-potent-even-in-endgame alpha strike Gigabolt is just a huge bummer. Gigabolt was perfectly positioned before as the capstone power, and the replacements in the new progression are just bizarre choices that are wholly pointless.
A threat wipe for a DPS AT is fine, but as the capstone power? By that point, you should be killing everything quickly and efficiently before they can put you in danger; threat wipes are best at the early-to-middle of the progression, when you're still leveling and thus far squishier. And my other choice for capstone is now a mediocre-at-best AoE snare? Electrocute is already out of place in a DPS AT, but at least before it was at a point in the progression where it wasn't harmful. You just pick Ball Lightning and go about your day.
Maybe I'm missing something, and these power choices are actually brilliant. But as far as I can see, with Tempest locked in Ranged Damage role, all crowd control powers will be so weak as to be useless. Especially against any kind of endgame content, which is what a capstone power is supposed to help you with. Power Source and Electric Current are good additions to this AT; EC will help with leveling in particular, as will Chain Lightning. I always had trouble with groups of more than 2 enemies at once when leveling my Tempest until I got Lightning Storm, so EC should make that much smoother. And finally giving the Electricity powerset its own form in Power Source is great! Scaling it with END in particular should make for a nice boost to overall DPS, which is what Tempest is all about.
...and that just makes the capstone choices all the more baffling. At least make Gigabolt one of the capstone choices for those of us who want to make their Tempest the biggest glass cannon they can; don't force these useless, out of place powers on us.
I agree with @bluecanary99, most ATs recently reviewed had more choices than the mere 3 present in the new progression of the Tempest, please at least allow us to have another choice.
Useful Guides about Archetypes and General Gameplay of the Game Click Here
Bug: The initial debuff refresh on ball lighting fails when you are at high range. At >60 or 70 feet the initial refresh does not work, but refresh on the last hit does work.
Yea, well typically when a new AT is released on the PTS and/or is revamped, the first slew of powers can get changed after some feedback and/or review. Its good to put that feedback in, though. Just saying that its not unheard of to see the ATs get re-adjusted. Sometimes Kaiz or other devs put out stuff as a rough 'first draft' for us to play around with.
Looking at the proposed changes..
1: Electric Bolt 1: Chain Lightning 6: Electrical Current 8: Electric Form 11: Thunderstrike OR Ball Lightning 14: Power Source 17: Lightning Arc 21: Electric Shield 25: Ionic Reverberation 30: Lightning Storm OR Giga Bolt 35: Electric Sheath 40: Electrocute OR Blinding Light
I imagine Kaiz put both higher tier AoEs at the same level so you didn't potentially have to wait till lvl 40 to have a better AoE. So the capstone choice may seem like a bummer, but at the same time potentially waiting that long for Gigabolt or LStorm could be a bummer to some players. LStorm is good, but Elec Current is good as well (less dps, but can have more reach as a cone and has a stun adv and/or crazy energy-gaining adv, and allows movement while casting).
I guess they could swap the powers at lvl 30 and lvl 40, and maybe add a choice of Sparkstorm and/or Storm Summoner lvl 6, so you get the chance to have a threat wipe earlier, the final choice is a more 'powerful' AoE, and you still can pick from a diff AoE early on.
I think the min-max argument has validity but not in the way that bluecanary99 means. A common complaint with AT progression used to be about when you get damage powers. While I personally feel big hitters do make thematic sense as capstones, some powersets lacked a good dps power outside of that move and thus added some difficulties to leveling. In the better cases, brand new powers get created and they help fill in middle levels. However, many players complained about the style of the older builds and a few style changes shifted in how things got designed. While some of the AT revamps have been great, some are like the Tempest in that the final choices are really weird. I think the first time this happened was with the Blade AT but it was forgivable due to the boost in survivability (since the Blade was glass cannon but melee).
Speaking of survivability, I personally like having crowd control on my dps character since I like having a "get off me" button or some way to get a quick respite. Of course, that comes down to tastes and why it's disappointing that the AT progression was posted so late in the testing.
"Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."
