if you want to have a fairer experience in PvE as well as PvP, it is important to look at this.
No, it isn't. What "fairer" PvE? "Fair" isn't even a concept in PvE.
The only reason to care about this is PvP and frankly, most people in this game couldn't give two shits about PvP.
Well, yes there is a need. No one wants to feel useless on a PVE team while one person runs through and deals with everything. To say their is no need for balance in PVE is just silly. Think it through a little more before you post; i've already covered most of these points..
How about instead you read what I wrote, instead of going off about things I didn't say.
The quote is in the comment i made, i did read it, and i did respond to it.. You said "there is no need to measure builds in PvE" i then told you why they do need to be measured in PvE. You said "fair wasn't a concept" in PvE, i said it is a concept because it would be unfair if one person can do everything, and another is just completely useless, and deadweight to the team. It isn't fun being dead weight on a team, people like to feel like they're involved, otherwise they might as well be watching someone play champions online instead of playing it themselves.
I referred exactly to what you said, so i have no idea what you're talking about with this comment.
i said it is a concept because it would be unfair if one person can do everything, and another is just completely useless, and deadweight to the team. It isn't fun being dead weight on a team, people like to feel like they're involved, otherwise they might as well be watching someone play champions online instead of playing it themselves.
I'm afraid I don't really understand this. In PvE, a tank is the only type of person who really would want to take more than one AD to rotate around. Are you trying to compete with a tank using your own tank in an alert? Who really cares about that? Otherwise, if you're a DPS, just be glad you have a tank so that you don't have to deal with getting squashed and instead can focus on dishing out damage.
You'll need to explain this a bit more clearly. How does supposedly not having multiple AOs/ADs make someone "dead weight?" If you're dealing damage or healing people, you're not dead weight.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
i said it is a concept because it would be unfair if one person can do everything, and another is just completely useless, and deadweight to the team. It isn't fun being dead weight on a team, people like to feel like they're involved, otherwise they might as well be watching someone play champions online instead of playing it themselves.
"I'm afraid I don't really understand this. In PvE, a tank is the only type of person who really would want to take more than one AD to rotate around. Are you trying to compete with a tank using your own tank in an alert? Who really cares about that? Otherwise, if you're a DPS, just be glad you have a tank so that you don't have to deal with getting squashed and instead can focus on dishing out damage.
You'll need to explain this a bit more clearly. How does supposedly not having multiple AOs/ADs make someone "dead weight?" If you're dealing damage or healing people, you're not dead weight."
What i'm basically saying is you're not an essential component of the team, yes you make it slightly easier to get to the end if you're healing or dealing damage, but you are not a necessity to the team succeeding if there is someone on the team who can do everything.
What i'm basically saying is you're not an essential component of the team, yes you make it slightly easier to get to the end if you're healing or dealing damage, but you are not a necessity to the team succeeding if there is someone on the team who can do everything.
This is going to happen to you sometimes in this game because some content funnels people of varying levels of character development together. The solution is not to nerf players because you would have to nerf them down to the lowest possible power level involved, which would be a lvl 10 player. It's simply a fact that in this type of content you are going to end up sometimes feeling like the Robin to someone's Batman. Not because someone shows up with two ADs, but because their character is higher level, geared better, built sicker than yours, and/or they're better at the game than you are.
Aside from level gating this content to prevent people of disparate power levels from running it together, there is no solution that solves the problem you're feeling. Just sit back, enjoy the ride, and think of me assassinating everything when you end up in a Grab alert where you and everyone else is level 10.
Now, in content where having two ADs would actually matter, i.e. endgame content, you will always feel like you are contributing ( if you actually are ) because that content actually requires all involved to contribute. You'll be glad that someone in a key role has two ADs and knows when to use them. You won't have much interest in nerfing your fellow man when you're going up against Eidelon or Dino together.
What i'm basically saying is you're not an essential component of the team, yes you make it slightly easier to get to the end if you're healing or dealing damage, but you are not a necessity to the team succeeding if there is someone on the team who can do everything.
The time it takes to complete something in PvE factors into my "necessity". A group of tanks might be guaranteed to succeed, given a long, long time, but I might not be in for such a long haul. I've seen this in Cybermind alerts. A team with a variety, including squishies that heal and deal DPS, is one I would rather be a part of. Such a team finishes faster and gives me more engaging play.
As for Cosmics you can't win with all tanks, even DPS-tanks cycling ADs. You just can't. Even in Teleios Ascendant, such a group might succeed, though the final stage, with the genetic ball of doom, is very tough without a healer.
It's not broken. Sorry for your unfortunate pvp experiences, but it sounds like you want to change the game so you'll be better at pvp instead of adapting to what is.
I don't support a "one AD only" change and I fail to see how this would make the game better for a majority of players. Or attract new players.
Respectfully, these are the primary considerations that should drive Cryptic's prioritization decisions. Not the grumblings of a disgruntled pvp'er.
It's not broken. Sorry for your unfortunate pvp experiences, but it sounds like you want to change the game so you'll be better at pvp instead of adapting to what is.
I don't support a "one AD only" change and I fail to see how this would make the game better for a majority of players. Or attract new players.
Respectfully, these are the primary considerations that should drive Cryptic's prioritization decisions. Not the grumblings of a disgruntled pvp'er.
I have to agree with this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with MD that requires a nerf to it (it might even need a slight bump, as ranking it is not at all worth the points that could go elsewhere). I concur the other ADs should be raised up to be more reliable and adding more ADs for variety is good for the overall game.
Moreover, limiting ADs to only one is hardly a priority and not at all gamebreaking, especially at the endgame content. Besides, doing that is one slot that could go to something more useful, depending on your build (I don't really see DPS bothering with 2 ADs, while Support and Tanks might for extra survivability).
I can think of only one time I had 2 ADs, and I changed it later on, so personal experience is it's not as rewarding doing so. And I've never been bothered that some choose to do so. Unless it's monumentally broken, I can't see what the fuss is about.
Can a build really maintain ADs continuously anymore? There was a time when that was possible, but now, I think there is some downtime, even with Int-primary builds.
Can a build really maintain ADs continuously anymore?
It's theoretically possible with Revitalize builds (in 13s you can get 2 Revitalize tics; if you also have a base cd of 60s for a shared cd of 20s, each Revitalize tic subtracts 3.6s, so after 13s the power is off cd). May also be possible with Arcane Clarity builds. Both builds are fairly crippled in other ways, though.
Can a build really maintain ADs continuously anymore? There was a time when that was possible, but now, I think there is some downtime, even with Int-primary builds.
It is. As soon as the cooldown reduction changes hit live somebody made a build that can cycle ADs. After that nobody ever used that build again.
Can a build really maintain ADs continuously anymore? There was a time when that was possible, but now, I think there is some downtime, even with Int-primary builds.
It is entirely possible... however dropping all the way to 0 second downtime is impractical... it can however be dropped to a 3 sec downtime, an 18sec shared CD, without a major sacrifice in performance either... also Rec primary is best for cooldown reduction.
It's not broken. Sorry for your unfortunate pvp experiences, but it sounds like you want to change the game so you'll be better at pvp instead of adapting to what is.
I don't support a "one AD only" change and I fail to see how this would make the game better for a majority of players. Or attract new players.
Respectfully, these are the primary considerations that should drive Cryptic's prioritization decisions. Not the grumblings of a disgruntled pvp'er.
I've explained several times why it would make the game better, you need only read. If you fail to see i think you should try opening your eyes. You're just most likely another AD rotator who wants the game to be completely effortless. You don't care about the experience of the game for other people who do not have the option to rotate ADs; you don't care if they're bascially entirely shut off from a part of the game they may otherwise like to participate in with some chance of succeeding (i'm referring to pvp here); i suggest you put yourself in someone else's shoes.
Also, i'm freeform; the option to use two ADs is completely open to me, i just don't because it just ruins the game when everyone is near unkillable/unkillable; NOT because i can't "adapt", more that i refuse to use such cheap means that may awell be cheating within the rules... There are people who used to play pvp on this game who thought using glitches was fairplay because it was "in the game", just because it is in the game doesn't mean it is above scrutiny; it might be "fair" from the angle that it is in the game, but when measured against other powers AD rotation is very far from fair, and over-performs greatly for pvp purposes and pve.
Your argument is "you have no argument because i say so"; and i'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Not only that, the criticisms you're making of me lie entirely in the realms of assumption, and shouldn't even be taken into consideration. Post something more productive next time please. Less feelings, more facts. You're just trying to avoid the argument and go straight to discrediting me because you don't have an argument.
The quote is in the comment i made, i did read it, and i did respond to it.. You said "there is no need to measure builds in PvE" i then told you why they do need to be measured in PvE.
No, you didn't. You told me why there should be balance. That's not about "measuring builds" but overall power performances. "Measuring builds" is just stupid epeen.
