It makes PVE too easy (it is already easy enough, but AD rotation makes it laughable),
As does a bunch of other stuff. Some of the content in the game is laughably easy ( if you're at the upper end of the spectrum of development that gets funneled into that content ) and it's basically going to stay that way due to that funnel. The solution, which they're implementing, is to give us big boys something tougher to chew on.
Listen I go into alerts and beast them everyday and I get complaints once in a blue moon. More often than not I get people thanking me or talking about how cool I am. This is a small issue that can't be solved without messing up a lot of other stuff, and it's smaller now than it was 2 years ago.
"Endgame demands performance" Yes, it does, but it doesn't require 2 ADs in rotation, which has been confirmed many times; so the point you're making is invalid.
It doesn't require a lot of things, and that fact is no basis for further restricting people's choices in taking those things, so the point you're making is invalid.
You're trying to defend it by saying "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it"
I actually explained why you have to get used to it too. The fact that "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it" is all you got out of that explanation makes me wonder why you're bothering to respond to people if you're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion.
Oh, and "there's a pvper who has beaten "this""; yes, ofcourse there is, but take the skill level of the player into consideration; if both people have a good knowledge of the game, the person with rotating ADs is going to have a massive advantage. It isn't about "oh, someone has beaten it before", because there are factors there that aren't being measured; player skill, other powers, gear, stats. Take the power combinations as they are and measure them against builds that do not use them, and you'll see a clear difference. This isn't a problem of skill, it is a problem of power combinations being significantly stronger than other power combinations to the degree that it more or less breaks the game; it is about attaining a somewhat reasonable balance, instead of a completely ludicrous one.
Yeah, and that's why they nerfed the ability of players to rotate ADs 2 years ago. You probably just need more burst damage. Good luck!
Some people still PvP and think it's fun. Hero games actually popped several times yesterday and I saw people with all kinds of builds participating. My sentinel tank still manages to beat people sometimes despite having low dps, so either you are making ADs into a bigger deal than they really are, or a lot of people don't rotate ADs.
Some people still PvP and think it's fun. Hero games actually popped several times yesterday and I saw people with all kinds of builds participating. My sentinel tank still manages to beat people sometimes despite having low dps, so either you are making ADs into a bigger deal than they really are, or a lot of people don't rotate ADs.
Irrelevant point; AD rotation when measured against other power combinations still over performs whether you try to portray it as if it isn't widespread or not. One pvp pop in a week isn't evidence enough to say it isn't rife. Most who pvp now anyway don't even queue herogames because they don't expect it to pop; they seem to just stick to duels mostly.
Performance wise you can see for yourself AD rotation over performs, that is what is important, not how many people you or I think are exploiting it. You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Oh, and let me guess, your "sentinel tank" uses AD rotation?
Some people still PvP and think it's fun. Hero games actually popped several times yesterday and I saw people with all kinds of builds participating. My sentinel tank still manages to beat people sometimes despite having low dps, so either you are making ADs into a bigger deal than they really are, or a lot of people don't rotate ADs.
Irrelevant point; AD rotation when measured against other power combinations still over performs whether you try to portray it as if it isn't widespread or not. One pvp pop in a week isn't evidence enough to say it isn't rife. Most who pvp now anyway don't even queue herogames because they don't expect it to pop; they seem to just stick to duels mostly.
Performance wise you can see for yourself AD rotation over performs, that is what is important, not how many people you or I think are exploiting it. You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Oh, and let me guess, your "sentinel tank" uses AD rotation?
I'm not saying no one uses it. I'm saying if it was as big of a problem as you are acting like it is, I would almost never win because my dps is pretty low compared to most PvPers. And no, I can't rotate ADs because one of my 2 ADs is Resurgence.
It makes PVE too easy (it is already easy enough, but AD rotation makes it laughable),
As does a bunch of other stuff. Some of the content in the game is laughably easy ( if you're at the upper end of the spectrum of development that gets funneled into that content ) and it's basically going to stay that way due to that funnel. The solution, which they're implementing, is to give us big boys something tougher to chew on.
Listen I go into alerts and beast them everyday and I get complaints once in a blue moon. More often than not I get people thanking me or talking about how cool I am. This is a small issue that can't be solved without messing up a lot of other stuff, and it's smaller now than it was 2 years ago.
"Endgame demands performance" Yes, it does, but it doesn't require 2 ADs in rotation, which has been confirmed many times; so the point you're making is invalid.
It doesn't require a lot of things, and that fact is no basis for further restricting people's choices in taking those things, so the point you're making is invalid.
You're trying to defend it by saying "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it"
I actually explained why you have to get used to it too. The fact that "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it" is all you got out of that explanation makes me wonder why you're bothering to respond to people if you're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion.
Oh, and "there's a pvper who has beaten "this""; yes, ofcourse there is, but take the skill level of the player into consideration; if both people have a good knowledge of the game, the person with rotating ADs is going to have a massive advantage. It isn't about "oh, someone has beaten it before", because there are factors there that aren't being measured; player skill, other powers, gear, stats. Take the power combinations as they are and measure them against builds that do not use them, and you'll see a clear difference. This isn't a problem of skill, it is a problem of power combinations being significantly stronger than other power combinations to the degree that it more or less breaks the game; it is about attaining a somewhat reasonable balance, instead of a completely ludicrous one.
Yeah, and that's why they nerfed the ability of players to rotate ADs 2 years ago. You probably just need more burst damage. Good luck!
It is restricting in choice by leaving it in; why can't you see that? So you're going to fight to the death with someone, you have the option of taking a knife, or a fully loaded gun, which do you take? Most people would take the one that they believe increases their chance of victory, in this case it would be the gun. Another example ? Imagine you're competing in a drag race, but one person has to do it on foot, while the other gets a car...Who is going to actively choose to weaken themselves? Very few people; and this applies to PVE and PVP by the way. Why would someone pick the inferior abilities when they'll do better without them? This isn't limiting people directly, but it is limiting people by presenting them a choice that would be foolish to turn down if they want the best performance out of their build.
Balance frees people, imbalance restricts them indirectly to certain builds.
"but it doesn't matter in PVE because you're not directly competing" and this just brings things back to feeling useful on a team, which i've covered enough already. As you seem to already be aware, people don't take kindly to being dead weight on a team; they might as well be watching someone play champions online rather than playing themselves.
My interest in other people's opinions on the matter are that they are mostly irrelevant, it is the facts that are important, any idiot can throw their poorly thought out opinion, i'm just here to tell them how poorly thought out it is, and draw attention the the fact that it is just that : an opinion; an opinion that is more likely than not based on the fact that they themselves exploit AD rotation. The fact is AD rotation objectively over performs when a comparison is drawn, opinions cannot change that.
And time and time again i find myself having to explain that YES there are other issues with the game, this is just one part of a lot of problems the game has. The other issues can be addressed in other threads, this one is focused on AD rotation.
Oh, and you're fooling no one by saying people can't still rotate ADs. They tried to fix it, and failed, which is why attention needs to be brought back to it. I'm sorry, but your crutch is spoiling the game; and i don't care how many people use it in their builds, when measured against the vast majority of powers it greatly over performs to a game breaking degree for PVE, and PVP.
It is restricting in choice by leaving it in; why can't you see that?
Because what I don't see is all these people that you claim are cycling ADs. I also don't see people who feel restricted to having to take both MD and Unbreakable. There was a time where the games meta made it feel that way, but that was about two years ago.
and i don't care how many people use it in their builds
But the entire basis for your argument is that people feel compelled to use this.. and now you say that it's irrelevant if they do? Fact is, true imbalance has results in player action, so if you're abandoning the idea that this supposed imbalance is causing any particular player action then you're abandoning the idea that the imbalance is significant.
You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Considering the population that pvps is roughly 20% of the population of the game (I'm being generous here), 80 percent of that means that only about roughly 16% of the population use it for pvp. I'm not sure how many pvers use it, I don't myself, but I'm sure some do use it. So, lets be generous again and say that 25% of the population uses it. After all, most people you see running around are silver players on their ATs (some don't even have an AD). So, a small amount of the players of the game use it and you think its OP as hell because of pvp. Do you realize that balancing anything around pvp in this game kills pve way more than it should? Are you trying to add difficulty to pve that doesn't need to be there?
Some people still PvP and think it's fun. Hero games actually popped several times yesterday and I saw people with all kinds of builds participating. My sentinel tank still manages to beat people sometimes despite having low dps, so either you are making ADs into a bigger deal than they really are, or a lot of people don't rotate ADs.
Irrelevant point; AD rotation when measured against other power combinations still over performs whether you try to portray it as if it isn't widespread or not. One pvp pop in a week isn't evidence enough to say it isn't rife. Most who pvp now anyway don't even queue herogames because they don't expect it to pop; they seem to just stick to duels mostly.
