CO already has you following only one linear path. The only time it ever really divides is during the choice between Canada and the Desert. And the villains are taking turns, it's just that they're acting spontaneously and random in their mayhem rather than orchestrating the wide-reaching plots that supervillains in comics are famous for.
Furthermore, CoH didn't force you on the rails to do EVERY story arc at every level range. There were multiple arcs that you could select from, some where self-contained and some were part of an even larger metaplot. You're trying to claim that CO's randomness allows it to be more "diverse" than CoH when in fact it's the exact opposite.
No. CoX forced you to do this and that through insipid storylines. They tried to be serious but failed so painfully hard it was comical. At least CO has the decency to tell you they are joking around. I always wondered if CoH took themselves as seriously as they were attempting to. There was very little opportunity to just run off and do things how you wanted.
There isn't. One moment I'm helping a reporter regain his evidence of the Gadroon expanding beyond the Fallen Sun Forest and the next I'm helping the same reporter gain intel about Argent's operations in the same area. Where does that come from? I thought he was investigating the Gadroon! Now he's investigating Argent too?
It actually makes sense that he would be following both but okay.
The lore is meaningless when it's not connected to my activities. It just appears in little glowies randomly spread throughout the maps. It has very little bearing on what I'm doing when it could if the writers had actually cared.
The lore is connected to some of the things you do. There is a reason why some of it is listed int he first person when you read it.
No, the problem is that there's no logical progression to each of the so-called "arcs." I keep getting these perks for completing "arcs" in the shape of open books but they aren't even arcs. They're just loosely related collections of missions that have no sense of buildup or climax to any of them.
They're just a bunch of stuff that happened.
Well, it is a video game designed like a comic book. It's a limitation of the media. And don't tell me CoX had build-up. It really didn't.
Only in Vibora and the Comic Series and Adventure Packs. The rest is just random flailing around.
And MC with the lead up to Dr. Destroyer and Lemuria which has numerous stories going, and Monster Island and it's lead-up to Vik, and so on. At the beginning it seems random but everything starts to come together at the end. Unfortunately, Vibora Bay and the Adventure series actually throw a wrench in the overriding storyline. Then again this is partly due to being able to do things out of order, like being able to do Aftershock before doing Serpent Lantern while ignoring the main storyline which takes those things into account.
I'm not demanding a grand unified theory of supervillainy. I just want to feel like the events in these "arcs" are leading into the next missions of said "arcs." You claim "plot" is unrealistic, but I counterpoint that the recent government shutdown just didn't spontaneously happen. There were events building up to it.
The government shutdown is one story arc. Then again, all the crime that went on the other day is tied into the shutdown, possibly a dastardly plot by the Republicans to distract the American populace from their even more nefarious plot I'm sure.
We'll have to agree to disagree but I like how the game handled things and feel it is better than CoX in that regards.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
Anyone know if they are planning on going to paid employees at some point? If so, when?
Did they complete the kickstarter to just get the requisite tools yet?
Edit: Not yet, I'm guessing they'll need to meet that goal first before talk of paid employees can even begin. Can't pay people to work with no engine and tools to work with.
Ah, the old, tired cheerleading refrain of "got a complaint? Leave."
Really tired of seeing this.
Oh dear. Here comes the part where I'm accused of cheerleading and told how to post because it upsets you. That said I said IF a person finds some aspect so bothersome to them, it would be better off if they took off. It would be like if I kept posting about the cooldowns on CoX or the blocky design and brought it up ad nauseam. One would wonder why I bother with the game if so many things bother me.
At the end of the day, I have no real issue with the set-up. I do wish for some changes but I don't think it's as bad as some make it sound then again, that's your opinion. If one finds such a thing so intolerable, they can always leave. That's what I did with CoX and was glad I did.
Learn to multi-quote.
And yes, that's what CO needs. More people leaving. If everyone that didn't like something about this game left, we'd be left with three fanbois making excuses for CO's failure and blaming everyone else except the actual problem. No, I'm sorry. I'm a decent human being and I don't just walk away when I see something that needs to be fixed or adjusted. I offer what help I can. One can take that to heart if one chooses.
So now I get to break your argument:
And if there is a definite plot, you'll play that plot over and over with each play through so that point falls apart. And yes, there are different ways to play the game. Though they do put it on you to tailor how you do it. You can ignore one plot arc and focus on another or just do random things.
No. There isn't. There is a series of random missions. There are no choices. In the end, the only 'different way to play the game' is whether or not I shoot a bunch of guys in the face or set them on fire to rescue the kitty. No one has asked for a 'solid definite plot' People want a fluid, changing story based on what you, being the hero, choose to do.
The choices are in how you play the game, as opposed to a storyline that you have to play each time you play the game.
So basically you're saying that doing the same clown-shoes mission 50 times with a different set of powers 'changes things up'. You must work for Cryptic.
Story and gameplay are two completely different things. If you don't understand this, you really don't have a valid opinion on anything related to games at all.
Press L. There's some lore there. Then again, if you play through you'll find it.
I have played through. Experience other games besides CO, and you'll see what lore really is. The 'Lore' tab is the writing on the back of a novel. By your logic, I can go read stories all day without opening one. No, this is 'filler'. This is not a story to play through.
Your excuses for the poor writing are bad. Just, really bad.
Wait, a large number of people like that kind of play? You have actual numbers to back that up? I'd love to see them.
I'm certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt- if you ask people 'would you rather your MMORPG have a plot, or just random asinine things to do?' Most would prefer a decent story, rather than not.
No one is asking anything to be taken from the game- only adjusted, fixed. Adding plot is a plus. But since you're so satisfied with this product that has an overwhelming number of complaints and negative reviews, perhaps I should leave, right? After all, CO needs one less paying customer since it's thriving in the MMO market so well, it had to go crawling to the one company that won't shut games down just so it could survive.
No. CoX forced you to do this and that through insipid storylines. They tried to be serious but failed so painfully hard it was comical. At least CO has the decency to tell you they are joking around. I always wondered if CoH took themselves as seriously as they were attempting to. There was very little opportunity to just run off and do things how you wanted.
You must have played a different CoH than I did, because I wasn't forced to do anything on CoH. I could pick which contacts I wanted, running through the arcs that felt relevant to my character. If I had a guy who hated Rikti, I'd pick a lot of the contacts that had story arcs that had Rikti.
And they were actual stories, not collections of barely related random tasks.
It actually makes sense that he would be following both but okay.
It does, but it comes out of nowhere. Up until that last mission, all of his tasks have to do with Gadroon. There's no hint that he's also investigating Argent until he gives you that mission. No lead-in at all.
The lore is connected to some of the things you do.
No it isn't. It's just a bunch of diaries or letters randomly placed throughout the world and none of it is important to what you're actually doing.
Well, it is a video game designed like a comic book. It's a limitation of the media.
No! I have never read a comic book like this! The comic books I read have stories. What we get in CO's mission "arcs" are not stories. They have neither beginnings, middles, nor ends.
Granted, I started reading comics in the late eighties since I was six, but all of those comics had stories. CO's progression of content doesn't have stories. It's just random stuff.
And don't tell me CoX had build-up. It really didn't.
Actually it did. For example, Crimson's arc that deals with Malta involves an evil plot to start a war between China and the United States to eradicate superhumans so Malta can go forward with the rest of its plans unopposed. After you resolve that, you uncover that the CIA agent that kept appearing everywhere giving you bad leads was really a Malta Director all along.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand what makes a story a story.