You said "fair wasn't a concept" in PvE, i said it is a concept because it would be unfair if one person can do everything, and another is just completely useless, and deadweight to the team. It isn't fun being dead weight on a team, people like to feel like they're involved, otherwise they might as well be watching someone play champions online instead of playing it themselves.
Fair isn't a concept. The game doesn't give a crap about your feelings. "Balance" isn't about fair, it's about overall performance in a cooperative game. It's not about "this person is better". You keep making it all about the individual when it has little to do with them.
What i'm basically saying is you're not an essential component of the team, yes you make it slightly easier to get to the end if you're healing or dealing damage, but you are not a necessity to the team succeeding if there is someone on the team who can do everything.
"This is going to happen to you sometimes in this game because some content funnels people of varying levels of character development together. The solution is not to nerf players because you would have to nerf them down to the lowest possible power level involved, which would be a lvl 10 player. It's simply a fact that in this type of content you are going to end up sometimes feeling like the Robin to someone's Batman. Not because someone shows up with two ADs, but because their character is higher level, geared better, built sicker than yours, and/or they're better at the game than you are.
Aside from level gating this content to prevent people of disparate power levels from running it together, there is no solution that solves the problem you're feeling. Just sit back, enjoy the ride, and think of me assassinating everything when you end up in a Grab alert where you and everyone else is level 10.
Now, in content where having two ADs would actually matter, i.e. endgame content, you will always feel like you are contributing ( if you actually are ) because that content actually requires all involved to contribute. You'll be glad that someone in a key role has two ADs and knows when to use them. You won't have much interest in nerfing your fellow man when you're going up against Eidelon or Dino together."
So what you're saying is, someone will always be overperforming whether they're using two ADs or not due to level differences/other power choices. True, but not to the same degree, which is the point i'm making. Just like how removing AD rotation would only impact the difficulty of the cosmic to a degree; it most certainly wouldn't make it impossible as they've been tanked by ATs. The degree to which someone overperforms impacts the degree to how useful you'll feel to the rest of the team; if someone is running through one-shotting everything and taking no damage, that is different from someone who takes no damage but cannot one-shot everything.
It's not broken. Sorry for your unfortunate pvp experiences, but it sounds like you want to change the game so you'll be better at pvp instead of adapting to what is.
I don't support a "one AD only" change and I fail to see how this would make the game better for a majority of players. Or attract new players.
Respectfully, these are the primary considerations that should drive Cryptic's prioritization decisions. Not the grumblings of a disgruntled pvp'er.
I have to agree with this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with MD that requires a nerf to it (it might even need a slight bump, as ranking it is not at all worth the points that could go elsewhere). I concur the other ADs should be raised up to be more reliable and adding more ADs for variety is good for the overall game.
Moreover, limiting ADs to only one is hardly a priority and not at all gamebreaking, especially at the endgame content. Besides, doing that is one slot that could go to something more useful, depending on your build (I don't really see DPS bothering with 2 ADs, while Support and Tanks might for extra survivability).
I can think of only one time I had 2 ADs, and I changed it later on, so personal experience is it's not as rewarding doing so. And I've never been bothered that some choose to do so. Unless it's monumentally broken, I can't see what the fuss is about.
It isn't JUST having two ADs, it is being able to rotate them with a minimal gap between. If people could have 2 ADs, and only activate one every minute and twenty seconds (roughly given that i'm not taking CD reduction into consideration), then i'm fine with that; it is being able to have them up near constantly where the problem arises. i suspect the build you made wasn't designed like that, if it had been you'd have probably realized how "gamebreaking" it is...
If all ADs get raised to the level of MD, then i'd like to see the same treatment for AOs...I'm fine with it staying as it is as long as it is balanced with it'd offensive equivalent.
OP have you ever tried to participate in Cosmic runs or better yet tried to tank one?
Of course. Have you? I'll admit i'm not particularly experienced at tanking cosmics, but i've most certainly done it before.. More importantly, those more experienced in tanking cosmics have already backed me up anyway; but i notice you're not questioning them?
It isn't JUST having two ADs, it is being able to rotate them with a minimal gap between. If people could have 2 ADs, and only activate one every minute and twenty seconds (roughly given that i'm not taking CD reduction into consideration), then i'm fine with that; it is being able to have them up near constantly where the problem arises. i suspect the build you made wasn't designed like that, if it had been you'd have probably realized how "gamebreaking" it is...
If all ADs get raised to the level of MD, then i'd like to see the same treatment for AOs...I'm fine with it staying as it is as long as it is balanced with it'd offensive equivalent.
I'm still not seeing why this is a huge problem. If it were gamebreaking, everybody would be doing it. That certainly isn't the case. If it was so abusable, people would be doing it left and right. Like I pointed out, it's not as rewarding as it's being touted to be.
I have no problem with AOs getting beefed up. Most really need it. The only AO that doesn't need any upgrade (maybe even a slight nerf) is the always present Ego Surge+Nimble Mind (which is certainly more prevalent than having 2 ADs with short gaps).
It isn't JUST having two ADs, it is being able to rotate them with a minimal gap between. If people could have 2 ADs, and only activate one every minute and twenty seconds (roughly given that i'm not taking CD reduction into consideration), then i'm fine with that; it is being able to have them up near constantly where the problem arises. i suspect the build you made wasn't designed like that, if it had been you'd have probably realized how "gamebreaking" it is...
If all ADs get raised to the level of MD, then i'd like to see the same treatment for AOs...I'm fine with it staying as it is as long as it is balanced with it'd offensive equivalent.
I'm still not seeing why this is a huge problem. If it were gamebreaking, everybody would be doing it. That certainly isn't the case. If it was so abusable, people would be doing it left and right. Like I pointed out, it's not as rewarding as it's being touted to be.
I have no problem with AOs getting beefed up. Most really need it. The only AO that doesn't need any upgrade (maybe even a slight nerf) is the always present Ego Surge+Nimble Mind (which is certainly more prevalent than having 2 ADs with short gaps).
AD were meant to be short intervals of a huge boost to your defense, if you can't see how having a huge boost to your defense nearly all the time isn't advantageous, then how am i going to convince you? You've already made up your mind.
You're also playing down the number of people who're using AD rotation; almost everyone i see is using it unless they're an AT. But that is just your word against mine; undoubtedly those who wish to preserve AD rotation, aka the majority, because the majority are using it, will likely side with you over me.
OP have you ever tried to participate in Cosmic runs or better yet tried to tank one?
Of course. Have you? I'll admit i'm not particularly experienced at tanking cosmics, but i've most certainly done it before.. More importantly, those more experienced in tanking cosmics have already backed me up anyway; but i notice you're not questioning them?
Not questioning them because I see them regularly there. You I barely have seen there.
As to your suggestion I don't see the point of it.
I would say get more experience in actual cosmic content because some of your comments show how lacking in knowledge you have about the experience.
You tell me I'm making assumptions about you then proceed to accuse me repeatedly of "not caring." You tell me to "open my eyes." You're very dismissive of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, aren't you? To the point of condescension.
My eyes are wide open, thank you. You're a freeform player who made a conscious decision to limit yourself. Now you've arbitrarily decided that imposing this limitation on everyone will be good for the game. Despite the fact that you seem unhappy with your choice!
I don't need facts and figures to determine what makes the game fun. Limiting builds to placate one grumbling pvp'er will not make the game more fun for the majority of our little population. New content will. I'd prefer to see the devs focus their efforts on making the majority of their player base happy.
And this problem was solved with the CDR nerf some time ago.
OP have you ever tried to participate in Cosmic runs or better yet tried to tank one?
Of course. Have you? I'll admit i'm not particularly experienced at tanking cosmics, but i've most certainly done it before.. More importantly, those more experienced in tanking cosmics have already backed me up anyway; but i notice you're not questioning them?
Not questioning them because I see them regularly there. You I barely have seen there.
As to your suggestion I don't see the point of it.
I would say get more experience in actual cosmic content because some of your comments show how lacking in knowledge you have about the experience.
If you think i am lacking, try one of the others who support what i'm saying. If it can be done with one active defense, rotation isn't necessary; these are the facts, i'm suggesting the change because it makes pvp too difficult for those who don't have access to AD rotation, and it makes pve too easy for those using it.
You're just most likely another AD rotator who wants the game to be completely effortless.
This line of thinking is why your arguments continue to fail. If you think this about me, for example, then you're as far off the mark as you could possibly be with a player in this game.
The degree to which someone overperforms impacts the degree to how useful you'll feel to the rest of the team; if someone is running through one-shotting everything and taking no damage, that is different from someone who takes no damage but cannot one-shot everything.
Your message is becoming a bit unclear now. So would you rather have the person who is unkillable in your party, or the person who destroys everything before you can even lock on to it? Since your complaint is about AD rotation then I would imagine you'd rather the destroyer in your party... but as far as I can tell they would make you feel even more useless than the other guy.
You tell me I'm making assumptions about you then proceed to accuse me repeatedly of "not caring." You tell me to "open my eyes." You're very dismissive of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, aren't you? To the point of condescension.