Performance wise you can see for yourself AD rotation over performs, that is what is important, not how many people you or I think are exploiting it. You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Oh, and let me guess, your "sentinel tank" uses AD rotation?
I'm not saying no one uses it. I'm saying if it was as big of a problem as you are acting like it is, I would almost never win because my dps is pretty low compared to most PvPers. And no, I can't rotate ADs because one of my 2 ADs is Resurgence.
In my original post i specified that i'm referring to MD and unbreakable being the biggest problem, i referred to resurgence as one of the lesser ADs. And it is a problem when compared directly to other powers, unless you think massive imbalance isn't a problem.
It is restricting in choice by leaving it in; why can't you see that?
Because what I don't see is all these people that you claim are cycling ADs. I also don't see people who feel restricted to having to take both MD and Unbreakable. There was a time where the games meta made it feel that way, but that was about two years ago.
and i don't care how many people use it in their builds
But the entire basis for your argument is that people feel compelled to use this.. and now you say that it's irrelevant if they do? Fact is, true imbalance has results in player action, so if you're abandoning the idea that this supposed imbalance is causing any particular player action then you're abandoning the idea that the imbalance is significant.
any idiot can throw their poorly thought out opinion
Well, at least you've proven that much. Now you just need to learn the different between opinions and facts.
You don't see all these people cycling ADs because it suits your narrative, do you know how confirmation bias works? I suggest you look it up. Then you'll likely accuse me of the same thing, but as i've said, i have no other reason than to make the game better for why i'm putting this forward; there is nothing i myself directly gain from this change, other than everyone indirectly gaining a fairer game. YOU and the people who AD cycle DO have something to lose, you want AD rotation because you use AD rotation, and you want to hang on to your broken power combinations like all those who argued for all the other broken powers that have been fixed on this game and many others.
Your videos are a different issue altogether, but let me shatter your little delusion that they somehow prove something against what i've said. Did I say AD rotation was the only problem? No, I said the game was easy anyway without AD rotation; it just becomes completely effortless with AD rotation, as in, no risk. Once again you're not seeing the part of my argument where i already said that, because it suits your narrative to ignore it. This just proves to me you can't see past your own bias.
Did i say it was irrelevant? No, i said it is "beyond easy" to the point that it is basically cheating, that is different than just "easy", so NO, i did not say it was "irrelevant"; once again you're ignoring the fact that i covered this already due to your own bias. Player action is NOT something that can be balanced, you can't reach into someones brain and stop them from playing a certain way, which is why that is off the table for balancing obviously. So the closest you're going to get to balance is by balancing the powers directly, the part of the game they DO control. Of course the term "player action" is a broad one, so you'll have to be more specific on the context of it's use here.
But regardless, the entire point you're making was built on the premise that i was saying whether people use AD rotation or not is "irrelevant", basically you're trying to strawman me, but i don't think you're doing it intentionally, i just think you're leaving out the parts i say that threaten your arguments because of confirmation bias.
Oh, and i notice you left PVP out this time, as i guess you've realized it is undeniable that when measured against other powers it greatly over performs.
If i need to learn the difference between opinions and fact, you need to learn the same with the addition of being able to see past your own bias. Honestly, if you people were capable of seeing past your bias, i wouldn't have to repeat myself so often.
Some people still PvP and think it's fun. Hero games actually popped several times yesterday and I saw people with all kinds of builds participating. My sentinel tank still manages to beat people sometimes despite having low dps, so either you are making ADs into a bigger deal than they really are, or a lot of people don't rotate ADs.
Irrelevant point; AD rotation when measured against other power combinations still over performs whether you try to portray it as if it isn't widespread or not. One pvp pop in a week isn't evidence enough to say it isn't rife. Most who pvp now anyway don't even queue herogames because they don't expect it to pop; they seem to just stick to duels mostly.
Performance wise you can see for yourself AD rotation over performs, that is what is important, not how many people you or I think are exploiting it. You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Oh, and let me guess, your "sentinel tank" uses AD rotation?
I'm not saying no one uses it. I'm saying if it was as big of a problem as you are acting like it is, I would almost never win because my dps is pretty low compared to most PvPers. And no, I can't rotate ADs because one of my 2 ADs is Resurgence.
In my original post i specified that i'm referring to MD and unbreakable being the biggest problem, i referred to resurgence as one of the lesser ADs. And it is a problem when compared directly to other powers, unless you think massive imbalance isn't a problem.
Yeah I know. I only mentioned that I have Resurgence because you accused me of using AD rotation.
You keep harping on about it as if it's the biggest problem, then you get all offended when people point out how much you've mentioned it. So which is it? Huge problem worth repeatedly typing defensive essays about, or just another thing that focusing on wouldn't solve? Pick a position and get back to me.
Your videos are a different issue altogether, but let me shatter your little delusion that they somehow prove something against what i've said.
You keep insinuating that I cycle ADs. I proved that I didn't. So once that claim of yours was destroyed you conveniently tried to move the goal posts to avoid admitting that you had been proven wrong. Shame on you.
You keep harping on about it as if it's the biggest problem, then you get all offended when people point out how much you've mentioned it. So which is it? Huge problem worth repeatedly typing defensive essays about, or just another thing that focusing on wouldn't solve? Pick a position and get back to me.
Your videos are a different issue altogether, but let me shatter your little delusion that they somehow prove something against what i've said.
You keep insinuating that I cycle ADs. I proved that I didn't. So once that claim of yours was destroyed you conveniently tried to move the goal posts to avoid admitting that you had been proven wrong. Shame on you.
Yes, i see all the people cycling ADs, but that merely brings it back to the point that my only reason for arguing against them is to make the game better; not because i want to preserve my cheats; hence why i am not biased, i covered this already..
This thread is dedicated to AD rotation; i want to focus on that problem here; i don't want to confuse the thread by taking on multiple topics at once; topics that deserve their own thread in my opinion.
You've used AD rotation, therefore you think it is fair, to say it is not would be to say you played unfairly back when you did use it. Why would you attack yourself on your past actions? You've nothing to gain from that other than to discredit yourself. Most people don't like to discredit themselves.
Ofcourse you might have multiple builds/characters, you may have changed back to AD rotation since making those videos, there are so many things just those videos do not prove.
I've used AD rotation before, i KNOW it is unfair. I KNOW it over performs, stop trying to direct the issue away from the fact it objectively overperforms. All your video does is attempt to prove that you're not biased, but it doesn't even do that because you could have more builds, or have changed, AND we know you have used AD rotation before. Your video proves nothing in that regard.
Ask yourself, what do i have to gain from saying AD rotation is broken, when i also can use AD rotation if i choose to?
Part of the problem is that you keep misrepresenting its affects on PvE. It does NOT "ruin things for others". That's massive DPS that kills everything before most can target. More survivablity doesn't have the power to "ruin things for others". It just means you don't die as much as others.
So it harms PvE not at all. Zero. Might even be helpful in a team situation.
Which leaves your PvP complaint, and most don't care about that.
More survivablity doesn't have the power to "ruin things for others".
It does indirectly by encouraging increasingly high damage NPCs to compensate.
Actually, thats the fault of the wardicator/guardicator loop (and other defensive specs that are abused), not ad cycling. Get rid of that loop, and suddenly everyone will want to cycle ads simply because that will become the only way to survive. Or not, who can truly say.
Your feedback is wrong, but you are also wrong. So props on double wrongness?
First, what is this game you speak of that is trivialised by AD rotations? Missions? Alerts? Big woop, no one runs the former, and the latter are supposed to be trivial and easy.
Second, I'd like to see you trivialise content such as Cosmic and TA with Masterful Dodge AND UNBREAKABLE LMAO. You know how many hits can Unbreakable protect you from in Cosmics? 0. They break through it like a hot knife on already melted butter and some damage even goes through.
Actually, thats the fault of the wardicator/guardicator loop (and other defensive specs that are abused), not ad cycling.
More durable characters in general encourage harder hitting monsters; it's not really any one thing (some of the most durable characters are not wardicators). Thus we now have (non-frenzied) Teleiosaurus hitting a single target for 200k damage.
Yes, i see all the people cycling ADs, but that merely brings it back to the point that my only reason for arguing against them is to make the game better; not because i want to preserve my cheats; hence why i am not biased, i covered this already..
You're biased because you want ADs nerfed so you can win duels more. Many people in this thread have covered that already.
You've used AD rotation, therefore you think it is fair, to say it is not would be to say you played unfairly back when you did use it. Why would you attack yourself on your past actions? You've nothing to gain from that other than to discredit yourself. Most people don't like to discredit themselves.