And MC with the lead up to Dr. Destroyer and Lemuria which has numerous stories going, and Monster Island and it's lead-up to Vik, and so on. At the beginning it seems random but everything starts to come together at the end.
Actually, they really don't. Doctor Destroyer's lab comes out of left field completely, as previously I was fighting DEMON, and for some reason that's connected to the Kings of Edom and the Basilisk Orb search in Canada and Talisman's random use of Irradiates to nuke Project Greenskin. The connections you're claiming don't make sense and ...
Aggh.
Et al., there's no logical progress or conclusion whatsoever.
Unfortunately, Vibora Bay and the Adventure series actually throw a wrench in the overriding storyline. Then again this is partly due to being able to do things out of order, like being able to do Aftershock before doing Serpent Lantern while ignoring the main storyline which takes those things into account.
And interestingly, those are the only actual stories in the game.
The government shutdown is one story arc. Then again, all the crime that went on the other day is tied into the shutdown, possibly a dastardly plot by the Republicans to distract the American populace from their even more nefarious plot I'm sure.
As I've said, I'm not looking for a Grand Unified Theory of Supervillainy, so your strawman here remains just that, a strawman.
We'll have to agree to disagree but I like how the game handled things and feel it is better than CoX in that regards.
Then it's apparent that you have strange sensibilities for what constitutes as a story.
No. Learn to not ask people to learn things they know how to do but don't feel like doing despite having done them in the past. Thank you for implying I don't know how to multi-quote.
And yes, that's what CO needs. More people leaving. If everyone that didn't like something about this game left, we'd be left with three fanbois making excuses for CO's failure and blaming everyone else except the actual problem. No, I'm sorry. I'm a decent human being and I don't just walk away when I see something that needs to be fixed or adjusted. I offer what help I can. One can take that to heart if one chooses.
Wow. A decent human being? Are you implying I'm not, because I seriously hope you aren't trying to imply that. That would be someone trying to make a discussion of opinions about a video game personal. Or you're actually patting yourself on the back for something unremarkable. Either ways, that's pretty disturbing in itself.
And yes, for any business to really understand how irritated someone is, that person should hold on to their money. You can comment on it and even send a direct message but after a while it becomes apparent that they aren't willing to listen and one should just leave them be. That and demanding "better writing" is hard because it's such a subjective thing. At the same time, one has to be cognizant of their complaints and wonder if that is truly what is best for the game overall or just best for me. And that's something the companies consider as well. Then again, they are also lazy and prone to mess-ups so there is that as well. In the end, it depends on how much faith you have in the company listening to and carrying out your demands. If I was in your position, I would have left because I personally don't have much faith in Cryptic to change things to such a degree, which is why I commented as I did.
So now I get to break your argument:
Oh boy. Are you going to show me how to multi-quote too? How to use the multi-quote button that anyone can see?
And if there is a definite plot, you'll play that plot over and over with each play through so that point falls apart. And yes, there are different ways to play the game. Though they do put it on you to tailor how you do it. You can ignore one plot arc and focus on another or just do random things.
No. There isn't. There is a series of random missions. There are no choices. In the end, the only 'different way to play the game' is whether or not I shoot a bunch of guys in the face or set them on fire to rescue the kitty. No one has asked for a 'solid definite plot' People want a fluid, changing story based on what you, being the hero, choose to do.
No, you can play through the game how you want to, skipping whole storylines and so forth. Yeah, the game is silly in not acknowledging your decisions but at the same time I can't blame them. It would be hard to indicate that you let Dr. Destroyer win or joined forces with him when your guildmates did the opposite and want to play in Vibora Bay. Some things are just harder to implement. I do wish for a better system but I can't be bothered to comment on it because it's not a deal-breaker to me and I often don't have time to sit and post. This here is a rarity for me.
The choices are in how you play the game, as opposed to a storyline that you have to play each time you play the game.
So basically you're saying that doing the same clown-shoes mission 50 times with a different set of powers 'changes things up'. You must work for Cryptic.
No I don't work for Cryptic. I know someone who works for NCSoft though. Does that count? And no, that's not what I'm saying at all. If anything I'm implying doing the same thing over and over is a bad thing, something I encountered in CoH. Slight variations here and there wasn't enough either.
Press L. There's some lore there. Then again, if you play through you'll find it.
I have played through. Experience other games besides CO, and you'll see what lore really is. The 'Lore' tab is the writing on the back of a novel. By your logic, I can go read stories all day without opening one. No, this is 'filler'. This is not a story to play through.
I've played other games actually, which is why I'm approaching this one as laid-back as I am and not acting like it is something important. The game has decent lore and the storylines are pretty good. Do they have bad ones? Of course. Do they have good ones? Yes.
Your excuses for the poor writing are bad. Just, really bad.
Opinions backed by more opinions. Yeah I'm doing it too but at least I'm not assuing people don't know how to multi-quote. :biggrin:
Wait, a large number of people like that kind of play? You have actual numbers to back that up? I'd love to see them.
I'm certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt- if you ask people 'would you rather your MMORPG have a plot, or just random asinine things to do?' Most would prefer a decent story, rather than not.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
No one is asking anything to be taken from the game- only adjusted, fixed. Adding plot is a plus. But since you're so satisfied with this product that has an overwhelming number of complaints and negative reviews, perhaps I should leave, right? After all, CO needs one less paying customer since it's thriving in the MMO market so well, it had to go crawling to the one company that won't shut games down just so it could survive.
I would like to change some things too but I don't think they will change it properly, as their track record shows. That said, I am satisfied for the time being but if something does bother me, I'll comment and if nothing gets done, leave. I've left before, only coming back when they fixed their stuff. Personally, I just can't be bothered to be feel irritated as much.
No multi-quoting for you.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
Actually, they really don't. Doctor Destroyer's lab comes out of left field completely, as previously I was fighting DEMON, and for some reason that's connected to the Kings of Edom and the Basilisk Orb search in Canada and Talisman's random use of Irradiates to nuke Project Greenskin. The connections you're claiming don't make sense and ...
Aggh.
Et al., there's no logical progress or conclusion whatsoever.
Oh, yeah, that reminds me: All of these events we've been subjected to are supposed to tie together in the final event of the year. And if anybody has ANY idea how the &$%# that's going to happen, I'd love to hear your theories. The only one that even had a lingering question was Fatal Err0r. I wonder if we'll find out who smuggled a smartphone into Cybermind's cell in Stronghold.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
You must have played a different CoH than I did, because I wasn't forced to do anything on CoH. I could pick which contacts I wanted, running through the arcs that felt relevant to my character. If I had a guy who hated Rikti, I'd pick a lot of the contacts that had story arcs that had Rikti.
And they were actual stories, not collections of barely related random tasks.
You must have played a different one indeed. Forced into this and that, and bad stories. Oh my word, that was some bad writing. CO has it's fair share of bad writing but CoH was bad, when it existed. It had good writing but it had some bad writing as well. Overall I didn't like the set-up as well.
It does, but it comes out of nowhere. Up until that last mission, all of his tasks have to do with Gadroon. There's no hint that he's also investigating Argent until he gives you that mission. No lead-in at all.