My eyes are wide open, thank you. You're a freeform player who made a conscious decision to limit yourself. Now you've arbitrarily decided that imposing this limitation on everyone will be good for the game. Despite the fact that you seem unhappy with your choice!
I don't need facts and figures to determine what makes the game fun. Limiting builds to placate one grumbling pvp'er will not make the game more fun for the majority of our little population. New content will. I'd prefer to see the devs focus their efforts on making the majority of their player base happy.
And this problem was solved with the CDR nerf some time ago.
Right, and what of those who don't have the choice, and are limited by AT? Who cares about them right? I chose not to use AD rotation, ATs don't have that choice, they just have to accept they're always going to be stomped on by someone cheating within the rules with AD rotation.
If you think dueling someone who is unkillable while also being unkillable is fun, then you're entitled to that view, as am i entitled to think it is very much not fun; but you don't strike me as someone who pvps at all, so what would you know about it anyway?
Imagine a game where no one can lose because everyone is unkillable; that is what herogames basically became before they near died off entirely (I wonder why..). You think it is okay for everyone to be basically unkillable? The one way anyone would ever die was if everyone else in bash ganged up on one person, or they just teamed up on the ATs/squishy because it was a pointless effort for them to attack anyone else...Yes, basically having complete invulnerability most of the time in pvp is fun, and obviously fair...Do you even read what you're typing? You actually think people being near unkillable to very few builds/completely unkillable to most builds is good for the game? It is like having an invincibility cheat in pvp, and pve; and you actually want it to remain.
Oh, and i might be a "pvper" but i also play pve content in the game (how else would i get the gear?).. I guess that gives me a broader perspective than just being a pver. Would you like to know why it is a "little population"?, because of the developers listening to people like you who would rather sink the entire game than have their over-performing builds be scaled down to a reasonable degree.
Yes, i made assumptions about you, i was giving you a taste of your own medicine. Oh, and i see you're still making them about me, wonderful..
You can't fix everything by constantly buffing everything; the more you buff the more challenge-less the game becomes; it is much smarter to reduce abilities that overperform, lest you change the entire game just to be on par with one ability. Ask yourself, which is more work to achieve the same result? The answer is obvious.
"this problem was solved with the CDR nerf some time ago" Hah! GOOD ONE. Who do you think you're fooling? Either you haven't figured out yet that it is still possible to rotate them with only a few seconds between, or you're actively lying.
Atleast you actually had some semblance of argument this time, but once again it seems like another poor attempt at discrediting me.
Right, and what of those who don't have the choice, and are limited by AT? Who cares about them right? I chose not to use AD rotation, ATs don't have that choice, they just have to accept they're always going to be stomped on by someone cheating within the rules with AD rotation.
So wait, is this about pvp again? Or are you claiming that another player beating NPCs is "stomping on" you?
PS - FFs and ATs have separate ques for hero games, and an AT is free to decline a duel from a FF without penalty. FF vs AT isn't really a concern.
You're just most likely another AD rotator who wants the game to be completely effortless.
This line of thinking is why your arguments continue to fail. If you think this about me, for example, then you're as far off the mark as you could possibly be with a player in this game.
The degree to which someone overperforms impacts the degree to how useful you'll feel to the rest of the team; if someone is running through one-shotting everything and taking no damage, that is different from someone who takes no damage but cannot one-shot everything.
Your message is becoming a bit unclear now. So would you rather have the person who is unkillable in your party, or the person who destroys everything before you can even lock on to it? Since your complaint is about AD rotation then I would imagine you'd rather the destroyer in your party... but as far as I can tell they would make you feel even more useless than the other guy.
Did i direct that at you?.. I recall you using AD rotation unless i'm mistaken, although maybe you've changed your ways since i last saw you. You can say my argument has failed all you want, but unless you come up with something to prove it, it is just hot air.
The point i was making is simple, if someone you're teamed with can kill everything in one shot, and they are unkillable themselves, that means the person who cannot do those things will now feel less useful to the team. If you have someone who is ONLY unkillable, but could not one shot everything, that would make the person on the team feel LESS useless, because the degree to which the useful player is useful is to a lesser extent. The point being that how useless someone feels on a team is based on how much more useful another person is on the team, and that by removing AD rotation the person who is more useful is not so much MORE useful than the person who is "useless".
Did i direct that at you?.. I recall you using AD rotation unless i'm mistaken, although maybe you've changed your ways since i last saw you. You can say my argument has failed all you want, but unless you come up with something to prove it, it is just hot air.
Wait... are you operating on the state of the game from over two years ago? Because if you're talking about me rotating ADs, then you're talking about when I used to pvp on Kagami and that was at least two years ago before the CDR nerf hit. If that's your frame of reference then you are way out of date for the realities of how this game works now.
The point being that how useless someone feels on a team is based on how much more useful another person is on the team, and that by removing AD rotation the person who is more useful is not so much MORE useful than the person who is "useless".
And the point I'm making is that you are way too obsessed with "AD rotation" because restricting players to one AD wouldn't even solve the stated problem, not by a long shot - players are currently steamrolling ahead of you in content with only one AD, or no ADs. In order to ensure that you are never afflicted with "Robin Syndrome" in content where players of disparate power levels are funneled together you would have to nerf max level players, and every decent power in the game, down so hard that they wouldn't be able to do any end game content and would likely struggle to complete even regular high level content. You would also have to figure out how to do this without inadvertantly nerfing the less powerful toons as well.
The only "real" solution to this issue is to make it so that the content that funnels people of various development levels together no longer does so, but in doing so you would have to have so many factors of segmentation ( level, build, skill ) that you would end up not even being able to get that content to start.
The only real solution, without quotation marks, is to just sit back, enjoy the ride, and wait for the devs to continue to balance up the game in more reasonable and conservative ways than what you're suggesting. The gap is closing, but they're not being crazy about it. Hell I can already see huge improvements with this issue in the last two years - there was a point where I felt there was no point in me bringing a character that was specialized for single target damage into alerts, but nowadays I find it pretty satisfying to do so.
AD were meant to be short intervals of a huge boost to your defense, if you can't see how having a huge boost to your defense nearly all the time isn't advantageous, then how am i going to convince you? You've already made up your mind.
You're also playing down the number of people who're using AD rotation; almost everyone i see is using it unless they're an AT. But that is just your word against mine; undoubtedly those who wish to preserve AD rotation, aka the majority, because the majority are using it, will likely side with you over me.
I've made up my mind based on my personal observation and experience, as likely you have yours. However, I still do not see any gamebreaking argument with having 2 ADs available (short cooldown or not) in this game as of this point in time.
I have never seen anyone "unkillable" using that method of survivability. Even the toughest tank during a cosmic goes down from time to time, despite this plus all the support available. (Heck, I've main tanked and Off tanked all of them, and I still see tanks tougher than me eat floor). Teleios Ascendant is still balls hard and tanks still go down. So where is the evidence that this option is so advantageous it needs to be nerfed again (which, as pointed out, was already done by adding an additional shared CD rather than zero CD)?
As far as ATs, well some ATs don't even have a single AD at all, so using them as a point of reference is not effective. ATs have their strengths and weaknesses by design after all.
For freeforms, well if this is advantageous as you say and every Freeform has access or can build for it, then it isn't really gamebreaking at all. Again, I have not observed for it to be the case, but if everyone can pretty much do it, the matter is trivial.
I'm all for nerfing anything too powerful that it is easily abused, or at least balancing it with other options (that's why I agree the other ADs and AOs should be raised to Masterful Dodge's reliability and Ego Surge's power). But it has to be justified in reference to the game as a whole, not just one aspect of it so everyone benefits. God knows there have already been other bum nerfs CO did before that shouldn't have been.
Right, and what of those who don't have the choice, and are limited by AT? Who cares about them right? I chose not to use AD rotation, ATs don't have that choice, they just have to accept they're always going to be stomped on by someone cheating within the rules with AD rotation.
So wait, is this about pvp again? Or are you claiming that another player beating NPCs is "stomping on" you?
PS - FFs and ATs have separate ques for hero games, and an AT is free to decline a duel from a FF without penalty. FF vs AT isn't really a concern.
Right, i'm pretty sure i've stated that it is about both PVP and PVE; so what is your point? Are you trying to imply i'm only talking about PVP? Well i've made arguements for both, so i'd appreciate it is people would acknowledge that.
Oh, and there might be separate herogame queues, but there isn't separate dueling; which is the only type of pvp going on now anyway. Also, ATs aren't balanced with eachother which resulted in a few types of AT dominating everyone else, so there is imbalance between ATs also, which was briefly mentions; and i suspect that comes down to those ATs who do have an AD, and those who do not.
Did i direct that at you?.. I recall you using AD rotation unless i'm mistaken, although maybe you've changed your ways since i last saw you. You can say my argument has failed all you want, but unless you come up with something to prove it, it is just hot air.