I dunno you seem to enjoy discrediting yourself constantly. Either that or you think people haven't figured out what this is all really about for you. The "No no guys I want this because it's better for the game!" thing hasn't flown since page 1 of this thread.
Ofcourse you might have multiple builds/characters, you may have changed back to AD rotation since making those videos, there are so many things just those videos do not prove.
So you go on about facts, but refuse any facts presented to you. Again, you seem to enjoy discrediting yourself.
Actually, thats the fault of the wardicator/guardicator loop (and other defensive specs that are abused), not ad cycling.
More durable characters in general encourage harder hitting monsters; it's not really any one thing (some of the most durable characters are not wardicators). Thus we now have (non-frenzied) Teleiosaurus hitting a single target for 200k damage.
AD cycling wouldn't help against Teliosaurus - that attack chews right through Unbreakable, so how would restricting people to 1 AD change anything in that regard? The only actual result would be nobody ever uses Unbreakable again.
Also, cosmics hitting that hard hasn't really ruined anything for anyone. It just means you need tough tanks for that particular content. As I've shown, delicate little glass cannons still do fine elsewhere.
More survivablity doesn't have the power to "ruin things for others".
It does indirectly by encouraging increasingly high damage NPCs to compensate.
I'll agree with that only in the broadest sense (that it's a possible way survivability can be problematic). I'd be dubious in the extreme if that's the case in this particular matter, though.
Part of the problem is that you keep misrepresenting its affects on PvE. It does NOT "ruin things for others". That's massive DPS that kills everything before most can target. More survivablity doesn't have the power to "ruin things for others". It just means you don't die as much as others.
So it harms PvE not at all. Zero. Might even be helpful in a team situation.
Which leaves your PvP complaint, and most don't care about that.
Ah, so you're finally willing to accept it is a problem in pvp? We're making progress.
Saying "It does NOT ruin things for others" is incorrect, as i can say that as a player, it does ruin things for me. And i know of others who also find it ruins the game. I've also explained in a lot of detail in a previous post WHY it is the case for a lot of people. So don't just say stupid sweeping statements that are completely false, and only apply to the vocal minority of those who would come to this thread to defend AD rotation.
So massive DPS is a problem, but being immortal is perfectly fine? Okay then. Massive DPS is only a problem when it is more than just massive DPS; AD rotation allows that.Are DPS one shotting cosmics? Because that would be the offense equivalent of being immortal while defending against a cosmic.
Yes, and someone being unkillable while the rest of the team is killable is a lot of fun, isn't it? You know, waiting on the ground dead with everyone else while they continue to slowly chip away at the boss.. Very fun.
So it does harm PVE, you'd just rather be immortal.
I hate having to repeat this but : cryptic tried to fix this already; they know it is broken to have your AD up nearly all the time. It objectively over performs when measured against other powers. Balance is important in PVE as well as PVP; you might be able to delude yourself into thinking it doesn't ruin PVE (it is to your benefit to do so if you want to remain immortal), but cryptic don't think so, and neither do the select few who seem to be willing to give up their cheats to make the game a better experience for the majority.
Being a PvE player who has only done PvP duels perhaps a dozen times in all the years I've played CO:
A person rotating two ADs does NOT ruin the game for me. A person with massive DPS and/or AO cycling does NOT ruin the game for me.
Nerfing powers for unnecessary reason WILL ruin the game for me.
Being a PVE player who has done a lot of PVP duels, i can say a person rotating ADs does ruin PVP, unless the rest of their build is completely terrible, and they have no gear equipped. . Also, did you duel people rotating ADs? You didn't mention that, only that it does not ruin PVP for you.
Let me clarify what i mean by AD rotation is so you actually understand; i mean someone who has their active defense on near all the time. You think it is fine for people to be in MD and unbreakable all the time? You think that is well balanced, despite the weakness of ADs is supposed to be their long cooldowns, and that is completely bypassed for minimal sacrifice : one power, and some stats that are beneficial, and most would take anyway regardless of AD rotation or not.
It objectively overperforms when compared to other powers; that can't be denied, and has even been confirmed by cryptic( they even tried to fix it). What you're saying is based just on your own very limited experience, and is backed by your opinion alone.
Yes, i see all the people cycling ADs, but that merely brings it back to the point that my only reason for arguing against them is to make the game better; not because i want to preserve my cheats; hence why i am not biased, i covered this already..
You're biased because you want ADs nerfed so you can win duels more. Many people in this thread have covered that already.
You've used AD rotation, therefore you think it is fair, to say it is not would be to say you played unfairly back when you did use it. Why would you attack yourself on your past actions? You've nothing to gain from that other than to discredit yourself. Most people don't like to discredit themselves.
I dunno you seem to enjoy discrediting yourself constantly. Either that or you think people haven't figured out what this is all really about for you. The "No no guys I want this because it's better for the game!" thing hasn't flown since page 1 of this thread.
Ofcourse you might have multiple builds/characters, you may have changed back to AD rotation since making those videos, there are so many things just those videos do not prove.
So you go on about facts, but refuse any facts presented to you. Again, you seem to enjoy discrediting yourself.
Actually, thats the fault of the wardicator/guardicator loop (and other defensive specs that are abused), not ad cycling.
More durable characters in general encourage harder hitting monsters; it's not really any one thing (some of the most durable characters are not wardicators). Thus we now have (non-frenzied) Teleiosaurus hitting a single target for 200k damage.
AD cycling wouldn't help against Teliosaurus - that attack chews right through Unbreakable, so how would restricting people to 1 AD change anything in that regard? The only actual result would be nobody ever uses Unbreakable again.
Also, cosmics hitting that hard hasn't really ruined anything for anyone. It just means you need tough tanks for that particular content. As I've shown, delicate little glass cannons still do fine elsewhere.
My you're a glutton for punishment aren't you?
I'm biased because i want to win more duels? Oh, but you're forgetting one thing.. If my goal was to win more duels, wouldn't I just rotate active defense? Wouldn't switching to a build using the very thing i'm claiming to be the logical step to winning more duels? I already pointed that out, and yet you've failed to mention it AGAIN. Once more leaving out the information that counters the point you're making.
So basically, you don't believe my intentions, yet the argument you've put forward for my "true" intentions can be countered with very basic logic that i've already presented in a previous post...
Did i refuse your "facts" ? No, i merely pointed out you're showing us a very small sample of a bigger picture; you've cut the small sample out that suits the narrative you're trying to spin, and left the rest out.
That last point you're making only proves the point that only 1 AD is required; meaning two are overkill. Therefore AD rotation is not a necessity for PVE in your own words; although this point was already quite thoroughly proven anyway in previous posts, it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
Wouldn't switching to a build using the very thing i'm claiming to be the logical step to winning more duels?
No, because you tried that and realized that even after you started using ADs you simply weren't good enough to win as many duels as you thought you should so you headed to the forums to try to get the obstacle nerfed - a lot of people find that out when they try to be all sneaky and use all the tricks they see the people beating them use, then realize that there's a skill factor involved that they don't have. You're not the first one to try this either, I've seen people trying the same thing since WoW and I'm sure older gamers saw it before that.
Did i refuse your "facts" ? No, i merely pointed out you're showing us a very small sample of a bigger picture; you've cut the small sample out that suits the narrative you're trying to spin, and left the rest out.
So now you're trying to say that back in December I started a thread of videos showing me playing various toons and specifically crafted that thread and its videos to defeat your argument in a thread that started in January?
That last point you're making only proves the point that only 1 AD is required; meaning two are overkill. Therefore AD rotation is not a necessity for PVE in your own words; although this point was already quite thoroughly proven anyway in previous posts, it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
I've never claimed it was a necessity. I have however pointed out that something not being a necessity is no reason to restrict players from taking it - a point that you have never successfully refuted. If your "players can only take what is necessary" paradigm was implemented than we would have an even more boring and lackluster game than we would have if we were only allowed to play ATs.
it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
Except I'm not "for AD rotation". My position is that AD rotation is an issue that was solved long ago and that the actual issue that you're trying to solve is "eva loses too many duels". Sorry to take that "the opposition agrees with me!" victory away from you bud.
Ah, so you're finally willing to accept it is a problem in pvp? We're making progress.
Where did you get that? I said that all it leaves is your complaint, and indicated that it's irrelevant and pointless.
Frankly, I'm done discussing it with you. Your arguments are full of gaping holes, you simply repeat your assertions with weak or non-existent rationale, a bunch of people in this thread have time and again laid out where you're wrong and your response is to repeat the things they indicated are wrong.
So massive DPS is a problem, but being immortal is perfectly fine? Okay then. Massive DPS is only a problem when it is more than just massive DPS; AD rotation allows that.Are DPS one shotting cosmics? Because that would be the offense equivalent of being immortal while defending against a cosmic.