I didn't think there need to be one. With both Argent and the Gadroon obviously being there and that obviously being unusual, I'd be worried if he did not comment on them.
No it isn't. It's just a bunch of diaries or letters randomly placed throughout the world and none of it is important to what you're actually doing.
Try skipping the Gadroon missions then try to read the Gadroon lore/computers. Whole lotta fun to be had.
No! I have never read a comic book like this! The comic books I read have stories. What we get in CO's mission "arcs" are not stories. They have neither beginnings, middles, nor ends.
The whole game as a story with random things inbetween. CO does spend a bit of time on the random things inbetween but that's because in such a large world, there should be a lot of things inbetween. I guess they could do a better job forcing you along some path, but I'm not sure how many people would like it. I can only speak for myself on that.
Granted, I started reading comics in the late eighties since I was six, but all of those comics had stories. CO's progression of content doesn't have stories. It's just random stuff.
Again, I think it's one part the medium and another part CO trying to open the world up. I personally wished that the role and AT you chose would affect the story more along with some choices but I can't help but feel that asking for that would result in some issues. I've asked for that but the way Cryptic handles things makes me nervous sometimes.
Actually it did. For example, Crimson's arc that deals with Malta involves an evil plot to start a war between China and the United States to eradicate superhumans so Malta can go forward with the rest of its plans unopposed. After you resolve that, you uncover that the CIA agent that kept appearing everywhere giving you bad leads was really a Malta Director all along.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand what makes a story a story.
Oye that's weak.
Actually, they really don't. Doctor Destroyer's lab comes out of left field completely, as previously I was fighting DEMON, and for some reason that's connected to the Kings of Edom and the Basilisk Orb search in Canada and Talisman's random use of Irradiates to nuke Project Greenskin. The connections you're claiming don't make sense and ...
Aggh.
Et al., there's no logical progress or conclusion whatsoever.
No, a small series of quests lead-up to Dr. Destroyer's lab. DEMON is a separate thing, yes, but it doesn't lead directly beyond you having to talk to Dr. Silverback at some point.
And interestingly, those are the only actual stories in the game.
As I've said, I'm not looking for a Grand Unified Theory of Supervillainy, so your strawman here remains just that, a strawman.
I'm not the one who introduced the government shutdown in some poor attempt at an analogy. I'm sorry for calling you out on it. I'll remember not to do that in the future.
Then it's apparent that you have strange sensibilities for what constitutes as a story.
My sensibilities are just fine. Just because someone thinks differently than you does not make the strange, especially when their opinion is valid. Then again, this seems like a hard concept to grasp on these boards sometimes.
Opinions vs. opinions based on opinions. Yet I'm strange. Maybe I'm a bad person for disliking CoH (how is that possible???).
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
No. Learn to not ask people to learn things they know how to do but don't feel like doing despite having done them in the past. Thank you for implying I don't know how to multi-quote
Right. I'm sorry, I didn't think you were important enough for me to research. So, you're not unaware how to do something, just simply lazy. Got it.
Wow. A decent human being? Are you implying I'm not, because I seriously hope you aren't trying to imply that. That would be someone trying to make a discussion of opinions about a video game personal. Or you're actually patting yourself on the back for something unremarkable. Either ways, that's pretty disturbing in itself.
As I said before 'one can take this how one wishes'. Since we're using that manner of speaking. You implied that if people don't like the current game, they should leave. Keep in mind you're not the only rational person. If it were a 'dealbreaker', I would have left because I don't breathe with my mouth open and I can form coherent thoughts. And to make a remark- saying 'if you don't like it, leave' does amount to cheerleading. There are other things in CO I praise and stick around for. Just not many, but enough.
At the same time, one has to be cognizant of their complaints and wonder if that is truly what is best for the game overall or just best for me.
Saying 'I like it the way it is, if you don't you can leave' is doing exactly this thing here.
Oh boy. Are you going to show me how to multi-quote too? How to use the multi-quote button that anyone can see?
If you're too lazy to click a button, then it's obvious why story isn't as important to you as graphics and fast gameplay. Guys like you keep Call of Duty in business.
No, you can play through the game how you want to, skipping whole storylines and so forth. Yeah, the game is silly in not acknowledging your decisions but at the same time I can't blame them. It would be hard to indicate that you let Dr. Destroyer win or joined forces with him when your guildmates did the opposite and want to play in Vibora Bay. Some things are just harder to implement. I do wish for a better system but I can't be bothered to comment on it because it's not a deal-breaker to me and I often don't have time to sit and post. This here is a rarity for me.
That's not 'playing a story differently', that's skipping content. Your logic is that if you don't see two episodes of Game of Thrones the second time you watch it- the story changes.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Kind of like your opinion on how using different powers and skipping missions makes the game 'different' and changes the story? Yeah.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Actually, since you want to know- burden of proof is on you. I'm just saying... very few people outside the CAWLADOODIE gamers find story to be irrelevant. It is one of the more highly praised aspects of the other games I mentioned, where Champions Online gets praise for... Character Customization and that's about it.
I'm guessing they do have a plan for paying themselves, but who knows what that could be.
I believe this is what you are looking for below:
But what about the flipside, how do we expect to support this game once it ships?
This game has to pay for itself. As an employee owned and community driven effort, we had a meeting and came to some conclusions. There were a few people that felt the game should be free for all, but the numbers just do not work for it. Once the game ships, it will need people working full time to support it, and it will cost us in hardware, software, and bandwidth. It is unrealistic for any game company being developed and promoted in this way to deliver the option of a free game for everyone, forever. It had to be put aside.
We do not, at this time, have any plans or ambition of putting this game in physical stores. The costs for doing so puts that out of reach of independent game developers. However, a collector's edition is possible down the line.
To support the game, we will be charging for what we call 'the box.' It may be a purchase via an online service such as Steam or through our website, but there will be a fee for the game itself. This fee, however, will effectively cover the first three months of subscription. There's some simple reasons for why. First, it means that people who come into the game to grief or farm gold, are essentially paying us to ban them. And if they want to come back again and again, they're limited by the costs they incur. Secondly, and more pragmatically, it means the people playing the game will, at least in theory, be able to use our cash shop.
Yes, we are going to have a cash shop, but we're going to hold very tightly to certain rules. 1: A good value for money. 2: No Pay To Win. 3: Something for Everyone. We're going to want you to use it, but we're going to want you to want to use it, too.
As for Subscriptions, yes, the plan is to offer them, but not require them. Once you have purchased the game, you can play the game. You will get a few months of the VIP Subscription with your game purchase off the bat, and will have the option of continuing to subscribe, or to play as a free player and purchase from the cash shop a la carte. The final details of the VIP Subscription are not hammered down, but some areas are settled: At no time will you lose access to something you had access to and VIP Subscribers will get a stipend for the cash shop of greater value than the cost of the subscription.
One of the ideas we have passed around is that Subscribers get assured access to issue betas. They might get earlier access to new powersets as well. We're going to find the right thing to do, and we're going to make sure it's fair for everyone.
At all points in the budgeting and the post-launch support, the goal is to focus on results, what will give us the most bang for the buck. Autodesk software is expensive, but offers plug-ins, extensions and tools which greatly improve the speed at which we can work. By selling the initial install of the game for the price of a few months subscription we can keep the servers running once we launch without forcing a monthly subscription on to our players.