Wait... are you operating on the state of the game from over two years ago? Because if you're talking about me rotating ADs, then you're talking about when I used to pvp on Kagami and that was at least two years ago before the CDR nerf hit. If that's your frame of reference then you are way out of date for the realities of how this game works now.
The point being that how useless someone feels on a team is based on how much more useful another person is on the team, and that by removing AD rotation the person who is more useful is not so much MORE useful than the person who is "useless".
And the point I'm making is that you are way too obsessed with "AD rotation" because restricting players to one AD wouldn't even solve the stated problem, not by a long shot - players are currently steamrolling ahead of you in content with only one AD, or no ADs. In order to ensure that you are never afflicted with "Robin Syndrome" in content where players of disparate power levels are funneled together you would have to nerf max level players, and every decent power in the game, down so hard that they wouldn't be able to do any end game content and would likely struggle to complete even regular high level content. You would also have to figure out how to do this without inadvertantly nerfing the less powerful toons as well.
The only "real" solution to this issue is to make it so that the content that funnels people of various development levels together no longer does so, but in doing so you would have to have so many factors of segmentation ( level, build, skill ) that you would end up not even being able to get that content to start.
The only real solution, without quotation marks, is to just sit back, enjoy the ride, and wait for the devs to continue to balance up the game in more reasonable and conservative ways than what you're suggesting. The gap is closing, but they're not being crazy about it. Hell I can already see huge improvements with this issue in the last two years - there was a point where I felt there was no point in me bringing a character that was specialized for single target damage into alerts, but nowadays I find it pretty satisfying to do so.
Then i'm not entirely mistaken am I? You have used rotating ADs, to say they're unfair now would mean saying they were unfair back when you used them. Also, the fact that you use no AD basically proves that the game can be done without ADs, so only helps the PVE side of the argument; and from what i can gather you don't seem to pvp with those builds (if you did you'd have likely run into me). So the everything is only to the favor of what i've been saying.
The gap might be closing, but it isn't closed enough in the area of ADs, they attempted to fix AD rotation, and they've failed to do so, so unless they plan on fixing that, it is important to bring it to their attention; otherwise they'll think they've fixed the problem when they have done far from that. They need to take a second look at AD rotation, because it is still out of hand, that is the point of this thread.
In my experience AD rotation is the defining factor that makes some builds stand way way above other builds that don't use it. It is a HUGE part, and you're trying to play it down for some reason; i'm aware it isn't the only issue, i've already said that, but it is a massive part of it.
AD were meant to be short intervals of a huge boost to your defense, if you can't see how having a huge boost to your defense nearly all the time isn't advantageous, then how am i going to convince you? You've already made up your mind.
You're also playing down the number of people who're using AD rotation; almost everyone i see is using it unless they're an AT. But that is just your word against mine; undoubtedly those who wish to preserve AD rotation, aka the majority, because the majority are using it, will likely side with you over me.
I've made up my mind based on my personal observation and experience, as likely you have yours. However, I still do not see any gamebreaking argument with having 2 ADs available (short cooldown or not) in this game as of this point in time.
I have never seen anyone "unkillable" using that method of survivability. Even the toughest tank during a cosmic goes down from time to time, despite this plus all the support available. (Heck, I've main tanked and Off tanked all of them, and I still see tanks tougher than me eat floor). Teleios Ascendant is still balls hard and tanks still go down. So where is the evidence that this option is so advantageous it needs to be nerfed again (which, as pointed out, was already done by adding an additional shared CD rather than zero CD)?
As far as ATs, well some ATs don't even have a single AD at all, so using them as a point of reference is not effective. ATs have their strengths and weaknesses by design after all.
For freeforms, well if this is advantageous as you say and every Freeform has access or can build for it, then it isn't really gamebreaking at all. Again, I have not observed for it to be the case, but if everyone can pretty much do it, the matter is trivial.
I'm all for nerfing anything too powerful that it is easily abused, or at least balancing it with other options (that's why I agree the other ADs and AOs should be raised to Masterful Dodge's reliability and Ego Surge's power). But it has to be justified in reference to the game as a whole, not just one aspect of it so everyone benefits. God knows there have already been other bum nerfs CO did before that shouldn't have been.
Right, the point is, if this content is doable without AD rotation, then you don't need it to do the content. Not only that, cosmics aside, all pve content is trivial with AD rotation. Yes you still see people die with AD rotation against cosmics if for some reason the healer dies, or any other reason; the point is it makes everything else in the game effortless, and outright ruins pvp.
You haven't observed everyone using it because you're arguing on the side of it, honestly, this is just a case of confirmation bias. Unless they're not max level yet, an AT, or they're new; most people i run into are rotating ADs.. How often do you duel people? How would you know what people are using otherwise? I duel all of the time, and i see AD rotation more than 80% of the duels i participate it; it is rife, you just have no way of seeing it.
It has been justified; if cosmics can be done without AD rotation, with an AT, what sense is there in ruining the rest of the game by leaving it in? They're clearly not meant to be active all of the time, they tried to fix it so they were no, and it is still possible. The fact that they actually tried to fix it proves that it is clearly not intended to be used that way; and like i said, this thread is just to point out that they haven't fixed it yet.
The fact that they actually tried to fix it proves that it is clearly not intended to be used that way; and like i said, this thread is just to point out that they haven't fixed it yet.
Actually the fact that the devs outright stated when the CDR nerf was going into place that AD rotation was never an intended function of the game was proof that it was not intended... there is no extrapolation of that fact needed... we were all directly TOLD that it was unintended... The sad thing is that despite the CDR nerf failing to actually fix the issue, Cryptic has yet to implement the one fix that was suggested hundreds of times that would actually fix the problem... Simply make the shared CD static... CDR should have never affected that in the first place. The Defensive Expertise spec could be made an exception as the only form of CDR to affect it, but it'd be an unnecessary exception.
It has been justified; if cosmics can be done without AD rotation, with an AT, what sense is there in ruining the rest of the game by leaving it in?
You've yet to show it's ruining anything, just that you've gotten your butt beat in PvP and you "feel bad" if you're not as powerful as others. That's your problem, learn to deal with it. And don't go on about what you think is "needed". If this game was limited to just what was "needed" it would be one boring, sorry-**** game.
It has been justified; if cosmics can be done without AD rotation, with an AT, what sense is there in ruining the rest of the game by leaving it in?
You've yet to show it's ruining anything, just that you've gotten your butt beat in PvP and you "feel bad" if you're not as powerful as others. That's your problem, learn to deal with it. And don't go on about what you think is "needed". If this game was limited to just what was "needed" it would be one boring, sorry-**** game.
The proof is that the pvp community is pretty much dead on the game. The proof is that even cryptic acknowledge it is broken, and unintended.
Imagine you have to bring a knife to a gun fight, some might find that fun; but most do not, which is why most don't participate in pvp anymore.
For PvE it simply acts as a way to cheat basically the entire game without any risk. If you like cheating on games, you probably like AD rotation.
Also you're just making assumptions about why i'm doing this (like many foolishly did before you) which you have no evidence of. I've told why i made the post, because it spoils the game in PvP by making it too hard for those who don't AD cycle, and in PvE where is makes everything effortless.
"You've yet to prove it is ruining anything" Except me, and everyone else who has posted why it is ruining the game, and has ruined the game already to some extent.. I feel like you people are just trying to get me to repeat myself over and over, because your own bias won't allow you to see how broken it actually is. Read what i've already said, the answer is there; i shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over because of your own incompetence.
"If this game was limited to just what was "needed" it would be one boring, sorry-**** game."
A boring game is what happens when everyone takes the best performing powers, because to compete with others most feel they need to have the same broken powers as others. Herogames were a great example of that, where everyone just ended up using slightly altered variations of the same build. That last assertion you made was probably the most poorly thought out thing in the entire paragraph; you want something that isn't boring? You need variety, you want variety? you need balance. AD rotation is not balanced. Therefore fixing AD rotation will bring the game closer to balance, and in doing so allow more variety, and in doing that make the game less boring.
Oh, and before you say "It isn't bringing variety, it is limiting the game" let me explain why this notion is completely false. It is limiting when only a certain very specific build type can hurt people who AD rotate; this locks out most frameworks from being able to hurt people with AD rotation. So what happens is, as i mentioned above, a bunch of people taking the only powers that have some chance of breaking through AD rotation, and taking AD rotation as their own defense. Removing AD rotation will hugely broaden the amount of viable builds in PvP, and hopefully will breathe some life back into it. PvE it doesn't impact as much other than making you feel less useless on a team, and making the game SLIGHTLY more challenging (and i mean very very slightly), which is so desperately needs.
Also you're just making assumptions about why i'm doing this (like many foolishly did before you) which you have no evidence of. I've told why i made the post, because it spoils the game in PvP by making it too hard for those who don't AD cycle
And no one cares. You want to keep up with the PvPers, do so, don't demand that the game be changed.