Haha I'd like to see someone try and make a build that is immortal against cosmics. Even the toughest tanks get squished by cosmics if they don't have a healer and AD rotation won't help you at all in that situation. Unless you are talking about event cosmics or something like that, but those don't do anywhere near the damage of real cosmics.
Wouldn't switching to a build using the very thing i'm claiming to be the logical step to winning more duels?
No, because you tried that and realized that even after you started using ADs you simply weren't good enough to win as many duels as you thought you should so you headed to the forums to try to get the obstacle nerfed - a lot of people find that out when they try to be all sneaky and use all the tricks they see the people beating them use, then realize that there's a skill factor involved that they don't have. You're not the first one to try this either, I've seen people trying the same thing since WoW and I'm sure older gamers saw it before that.
Did i refuse your "facts" ? No, i merely pointed out you're showing us a very small sample of a bigger picture; you've cut the small sample out that suits the narrative you're trying to spin, and left the rest out.
So now you're trying to say that back in December I started a thread of videos showing me playing various toons and specifically crafted that thread and its videos to defeat your argument in a thread that started in January?
That last point you're making only proves the point that only 1 AD is required; meaning two are overkill. Therefore AD rotation is not a necessity for PVE in your own words; although this point was already quite thoroughly proven anyway in previous posts, it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
I've never claimed it was a necessity. I have however pointed out that something not being a necessity is no reason to restrict players from taking it - a point that you have never successfully refuted. If your "players can only take what is necessary" paradigm was implemented than we would have an even more boring and lackluster game than we would have if we were only allowed to play ATs.
it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
Except I'm not "for AD rotation". My position is that AD rotation is an issue that was solved long ago and that the actual issue that you're trying to solve is "eva loses too many duels". Sorry to take that "the opposition agrees with me!" victory away from you bud.
The point i was making is that he basically gave up on trying to put up an argument for PVP because he has nothing that has not already been thoroughly countered. His argument was "well no one cares about PVP" and unless he is everyone (i'm pretty sure he isn't) he cannot possibly make such a claim.
Bully? Masochist is more likely.
You're obviously trying to troll with this next one surely. So i tried AD rotation so i'd win more duels, i didn't win more duels with AD rotation, and so i went to the forums to try and change it? That is quite the stretch. Time to break out the simple logic again... I don't have any builds that use AD rotation, so once again you're utterly wrong, i've tried AD rotation, sure; i had great success, but then that is just your word against mine; and as we've covered already, your word is horribly biased. It doesn't change the fact that as a setup it greatly overperforms... Cryptic did not fix it, as it is still possible to rotate them with but a few seconds inbetween. The very purpose of that fix was to prevent ADs from being rotated like they are currently being rotated.
Yes, pressing a key at any point during combat to continue being immortal requires the most precises timing and skill..Surely even you must be looking at what you're typing and realize you're grasping at straws here, it is a factual landslide in my favor.
Did i say you specifically crafted a thread for this purpose? No, i said the thread fits the narrative you're trying to spin, so you brought it up; however as i've pointed out it doesn't show the entire picture. The bigger picture being that you've used AD rotation before, you could have other builds that use AD rotation, you may have changed your build since those videos were made.
"something not being a necessity is no reason to restrict it" Oh, so if you could hack the game that would be fine then? Okay...There is a necessity to "restrict" (but as i've explained in another post it isn't true restriction, as imbalance indirectly restricts people, where as balance frees people) when it causes problems in every other aspect of the game; unless you want a game that basically allows you to cheat, which apparently you do. Then of course you'll argue "it doesn't break the game! i saw it with my own eyes!" Which is when i point you to measuring the difference it makes when compared to other power setups. You know, the facts. If may "feel" like it is completely fine and balanced, but when looked at objectively it simply greatly overperforms. Consider the point refuted.
Oh, and "taking what is necessary is boring" lies completely in the realms of personal preference. You see i could say "taking what is unnecessary is boring" and it would be equally as valid; except what you're labeling as "unnecessary" would be more suited to being labeled "overkill"; it might be unnecessary, but it has a HUGE impact on gameplay.
Ah, so you're finally willing to accept it is a problem in pvp? We're making progress.
Where did you get that? I said that all it leaves is your complaint, and indicated that it's irrelevant and pointless.
Frankly, I'm done discussing it with you. Your arguments are full of gaping holes, you simply repeat your assertions with weak or non-existent rationale, a bunch of people in this thread have time and again laid out where you're wrong and your response is to repeat the things they indicated are wrong.
I get enough of that crap from my new President.
As i said in the above post, you have no argument for PVP, other than "no one cares", which i proceeded to disprove because you cannot speak for everyone.
Yes, my argument is full of holes, holes you appear incapable of pointing out..I wonder why?
I, and many others have actively countered every point put forth in this thread. Even Cryptic through there actions have shown they don't want AD rotation to be a thing.. You have nothing but your opinion formed from your own bias.
So massive DPS is a problem, but being immortal is perfectly fine? Okay then. Massive DPS is only a problem when it is more than just massive DPS; AD rotation allows that.Are DPS one shotting cosmics? Because that would be the offense equivalent of being immortal while defending against a cosmic.
Haha I'd like to see someone try and make a build that is immortal against cosmics. Even the toughest tanks get squished by cosmics if they don't have a healer and AD rotation won't help you at all in that situation. Unless you are talking about event cosmics or something like that, but those don't do anywhere near the damage of real cosmics.
You're right that it would depend on the cosmic. There are some cosmics where a healer would of course be required.
AD rotation makes a player immortal? Just....what?
MD + Unbreakable cycling is overpowered? A single huge spike attack is all it takes to kill off an active Unbreakable. It's laughable how often it happens, especially when fighting cosmics. MD is generally the more favorable AD to have, since its 15s of active DR compared to temporary shield points or a one-shot fat heal, but even then MD is meant to compliment already existing forms of passive DR and present healing powers, and not act as a substitute.
Even then these days if you want to minimize the cooldown time differences between multiple ADs, taking AoAC is a must. You'd have to dedicate your build to CDR more than ever since the CDR nerf hit, and compromising your build in other areas it could actually be efficient in. AoAC doesn't even have the most minimal of DR buffs (It has zero). You want to do all of that just so you could cycle AD? If so you're off your rocker, because this notion that AD-cycling somehow makes up for taking AoAC and makes you superior to actual builds out there that handle survivability way better couldn't be further from reality.
I mean go ahead, somehow make a build so that it takes just a few seconds to cycle between ADs and go toe-to-toe with cosmics, we'll see how immortal you really are.
Also for the record notice how you came up a differing view opposed to the loud minority and you get attacked as well as belittled. This Champions is the problem with your game your toxic single minded minority that speaks sadly for the majority of the good souls on this game. But still rooting for those folks because every dog has its day eventually.
The point i was making is that he basically gave up on trying to put up an argument for PVP because he has nothing that has not already been thoroughly countered.
You still haven't effectively countered the fact that people with dual ADs have been beaten in duels, many times. He's not giving up arguing on the point of PvP - he's waiting for you to refute all the facts presented to you already.
Yes, pressing a key at any point during combat to continue being immortal requires the most precises timing and skill..Surely even you must be looking at what you're typing and realize you're grasping at straws here, it is a factual landslide in my favor.
Actually, what requires skill is defeating people who use ADs. People were actually able to do it two years ago before they fixed AD cycling. Doing it now is significantly easier.
Did i say you specifically crafted a thread for this purpose? No, i said the thread fits the narrative you're trying to spin, so you brought it up; however as i've pointed out it doesn't show the entire picture. The bigger picture being that you've used AD rotation before, you could have other builds that use AD rotation, you may have changed your build since those videos were made.
So someone gives you facts and you imagine them away. Okay then.
Oh, and "taking what is necessary is boring" lies completely in the realms of personal preference. You see i could say "taking what is unnecessary is boring" and it would be equally as valid; except what you're labeling as "unnecessary" would be more suited to being labeled "overkill"; it might be unnecessary, but it has a HUGE impact on gameplay.
Yes, and because it's up to personal preference that's why it's important that we preserve the ability of players to choose, rather than trying to lock them into "only one" selections, especially ones as arbitrary as the one you're suggesting. You acknowledge that there are other issues, but of course you only picked the one that you're mad at cause duels. You're obvious.
Also for the record notice how you came up a differing view opposed to the loud minority and you get attacked as well as belittled. This Champions is the problem with your game your toxic single minded minority that speaks sadly for the majority of the good souls on this game. But still rooting for those folks because every dog has its day eventually.
Actually, if you look at the thread, Eva seems to be the noisy minority :'3
Yes, my argument is full of holes, holes you appear incapable of pointing out..I wonder why?