Crowd control would be fine if Tempest was meant to do it. But it's not. Ranged Damage role will always make crowd control powers wasted powers, and ATs can't change role to get around that. It's what made Spark Storm useless; you're gonna use a flight variant as your main TP if you're a Tempest so you can zap jerks from range more efficiently. If mobs get close enough to you for Spark Storm to get used, you're either under level 10 or you're Tempesting wrong. Electrical Current is a much better option, since it's a small AoE at a decent range, which helps survivability by killing jerks faster. Same with putting Chain Lightning as the starter and bumping Lightning Arc up the progression. Those are smart changes that will help TREMENDOUSLY with leveling.
Making a snare and a threat wipe your capstone powers for an AT that's all about ranged DPS is just cruel.
Make it Ball Lightning or Blinding Light at lvl 11 and Gigabolt or Thunderstrike at 40. A threat wipe could actually be useful then, and you could retcon it once you hit cap for more DPS. Gigabolt's use as an AoE is pretty negligable, so it makes sense making it single-target like Lightning Arc; you've already got better AoEs in Electrical Current and Lightning Storm, and you don't really need a 3rd AoE on top of those unless you want to specialize in AoEs. Then the choice at cap is between a strong single-target alpha strike/tap-spam for endgame content, or another AoE, in case you REALLY want to be an AoE beast.
And really, that's what the power choices should be for Tempest: AoE vs single-target. That way you can pick an AoE that fits what you want if you wanna specialize in picking out one guy in the mob and ruining his day, or being THE DPS factory for boss fights. And if you wanna be the AoE monster, you could do that instead; then you're doing crowd control without actually doing crowd control, and thus not taking the -20% hit for being in Ranged Damage role. You'd even still have Lightning Arc for single-target purposes.
The goal of the recent archetype updates is to make them level easier, have fewer redundant choices and fewer 'bad' choices that can be made.
I understand that the level 40 power choices may not seem that 'grand', but allowing damage archetypes to access better area effect/single target moves earlier on makes the leveling experience much more smooth.
Electrocute and Blinding Flash aren't critical to the archetype, but offer some utility. Thunderstrike has an advantage that adds a 50% damage boost against held targets. Electrocute can apply the -res debuff via an advantage, creating a decent burst combination.
If that isn't appealing, a threat wipe is pretty handy in the late game when you're more likely to be teaming with people.
Utility is fine and welcome, but making it the capstone of a DPS archetype feels like a big mistake. Especially if the capstone choice is between 2 utility powers; one of those powers should be a DPS power to provide a good array of choice. At least then, those of us who like Tempest as a straight DPS machine don't feel like we're denied one of our vital powers. As it is, it feels like I'm being forced to pick between 2 powers I'll never use because they don't fit the playstyle of the AT, while losing a power I use all the time in Gigabolt. Because when I log in and have to retcon my Tempest, I'm going to pick Lightning Storm over Gigabolt because it's more useful in more situations; I can rely on Lightning Arc exclusively for single-target DPS if I need to, and I can promise that most Tempest players will think similarly.
If you're trying to eliminate "bad" choices, this really isn't the way to go. It's forcing a VERY bad choice instead.
I look into the list and it makes perfect sense. EB is always there, Chain Lightning is the blast, Electrical Current is starter aoe, Electric Form is passive form, Thunderstrike or Ball Lightning both applies negatives, Power Source is toggle form, Shield is shield and Ionic Reverberation is EU, Lightning Storm or Giga Bolt are grand aoe, Electric Sheath is ao, and Electrocute or Blinding Light is utility. Everything is in order. I'm just amazed there isn't a heal via Electrical Siphon in there.
Oh and I would pick Gigabolt over Lightning Storm because you don't get rooted easily like Storm and it a VERY powerful burst, which is kind of important in places like a cosmic fight.
Utility is fine and welcome, but making it the capstone of a DPS archetype feels like a big mistake. Especially if the capstone choice is between 2 utility powers; one of those powers should be a DPS power to provide a good array of choice. At least then, those of us who like Tempest as a straight DPS machine don't feel like we're denied one of our vital powers. As it is, it feels like I'm being forced to pick between 2 powers I'll never use because they don't fit the playstyle of the AT, while losing a power I use all the time in Gigabolt. Because when I log in and have to retcon my Tempest, I'm going to pick Lightning Storm over Gigabolt because it's more useful in more situations; I can rely on Lightning Arc exclusively for single-target DPS if I need to, and I can promise that most Tempest players will think similarly.