Also "You've yet to prove it is ruining anything" Except me, and everyone else who has posted why it is ruining the game, and has ruined the game already to some extent.. I feel like you people are just trying to get me to repeat myself over and over, because your own bias won't allow you to see how broken it actually is. Read what i've already said, the answer is there; i shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over because of your own incompetence.
No one wants you to repeat yourself, because what you're repeating is a load of cow pies.
Also you're just making assumptions about why i'm doing this (like many foolishly did before you) which you have no evidence of. I've told why i made the post, because it spoils the game in PvP by making it too hard for those who don't AD cycle
And no one cares. You want to keep up with the PvPers, do so, don't demand that the game be changed.
Also "You've yet to prove it is ruining anything" Except me, and everyone else who has posted why it is ruining the game, and has ruined the game already to some extent.. I feel like you people are just trying to get me to repeat myself over and over, because your own bias won't allow you to see how broken it actually is. Read what i've already said, the answer is there; i shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over because of your own incompetence.
No one wants you to repeat yourself, because what you're repeating is a load of cow pies.
It does make things effortless in PvE and people do care. This is exactly why there was such a large push for the CDR nerf in the first place, and exactly why people were so pissed about how it was implemented. The CDR nerf hit everything hard, but the one thing that it was meant to break was the one thing that it had the smallest impact on. Pre-nerf it was possible to bring the shared CD to under 15 seconds, infact it wasnt uncommon to see it under 10 seconds. Post-nerf those same builds that had it under 10 seconds were sitting at 18seconds. The people who abused AD rotation freaked out and made a huge deal about a 3 second gap claiming that the rotation was broken. Waiting a measly 3 seconds to activate your second AD is not a breaking the rotation, and there are numerous players who realized this rationally and kept using the rotation quietly to avoid getting it nerfed again. Now that the CDR nerf is so far behind us people are more bold about using it, but still prefer to keep it quiet to preserve their favorite abusive rotation. In any other game, there would be a wave of bans accompanying yet another nerf to fix this. Feel lucky this isnt any other game. And yes it does still need to be nerfed again, and properly this time.
i usually use a support in cosmic runs with resurgence, bionic sheilding, 2 heal items in the device tray plus my actual heal powers
so OP because you are losing in PvP, I'm only allowed to have 1 active defence.
Also you're just making assumptions about why i'm doing this (like many foolishly did before you) which you have no evidence of. I've told why i made the post, because it spoils the game in PvP by making it too hard for those who don't AD cycle
And no one cares. You want to keep up with the PvPers, do so, don't demand that the game be changed.
Also "You've yet to prove it is ruining anything" Except me, and everyone else who has posted why it is ruining the game, and has ruined the game already to some extent.. I feel like you people are just trying to get me to repeat myself over and over, because your own bias won't allow you to see how broken it actually is. Read what i've already said, the answer is there; i shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over because of your own incompetence.
No one wants you to repeat yourself, because what you're repeating is a load of cow pies.
No argument to be found, well no argument that hasn't been covered extensively already. Moving on.
i usually use a support in cosmic runs with resurgence, bionic sheilding, 2 heal items in the device tray plus my actual heal powers
so OP because you are losing in PvP, I'm only allowed to have 1 active defence.
This isn't just to do with PVP, stop making unfounded assumptions and either grow a brain, or learn to read..You're basically just telling lies about me because you're afraid of losing AD rotation.
Oh, and you haven't got any facts to back yourself up, you're just stating your opinion as if it is fact. So once again, another pointless post that is just another attempt to discredit me on an unfounded assumption.
This isn't just to do with PVP, stop making unfounded assumptions and either grow a brain, or learn to read..You're basically just telling lies about me because you're afraid of losing AD rotation.
Oh, and you haven't got any facts to back yourself up, you're just stating your opinion as if it is fact. So once again, another pointless post that is just another attempt to discredit me on an unfounded assumption.
Unfortunately for those following the list of responses, you have continually implied and in some instances supported (by not denying) that this directly comes from a place of PvP.
PvP, unfortunately has had in various instances, a negative impact on powers that exist in game instead of addressing the PvP system and perhaps tweaking that instead.
Don't forget, your opinion is also a fact here, which is why you are making a suggestion. Cryptic have already lessened the problem with AD rotation, it would seem that you still see it as a problem because you engage in PvP and see players who you are on the cusp of killing pop Resurgence and render all your hard hitting useless/putting you back to square one.
I would actually like to see you survive direct cosmic assault like you claimed earlier with your 5k HP character. I assume as a PvPer you have recorded your game play in the past?
As far as PvE is concerned...the endgame content is FAR from trivialized by builds having two or more Active Defensive powers.
I would suggest re-evaluating why you really want this change to happen, as it seems to come from a very poorly constructed view of the game that PvP can give (especially with how free builds can be in CO).
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@raighn , I don't think people are up in arms about other players having more than one active defensive. The Freeform system does allow for incredible variation...when you reduce that because of PvP and loose claims that this will lead to "PvE improvements" or whatever the rationale is here for such a nerf, you actually end up in a very bad place.
From where I am sitting, the more defensive measures that the tank who is tanking has, the better it is as they stay alive longer and can do their job to generate threat longer without me having to pump oodles of healing into them constantly just to keep them decent.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why the endgame bosses tend to do so much damage is because it is assumed that tanks will be running around with two active defensive powers.
@raighn , I don't think people are up in arms about other players having more than one active defensive. The Freeform system does allow for incredible variation...when you reduce that because of PvP and loose claims that this will lead to "PvE improvements" or whatever the rationale is here for such a nerf, you actually end up in a very bad place.
From where I am sitting, the more defensive measures that the tank who is tanking has, the better it is as they stay alive longer and can do their job to generate threat longer without me having to pump oodles of healing into them constantly just to keep them decent.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why the endgame bosses tend to do so much damage is because it is assumed that tanks will be running around with two active defensive powers.
Just a clarification... I am against hard limiting ADs to 1... I am however of the strong belief that ADs need to have static shared CDs to completely prevent AD rotation... there is zero reason to use a second AD within 15 seconds of the first expiring...
Just a clarification... I am against hard limiting ADs to 1... I am however of the strong belief that ADs need to have static shared CDs to completely prevent AD rotation... there is zero reason to use a second AD within 15 seconds of the first expiring...
Just a clarification... I am against hard limiting ADs to 1... I am however of the strong belief that ADs need to have static shared CDs to completely prevent AD rotation... there is zero reason to use a second AD within 15 seconds of the first expiring...
I'm glad you made that clear.
The main reason I'm against the hard limit is because I run a few PFF tanks and to me Field Surge is not optional when using PFF, nor does it fill the role of an AD... and yet taking it with a hard limit would prevent me from taking a real AD to support them when my PFF is holding, or the rare occation when PFF fail while FS is on CD.
That and the few other times I run with 2 ADs it's always Resurgeance + another AD... and like FS I don't really see Resurgeance as a real AD... it's little more than an emergency self heal for me...
Resurgence should not count as an AD, using it should definitely not trigger the shared cooldown. resurgence is an "Active Heal"
Field Surge too... it provides far too little benefit to be considered an AD... especially since it's entirely possible to get Protection Field to provide a shield that is just barely smaller than the shield from Field Surge...
Heck, the advantage on Bionic Shielding shouldn't even be considered an AD...
This isn't just to do with PVP, stop making unfounded assumptions and either grow a brain, or learn to read..You're basically just telling lies about me because you're afraid of losing AD rotation.
Oh, and you haven't got any facts to back yourself up, you're just stating your opinion as if it is fact. So once again, another pointless post that is just another attempt to discredit me on an unfounded assumption.
Unfortunately for those following the list of responses, you have continually implied and in some instances supported (by not denying) that this directly comes from a place of PvP.
PvP, unfortunately has had in various instances, a negative impact on powers that exist in game instead of addressing the PvP system and perhaps tweaking that instead.
Don't forget, your opinion is also a fact here, which is why you are making a suggestion. Cryptic have already lessened the problem with AD rotation, it would seem that you still see it as a problem because you engage in PvP and see players who you are on the cusp of killing pop Resurgence and render all your hard hitting useless/putting you back to square one.
I would actually like to see you survive direct cosmic assault like you claimed earlier with your 5k HP character. I assume as a PvPer you have recorded your game play in the past?
As far as PvE is concerned...the endgame content is FAR from trivialized by builds having two or more Active Defensive powers.
I would suggest re-evaluating why you really want this change to happen, as it seems to come from a very poorly constructed view of the game that PvP can give (especially with how free builds can be in CO).
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@raighn , I don't think people are up in arms about other players having more than one active defensive. The Freeform system does allow for incredible variation...when you reduce that because of PvP and loose claims that this will lead to "PvE improvements" or whatever the rationale is here for such a nerf, you actually end up in a very bad place.
From where I am sitting, the more defensive measures that the tank who is tanking has, the better it is as they stay alive longer and can do their job to generate threat longer without me having to pump oodles of healing into them constantly just to keep them decent.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why the endgame bosses tend to do so much damage is because it is assumed that tanks will be running around with two active defensive powers.