Because in the end, that is who we are making this for, you, the player.
Well, from what I've heard, the new City of Titans has a few things working against it.
The Lore is a bit shoddy. From what I was told, the lore-writers seemed to be more fantasy-oriented fans than actual comic book superhero fans. I'd rather not play Dungeons & Dragons with tights, if that's the case. There's enough swords and sorcery out there on the MMO market. Most of the people who have this shining Silver Age ideal for a superhero game are not comic readers, they just find Wikipedia articles. I'd like someone who's read a lot of comics- including indie titles- to work on this.
It's also really trying too hard to be another City of Heroes. I get it, you loved the game... don't remake it. Make something new. Spiritual Successors don't have to be clones.
The only other problem I am having is I'm not sure which of these games has Golden Girl involved, but she's a wretched troll and I'd honestly rather have Carrot Top and Andy **** calling the shots.
No. Learn to not ask people to learn things they know how to do but don't feel like doing despite having done them in the past. Thank you for implying I don't know how to multi-quote
Right. I'm sorry, I didn't think you were important enough for me to research. So, you're not unaware how to do something, just simply lazy. Got it.
Lazy? Name-calling. Great. Apparently a person simply preferring one form of posting over another is a crime or some sort of moral failing. Oh dear. And I multi-quoted earlier in this thread near one of your posts actually. My point is, don't assume something asinine and unimportant just to get your kicks off bullying people online because they have a different opinion than you.
Wow. A decent human being? Are you implying I'm not, because I seriously hope you aren't trying to imply that. That would be someone trying to make a discussion of opinions about a video game personal. Or you're actually patting yourself on the back for something unremarkable. Either ways, that's pretty disturbing in itself.
As I said before 'one can take this how one wishes'. Since we're using that manner of speaking. You implied that if people don't like the current game, they should leave. Keep in mind you're not the only rational person. If it were a 'dealbreaker', I would have left because I don't breathe with my mouth open and I can form coherent thoughts. And to make a remark- saying 'if you don't like it, leave' does amount to cheerleading. There are other things in CO I praise and stick around for. Just not many, but enough.
It doesn't amount to cheerleading. Telling someone to do what I did for another game is not cheerleading. Holy crap, passing on advice based on personal experience amounts to cheerleading now. My bloody word.
In any case, I honestly don't know what your experience with games or your situation is entirely. I didn't think you were important enough for me to research and it certainly wasn't that obvious in this thread.
At the same time, one has to be cognizant of their complaints and wonder if that is truly what is best for the game overall or just best for me.
Saying 'I like it the way it is, if you don't you can leave' is doing exactly this thing here.
Oh boy. Are you going to show me how to multi-quote too? How to use the multi-quote button that anyone can see?
If you're too lazy to click a button, then it's obvious why story isn't as important to you as graphics and fast gameplay. Guys like you keep Call of Duty in business.
Those aren't the same thing. One is advice based on my experience with other games in partially with this one, the other is me responding to a stupid assumption. And thanks for implying Call of Duty fans are stupid. You must really like insulting people.
No, you can play through the game how you want to, skipping whole storylines and so forth. Yeah, the game is silly in not acknowledging your decisions but at the same time I can't blame them. It would be hard to indicate that you let Dr. Destroyer win or joined forces with him when your guildmates did the opposite and want to play in Vibora Bay. Some things are just harder to implement. I do wish for a better system but I can't be bothered to comment on it because it's not a deal-breaker to me and I often don't have time to sit and post. This here is a rarity for me.
That's not 'playing a story differently', that's skipping content. Your logic is that if you don't see two episodes of Game of Thrones the second time you watch it- the story changes.
The hell? No that's not my logic. That example doesn't even correlate.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Kind of like your opinion on how using different powers and skipping missions makes the game 'different' and changes the story? Yeah.
Concerning my post, as opposed to your interpretation, I never stated that was a fact. I know it is an opinion. This whole argument is opinions vs. opinions based on opinions on both sides. It's one reason why I'm not insulting people unnecessarily.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Actually, since you want to know- burden of proof is on you. I'm just saying... very few people outside the CAWLADOODIE gamers find story to be irrelevant. It is one of the more highly praised aspects of the other games I mentioned, where Champions Online gets praise for... Character Customization and that's about it.
You are the one making a claim. So you have to back it up with proof. I've already said my opinions about the story and other aspects are indeed opinions. You're the one claiming a certain number of people want this or that. Well prove it then. And now since you're drawing in COD into your assessment, you might as well prove that too. The burden of proof is on you.
Insults! Yes! I love those! [/sarcasm]. We can agree to disagree on most things but I'm not a big fan of these insults.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
Well, from what I've heard, the new City of Titans has a few things working against it.
The Lore is a bit shoddy. From what I was told, the lore-writers seemed to be more fantasy-oriented fans than actual comic book superhero fans. I'd rather not play Dungeons & Dragons with tights, if that's the case. There's enough swords and sorcery out there on the MMO market. Most of the people who have this shining Silver Age ideal for a superhero game are not comic readers, they just find Wikipedia articles. I'd like someone who's read a lot of comics- including indie titles- to work on this.
It's also really trying too hard to be another City of Heroes. I get it, you loved the game... don't remake it. Make something new. Spiritual Successors don't have to be clones.
The only other problem I am having is I'm not sure which of these games has Golden Girl involved, but she's a wretched troll and I'd honestly rather have Carrot Top and Andy **** calling the shots.
I think you should go read the entire kickstarter page. You seem to have gotten some erroneous ideas. Golden Girl was involved with a different project and they are not going to be a clone by any means, far from it, they just want to achieve the same feel and succeed in the areas COX did and beyond.
Seriously, go read it, all of it.
As well I am a fan of many things, don't you think they can too? One nerd interest does not mean you can't have any others.
Lazy? Name-calling. Great. Apparently a person simply preferring one form of posting over another is a crime or some sort of moral failing. Oh dear. And I multi-quoted earlier in this thread near one of your posts actually. My point is, don't assume something asinine and unimportant just to get your kicks off bullying people online because they have a different opinion than you.
If being called 'lazy' gets you this butthurt and constitutes bullying, you're kind of being a dramatic crybaby about it. I'm lazy, too. Deal with it.
It doesn't amount to cheerleading. Telling someone to do what I did for another game is not cheerleading. Holy crap, passing on advice based on personal experience amounts to cheerleading now. My bloody word.
You're right. It's not cheerleading. I was being too nice about it. You know that 'bullying' thing you were mewling about? I'd say 'if You don't like you, you'd think you'd leave' constitutes bullying people out of the game that want to see it improved.
In any case, I honestly don't know what your experience with games or your situation is entirely. I didn't think you were important enough for me to research and it certainly wasn't that obvious in this thread.
Fair enough. Usually when people research me in some form or another they aren't impressed anyway.
Those aren't the same thing. One is advice based on my experience with other games in partially with this one, the other is me responding to a stupid assumption. And thanks for implying Call of Duty fans are stupid. You must really like insulting people.
I'll say this- buying the exact same game over and over again so you can hear some 13-year-old screech in your ear about what he did to your mother DEFINES stupidity for me. It's a fact. Most of these guys don't care about story, they just want some instant mindless gratification. Mindless gratification is fine, I enjoy it. But I won't ever say something can't be better with a good story.