If you're trying to eliminate "bad" choices, this really isn't the way to go. It's forcing a VERY bad choice instead.
Well, to a degree you also just have to accept that ATs aren't meant to give you everything you want, necessarily. There should be some pull to make you want to sub or buy an FF slot if you want more than what an AT has to offer. You seem pretty attached to having both Gigabolt as a capstone and still having LStorm, but I think perhaps you may be too attached to that idea. I say, if you want Gigabolt.. well, now you have it even earlier, and replacing LStorm w/ Elec Current may not be as huge an issue as you'd think (considering LStorm's old dps was nerfed down anyways- that's never coming back).
I guess its also because the revamped or new ATs want you to sample some of the new powers, instead of relying too much on what the old AT used. In this case, if Kaiz doesn't want you to have too much redundancy, then allowing a build that could saddle you with Current, LStorm, and Gigabolt (w/ Chain Lit's chaining) all at once is going pretty deep into the 'redundant' territory.
Well that is kind of the idea. If the player want to have actual choices, they would get a FF slot, although unless you're gold, the FF slot is its own slot. The AT alone should be fine for doing all the endgame content, but its doesn't have the lack of DR the last version did. He will feel weaker because of this.
I'll admit, I'm gonna need some serious time in the Powerhouse testing out the new progression; Current could very well prove good enough to be a decent replacement for LStorm, allowing me to keep Gigabolt for endgame content. But that still doesn't address the issue of the capstone powers being so weirdly out of place. They're fine as options, but having them be the ultimate powers of the AT feels very anti-climactic; it'd feel a lot more useful if they were options for other powers too, instead of having to pick one or the other.
The end of this new progression just feels... ill-considered. Like it was rushed to meet a deadline and not given enough time to test. It's like the new progression is trying to make Tempest into something it wasn't built to be. If you want to make an Electricity-themed crowd controller/support AT, then make a new AT. Hell, make a Hybrid role AT with choices between melee and crowd control powers in the Electricity powerset. I'd shell out $10 for that AT; beats having to spend $50 for a FF slot to re-create my old Tempest as the DPS monster I liked her being. That's not an expenditure I can really afford to make for a video game I've already sank a fair amount of money into over the years.
Well that is kind of the idea. If the player want to have actual choices, they would get a FF slot, although unless you're gold, the FF slot is its own slot. The AT alone should be fine for doing all the endgame content, but its doesn't have the lack of DR the last version did. He will feel weaker because of this.
All ATs get nerfed w/ the DR change, but I think most vets saw that one coming, as ironically certain 'DR-free' dps ATs were ravaging the scoreboards (kind of a bad look to ur f2p game for a free kit to beat the pants off of a paid for, optimized FF dps).
That said, an optimized Tempest will be able to keep up w/ most optimized Elec FFs as far as raw dps, since it has all the basic powers to do so. It just won't be as flexible in other areas (as you'd expect for an AT). But as you've seen from the parses here, Elec's 100ft dps, even w/ the dmg-DR in place, can still be very formidable.
I wouldn't be surprise if during the Anniversary month, they would add a few more electric theme AT down the line, like a Raver or something. They did this with the psi powerset.
Yeah I'm quite aware that one of the main objective to revamping the existing AT is to remove the DR. This was the plan from the start with the free ATs. And yeah, the AT is in line with other FF electric since the build is right there. They're more fortunate enough compare to say, the Soldier AT, with this range dpsing.
Having thought a bit about the ball lightning refresh bug... I doubt actual range is the problem, but more the travel time. But timing does not only depend on distance, it is also influenced by server lag, latency spikes in your connection, pet AI bugs, etc.
So I think the current implementation is a bit too fragile. It would probably be better to "rig" to initial refresh to work independently of the actual pet.
Electrocute and Blinding Flash aren't critical to the archetype, but offer some utility. Thunderstrike has an advantage that adds a 50% damage boost against held targets. Electrocute can apply the -res debuff via an advantage, creating a decent burst combination.
Electrocute has a significant boost on damage when fighting bosses or others with damage resistance. Spend the points on the advantage.
Do any of the AT powers offer a bit of self-healing through an advantage?