After reading this I think back to all the times you repeatedly declared yourself the victor in this thread. I'm still wondering what you think you've won - your suggestion isn't going live.
I hopped on to the PTS to grab some hard facts to put to rest the arguments that "AD Cycling isn't possible anymore"... Here is what I found:
From CDR utility gear with Impact Prisms and Int mods(2xR7 1xR5) you can get the shared CD down to just 21 seconds. That's a 6 second gap with only 240 Int and +494 CDR, and that's just from Utility gear... that leaves you with all your offense and defense gear to do whatever you want. Also, that is without Rec or Int Primary and without AoAC.
For my test build I went STR/Con/Int with Wardicator and Defiance as my passive.
Note: AD shared CDs can be reduced significantly more with REC primary or with INT Primary and Growth Offense, and obviously AoAC, additionally Protector spec has Defensive Expertise for even more CDR.
So even without the big hitters to CDR you can STILL easily cut the gap from 15 seconds down to 6 seconds... that's barely over 1/3 of the original gap. And 6 seconds is a very short window... Additionally that's with R7 mods... With R8 or R9 you can expect a smaller gap, easily 4 or 5 seconds.
SO, yes AD rotating is undeniably still possible with very little investment. You do NOT require AoAC, INT or REC primary, Defensive Expertise, and a single stat focus on Int.
Image was taken at the exact moment MD was activated, Note the 15 seconds on the MD buff and 21 seconds on Unbreakable's CD.
As yet another reminder: I am NOT in favor of restricting to 1 AD... I firmly believe that the ONLY solution to this problem is to make the shared CD static so that no matter how much CDR you have it will always be 30 seconds... Honestly I think it should be bumped up to 45 seconds, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter... the facts however are that the CD needs to be static, period.
I hopped on to the PTS to grab some hard facts to put to rest the arguments that "AD Cycling isn't possible anymore"... Here is what I found:
From CDR utility gear with Impact Prisms and Int mods(2xR7 1xR5) you can get the shared CD down to just 21 seconds. That's a 6 second gap with only 240 Int and +494 CDR, and that's just from Utility gear... that leaves you with all your offense and defense gear to do whatever you want. Also, that is without Rec or Int Primary and without AoAC.
For my test build I went STR/Con/Int with Wardicator and Defiance as my passive.
Note: AD shared CDs can be reduced significantly more with REC primary or with INT Primary and Growth Offense, and obviously AoAC, additionally Protector spec has Defensive Expertise for even more CDR.
So even without the big hitters to CDR you can STILL easily cut the gap from 15 seconds down to 6 seconds... that's barely over 1/3 of the original gap. And 6 seconds is a very short window... Additionally that's with R7 mods... With R8 or R9 you can expect a smaller gap, easily 4 or 5 seconds.
SO, yes AD rotating is undeniably still possible with very little investment. You do NOT require AoAC, INT or REC primary, Defensive Expertise, and a single stat focus on Int.
Image was taken at the exact moment MD was activated, Note the 15 seconds on the MD buff and 21 seconds on Unbreakable's CD.
As yet another reminder: I am NOT in favor of restricting to 1 AD... I firmly believe that the ONLY solution to this problem is to make the shared CD static so that no matter how much CDR you have it will always be 30 seconds... Honestly I think it should be bumped up to 45 seconds, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter... the facts however are that the CD needs to be static, period.
Than the obvious solution is to force all ADs to share the same CD instead of only a short CD.
I hopped on to the PTS to grab some hard facts to put to rest the arguments that "AD Cycling isn't possible anymore"... Here is what I found:
From CDR utility gear with Impact Prisms and Int mods(2xR7 1xR5) you can get the shared CD down to just 21 seconds. That's a 6 second gap with only 240 Int and +494 CDR, and that's just from Utility gear... that leaves you with all your offense and defense gear to do whatever you want. Also, that is without Rec or Int Primary and without AoAC.
For my test build I went STR/Con/Int with Wardicator and Defiance as my passive.
Note: AD shared CDs can be reduced significantly more with REC primary or with INT Primary and Growth Offense, and obviously AoAC, additionally Protector spec has Defensive Expertise for even more CDR.
So even without the big hitters to CDR you can STILL easily cut the gap from 15 seconds down to 6 seconds... that's barely over 1/3 of the original gap. And 6 seconds is a very short window... Additionally that's with R7 mods... With R8 or R9 you can expect a smaller gap, easily 4 or 5 seconds.
SO, yes AD rotating is undeniably still possible with very little investment. You do NOT require AoAC, INT or REC primary, Defensive Expertise, and a single stat focus on Int.
Image was taken at the exact moment MD was activated, Note the 15 seconds on the MD buff and 21 seconds on Unbreakable's CD.
As yet another reminder: I am NOT in favor of restricting to 1 AD... I firmly believe that the ONLY solution to this problem is to make the shared CD static so that no matter how much CDR you have it will always be 30 seconds... Honestly I think it should be bumped up to 45 seconds, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter... the facts however are that the CD needs to be static, period.
Than the obvious solution is to force all ADs to share the same CD instead of only a short CD.
No... the shortened shared CD exists for a reason, putting them all on a full shared CD would honestly be no better than hard-limiting to 1... The shortened shared CD is fine, what is not fine is that the shared CD is affected by CDR... that is really the only problem... as for the reason I think the shared CD should be 45 seconds... bumping it up to 45 seconds means there is a solid 30 second gap between all AD activations, however such a change should only happen if all ADs are given a solid 15 second duration benefit that doesn't matter what your passive is.
You had to make some significant sacrifices to get those numbers, the kind of sacrifices that some dps and tanks would not be willing to make ( especially given the questionable benefits of AD cycling ).
Making the shared cooldown unaffected by CDR would be an infinitely better decision than what the OP is suggesting, though one I'm still questioning the necessity of. AD cycling isn't really a problem anymore.
You had to make some significant sacrifices to get those numbers, the kind of sacrifices that some dps and tanks would not be willing to make ( especially given the questionable benefits of AD cycling ).
Making the shared cooldown unaffected by CDR would be an infinitely better decision than what the OP is suggesting, though one I'm still questioning the necessity of. AD cycling isn't really a problem anymore.
Significant sacrifices? what significant sacrifices? If you mean because my Str and Con are still low, I didn't mod out the rest of my gear, I only put mods in the Utility gear on the test. The test was simply to see how little effort it actually takes to get a low shared CD. and the result was not much at all.
You still have the entirety of 4 prices of gear to stat out however you wish, it didn't rely on specs at all so you can go with whatever you wish for specs. It doesn't require AoAC like some seem to think. It doesn't require Rec Primary (which is the best primary for maximizing CDR)
The only thing that I can see that you might be calling a "significant sacrifice" is the fact that my "energy stat" is higher than 50... which I've seen a lot of min-max optimizers make the wild claim that anything over 50 in an energy stat is a waste. But you've said dozens of times that you arn't a min-max optimizer so something as ridiculous as a 50 point cap on an energy stat shouldn't even register as a sacrifice. And if you are a stickler for a 50 point cap on energy stats, the CD without any of the Int mods was 22 seconds... so that just goes to show you how much the CDR from gear and 2xR7 impact prisms in utility alone will get you...
I'd say slotting 2 Impact Prisms into into a primary gear instead of mods that are more build-relevant for the sole purpose of AD cycling qualifies as a significant sacrifice, especially when my build doesn't rely on a whole lot of cooldown-based powers.
I hopped on to the PTS to grab some hard facts to put to rest the arguments that "AD Cycling isn't possible anymore"... Here is what I found:
From CDR utility gear with Impact Prisms and Int mods(2xR7 1xR5) you can get the shared CD down to just 21 seconds. That's a 6 second gap with only 240 Int and +494 CDR, and that's just from Utility gear... that leaves you with all your offense and defense gear to do whatever you want. Also, that is without Rec or Int Primary and without AoAC.
For my test build I went STR/Con/Int with Wardicator and Defiance as my passive.
Note: AD shared CDs can be reduced significantly more with REC primary or with INT Primary and Growth Offense, and obviously AoAC, additionally Protector spec has Defensive Expertise for even more CDR.
So even without the big hitters to CDR you can STILL easily cut the gap from 15 seconds down to 6 seconds... that's barely over 1/3 of the original gap. And 6 seconds is a very short window... Additionally that's with R7 mods... With R8 or R9 you can expect a smaller gap, easily 4 or 5 seconds.
SO, yes AD rotating is undeniably still possible with very little investment. You do NOT require AoAC, INT or REC primary, Defensive Expertise, and a single stat focus on Int.