First of all, i said i "exaggerated" when i said all attacks can be survived as a squishy with block and one active defense, what i should have said is "most". I then changed it in a later post to "a tank can most certainly survive all cosmic attacks with one AD and block". But this is to no surprise, because low hp characters aren't supposed to tank.
"PvP has had a negative impact on powers" No it hasn't, it has prevented them from being way too strong when compared to other powers in the rest of the game. It is stupid to think that balance can only be done in an upward fashion; they don't have time to raise all the powers up to the few over performing powers; not only that they'd have to make the game more difficult to compensate for the constantly rising power of the frameworks. The simple fact is, you people don't like your powers being made worse when they over perform, it all comes down to that.
The entire game is still doable without AD rotation, so why do you feel it is a necessity? A necessity that makes the PVE experience way, way too easy, and breaks PVP; a necessity that even cryptic think is broken.. You're biased because you like being able to cheat past everything, that is the only way to look at it; what other reason do you have for clinging on to it other than "i like being broken"? Perhaps you should take a look at why you're trying to preserve AD rotation, you might actually realize that it isn't coming from a place of what is best for the game, but of self preservation.
You can't say i'm doing this for the sake of self preservation for the simple fact that i also have access to AD rotation, and merely choose not to use it. I just want the game to be better in PVE, which at the moment is too boring, and in PVP , which is completely broken; AD rotation will be a big change towards making PVE more fun, and PVP less broken.
Oh and to all those people saying "Oh OP lost a duel so they must be doing it because they're bad".. If i was so upset about losing duels, wouldn't i just take AD rotation like everyone else? Surely it would make more sense than trying to get the developers to change the game, right? Well that is because of the simple fact that it does not come from a place of "losing duels" but a place of the game being utterly broken, and no one playing a part of the game i quite enjoy because of it; that, and PVE is just boring and no challenge .
It isn't just defense that plays a part in cosmic success, damage plays a part, and healing. Whether you win of lose against a cosmic is obviously not going to be impacted by just AD rotation; because that would be neglecting all the other factors. It makes tanking much much easier, that is undeniable, and has been confirmed by many here already; but it is also shown that it can be done without AD rotation, so the point you're arguing on cosmics seems to be lacking key pieces of information that you've left out to make it seem like AD rotation isn't as over performing as it is.
I suggest you reevaluate why you're arguing for AD rotation, because you've much more reason than I to be biased.
Then i'm not entirely mistaken am I? You have used rotating ADs, to say they're unfair now would mean saying they were unfair back when you used them.
Except that, as I stated, when I used them it was before the CDR nerf. If you're going to ignore critical and clearly stated information like that then you're not going to convince anyone.
In my experience AD rotation is the defining factor that makes some builds stand way way above other builds that don't use it.
I find your experience to be lacking and your message to be confused. You acknowledge that content can be dominated without any ADs, and yet you then put forth ADs as the defining factor in which builds dominate and which ones do not. My experience has shown that ADs are only one of many ways that a build can dominate lesser content. Fact is we now have endgame content that demands performance, so if you want to feel important for the performance of your build then that's where you go for that. Anything before that content is casual content where everyone gets funneled together and sometimes you're the Robin to someone's Superman.
If you can't handle losing duels then stop accepting them. For every "I can't possibly win against this" there's a pvper who has beaten "this". Pvp in this game is a game of counters - accept the meta or step away from it.
Then i'm not entirely mistaken am I? You have used rotating ADs, to say they're unfair now would mean saying they were unfair back when you used them.
Except that, as I stated, when I used them it was before the CDR nerf. If you're going to ignore critical and clearly stated information like that then you're not going to convince anyone.
In my experience AD rotation is the defining factor that makes some builds stand way way above other builds that don't use it.
I find your experience to be lacking and your message to be confused. You acknowledge that content can be dominated without any ADs, and yet you then put forth ADs as the defining factor in which builds dominate and which ones do not. My experience has shown that ADs are only one of many ways that a build can dominate lesser content. Fact is we now have endgame content that demands performance, so if you want to feel important for the performance of your build then that's where you go for that. Anything before that content is casual content where everyone gets funneled together and sometimes you're the Robin to someone's Superman.
If you can't handle losing duels then stop accepting them. For every "I can't possibly win against this" there's a pvper who has beaten "this". Pvp in this game is a game of counters - accept the meta or step away from it.
Let me simplify the message for you.
It makes PVE too easy (it is already easy enough, but AD rotation makes it laughable), and it breaks PVP .
That is the message i've been putting forward in almost every post. I said the content is easy anyway; but with AD rotation it is beyond easy, it is basically cheating. Not sure how that is confusing, but whatever..
"ADs are one of many ways that a build can dominate lesser content" Yes, but i never denied that, but that is a separate issue; the topic on ADs is just one big part of the problem. Atleast you're acknowledging that it does trivialize the game.
"Endgame demands performance" Yes, it does, but it doesn't require 2 ADs in rotation, which has been confirmed many times; so the point you're making is invalid.
You're trying to defend it by saying "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it"; measure it in usefulness of other powers, and your argument falls to pieces. You're arguing for less balance basically; you're telling people to accept that there is no balance. I'm not asking for "perfect" balance, i'm asking for something that doesn't tip the scales, it breaks the scales. It is so bad that people don't even pvp anymore. If AD rotation was so fair, why does no one PVP? AD rotation is undeniably a HUGE part of it.
Your point on duels is based on assumption again; it is on the basis that I, or other people can't handle losing duels, but it is more that they see it as unfair, or a pointless effort. Once again i use the example of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Funnily enough, it seems most people take your advice and don't participate in duels, and now we have more or less no PVP. What a great idea..
Oh, and "there's a pvper who has beaten "this""; yes, ofcourse there is, but take the skill level of the player into consideration; if both people have a good knowledge of the game, the person with rotating ADs is going to have a massive advantage. It isn't about "oh, someone has beaten it before", because there are factors there that aren't being measured; player skill, other powers, gear, stats. Take the power combinations as they are and measure them against builds that do not use them, and you'll see a clear difference. This isn't a problem of skill, it is a problem of power combinations being significantly stronger than other power combinations to the degree that it more or less breaks the game; it is about attaining a somewhat reasonable balance, instead of a completely ludicrous one.
Comments
I referred exactly to what you said, so i have no idea what you're talking about with this comment.
You'll need to explain this a bit more clearly. How does supposedly not having multiple AOs/ADs make someone "dead weight?" If you're dealing damage or healing people, you're not dead weight.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You'll need to explain this a bit more clearly. How does supposedly not having multiple AOs/ADs make someone "dead weight?" If you're dealing damage or healing people, you're not dead weight."
What i'm basically saying is you're not an essential component of the team, yes you make it slightly easier to get to the end if you're healing or dealing damage, but you are not a necessity to the team succeeding if there is someone on the team who can do everything.
This is going to happen to you sometimes in this game because some content funnels people of varying levels of character development together. The solution is not to nerf players because you would have to nerf them down to the lowest possible power level involved, which would be a lvl 10 player. It's simply a fact that in this type of content you are going to end up sometimes feeling like the Robin to someone's Batman. Not because someone shows up with two ADs, but because their character is higher level, geared better, built sicker than yours, and/or they're better at the game than you are.
Aside from level gating this content to prevent people of disparate power levels from running it together, there is no solution that solves the problem you're feeling. Just sit back, enjoy the ride, and think of me assassinating everything when you end up in a Grab alert where you and everyone else is level 10.
Now, in content where having two ADs would actually matter, i.e. endgame content, you will always feel like you are contributing ( if you actually are ) because that content actually requires all involved to contribute. You'll be glad that someone in a key role has two ADs and knows when to use them. You won't have much interest in nerfing your fellow man when you're going up against Eidelon or Dino together.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
As for Cosmics you can't win with all tanks, even DPS-tanks cycling ADs. You just can't.
Even in Teleios Ascendant, such a group might succeed, though the final stage, with the genetic ball of doom, is very tough without a healer.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I don't support a "one AD only" change and I fail to see how this would make the game better for a majority of players. Or attract new players.
Respectfully, these are the primary considerations that should drive Cryptic's prioritization decisions. Not the grumblings of a disgruntled pvp'er.
Moreover, limiting ADs to only one is hardly a priority and not at all gamebreaking, especially at the endgame content. Besides, doing that is one slot that could go to something more useful, depending on your build (I don't really see DPS bothering with 2 ADs, while Support and Tanks might for extra survivability).
I can think of only one time I had 2 ADs, and I changed it later on, so personal experience is it's not as rewarding doing so. And I've never been bothered that some choose to do so. Unless it's monumentally broken, I can't see what the fuss is about.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
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Also, i'm freeform; the option to use two ADs is completely open to me, i just don't because it just ruins the game when everyone is near unkillable/unkillable; NOT because i can't "adapt", more that i refuse to use such cheap means that may awell be cheating within the rules... There are people who used to play pvp on this game who thought using glitches was fairplay because it was "in the game", just because it is in the game doesn't mean it is above scrutiny; it might be "fair" from the angle that it is in the game, but when measured against other powers AD rotation is very far from fair, and over-performs greatly for pvp purposes and pve.