Thunderstrike was given a Restoration ADV, something which patchnotes DON'T mention
Which I dunno, I use the power for opening AoE damage in my elemental mage, sacrificing rank 3 and losing damage would bitter me
Will use it however in my Tempest AT
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Comments
LA + Ball Lightning (+ Chain Lightning)
TK Lance + TK Strike
So the "obliterating all other sets except PA" is worded a bit to strong. Lightning is a good set, and single target dps is on par with other strong sets, but claiming it's much stronger than any other set is just wrong. Also note that ruptures (except melee TK) are bugged in that they do not work with a DUC, so if that is ever fixed TK Ranged will catch up to that last 100 dps too.
It's also funny to see when TK was getting changes, no one was complaining about the dps. But now that it's lightning, suddenly it's a huge issue and people that have never bothered to post any parses in previous reviews feel the need to spend huge effort trying to proof how OP things are now.
edit: I guess its also worth noting that while Elec has been one of the best ranged sets for raw dmg, ranged TK was also quite strong there too historically. Most people just didn't play as or care about the latter as much (for w/e reason; I guess cause TK Blades takes some interest away).
Regardless, is Ball of Lit also not benefiting from DUC? Since its a sep entity I'm not sure that can be changed, though.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'd be a bit more interested in using Power Source and End stacking for things like FC or PA builds or whatever energy-hungry stuff one can cook up. Granted, one has to be fine w/ throwing in what's likely some Elec stuff in there, but its an interesting option.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Ball lightning doesn't work with a DUC, but Lance rupture is a much higher dps than BL, so it would improve dps much more if that bug ever gets fixed.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
> Like I said, you can always do less damage. The comparison I am making is how far a given set, rotation, etc....can be pushed.
It's actually isn't, that is only important if you want to show off. There is no difference when adding some more AOs and such to one set or the other. But if you want to discuss testing etiquette, just posting numbers is completely meaningless. What you want to know is how one set compares to others.
If there is some obvious set specific synergy, you want to add that of course, but the amount of additional buffs you use for your parse is not important at all as long as they are somewhat close to what player tend to use and you keep them similar when testing different things. And I am fairly sure my live build (that I have used for all parses in previous set reviews) is far closer to what people use when actually playing the game than your parse build.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I am saying however, that unlike LArc, other 100ft sets do not come close to 7k DPS. I am not interested in debating how relevant or irrelevant that is....that's up to the devs to decide.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Baseline setup: EGO/Dex/Rec_End (depending on the EU), w/ Guardicator-
Specializations
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)
Stating for 541 Ego, 90 Dex, and ~110 Rec_End. Gives about 12% Offense, 30% crit, and 125% severity. No DUC or devices used.
~Electricity~
- Powers- R3 LArc + R2/Tripl/SCharged Ball Lit + R2/SConductor Chain Lit + R3 Elec Form + Concentration + Ionic Reverb
- Rotation- 2x LArc channels -> Ball Lit, repeat. (opener: Ball Lit + charged Chain Lit w/ adv)
= 3907 dps, w/ stable energy
~Ranged TK~
- Powers- R2/Stress TK Strike + R3 TK Lance + R3 Ego Form + Concentration + TK Reverb
- Rotation- TK Strike combo -> charged TK Lance, repeat.
= 4061 dps, w/ excess energy
~AR Muni~
- Powers- R2/Uncomp Assault Rifle + R2/LtoReason Gatling Gun + R3 SMG Burst + R3 Composure + Concentration + KI
- Rotation- 2x AR channels -> tap Gatling, repeat. (opener: 50ft SMG till 3x Furious, Gatling till AP proc)
= 3172 dps, w/ excess energy
- With R3 AR instead of Uncompromising (still rolling 3x Furious):
= 2809 dps, w/ excess energy
- With R2/Uncomp AR + R3 Targeting Computer as the passive (instead of Composure):
= 3546 dps, w/ excess energy
~Sorcery~
- Powers- R3 Soul Beam + R3 Hex of Suffering + Chant/BlLight Eld Blast + R3 Enchanter + Concentration + Conjuring
- (EGO/Dex/Int setup, w/ ~110 Int)
- Rotation- 2x Soul Beam channels -> 1x charged Eld Blast, repeat. (opener: 50ft Hex + charged Eld Blast)
= 3346 dps, w/ stable energy
Note: I know that Spellcaster is more efficient since it counts as an Enchantment already, but that requires swapping to an Int focus- which I didn't want to do here. Also didn't want to go out-of-set on the attacks (ie. use Wisp). If Wisp's Hexed adv gets fixed and you swap to that, it would prob boost dps a bit over using the blast.