The hell? No that's not my logic. That example doesn't even correlate
It did. Skipping content and gameplay mechanics are NOT story. They are NOT the same. If you think they are, you seriously might need to step away from this debate.
You are the one making a claim. So you have to back it up with proof. I've already said my opinions about the story and other aspects are indeed opinions. You're the one claiming a certain number of people want this or that. Well prove it then. And now since you're drawing in COD into your assessment, you might as well prove that too. The burden of proof is on you.
Of course there is no way to 'prove' that the story is 'better'. I can, however, simply point out that every review of CO points out its story as a weaker point while that same critique is not made as strongly in others. It's a matter of opinion, of course. It's just a very widespread and common opinion that 'a decent story' is better than 'not a story'. If it requires actual hard data to prove this to you, I really think you might need to think about it.
Here's my proof: More people that play this game right now would rather the stories be better written, than not at all. Don't believe me? Ask.
BTW thanks to everyone in the thread that discussed things respectfully and with an open mind. Regardless of disagreements that might have been had you guys set a good example for the CO community while our two duelists here try to set bad ones lol.
I think you should go read the entire kickstarter page. You seem to have gotten some erroneous ideas. Golden Girl was involved with a different project and they are not going to be a clone by any means, far from it, they just want to achieve the same feel and succeed in the areas COX did and beyond.
Oh yeah, she was on the other one- Heroes and Villains. The one that isn't moving at all. Right, now I remember.
As well I am a fan of many things, don't you think they can too? One nerd interest does not mean you can't have any others.
Well, that's true- but I don't think Transformers vs. Conan the Barbarian would be a good idea...
What I'm saying is I don't want a Comic Book superhero universe that perpetuates MAGIC WINZ ALL! as the final solution for every plot. Fantasy is okay, I guess- but I don't want another fantasy MMO for a long, long time... and I'd rather not see it bleed over into other MMO's. I'm getting a little... eh.. about Wildstar because it's starting to look a bit like WoW in Space.
BTW thanks to everyone in the thread that discussed things respectfully and with an open mind. Regardless of disagreements that might have been had you guys set a good example for the CO community while our two duelists here try to set bad ones lol.
A debate is a debate. If this is a 'bad example' then you might need to toughen up and not have the internet.
Seriously, I don't know this guy from Adam but I don't hate the guy. He's fine.
But that's okay, if I'm a 'bad example' for the community at least it's SOMETHING.
Well, that's true- but I don't think Transformers vs. Conan the Barbarian would be a good idea...
What I'm saying is I don't want a Comic Book superhero universe that perpetuates MAGIC WINZ ALL! as the final solution for every plot. Fantasy is okay, I guess- but I don't want another fantasy MMO for a long, long time... and I'd rather not see it bleed over into other MMO's. I'm getting a little... eh.. about Wildstar because it's starting to look a bit like WoW in Space.
A proclivity for fantasy does not mean magic will be prevalent in a superhero game. In your example you have two totally different things thrown together for no reason, but what you are actually saying is nothing near that. You are saying that, for example, me making a Conan movie would make me do some of the things in transformers in a Conan-eque way. Or that me playing a FPS would make me play an MMORPG in a FPS way.
I'm sure they do have tiny little interelations, but nothing on the magnitude that you are postulating.
Though getting down to brass tacks here: Magic and Superpowers are the same thing in every way. Every spell can be explained by a super power and vice versa. Superpowers can come from spells and spells can be considered superpowers as well. These things are so similar to each other I'm not even sure why it matters anyways honestly.
Also, the team is inspired by COX, which was a game where the dedication and sacrifices of heroes wins all. Magic was just one of the many things they used along the way and Magic is what actually killed Statesmen. Quite a blow in the opposite direction from wins all. Most likely they used magic for Statesmen because he was very superman-esque so the thought of normal attacks killing him would seem a bit suspect.
A debate is a debate. If this is a 'bad example' then you might need to toughen up and not have the internet.
Seriously, I don't know this guy from Adam but I don't hate the guy. He's fine.
But that's okay, if I'm a 'bad example' for the community at least it's SOMETHING.
Can I get that as my user title?
The problem is not that you two are discussing something, it's that you two are repeating yourselves continuously at this point. There is no productive discussion going on atm because it started simply going in circles and then getting aggressive/insulting.
Whether or not you claim to be the one who is the bad guy or aggressive/insulting is irrelevant because you are propagating it as well, either way you would be equally guilty of it. I personally agree with the pro-story viewpoint, but it's been covered, well, by all of us. Unless I can come up with an entirely new point I just let my arguments stand and be considered and judged by their own merits. I don't need to pound it into someone's head.
That's why at this point I'm pretty much just providing info, I covered the vast majority of my stance on the two games. As an aside, I didn't just do that for the sake of a COH/CO debate. I did it as well because we have COT people watching and I believe it's good for them to be exposed to all the information in this thread from both sides of the debate.
Well, if you look at the way you've spoken to people in this very thread, "one would think" you would know the myriad of ways one can be insulted.
I haven't insulted anyone. Show me where I insulted someone.
If being called 'lazy' gets you this butthurt and constitutes bullying, you're kind of being a dramatic crybaby about it. I'm lazy, too. Deal with it.
I'm not butthurt, just calling you out on poor behavior. You're dragging down the discussion with unnecessary name-calling.
You're right. It's not cheerleading. I was being too nice about it. You know that 'bullying' thing you were mewling about? I'd say 'if You don't like you, you'd think you'd leave' constitutes bullying people out of the game that want to see it improved.
That's not bullying. I said I was giving advice based on my own experience. I stated that I was in the same situation in another game and did that. And alluded to doing that in this game, only coing back when that thing was fixed. So no, it's not bullying at all.
I'll say this- buying the exact same game over and over again so you can hear some 13-year-old screech in your ear about what he did to your mother DEFINES stupidity for me. It's a fact. Most of these guys don't care about story, they just want some instant mindless gratification. Mindless gratification is fine, I enjoy it. But I won't ever say something can't be better with a good story.
It's not a fact. Not everyone is like that. And if you think that it's the majority, you're than welcome to think that or prove your case with some numbers. I don't think everyone is like that but I don't care about that game or the point enough to draw up numbers.
It did. Skipping content and gameplay mechanics are NOT story. They are NOT the same.
It didn't. And I never stated they were. CoH had the same issues. How is that any better?
If you think they are, you seriously might need to step away from this debate.
According to your logic, I am bullying someone by telling them to leave the game. Now you're doing this, which amounts to the same thing. Oh my.
Of course there is no way to 'prove' that the story is 'better'. I can, however, simply point out that every review of CO points out its story as a weaker point while that same critique is not made as strongly in others. It's a matter of opinion, of course. It's just a very widespread and common opinion that 'a decent story' is better than 'not a story'. If it requires actual hard data to prove this to you, I really think you might need to think about it.
You are making a claim that involves a number of people holding an opinion. Prove that. If it is widespread and common, you should not have a hard time proving this. Stop making claims and then trying to wriggle out of them.
Here's my proof: More people that play this game right now would rather the stories be better written, than not at all. Don't believe me? Ask.
That's not proof of what you said before, just you redefining the argument. My word man. Stop passing off claims as fact and then redefining the question to wriggle out of it.
BTW thanks to everyone in the thread that discussed things respectfully and with an open mind. Regardless of disagreements that might have been had you guys set a good example for the CO community while our two duelists here try to set bad ones lol.