Your argument is "you have no argument because i say so"; and i'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Not only that, the criticisms you're making of me lie entirely in the realms of assumption, and shouldn't even be taken into consideration. Post something more productive next time please. Less feelings, more facts. You're just trying to avoid the argument and go straight to discrediting me because you don't have an argument.
"This is going to happen to you sometimes in this game because some content funnels people of varying levels of character development together. The solution is not to nerf players because you would have to nerf them down to the lowest possible power level involved, which would be a lvl 10 player. It's simply a fact that in this type of content you are going to end up sometimes feeling like the Robin to someone's Batman. Not because someone shows up with two ADs, but because their character is higher level, geared better, built sicker than yours, and/or they're better at the game than you are.
Aside from level gating this content to prevent people of disparate power levels from running it together, there is no solution that solves the problem you're feeling. Just sit back, enjoy the ride, and think of me assassinating everything when you end up in a Grab alert where you and everyone else is level 10.
Now, in content where having two ADs would actually matter, i.e. endgame content, you will always feel like you are contributing ( if you actually are ) because that content actually requires all involved to contribute. You'll be glad that someone in a key role has two ADs and knows when to use them. You won't have much interest in nerfing your fellow man when you're going up against Eidelon or Dino together."
So what you're saying is, someone will always be overperforming whether they're using two ADs or not due to level differences/other power choices. True, but not to the same degree, which is the point i'm making. Just like how removing AD rotation would only impact the difficulty of the cosmic to a degree; it most certainly wouldn't make it impossible as they've been tanked by ATs. The degree to which someone overperforms impacts the degree to how useful you'll feel to the rest of the team; if someone is running through one-shotting everything and taking no damage, that is different from someone who takes no damage but cannot one-shot everything.
If all ADs get raised to the level of MD, then i'd like to see the same treatment for AOs...I'm fine with it staying as it is as long as it is balanced with it'd offensive equivalent.
If it was so abusable, people would be doing it left and right. Like I pointed out, it's not as rewarding as it's being touted to be.
I have no problem with AOs getting beefed up. Most really need it. The only AO that doesn't need any upgrade (maybe even a slight nerf) is the always present Ego Surge+Nimble Mind (which is certainly more prevalent than having 2 ADs with short gaps).
You're also playing down the number of people who're using AD rotation; almost everyone i see is using it unless they're an AT. But that is just your word against mine; undoubtedly those who wish to preserve AD rotation, aka the majority, because the majority are using it, will likely side with you over me.
As to your suggestion I don't see the point of it.
I would say get more experience in actual cosmic content because some of your comments show how lacking in knowledge you have about the experience.
My eyes are wide open, thank you. You're a freeform player who made a conscious decision to limit yourself. Now you've arbitrarily decided that imposing this limitation on everyone will be good for the game. Despite the fact that you seem unhappy with your choice!
I don't need facts and figures to determine what makes the game fun. Limiting builds to placate one grumbling pvp'er will not make the game more fun for the majority of our little population. New content will. I'd prefer to see the devs focus their efforts on making the majority of their player base happy.
And this problem was solved with the CDR nerf some time ago.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If you think dueling someone who is unkillable while also being unkillable is fun, then you're entitled to that view, as am i entitled to think it is very much not fun; but you don't strike me as someone who pvps at all, so what would you know about it anyway?
Imagine a game where no one can lose because everyone is unkillable; that is what herogames basically became before they near died off entirely (I wonder why..). You think it is okay for everyone to be basically unkillable? The one way anyone would ever die was if everyone else in bash ganged up on one person, or they just teamed up on the ATs/squishy because it was a pointless effort for them to attack anyone else...Yes, basically having complete invulnerability most of the time in pvp is fun, and obviously fair...Do you even read what you're typing? You actually think people being near unkillable to very few builds/completely unkillable to most builds is good for the game? It is like having an invincibility cheat in pvp, and pve; and you actually want it to remain.
Oh, and i might be a "pvper" but i also play pve content in the game (how else would i get the gear?).. I guess that gives me a broader perspective than just being a pver. Would you like to know why it is a "little population"?, because of the developers listening to people like you who would rather sink the entire game than have their over-performing builds be scaled down to a reasonable degree.
Yes, i made assumptions about you, i was giving you a taste of your own medicine. Oh, and i see you're still making them about me, wonderful..
You can't fix everything by constantly buffing everything; the more you buff the more challenge-less the game becomes; it is much smarter to reduce abilities that overperform, lest you change the entire game just to be on par with one ability. Ask yourself, which is more work to achieve the same result? The answer is obvious.
"this problem was solved with the CDR nerf some time ago" Hah! GOOD ONE. Who do you think you're fooling? Either you haven't figured out yet that it is still possible to rotate them with only a few seconds between, or you're actively lying.
Atleast you actually had some semblance of argument this time, but once again it seems like another poor attempt at discrediting me.
PS - FFs and ATs have separate ques for hero games, and an AT is free to decline a duel from a FF without penalty. FF vs AT isn't really a concern.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The point i was making is simple, if someone you're teamed with can kill everything in one shot, and they are unkillable themselves, that means the person who cannot do those things will now feel less useful to the team. If you have someone who is ONLY unkillable, but could not one shot everything, that would make the person on the team feel LESS useless, because the degree to which the useful player is useful is to a lesser extent. The point being that how useless someone feels on a team is based on how much more useful another person is on the team, and that by removing AD rotation the person who is more useful is not so much MORE useful than the person who is "useless".
Since then I've fallen in love with making glass cannons who rely on things like movement and crowd control effects to tear through stuff. If you'd like some proof of that here you go :'3
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1207307/videos-of-various-characters-soloing-the-q-zone/p1
Not a single AD in the bunch ~.^ I am about to upload a video of my tank/dps hybrid toon, but she only has your standard MD and Resurgence, so no rotating happening there.
And the point I'm making is that you are way too obsessed with "AD rotation" because restricting players to one AD wouldn't even solve the stated problem, not by a long shot - players are currently steamrolling ahead of you in content with only one AD, or no ADs. In order to ensure that you are never afflicted with "Robin Syndrome" in content where players of disparate power levels are funneled together you would have to nerf max level players, and every decent power in the game, down so hard that they wouldn't be able to do any end game content and would likely struggle to complete even regular high level content. You would also have to figure out how to do this without inadvertantly nerfing the less powerful toons as well.
The only "real" solution to this issue is to make it so that the content that funnels people of various development levels together no longer does so, but in doing so you would have to have so many factors of segmentation ( level, build, skill ) that you would end up not even being able to get that content to start.
The only real solution, without quotation marks, is to just sit back, enjoy the ride, and wait for the devs to continue to balance up the game in more reasonable and conservative ways than what you're suggesting. The gap is closing, but they're not being crazy about it. Hell I can already see huge improvements with this issue in the last two years - there was a point where I felt there was no point in me bringing a character that was specialized for single target damage into alerts, but nowadays I find it pretty satisfying to do so.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I have never seen anyone "unkillable" using that method of survivability. Even the toughest tank during a cosmic goes down from time to time, despite this plus all the support available. (Heck, I've main tanked and Off tanked all of them, and I still see tanks tougher than me eat floor). Teleios Ascendant is still balls hard and tanks still go down. So where is the evidence that this option is so advantageous it needs to be nerfed again (which, as pointed out, was already done by adding an additional shared CD rather than zero CD)?
As far as ATs, well some ATs don't even have a single AD at all, so using them as a point of reference is not effective. ATs have their strengths and weaknesses by design after all.
For freeforms, well if this is advantageous as you say and every Freeform has access or can build for it, then it isn't really gamebreaking at all. Again, I have not observed for it to be the case, but if everyone can pretty much do it, the matter is trivial.
I'm all for nerfing anything too powerful that it is easily abused, or at least balancing it with other options (that's why I agree the other ADs and AOs should be raised to Masterful Dodge's reliability and Ego Surge's power). But it has to be justified in reference to the game as a whole, not just one aspect of it so everyone benefits. God knows there have already been other bum nerfs CO did before that shouldn't have been.
Oh, and there might be separate herogame queues, but there isn't separate dueling; which is the only type of pvp going on now anyway. Also, ATs aren't balanced with eachother which resulted in a few types of AT dominating everyone else, so there is imbalance between ATs also, which was briefly mentions; and i suspect that comes down to those ATs who do have an AD, and those who do not.
The gap might be closing, but it isn't closed enough in the area of ADs, they attempted to fix AD rotation, and they've failed to do so, so unless they plan on fixing that, it is important to bring it to their attention; otherwise they'll think they've fixed the problem when they have done far from that. They need to take a second look at AD rotation, because it is still out of hand, that is the point of this thread.