~Darkness~
- Powers- R3/Nycto Ebon Ruin + R2/PBreak Shadow Blast + R3 Shadow Form + Concentration + Spirit Reverb
-(EGO/Dex/Con setup, w/ ~110 Con)
- Rotation- 3x charged ERuin -> 1x charged SBlast, repeat. (opener: charged SBlast)
= 3325 dps, w/ excess energy
Note: R3 Summon Shadows and/or R3 SBlast could prob boost dps by a bit more than this.
~Infernal SN~
- Powers- R3 Defile + R2/GFire Wisp + R3 Pestilence + Concentration + Supernatural Power
- Rotation- tap-spam Defile. Refresh debuff w/ Wisp. (opener: Wisp)
= 3386 dps, w/ low but stable energy
- Powers- R3 Defile + R2/GFire Wisp + R3 Infernal Blast + R3 Pestilence + Concentration + Mephitic
- Rotation- 2x charged Defile -> 1x charged IBlast, repeat. Refresh debuff w/ Wisp. (opener: Wisp)
= 3565 dps, w/ stable energy
Note: I couldn't just charge-spam Defile w/o bottoming out on energy or greatly changing stats, so I threw some IBlasts in there to make energy stable.
Also, on that note..
BUG: Wisp's Cursed adv still doesn't refresh its own Hexed debuff if its already applied.
-
That's all for now. I think ranged TK w/ Lance may be a bit over-tuned overall, considering its dps, rel lower energy use, and mobility during TK Strike. AR maybe could be a bit better for its more convoluted (more RNG and 50ft) setup. Also keep in mind that Darkness and Infernal's parses are rel impacted by not having high uptime on Find the Mark vs. the rapid-hitting setups. Whether Elec is still over-tuned or not I guess depends on balancing parameters.. though LArc's higher energy use, self-root, and lack of universal buffs/debuffs (ex. Fear or Illumination) or CC when doing this setup should be considered, imo.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
_____________________________________________________________________________
Powers
Tempest
New power progression path:
- 1: Electric Bolt
- 1: Chain Lightning
- 6: Electrical Current
- 8: Electric Form
- 11: Thunderstrike OR Ball Lightning
- 14: Power Source
- 17: Lightning Arc
- 21: Electric Shield
- 25: Ionic Reverberation
- 30: Lightning Storm OR Giga Bolt
- 35: Electric Sheath
- 40: Electrocute OR Blinding Light
are we going to get a new AT? Those changes could really introduce an ELECTRIC TANK >Not calling the ADV UNLIMITED POWER!
3/10 ruined forever, litterly unplayable
That's awesome! Definatly a BUFF for the END spec
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
This is a bit curious. While it's certainly a cool advantage, it really just turns this power into an energy builder that does more damage. I can't really think of any reason why someone would take this advantage even at 2 points, except for maybe during the leveling process.
Am I missing something about why this advantage is worth 3 points?
I mean, this comes on the heels of Outburst being fixed/good now, so one could get more mileage out of something like it than before.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
"No no it's fine we'll base the tournament around boxing gloves even though we have all these machine guns laying around that anybody could pick up and use whenever they wish... no no, I'm sure the majority will continue to use boxing gloves because they're stylish!"
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Powers
- Changed the Outburst spec in Endurance to buff base damage.
Yayyyy!!! kaizerin and the Devs just moved up my list from amazing to ultra amazing!!! Thank you!!!
At that point things are just "base damage" x "total damage bonus multipliers". Comparing powers at that point should always end up with difference in dps at a similar percentage.
If dps buffs end up working better for 1 set at than for another, there is either some significant synergy (which we should be able to identify), a bug (which we should be able to identify), or a testing error.
-
And just to sate my curiosity, I parsed PA to see just where it would fall, using my testing set previously.
Whelp..
First, revisiting Elec real quick after the Ball Lit nerf:
= 3903 dps, w/ stable energy
..Not much diff. The slight change was prob lost in the rng factors at play here.