I don't think anyone is arguing reducing the CD on ADs is possible. It's that it's a trivial matter at this point and not as abusable as being painted as. Looking at that build, I sincerely doubt it would be moderately effective in PVE/PVP at the higher levels. And all this accomplishes is prove that it would take significant dedication to get this result, which is neither practical nor ideal.
Ya'll are seriously grasping at straws to claim that build as a "significant dedication". It's 2 pieces of gear... and as I mentioned, the Int mods don't even matter... From just CDR gear alone, no mods: 24sec shared CD, that's from just 2 pieces of CDR gear, toss in 1 R7 Impact Utility and you'll drop that to 23seconds. 2 R7 Impacts brings it down to 22seconds. 1 R9 will also bring it down to 22seconds. Past that is when anything else matters.
Is it practical for all builds? No, but the point is it's not a significant investment. It's still easily done for a small investment.
You do NOT require any of the following: Rec Primary Massive Int Stat investment AoAC Defensive Expertise
Simply taking 2 pieces of Speed Utilities and one or 2 impact utility prisms will bring your shared CD to the point that the gap is less than half of the original 15 seconds.
Also, I went and did this test after everyone kept claiming it wasn't possible any more (despite already knowing it was) and then jennymachx's absurd claim that it "requires AoAC and a dedication to CDR". 2 pieces of gear and 1 or 2 mods is hardly a dedication, and AoAC is anything but required.
The point i was making is that he basically gave up on trying to put up an argument for PVP because he has nothing that has not already been thoroughly countered.
You still haven't effectively countered the fact that people with dual ADs have been beaten in duels, many times. He's not giving up arguing on the point of PvP - he's waiting for you to refute all the facts presented to you already.
Yes, pressing a key at any point during combat to continue being immortal requires the most precises timing and skill..Surely even you must be looking at what you're typing and realize you're grasping at straws here, it is a factual landslide in my favor.
Actually, what requires skill is defeating people who use ADs. People were actually able to do it two years ago before they fixed AD cycling. Doing it now is significantly easier.
Did i say you specifically crafted a thread for this purpose? No, i said the thread fits the narrative you're trying to spin, so you brought it up; however as i've pointed out it doesn't show the entire picture. The bigger picture being that you've used AD rotation before, you could have other builds that use AD rotation, you may have changed your build since those videos were made.
So someone gives you facts and you imagine them away. Okay then.
Oh, and "taking what is necessary is boring" lies completely in the realms of personal preference. You see i could say "taking what is unnecessary is boring" and it would be equally as valid; except what you're labeling as "unnecessary" would be more suited to being labeled "overkill"; it might be unnecessary, but it has a HUGE impact on gameplay.
Yes, and because it's up to personal preference that's why it's important that we preserve the ability of players to choose, rather than trying to lock them into "only one" selections, especially ones as arbitrary as the one you're suggesting. You acknowledge that there are other issues, but of course you only picked the one that you're mad at cause duels. You're obvious.
Also for the record notice how you came up a differing view opposed to the loud minority and you get attacked as well as belittled. This Champions is the problem with your game your toxic single minded minority that speaks sadly for the majority of the good souls on this game. But still rooting for those folks because every dog has its day eventually.
Actually, if you look at the thread, Eva seems to be the noisy minority :'3
Yes, my argument is full of holes, holes you appear incapable of pointing out..I wonder why?
After reading this I think back to all the times you repeatedly declared yourself the victor in this thread. I'm still wondering what you think you've won - your suggestion isn't going live.
I never denied that it was impossible to defeat someone in a duel with rotating active defense. I myself have done it many times. It is about the powers themselves being measured against eachother. I also remember saying rotating active defense is not all that matters; you obviously need gear, and other powers; the point i'm making is AD rotation grants a significant advantage for basically no sacrifice other than taking one other power.
Well, anyone who has dueled me on Eve(MD), Ms. Might(MD), Electra(MD), Ms. Frigidity (ice barrier), will know that I only have one active defense, i don't have any other characters i duel on, unless you want me to go through the effort of taking a screenshot of each..But once again, why would I argue against AD rotation while actively using them? Simple logic once again proves that there is no incentive for me to use AD rotation.
I don't disagree that it certainly is easier, but it is still too much of a landslide in their favor for little sacrifice; if they're using a decent build, they have to play pretty badly to end up losing the vast majority of the time against someone with one AD, or none.
The facts were not imagined away, they were addressed as a small part of the bigger picture.
You said yourself "something not being a necessity does not mean we should restrict it", I pointed out that if you go by that logic, you may as well let people cheat.
It is important for players to "choose" to either be completely ineffective by taking lesser power combinations, or be overly effective by taking the broken powers? I've already explained why imbalance is indirectly limiting, don't make me go over it a third time.
I haven't counted, so i wouldn't know if i'm in the minority or not, all i'm seeing is a select few repeatedly posting , but overall i see a pretty balanced ratio of participants. Also i meant generally the noisy minority come to defend their broken abilities, i wasn't referring exclusively to this thread... Being in the minority shouldn't be misconstrued, it certainly doesn't mean they're wrong; for example, i'm the minority in this thread, yet the facts are completely on my side which has been proven time an time again by me, and others. The majority in this thread aren't necessarily the majority on the game either, something else you should consider. Overall, you can't get a good view on the majority's view from just this thread, not by a long way, and even if you could, it wouldn't really mean anything.
What you've got is a lot of people who like AD rotation, and who're trying to paint it as fair; they have an incentive to support this because it makes the game significantly easier for those who use AD rotation, and likely themselves because they too very likely use AD rotation. On the other side, the rest have no reason to argue other than to make the game fairer for everyone; they gain nothing in AD rotation being reduced other than a more balanced game; how can you say these people are biased? You can't, There is nothing they gain personally from having AD rotation fixed; where as those who use AD rotation have a lot to personally gain from using it. Which is why it is easy to say the majority saying "AD rotation is fine!"in this thread can't be trusted on their view... Not only that, i've yet to see them present any FACTS to argue that AD rotation is somehow balanced in comparison to other powers, their only argument being "well, we can still die to a cosmic!".. Seriously, what is wrong with you people? Have some integrity.
You keep acting like ADs are some crazy powerful thing that takes away all challenge from the game, when most of the game is so easy that I usually don't even touch my ADs in anything but PvP and end game content. The reason people keep mentioning cosmics and other end game stuff in their arguments is because it's the only part of PvE that actually has enough challenge for ADs to matter.
Comments
Listen I go into alerts and beast them everyday and I get complaints once in a blue moon. More often than not I get people thanking me or talking about how cool I am. This is a small issue that can't be solved without messing up a lot of other stuff, and it's smaller now than it was 2 years ago.
It doesn't require a lot of things, and that fact is no basis for further restricting people's choices in taking those things, so the point you're making is invalid. I actually explained why you have to get used to it too. The fact that "oh it is just part of the game, so get used to it" is all you got out of that explanation makes me wonder why you're bothering to respond to people if you're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion.
Yeah, and that's why they nerfed the ability of players to rotate ADs 2 years ago. You probably just need more burst damage. Good luck!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Performance wise you can see for yourself AD rotation over performs, that is what is important, not how many people you or I think are exploiting it. You say no one uses it, i say 80% of people i pvp against use it, it is just your word against mine.
Oh, and let me guess, your "sentinel tank" uses AD rotation?
Balance frees people, imbalance restricts them indirectly to certain builds.
"but it doesn't matter in PVE because you're not directly competing" and this just brings things back to feeling useful on a team, which i've covered enough already. As you seem to already be aware, people don't take kindly to being dead weight on a team; they might as well be watching someone play champions online rather than playing themselves.
My interest in other people's opinions on the matter are that they are mostly irrelevant, it is the facts that are important, any idiot can throw their poorly thought out opinion, i'm just here to tell them how poorly thought out it is, and draw attention the the fact that it is just that : an opinion; an opinion that is more likely than not based on the fact that they themselves exploit AD rotation. The fact is AD rotation objectively over performs when a comparison is drawn, opinions cannot change that.
And time and time again i find myself having to explain that YES there are other issues with the game, this is just one part of a lot of problems the game has. The other issues can be addressed in other threads, this one is focused on AD rotation.
Oh, and you're fooling no one by saying people can't still rotate ADs. They tried to fix it, and failed, which is why attention needs to be brought back to it. I'm sorry, but your crutch is spoiling the game; and i don't care how many people use it in their builds, when measured against the vast majority of powers it greatly over performs to a game breaking degree for PVE, and PVP.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1207307/videos-of-various-characters-soloing-the-q-zone/p1
For how you prattle on about facts you sure do seem to forget it pretty quickly when someone shoves some facts in your face.
But the entire basis for your argument is that people feel compelled to use this.. and now you say that it's irrelevant if they do? Fact is, true imbalance has results in player action, so if you're abandoning the idea that this supposed imbalance is causing any particular player action then you're abandoning the idea that the imbalance is significant.