I will agree it is taking things away from the centre of this thread. At the same time, threads to go this way so I have no real excuse other than I'm used to this style of posting (not so much the insults but the tangents). You could always get a mod to do something about it. Part of me feels like we are ruining the thread and part of me feels like it is par for the course and contributes somehow. Just tell a mod and see what he says. I'm honestly down with whatever.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
That's why at this point I'm pretty much just providing info, I covered the vast majority of my stance on the two games. As an aside, I didn't just do that for the sake of a COH/CO debate. I did it as well because we have COT people watching and I believe it's good for them to be exposed to all the information in this thread from both sides of the debate.
You'd honestly be better served just listing exactly what you want as opposed to pitting two games against each other if this is the case. No game is perfect and misunderstandings happen. You're better off explaining in detail what you want from a game and what you don't want. You did some of that but to an impartial person, the takeaway from your posts is that you want a CoH clone when I'm sure you want something better. Better than CO, better than CoH. Better than DCUO. I would want something with DCUO's style of combat but with CO's customization with CoH's scope.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
You'd honestly be better served just listing exactly what you want as opposed to pitting two games against each other if this is the case. No game is perfect and misunderstandings happen. You're better off explaining in detail what you want from a game and what you don't want. You did some of that but to an impartial person, the takeaway from your posts is that you want a CoH clone when I'm sure you want something better. Better than CO, better than CoH. Better than DCUO. I would want something with DCUO's style of combat but with CO's customization with CoH's scope.
DCU had something going for it that I kinda thought fell short in execution but good in concept. Attacks and Powers. I always thought it made more sense to have a 'fighting skill' separate from your powers so that you could maybe have that Marksman Telepath or Swordsman that turns into flames, etc.
I will agree it is taking things away from the centre of this thread. At the same time, threads to go this way so I have no real excuse other than I'm used to this style of posting (not so much the insults but the tangents). You could always get a mod to do something about it. Part of me feels like we are ruining the thread and part of me feels like it is par for the course and contributes somehow. Just tell a mod and see what he says. I'm honestly down with whatever.
Listen. This is how threads work on the forums. In a few minutes, someone is going to come in here and post pictures of cats or pugs or transvestites and it'll all be a moot point anyway.
If this is it, then this means they don't plan on paying anyone until the game has launched. If that's the case, I predict a lot of people dropping off the project between now and launch.
Right now many of the volunteers are just spending their free time on it, I would imagine. You think these people are going to work for a couple years for free, on their free time, and stick with it? That's a lot of optimism.
Also keep in mind that a lot of players are "buying the box" with the Kickstarter, and that money goes to licensing fees.
You'd honestly be better served just listing exactly what you want as opposed to pitting two games against each other if this is the case. No game is perfect and misunderstandings happen. You're better off explaining in detail what you want from a game and what you don't want. You did some of that but to an impartial person, the takeaway from your posts is that you want a CoH clone when I'm sure you want something better. Better than CO, better than CoH. Better than DCUO. I would want something with DCUO's style of combat but with CO's customization with CoH's scope.
I didn't have to pit the games against each other lol. That just happened because I consider COX to have objectively been the better game as it did better in more areas than CO did since CO is highly specialized in only a few areas where it excels.
But the advantage of group discussion is that you get a wide range of opinions and ideas, which is much more useful than the opinion of just one person.
If this is it, then this means they don't plan on paying anyone until the game has launched. If that's the case, I predict a lot of people dropping off the project between now and launch.
Right now many of the volunteers are just spending their free time on it, I would imagine. You think these people are going to work for a couple years for free, on their free time, and stick with it? That's a lot of optimism.
Also keep in mind that a lot of players are "buying the box" with the Kickstarter, and that money goes to licensing fees.
I woudn't underestimate the COX community. In 20+ years of gaming and 15+ years of MMORPG's I've never seen anything like em. They are resilient, passionate, talented, and normally very polite and helpful. Residents of any other game would have already moved on long ago, but they scratch and claw and fight for every inch and scrap of ground that they can get their hands on to build their dreams with their own hands.
I can't promise that they will make a commercial success, and I'm sure some amount of personnel cycling will occur (that actually happens frequently in PAID MMORPGs, not much difference), but I have faith that they will make a game they believe in and it will ship.
Their indomitably heroic spirit infected me a bit, so I am doing my best to promote COT as well. I've directly contacted in excess of 60 individuals to date informing them of the Kickstarter and will likely contact more. Around 20 have claimed to pledge. This of course doesn't include them telling friends or me posting in more public ways.
I would have never seen myself campaigning a bit for them, but I feel they deserve at least a shot. I couldn't just stand by and not help. Also, IF they managed to wrest success from the fickle hands of the industry and the unpredictable hands of the masses of consumers it would be a grave blow to the commercialized MMORPG industry and a rallying cry for independent development everywhere.
Also, keep in mind people work on things for free ALL THE TIME. There are tons of open source programs, games, operating systems, etc out there. Mods for games as well. You underestimate creative gamers as a whole and the COX folks are an especially committed subsect of those. The world doesn't work soley off of capitalism and greed my friend, just alot of it . Some people want to create things and make people happy just because.
They are willing to fight for what they believe in, I am as well. Are you?
They are willing to fight for what they believe in, I am as well. Are you?
While I respect how poetically you put things, life just doesn't work that way. And if they have no funding for two years, things aren't going to go well. At least, that's how I predict it.
And, you're asking me if I want to fight for them? Uhh, no. I'm not part of their project, and they're a competitor to my favorite MMO. If they do good, that's cool, I will check the game out. But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in. Compare that to Champions that I've been playing for four years now, even longer than I lasted in WoW.
I don't wish them ill, but I certainly am not part of their "fight."
If it were me, and I'm working an extra job, effectively, that pays 0 money, my wife and kids would be... less than thrilled.
'But, honey, this is for the honor of the great battle to resurrect a game about being a superhero!'
"What, like Spiderman?"
'Well, yes. Except not Spiderman.'
"Superman?"
'Nobody you've heard of.'
"So... is this going to be worth a lot of money at some point?"
'This is about honor!'
"Your kids need clothes."
People with actually useful skills are very likely to be people who need to survive on those skills, and volunteering ... It's MEAN to expect people to do this.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
If this is it, then this means they don't plan on paying anyone until the game has launched. If that's the case, I predict a lot of people dropping off the project between now and launch.
Right now many of the volunteers are just spending their free time on it, I would imagine. You think these people are going to work for a couple years for free, on their free time, and stick with it? That's a lot of optimism.
Also keep in mind that a lot of players are "buying the box" with the Kickstarter, and that money goes to licensing fees.
Is that any different than any studio that might pop up? Or did all of these game studios and other projects go "No money...cant be done!"
Sometimes, you have to take the risk. They have the ability to take the risk. Will it happen? Who knows. But I wouldn't think "not getting paid" is going to be what ruins it for anyone.
Especially if afterwards they might beable to be compensated (I'm assuming some idea of a profit is hoping to happen to pay people, while at the same time being able to keep the game going).
If it were me, and I'm working an extra job, effectively, that pays 0 money, my wife and kids would be... less than thrilled.
'But, honey, this is for the honor of the great battle to resurrect a game about being a superhero!'
"What, like Spiderman?"