~Power Armor~
- Powers- R2+advs Minigun + R3 Dual Wrist Rockets + R2/AStrike Micro Muni + R3 Targeting Comp + Conc + OD + R3 CoAP
~2-slot PA~
- Rotation- turn on Minigun and Wrist Rockets, re-activate when toggles end.
= 3324 dps, w/ stable energy
So.. not much shy of the dps for various other 100ft sets I tested. Perhaps a bit behind, but not by much. Micro Muni w/ adv could maybe net a bit better instead of using the Hand slot, but its still impressive either way for just using 2 slots.
~3-slot PA~
-Rotation- turn on all 3 attack toggles, re-activate when they end. (opener: setup and stand in CoAP)
= 5018 dps, w/ stable energy
Sure, you pretty much need to outsource for extra energy but... wow. This is while ranged PA has no lockdown while dpsing, and Micro Muni and Minigun w/ adv will also AoE/Splash to any nearby targets. There's a skill cap and energy barrier for sure, but once ur over that then you are handsomely rewarded. This is ~25-30% more single-target dps than my Ranged TK or Elec parses.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Formerly @Seschat pre PWEmerger. @Seschat on the Titan boards.
Supporter of the Titan Project.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
If min/max'd builds were the standard, we wouldn't have endless b----ing with bad cosmic runs or people not having decent DPS for checks or bringing the "wrong" build.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Oh, right. Freeform min/maxers with OP builds need to be nerfed, so let's fiddle with an AT and completely ignore the inherent issues of freeforms always being able to make OP builds because of the very nature of freeform construction.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
And this time the changes hit me harder than usual, as my main toon is a Tempest at cap. Tempest is supposed to be a classic glass cannon: high DPS and low durability. You survive by killing all the things faster than they can kill you, and making me choose between the vital-for-groups Lightning Storm and the thematically-appropriate-and-potent-even-in-endgame alpha strike Gigabolt is just a huge bummer. Gigabolt was perfectly positioned before as the capstone power, and the replacements in the new progression are just bizarre choices that are wholly pointless.
A threat wipe for a DPS AT is fine, but as the capstone power? By that point, you should be killing everything quickly and efficiently before they can put you in danger; threat wipes are best at the early-to-middle of the progression, when you're still leveling and thus far squishier. And my other choice for capstone is now a mediocre-at-best AoE snare? Electrocute is already out of place in a DPS AT, but at least before it was at a point in the progression where it wasn't harmful. You just pick Ball Lightning and go about your day.
Maybe I'm missing something, and these power choices are actually brilliant. But as far as I can see, with Tempest locked in Ranged Damage role, all crowd control powers will be so weak as to be useless. Especially against any kind of endgame content, which is what a capstone power is supposed to help you with. Power Source and Electric Current are good additions to this AT; EC will help with leveling in particular, as will Chain Lightning. I always had trouble with groups of more than 2 enemies at once when leveling my Tempest until I got Lightning Storm, so EC should make that much smoother. And finally giving the Electricity powerset its own form in Power Source is great! Scaling it with END in particular should make for a nice boost to overall DPS, which is what Tempest is all about.
...and that just makes the capstone choices all the more baffling. At least make Gigabolt one of the capstone choices for those of us who want to make their Tempest the biggest glass cannon they can; don't force these useless, out of place powers on us.
The initial debuff refresh on ball lighting fails when you are at high range. At >60 or 70 feet the initial refresh does not work, but refresh on the last hit does work.
Looking at the proposed changes..
1: Electric Bolt
1: Chain Lightning
6: Electrical Current
8: Electric Form
11: Thunderstrike OR Ball Lightning
14: Power Source
17: Lightning Arc
21: Electric Shield
25: Ionic Reverberation
30: Lightning Storm OR Giga Bolt
35: Electric Sheath
40: Electrocute OR Blinding Light
I imagine Kaiz put both higher tier AoEs at the same level so you didn't potentially have to wait till lvl 40 to have a better AoE. So the capstone choice may seem like a bummer, but at the same time potentially waiting that long for Gigabolt or LStorm could be a bummer to some players. LStorm is good, but Elec Current is good as well (less dps, but can have more reach as a cone and has a stun adv and/or crazy energy-gaining adv, and allows movement while casting).