Well, at least you've proven that much. Now you just need to learn the different between opinions and facts.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Your videos are a different issue altogether, but let me shatter your little delusion that they somehow prove something against what i've said. Did I say AD rotation was the only problem? No, I said the game was easy anyway without AD rotation; it just becomes completely effortless with AD rotation, as in, no risk. Once again you're not seeing the part of my argument where i already said that, because it suits your narrative to ignore it. This just proves to me you can't see past your own bias.
Did i say it was irrelevant? No, i said it is "beyond easy" to the point that it is basically cheating, that is different than just "easy", so NO, i did not say it was "irrelevant"; once again you're ignoring the fact that i covered this already due to your own bias. Player action is NOT something that can be balanced, you can't reach into someones brain and stop them from playing a certain way, which is why that is off the table for balancing obviously. So the closest you're going to get to balance is by balancing the powers directly, the part of the game they DO control. Of course the term "player action" is a broad one, so you'll have to be more specific on the context of it's use here.
But regardless, the entire point you're making was built on the premise that i was saying whether people use AD rotation or not is "irrelevant", basically you're trying to strawman me, but i don't think you're doing it intentionally, i just think you're leaving out the parts i say that threaten your arguments because of confirmation bias.
Oh, and i notice you left PVP out this time, as i guess you've realized it is undeniable that when measured against other powers it greatly over performs.
If i need to learn the difference between opinions and fact, you need to learn the same with the addition of being able to see past your own bias. Honestly, if you people were capable of seeing past your bias, i wouldn't have to repeat myself so often.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This thread is dedicated to AD rotation; i want to focus on that problem here; i don't want to confuse the thread by taking on multiple topics at once; topics that deserve their own thread in my opinion.
You've used AD rotation, therefore you think it is fair, to say it is not would be to say you played unfairly back when you did use it. Why would you attack yourself on your past actions? You've nothing to gain from that other than to discredit yourself. Most people don't like to discredit themselves.
Ofcourse you might have multiple builds/characters, you may have changed back to AD rotation since making those videos, there are so many things just those videos do not prove.
I've used AD rotation before, i KNOW it is unfair. I KNOW it over performs, stop trying to direct the issue away from the fact it objectively overperforms. All your video does is attempt to prove that you're not biased, but it doesn't even do that because you could have more builds, or have changed, AND we know you have used AD rotation before. Your video proves nothing in that regard.
Ask yourself, what do i have to gain from saying AD rotation is broken, when i also can use AD rotation if i choose to?
So it harms PvE not at all. Zero. Might even be helpful in a team situation.
Which leaves your PvP complaint, and most don't care about that.
A person rotating two ADs does NOT ruin the game for me. A person with massive DPS and/or AO cycling does NOT ruin the game for me.
Nerfing powers for unnecessary reason WILL ruin the game for me.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Your feedback is wrong, but you are also wrong. So props on double wrongness?
First, what is this game you speak of that is trivialised by AD rotations? Missions? Alerts? Big woop, no one runs the former, and the latter are supposed to be trivial and easy.
Second, I'd like to see you trivialise content such as Cosmic and TA with Masterful Dodge AND UNBREAKABLE LMAO. You know how many hits can Unbreakable protect you from in Cosmics? 0. They break through it like a hot knife on already melted butter and some damage even goes through.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
AD cycling wouldn't help against Teliosaurus - that attack chews right through Unbreakable, so how would restricting people to 1 AD change anything in that regard? The only actual result would be nobody ever uses Unbreakable again.
Also, cosmics hitting that hard hasn't really ruined anything for anyone. It just means you need tough tanks for that particular content. As I've shown, delicate little glass cannons still do fine elsewhere.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Saying "It does NOT ruin things for others" is incorrect, as i can say that as a player, it does ruin things for me. And i know of others who also find it ruins the game. I've also explained in a lot of detail in a previous post WHY it is the case for a lot of people. So don't just say stupid sweeping statements that are completely false, and only apply to the vocal minority of those who would come to this thread to defend AD rotation.
So massive DPS is a problem, but being immortal is perfectly fine? Okay then. Massive DPS is only a problem when it is more than just massive DPS; AD rotation allows that.Are DPS one shotting cosmics? Because that would be the offense equivalent of being immortal while defending against a cosmic.
Yes, and someone being unkillable while the rest of the team is killable is a lot of fun, isn't it? You know, waiting on the ground dead with everyone else while they continue to slowly chip away at the boss.. Very fun.
So it does harm PVE, you'd just rather be immortal.
I hate having to repeat this but : cryptic tried to fix this already; they know it is broken to have your AD up nearly all the time. It objectively over performs when measured against other powers. Balance is important in PVE as well as PVP; you might be able to delude yourself into thinking it doesn't ruin PVE (it is to your benefit to do so if you want to remain immortal), but cryptic don't think so, and neither do the select few who seem to be willing to give up their cheats to make the game a better experience for the majority.
Being a PVE player who has done a lot of PVP duels, i can say a person rotating ADs does ruin PVP, unless the rest of their build is completely terrible, and they have no gear equipped. . Also, did you duel people rotating ADs? You didn't mention that, only that it does not ruin PVP for you.
Let me clarify what i mean by AD rotation is so you actually understand; i mean someone who has their active defense on near all the time. You think it is fine for people to be in MD and unbreakable all the time? You think that is well balanced, despite the weakness of ADs is supposed to be their long cooldowns, and that is completely bypassed for minimal sacrifice : one power, and some stats that are beneficial, and most would take anyway regardless of AD rotation or not.
It objectively overperforms when compared to other powers; that can't be denied, and has even been confirmed by cryptic( they even tried to fix it). What you're saying is based just on your own very limited experience, and is backed by your opinion alone.
I'm biased because i want to win more duels? Oh, but you're forgetting one thing.. If my goal was to win more duels, wouldn't I just rotate active defense? Wouldn't switching to a build using the very thing i'm claiming to be the logical step to winning more duels? I already pointed that out, and yet you've failed to mention it AGAIN. Once more leaving out the information that counters the point you're making.
So basically, you don't believe my intentions, yet the argument you've put forward for my "true" intentions can be countered with very basic logic that i've already presented in a previous post...
Did i refuse your "facts" ? No, i merely pointed out you're showing us a very small sample of a bigger picture; you've cut the small sample out that suits the narrative you're trying to spin, and left the rest out.
That last point you're making only proves the point that only 1 AD is required; meaning two are overkill. Therefore AD rotation is not a necessity for PVE in your own words; although this point was already quite thoroughly proven anyway in previous posts, it is refreshing to see someone for AD rotation saying something that directly negates it's necessity.
No I'm actually a bully who likes going after easy targets. No, because you tried that and realized that even after you started using ADs you simply weren't good enough to win as many duels as you thought you should so you headed to the forums to try to get the obstacle nerfed - a lot of people find that out when they try to be all sneaky and use all the tricks they see the people beating them use, then realize that there's a skill factor involved that they don't have. You're not the first one to try this either, I've seen people trying the same thing since WoW and I'm sure older gamers saw it before that. So now you're trying to say that back in December I started a thread of videos showing me playing various toons and specifically crafted that thread and its videos to defeat your argument in a thread that started in January? I've never claimed it was a necessity. I have however pointed out that something not being a necessity is no reason to restrict players from taking it - a point that you have never successfully refuted. If your "players can only take what is necessary" paradigm was implemented than we would have an even more boring and lackluster game than we would have if we were only allowed to play ATs.
Except I'm not "for AD rotation". My position is that AD rotation is an issue that was solved long ago and that the actual issue that you're trying to solve is "eva loses too many duels". Sorry to take that "the opposition agrees with me!" victory away from you bud.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Frankly, I'm done discussing it with you. Your arguments are full of gaping holes, you simply repeat your assertions with weak or non-existent rationale, a bunch of people in this thread have time and again laid out where you're wrong and your response is to repeat the things they indicated are wrong.
I get enough of that crap from my new President.
Bully? Masochist is more likely.
You're obviously trying to troll with this next one surely. So i tried AD rotation so i'd win more duels, i didn't win more duels with AD rotation, and so i went to the forums to try and change it? That is quite the stretch. Time to break out the simple logic again... I don't have any builds that use AD rotation, so once again you're utterly wrong, i've tried AD rotation, sure; i had great success, but then that is just your word against mine; and as we've covered already, your word is horribly biased. It doesn't change the fact that as a setup it greatly overperforms... Cryptic did not fix it, as it is still possible to rotate them with but a few seconds inbetween. The very purpose of that fix was to prevent ADs from being rotated like they are currently being rotated.