'Well, yes. Except not Spiderman.'
"Superman?"
'Nobody you've heard of.'
"So... is this going to be worth a lot of money at some point?"
'This is about honor!'
"Your kids need clothes."
People with actually useful skills are very likely to be people who need to survive on those skills, and volunteering ... It's MEAN to expect people to do this.
While I respect how poetically you put things, life just doesn't work that way. And if they have no funding for two years, things aren't going to go well. At least, that's how I predict it.
And, you're asking me if I want to fight for them? Uhh, no. I'm not part of their project, and they're a competitor to my favorite MMO. If they do good, that's cool, I will check the game out. But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in. Compare that to Champions that I've been playing for four years now, even longer than I lasted in WoW.
I don't wish them ill, but I certainly am not part of their "fight."
As thankless as it is, that is how the game and software industry got built. Off the backs of people working far too many hours and far too hard for little to nothing. But they did it anyways because they wanted to.
Believe it or not alot of people create alot of things for free, and it take a very long amount of time and if you have a wife/family it takes alot of understanding too. But is that any different than a teaching career instead of a engineering career? Or being a musician in your time off from work? Or going to the bar and having a few drinks after work each day?
People do alot of things in addition to their job. They do it for fun, they do it for self improvement, they do it to create things. Even when they run themselves ragged sometimes, because to THEM it's worth it.
Not all of life is greedy selfish capitalism. Makes you think a bit about your own life it does, and how you spend your time. For instance with regular viewing and responses how many people here are spending a good deal of time playing games and viewing forums? Couldn't that time be spent creating music, film, photography, art, video games? . It's not so different, not to someone who cares about what they are doing.
I hope one day your lives are full of that sort of satisfaction, even if it does cost you. Because it's worth it and you end up with things to show for it instead of a few levels . Of course...I still like mah video games hahaha. But I've worked 70 hours a week before and that was on a job I HATED. Stuff I like would be far easier .
Oh, one last thing boys. They already said if anything ever happens and the game goes under, it's ours. It won't be shut down but instead delivered to us in working order. Now, it would be single player with just the client, but I know quite a few old MMORPG's that have been run on private servers, including World of War Craft.
So if everything blows up but they give us a solid foundation, the community can still have something to go to. It's almost like they are gamers too .
I really need to replay Aftershock. I never played it as much as the other packs so my memory of it is hazy at best...and I never did Fatal Error or Whiteout yet.
Oh it's really cool. The beginning is a little (trying to omit spoilers) slow and pedestrian, but the story ramps up quickly. The overall arc of the story is pretty....ok not gonna do well on spoilers after all....it's grim.
Also, it's a rescue mission. I mean jesus just the concept of "oops we forgot you in hell"...from my perspective it just chucks the whole good guy vs bad guy thing right out the door. Cmon, people are trapped in a hellish dimension after mounting a rescue mission of sorts in Demonflame. Who is gonna put up with that? Even dark side anti hero villian types have limits, I can't imagine anyone knowingly leaving people in a dimension like Qlipthoth simply to rot.
One of the few missions with gravity, I like the lore but when I run it I sometimes want the contacts to be less wordy and just point out where the hell everything went south so the extraction process is quicker and easier. Figure one should assign blame later when everyone's out if you need to feel heroic or whatever.
We have this mission, and we have one where a goofus hits you with a bubble gum gun. I'm not defending CO's writing, mostly it's just lazy pop references when not just flat out lazy. But it does have it's moments (vb apoc resistance aftershock demonflame etc).
Sorry Kenpo not sure why I quoted you, you know the game, I went into autopilot sell mode there.
You must have played a different one indeed. Forced into this and that, and bad stories.
You keep saying you were forced to play through allegedly bad story arcs, which I don't recall at all. I don't think there was anyone holding a gun to my head and saying, "You must play through Diviner Maros' arc today."
Last I checked, you could pick and choose which contacts you wanted to concentrate on. How were you "forced?"
Oh my word, that was some bad writing.
What was? Be specific. This is an incomplete thought.
CO has it's fair share of bad writing but CoH was bad, when it existed.
I don't agree. Even CoH's worst arcs were scores above most of the so-called "arcs" you find in CO, because CO's arcs aren't actually stories.
I didn't think there need to be one. With both Argent and the Gadroon obviously being there and that obviously being unusual, I'd be worried if he did not comment on them.
So would I, but the complete non sequitur change of subject was jarring.
Try skipping the Gadroon missions then try to read the Gadroon lore/computers. Whole lotta fun to be had.
I have read the computers, and actually you need to play at least one of the Gadroon missions to be able read the computers. Furthermore, that is still no substitute for the slip-shod, ADD-riddled "writing" that passes for mission content in this game. As I stated, the lore that we read on those glowies is not affecting the content we're playing through. It's just serving as more filler for an already filler-infested game. Does my knowledge of the Empress help me collect Gadroon DNA or lure out the Gadroon commander from his saucer? It doesn't. It has no bearing. So trying to suggest it as a substitute for the lack of any actual story in the mission content is pointless.
The whole game as a story
The whole game has a story? Where? I've been playing for nearly a year now and I can't find this "story" you're claiming exists.
with random things inbetween.
No, all it is is random things.
CO does spend a bit of time on the random things inbetween but that's because in such a large world, there should be a lot of things inbetween. I guess they could do a better job forcing you along some path,
They already force me on a path (Millennium City > Desert or Canada > Back to Millennium City > More Desert and Canada > Millennium City again > Canada III > Monster Island > Lemuria > Vibora Bay) but the problem is, there's no story at all during that path. Each new hand-off mission takes you to another guy with more plotless, random tasks that're barely connected to each other.
If you're going to show me the world, give me a story to go with that world. Otherwise I'm just a tourist taking pictures.
Again, I think it's one part the medium and another part CO trying to open the world up.
Nice world. Now where's the story that brings the world to life?
I personally wished that the role and AT you chose would affect the story more along with some choices but I can't help but feel that asking for that would result in some issues. I've asked for that but the way Cryptic handles things makes me nervous sometimes.
It's that kind of attitude that contributes nothing to anything.
Oye that's weak.
Another incomplete thought. What's weak? The story? My comment? Your thoughts are short and of little substance just like the mission content in this game.
No, a small series of quests lead-up to Dr. Destroyer's lab. DEMON is a separate thing, yes, but it doesn't lead directly beyond you having to talk to Dr. Silverback at some point.
So you pretty much admit that you were bull****ting about Millennium City leading up to Dr. Destroyer. Okay then. Hard to tell, because you keep mentioning this story that you claim is there, but I don't see it.
I'm not the one who introduced the government shutdown in some poor attempt at an analogy. I'm sorry for calling you out on it.
You didn't call me on anything. I stated that your claim that things just randomly happening is more "realistic" than a plot is wrong by using the recent shutdown as an example because the bickering between Congress and the President has been leading up to it for months. The plot is: they can't agree! The whole thing has been a story in itself.
But no, you went on a strawman tangent by trying to say I was including crimes or whatever being orchestrated by some.... blah blah blah conspiracy... blah.
You were deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument.
The shutdown didn't happen just out of the blue, ambushing us from behind a corner. We had warning. There was buildup. The deadline for the budget was steadily approaching, Congress wasn't budging. Obama wasn't budging. We knew there was chance that the shutdown was going to happen. The foreshadowing was there.