I guess they could swap the powers at lvl 30 and lvl 40, and maybe add a choice of Sparkstorm and/or Storm Summoner lvl 6, so you get the chance to have a threat wipe earlier, the final choice is a more 'powerful' AoE, and you still can pick from a diff AoE early on.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Speaking of survivability, I personally like having crowd control on my dps character since I like having a "get off me" button or some way to get a quick respite. Of course, that comes down to tastes and why it's disappointing that the AT progression was posted so late in the testing.
-Sterga
Making a snare and a threat wipe your capstone powers for an AT that's all about ranged DPS is just cruel.
Make it Ball Lightning or Blinding Light at lvl 11 and Gigabolt or Thunderstrike at 40. A threat wipe could actually be useful then, and you could retcon it once you hit cap for more DPS. Gigabolt's use as an AoE is pretty negligable, so it makes sense making it single-target like Lightning Arc; you've already got better AoEs in Electrical Current and Lightning Storm, and you don't really need a 3rd AoE on top of those unless you want to specialize in AoEs. Then the choice at cap is between a strong single-target alpha strike/tap-spam for endgame content, or another AoE, in case you REALLY want to be an AoE beast.
And really, that's what the power choices should be for Tempest: AoE vs single-target. That way you can pick an AoE that fits what you want if you wanna specialize in picking out one guy in the mob and ruining his day, or being THE DPS factory for boss fights. And if you wanna be the AoE monster, you could do that instead; then you're doing crowd control without actually doing crowd control, and thus not taking the -20% hit for being in Ranged Damage role. You'd even still have Lightning Arc for single-target purposes.
I understand that the level 40 power choices may not seem that 'grand', but allowing damage archetypes to access better area effect/single target moves earlier on makes the leveling experience much more smooth.
Electrocute and Blinding Flash aren't critical to the archetype, but offer some utility. Thunderstrike has an advantage that adds a 50% damage boost against held targets. Electrocute can apply the -res debuff via an advantage, creating a decent burst combination.
If that isn't appealing, a threat wipe is pretty handy in the late game when you're more likely to be teaming with people.
If you're trying to eliminate "bad" choices, this really isn't the way to go. It's forcing a VERY bad choice instead.
Oh and I would pick Gigabolt over Lightning Storm because you don't get rooted easily like Storm and it a VERY powerful burst, which is kind of important in places like a cosmic fight.
I guess its also because the revamped or new ATs want you to sample some of the new powers, instead of relying too much on what the old AT used. In this case, if Kaiz doesn't want you to have too much redundancy, then allowing a build that could saddle you with Current, LStorm, and Gigabolt (w/ Chain Lit's chaining) all at once is going pretty deep into the 'redundant' territory.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The end of this new progression just feels... ill-considered. Like it was rushed to meet a deadline and not given enough time to test. It's like the new progression is trying to make Tempest into something it wasn't built to be. If you want to make an Electricity-themed crowd controller/support AT, then make a new AT. Hell, make a Hybrid role AT with choices between melee and crowd control powers in the Electricity powerset. I'd shell out $10 for that AT; beats having to spend $50 for a FF slot to re-create my old Tempest as the DPS monster I liked her being. That's not an expenditure I can really afford to make for a video game I've already sank a fair amount of money into over the years.
That said, an optimized Tempest will be able to keep up w/ most optimized Elec FFs as far as raw dps, since it has all the basic powers to do so. It just won't be as flexible in other areas (as you'd expect for an AT). But as you've seen from the parses here, Elec's 100ft dps, even w/ the dmg-DR in place, can still be very formidable.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yeah I'm quite aware that one of the main objective to revamping the existing AT is to remove the DR. This was the plan from the start with the free ATs. And yeah, the AT is in line with other FF electric since the build is right there. They're more fortunate enough compare to say, the Soldier AT, with this range dpsing.
So I think the current implementation is a bit too fragile. It would probably be better to "rig" to initial refresh to work independently of the actual pet.
Do any of the AT powers offer a bit of self-healing through an advantage?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Which I dunno, I use the power for opening AoE damage in my elemental mage, sacrificing rank 3 and losing damage would bitter me
Will use it however in my Tempest AT