In my experience AD rotation is the defining factor that makes some builds stand way way above other builds that don't use it. It is a HUGE part, and you're trying to play it down for some reason; i'm aware it isn't the only issue, i've already said that, but it is a massive part of it.
You haven't observed everyone using it because you're arguing on the side of it, honestly, this is just a case of confirmation bias. Unless they're not max level yet, an AT, or they're new; most people i run into are rotating ADs.. How often do you duel people? How would you know what people are using otherwise? I duel all of the time, and i see AD rotation more than 80% of the duels i participate it; it is rife, you just have no way of seeing it.
It has been justified; if cosmics can be done without AD rotation, with an AT, what sense is there in ruining the rest of the game by leaving it in? They're clearly not meant to be active all of the time, they tried to fix it so they were no, and it is still possible. The fact that they actually tried to fix it proves that it is clearly not intended to be used that way; and like i said, this thread is just to point out that they haven't fixed it yet.
Imagine you have to bring a knife to a gun fight, some might find that fun; but most do not, which is why most don't participate in pvp anymore.
For PvE it simply acts as a way to cheat basically the entire game without any risk. If you like cheating on games, you probably like AD rotation.
Also you're just making assumptions about why i'm doing this (like many foolishly did before you) which you have no evidence of. I've told why i made the post, because it spoils the game in PvP by making it too hard for those who don't AD cycle, and in PvE where is makes everything effortless.
"You've yet to prove it is ruining anything" Except me, and everyone else who has posted why it is ruining the game, and has ruined the game already to some extent.. I feel like you people are just trying to get me to repeat myself over and over, because your own bias won't allow you to see how broken it actually is. Read what i've already said, the answer is there; i shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over because of your own incompetence.
"If this game was limited to just what was "needed" it would be one boring, sorry-**** game."
A boring game is what happens when everyone takes the best performing powers, because to compete with others most feel they need to have the same broken powers as others. Herogames were a great example of that, where everyone just ended up using slightly altered variations of the same build. That last assertion you made was probably the most poorly thought out thing in the entire paragraph; you want something that isn't boring? You need variety, you want variety? you need balance. AD rotation is not balanced. Therefore fixing AD rotation will bring the game closer to balance, and in doing so allow more variety, and in doing that make the game less boring.
Oh, and before you say "It isn't bringing variety, it is limiting the game" let me explain why this notion is completely false. It is limiting when only a certain very specific build type can hurt people who AD rotate; this locks out most frameworks from being able to hurt people with AD rotation. So what happens is, as i mentioned above, a bunch of people taking the only powers that have some chance of breaking through AD rotation, and taking AD rotation as their own defense. Removing AD rotation will hugely broaden the amount of viable builds in PvP, and hopefully will breathe some life back into it. PvE it doesn't impact as much other than making you feel less useless on a team, and making the game SLIGHTLY more challenging (and i mean very very slightly), which is so desperately needs.
so OP because you are losing in PvP, I'm only allowed to have 1 active defence.
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Oh, and you haven't got any facts to back yourself up, you're just stating your opinion as if it is fact. So once again, another pointless post that is just another attempt to discredit me on an unfounded assumption.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
PvP, unfortunately has had in various instances, a negative impact on powers that exist in game instead of addressing the PvP system and perhaps tweaking that instead.
Don't forget, your opinion is also a fact here, which is why you are making a suggestion. Cryptic have already lessened the problem with AD rotation, it would seem that you still see it as a problem because you engage in PvP and see players who you are on the cusp of killing pop Resurgence and render all your hard hitting useless/putting you back to square one.
I would actually like to see you survive direct cosmic assault like you claimed earlier with your 5k HP character. I assume as a PvPer you have recorded your game play in the past?
As far as PvE is concerned...the endgame content is FAR from trivialized by builds having two or more Active Defensive powers.
I would suggest re-evaluating why you really want this change to happen, as it seems to come from a very poorly constructed view of the game that PvP can give (especially with how free builds can be in CO).
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@raighn , I don't think people are up in arms about other players having more than one active defensive. The Freeform system does allow for incredible variation...when you reduce that because of PvP and loose claims that this will lead to "PvE improvements" or whatever the rationale is here for such a nerf, you actually end up in a very bad place.
From where I am sitting, the more defensive measures that the tank who is tanking has, the better it is as they stay alive longer and can do their job to generate threat longer without me having to pump oodles of healing into them constantly just to keep them decent.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why the endgame bosses tend to do so much damage is because it is assumed that tanks will be running around with two active defensive powers.
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That and the few other times I run with 2 ADs it's always Resurgeance + another AD... and like FS I don't really see Resurgeance as a real AD... it's little more than an emergency self heal for me...
Field Surge too... it provides far too little benefit to be considered an AD... especially since it's entirely possible to get Protection Field to provide a shield that is just barely smaller than the shield from Field Surge...
Heck, the advantage on Bionic Shielding shouldn't even be considered an AD...
"PvP has had a negative impact on powers" No it hasn't, it has prevented them from being way too strong when compared to other powers in the rest of the game. It is stupid to think that balance can only be done in an upward fashion; they don't have time to raise all the powers up to the few over performing powers; not only that they'd have to make the game more difficult to compensate for the constantly rising power of the frameworks. The simple fact is, you people don't like your powers being made worse when they over perform, it all comes down to that.
The entire game is still doable without AD rotation, so why do you feel it is a necessity? A necessity that makes the PVE experience way, way too easy, and breaks PVP; a necessity that even cryptic think is broken.. You're biased because you like being able to cheat past everything, that is the only way to look at it; what other reason do you have for clinging on to it other than "i like being broken"? Perhaps you should take a look at why you're trying to preserve AD rotation, you might actually realize that it isn't coming from a place of what is best for the game, but of self preservation.
You can't say i'm doing this for the sake of self preservation for the simple fact that i also have access to AD rotation, and merely choose not to use it. I just want the game to be better in PVE, which at the moment is too boring, and in PVP , which is completely broken; AD rotation will be a big change towards making PVE more fun, and PVP less broken.
Oh and to all those people saying "Oh OP lost a duel so they must be doing it because they're bad".. If i was so upset about losing duels, wouldn't i just take AD rotation like everyone else? Surely it would make more sense than trying to get the developers to change the game, right? Well that is because of the simple fact that it does not come from a place of "losing duels" but a place of the game being utterly broken, and no one playing a part of the game i quite enjoy because of it; that, and PVE is just boring and no challenge .
It isn't just defense that plays a part in cosmic success, damage plays a part, and healing. Whether you win of lose against a cosmic is obviously not going to be impacted by just AD rotation; because that would be neglecting all the other factors. It makes tanking much much easier, that is undeniable, and has been confirmed by many here already; but it is also shown that it can be done without AD rotation, so the point you're arguing on cosmics seems to be lacking key pieces of information that you've left out to make it seem like AD rotation isn't as over performing as it is.
I suggest you reevaluate why you're arguing for AD rotation, because you've much more reason than I to be biased.
If you can't handle losing duels then stop accepting them. For every "I can't possibly win against this" there's a pvper who has beaten "this". Pvp in this game is a game of counters - accept the meta or step away from it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It makes PVE too easy (it is already easy enough, but AD rotation makes it laughable), and it breaks PVP .
That is the message i've been putting forward in almost every post. I said the content is easy anyway; but with AD rotation it is beyond easy, it is basically cheating. Not sure how that is confusing, but whatever..
"ADs are one of many ways that a build can dominate lesser content" Yes, but i never denied that, but that is a separate issue; the topic on ADs is just one big part of the problem. Atleast you're acknowledging that it does trivialize the game.
"Endgame demands performance" Yes, it does, but it doesn't require 2 ADs in rotation, which has been confirmed many times; so the point you're making is invalid.
You're trying to defend it by saying "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it"; measure it in usefulness of other powers, and your argument falls to pieces. You're arguing for less balance basically; you're telling people to accept that there is no balance. I'm not asking for "perfect" balance, i'm asking for something that doesn't tip the scales, it breaks the scales. It is so bad that people don't even pvp anymore. If AD rotation was so fair, why does no one PVP? AD rotation is undeniably a HUGE part of it.
Your point on duels is based on assumption again; it is on the basis that I, or other people can't handle losing duels, but it is more that they see it as unfair, or a pointless effort. Once again i use the example of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Funnily enough, it seems most people take your advice and don't participate in duels, and now we have more or less no PVP. What a great idea..
Oh, and "there's a pvper who has beaten "this""; yes, ofcourse there is, but take the skill level of the player into consideration; if both people have a good knowledge of the game, the person with rotating ADs is going to have a massive advantage. It isn't about "oh, someone has beaten it before", because there are factors there that aren't being measured; player skill, other powers, gear, stats. Take the power combinations as they are and measure them against builds that do not use them, and you'll see a clear difference. This isn't a problem of skill, it is a problem of power combinations being significantly stronger than other power combinations to the degree that it more or less breaks the game; it is about attaining a somewhat reasonable balance, instead of a completely ludicrous one.