Yes, pressing a key at any point during combat to continue being immortal requires the most precises timing and skill..Surely even you must be looking at what you're typing and realize you're grasping at straws here, it is a factual landslide in my favor.
Did i say you specifically crafted a thread for this purpose? No, i said the thread fits the narrative you're trying to spin, so you brought it up; however as i've pointed out it doesn't show the entire picture. The bigger picture being that you've used AD rotation before, you could have other builds that use AD rotation, you may have changed your build since those videos were made.
"something not being a necessity is no reason to restrict it" Oh, so if you could hack the game that would be fine then? Okay...There is a necessity to "restrict" (but as i've explained in another post it isn't true restriction, as imbalance indirectly restricts people, where as balance frees people) when it causes problems in every other aspect of the game; unless you want a game that basically allows you to cheat, which apparently you do. Then of course you'll argue "it doesn't break the game! i saw it with my own eyes!" Which is when i point you to measuring the difference it makes when compared to other power setups. You know, the facts. If may "feel" like it is completely fine and balanced, but when looked at objectively it simply greatly overperforms. Consider the point refuted.
Oh, and "taking what is necessary is boring" lies completely in the realms of personal preference. You see i could say "taking what is unnecessary is boring" and it would be equally as valid; except what you're labeling as "unnecessary" would be more suited to being labeled "overkill"; it might be unnecessary, but it has a HUGE impact on gameplay.
Yes, my argument is full of holes, holes you appear incapable of pointing out..I wonder why?
I, and many others have actively countered every point put forth in this thread. Even Cryptic through there actions have shown they don't want AD rotation to be a thing.. You have nothing but your opinion formed from your own bias.
AD rotation makes a player immortal? Just....what?
MD + Unbreakable cycling is overpowered? A single huge spike attack is all it takes to kill off an active Unbreakable. It's laughable how often it happens, especially when fighting cosmics. MD is generally the more favorable AD to have, since its 15s of active DR compared to temporary shield points or a one-shot fat heal, but even then MD is meant to compliment already existing forms of passive DR and present healing powers, and not act as a substitute.
Even then these days if you want to minimize the cooldown time differences between multiple ADs, taking AoAC is a must. You'd have to dedicate your build to CDR more than ever since the CDR nerf hit, and compromising your build in other areas it could actually be efficient in. AoAC doesn't even have the most minimal of DR buffs (It has zero). You want to do all of that just so you could cycle AD? If so you're off your rocker, because this notion that AD-cycling somehow makes up for taking AoAC and makes you superior to actual builds out there that handle survivability way better couldn't be further from reality.
I mean go ahead, somehow make a build so that it takes just a few seconds to cycle between ADs and go toe-to-toe with cosmics, we'll see how immortal you really are.
Prove it.
Actually, what requires skill is defeating people who use ADs. People were actually able to do it two years ago before they fixed AD cycling. Doing it now is significantly easier. So someone gives you facts and you imagine them away. Okay then.
So now you're equating cheating with power selections? What was that you said about grasping at straws?
Yes, and because it's up to personal preference that's why it's important that we preserve the ability of players to choose, rather than trying to lock them into "only one" selections, especially ones as arbitrary as the one you're suggesting. You acknowledge that there are other issues, but of course you only picked the one that you're mad at cause duels. You're obvious.
Actually, if you look at the thread, Eva seems to be the noisy minority :'3
After reading this I think back to all the times you repeatedly declared yourself the victor in this thread. I'm still wondering what you think you've won - your suggestion isn't going live.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
From CDR utility gear with Impact Prisms and Int mods(2xR7 1xR5) you can get the shared CD down to just 21 seconds. That's a 6 second gap with only 240 Int and +494 CDR, and that's just from Utility gear... that leaves you with all your offense and defense gear to do whatever you want. Also, that is without Rec or Int Primary and without AoAC.
For my test build I went STR/Con/Int with Wardicator and Defiance as my passive.
Note: AD shared CDs can be reduced significantly more with REC primary or with INT Primary and Growth Offense, and obviously AoAC, additionally Protector spec has Defensive Expertise for even more CDR.
So even without the big hitters to CDR you can STILL easily cut the gap from 15 seconds down to 6 seconds... that's barely over 1/3 of the original gap. And 6 seconds is a very short window... Additionally that's with R7 mods... With R8 or R9 you can expect a smaller gap, easily 4 or 5 seconds.
SO, yes AD rotating is undeniably still possible with very little investment. You do NOT require AoAC, INT or REC primary, Defensive Expertise, and a single stat focus on Int.
As yet another reminder: I am NOT in favor of restricting to 1 AD... I firmly believe that the ONLY solution to this problem is to make the shared CD static so that no matter how much CDR you have it will always be 30 seconds... Honestly I think it should be bumped up to 45 seconds, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter... the facts however are that the CD needs to be static, period.
Making the shared cooldown unaffected by CDR would be an infinitely better decision than what the OP is suggesting, though one I'm still questioning the necessity of. AD cycling isn't really a problem anymore.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You still have the entirety of 4 prices of gear to stat out however you wish, it didn't rely on specs at all so you can go with whatever you wish for specs. It doesn't require AoAC like some seem to think. It doesn't require Rec Primary (which is the best primary for maximizing CDR)
The only thing that I can see that you might be calling a "significant sacrifice" is the fact that my "energy stat" is higher than 50... which I've seen a lot of min-max optimizers make the wild claim that anything over 50 in an energy stat is a waste. But you've said dozens of times that you arn't a min-max optimizer so something as ridiculous as a 50 point cap on an energy stat shouldn't even register as a sacrifice. And if you are a stickler for a 50 point cap on energy stats, the CD without any of the Int mods was 22 seconds... so that just goes to show you how much the CDR from gear and 2xR7 impact prisms in utility alone will get you...
Is it practical for all builds? No, but the point is it's not a significant investment. It's still easily done for a small investment.
You do NOT require any of the following:
Rec Primary
Massive Int Stat investment
AoAC
Defensive Expertise
Simply taking 2 pieces of Speed Utilities and one or 2 impact utility prisms will bring your shared CD to the point that the gap is less than half of the original 15 seconds.
Also, I went and did this test after everyone kept claiming it wasn't possible any more (despite already knowing it was) and then jennymachx's absurd claim that it "requires AoAC and a dedication to CDR". 2 pieces of gear and 1 or 2 mods is hardly a dedication, and AoAC is anything but required.
Well, anyone who has dueled me on Eve(MD), Ms. Might(MD), Electra(MD), Ms. Frigidity (ice barrier), will know that I only have one active defense, i don't have any other characters i duel on, unless you want me to go through the effort of taking a screenshot of each..But once again, why would I argue against AD rotation while actively using them? Simple logic once again proves that there is no incentive for me to use AD rotation.
I don't disagree that it certainly is easier, but it is still too much of a landslide in their favor for little sacrifice; if they're using a decent build, they have to play pretty badly to end up losing the vast majority of the time against someone with one AD, or none.
The facts were not imagined away, they were addressed as a small part of the bigger picture.
You said yourself "something not being a necessity does not mean we should restrict it", I pointed out that if you go by that logic, you may as well let people cheat.
It is important for players to "choose" to either be completely ineffective by taking lesser power combinations, or be overly effective by taking the broken powers? I've already explained why imbalance is indirectly limiting, don't make me go over it a third time.
I haven't counted, so i wouldn't know if i'm in the minority or not, all i'm seeing is a select few repeatedly posting , but overall i see a pretty balanced ratio of participants. Also i meant generally the noisy minority come to defend their broken abilities, i wasn't referring exclusively to this thread... Being in the minority shouldn't be misconstrued, it certainly doesn't mean they're wrong; for example, i'm the minority in this thread, yet the facts are completely on my side which has been proven time an time again by me, and others. The majority in this thread aren't necessarily the majority on the game either, something else you should consider. Overall, you can't get a good view on the majority's view from just this thread, not by a long way, and even if you could, it wouldn't really mean anything.
What you've got is a lot of people who like AD rotation, and who're trying to paint it as fair; they have an incentive to support this because it makes the game significantly easier for those who use AD rotation, and likely themselves because they too very likely use AD rotation. On the other side, the rest have no reason to argue other than to make the game fairer for everyone; they gain nothing in AD rotation being reduced other than a more balanced game; how can you say these people are biased? You can't, There is nothing they gain personally from having AD rotation fixed; where as those who use AD rotation have a lot to personally gain from using it. Which is why it is easy to say the majority saying "AD rotation is fine!"in this thread can't be trusted on their view... Not only that, i've yet to see them present any FACTS to argue that AD rotation is somehow balanced in comparison to other powers, their only argument being "well, we can still die to a cosmic!".. Seriously, what is wrong with you people? Have some integrity.
Who would have thought someone would have so much to say about something so meaningless.