Actions have consequences in life, lestylo, regardless of your refusal to admit that.
My sensibilities are just fine. Just because someone thinks differently than you does not make the strange, especially when their opinion is valid. Then again, this seems like a hard concept to grasp on these boards sometimes.
Well, at least I know what kind of people keep Michael Bay continuously earning a paycheck.
I just like a little more substance to my entertainment than you. All the Baysplosions in the world aren't going to keep me satisfied. But I guess it's okay if you like that stuff, not everyone has the attention span required for understanding a story. I imagine in a few years Hollywood will just churn out films that're just two hours of nothing but explosions, flashing lights, and pew pew pew with none of that silly stuff like dialogue and plot, and you'll like it.
Opinions vs. opinions based on opinions. Yet I'm strange. Maybe I'm a bad person for disliking CoH (how is that possible???).
Honestly, today will probably hold the record of most strawmen built.
If it were me, and I'm working an extra job, effectively, that pays 0 money, my wife and kids would be... less than thrilled.
'But, honey, this is for the honor of the great battle to resurrect a game about being a superhero!'
"What, like Spiderman?"
'Well, yes. Except not Spiderman.'
"Superman?"
'Nobody you've heard of.'
"So... is this going to be worth a lot of money at some point?"
'This is about honor!'
"Your kids need clothes."
People with actually useful skills are very likely to be people who need to survive on those skills, and volunteering ... It's MEAN to expect people to do this.
While I respect how poetically you put things, life just doesn't work that way. And if they have no funding for two years, things aren't going to go well. At least, that's how I predict it.
And, you're asking me if I want to fight for them? Uhh, no. I'm not part of their project, and they're a competitor to my favorite MMO. If they do good, that's cool, I will check the game out. But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in. Compare that to Champions that I've been playing for four years now, even longer than I lasted in WoW.
I don't wish them ill, but I certainly am not part of their "fight."
A few things.
1. Most seem to be assuming no one's going to give them money after this kickstarter finishes. With the dedication of many fans out there, I don't see their funds drying up. Plus within the 6 months they've been working on it, it's coming out to be a good start.
2. "They're a competitor, so I won't help them" is one of the more childish reasons I've heard. Keeping money and trade secrets is actually a recent (in terms of the scope of history) creation. Back in the old days, when a business was starting up, competitors would assist their soon to be competition with money or guidance on how to perform their tasks because it was a nice thing to do. So what if they're trying to cater to a specific market? They aren't saying they want to steal all your players. The threat of competition should also be catalyst for improving one's own game as well, not bashing or doomsaying on one that's still in production.
Also yes, I get it you aren't a dev and the quote was "A competitor to my favorite MMO". The same rule still applies. At least TRY new things before knocking them.
3. "But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in." Bias. Plain and simple. It's born from it, yes.. but the devs have said they're going to be improving on both action and visuals. The livestream that just finished had a few minutes where one model of City Hall was shown. It looked well done for a non-colored and incomplete model. Also, if you meant that it would be basically like CoH.. that's Heroes and Villains you're thinking of.
4. I'm actually curious how much the doomsayers for this game have looked into it, mainly on the forums. While information is trickling out slowly, what we do have paints a wonderful picture that combines CO and CoH mechanics.. to an extent. And the community, much like CoH's was, is a very nice bunch.
5. Many of the devs are very happy and content on working on this for free as it is their passion. Much like abrigders who spend weeks on a single episode and don't get paid a DIME for it, the people they meet and the joy they're bringing is payment enough. These are people who didn't want their love to die and are bringing it's spirit back from the grave. If you think they're crazy for it, then you really don't know what it is to be a hero.
6. While many are relatively unknown, how do we know THIS specifically won't get their names out there? You guys keep saying they have no experience and yet trash their first game. The best experience is doing, people. And by god, they're doing.
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There is honor in struggling without income to launch something you believe in.
But very few grocery stores or utility companies will lend you their services in exchange for your honor. Sooner or later, they're going to want money. Probably sooner, if I know my utility companies.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in. Compare that to Champions...
Good God, this thread is just ping-ponging from actually discussing the topic and mudslinging...
To be on topic, I'm kind of with Smackwell on this; It's a neat idea, but I see work on this piddling away after a while. I also agree with others in that they should really try to base it off of CoH rather than make a flat-out clone of the game. In short, I'm finding it hard to stay interested in it since I never had any good or bad feelings about CoH to begin with.
1. Most seem to be assuming no one's going to give them money after this kickstarter finishes. With the dedication of many fans out there, I don't see their funds drying up. Plus within the 6 months they've been working on it, it's coming out to be a good start.
I'm assuming no such thing. I'm pointing out that it can't be 'volunteer' far into the project without considerably destroying any chance the MMO has of seeing the light of day. In fact, I had asked about any indications about if/when they were going to go pay, and I've generally assumed the Kickstarter is just an early step in the project.
Randell stated he thought it was completely viable for a MMO to be developed with all/mostly volunteers, and I was replying specifically to that.
2. "They're a competitor, so I won't help them" is one of the more childish reasons I've heard. Keeping money and trade secrets is actually a recent (in terms of the scope of history) creation. Back in the old days, when a business was starting up, competitors would assist their soon to be competition with money or guidance on how to perform their tasks because it was a nice thing to do. So what if they're trying to cater to a specific market? They aren't saying they want to steal all your players. The threat of competition should also be catalyst for improving one's own game as well, not bashing or doomsaying on one that's still in production.
Also yes, I get it you aren't a dev and the quote was "A competitor to my favorite MMO". The same rule still applies. At least TRY new things before knocking them.
He also said 'but hey, if they come out with an actual game, I'll at least give it a shot.'
And while in the old days keeping trade secrets may have been unusual (though I'd wonder how far back you are claiming), in the old days they also made children work in horrible deadly factories. ... I'm not sure what any of this bears on the topic.
But keep in mind that most people know CO is on life support. The chance of competition making them step up is... slim, vs. PWE shrugging and pulling the plug.
Given that any given MMO is going to be a gamble on whether it happens to please you, I can see where some people aren't brimming with thrill over CoT.
That said, personally, if such a game comes up and CO dies, then it deserves to.
3. "But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in." Bias. Plain and simple. It's born from it, yes.. but the devs have said they're going to be improving on both action and visuals. The livestream that just finished had a few minutes where one model of City Hall was shown. It looked well done for a non-colored and incomplete model. Also, if you meant that it would be basically like CoH.. that's Heroes and Villains you're thinking of.
Enh. So CoT is banking on people trying it and doing heroic measures to make it a reality because it's like CoX except don't discount it for being like CoX because it's new.
4. I'm actually curious how much the doomsayers for this game have looked into it, mainly on the forums. While information is trickling out slowly, what we do have paints a wonderful picture that combines CO and CoH mechanics.. to an extent. And the community, much like CoH's was, is a very nice bunch.
I thought all we had was some basic models and a lot of discussion?
Again, keep in mind ... I would be _THRILLED_ to see a new game with a flexible mindset. And, personally, ... I'm not committed to any property, so a whole new world/setting suits me fine. I don't care about Marvel, DC, Flaming Carrot, whatever.
5. Many of the devs are very happy and content on working on this for free as it is their passion. Much like abrigders who spend weeks on a single episode and don't get paid a DIME for it, the people they meet and the joy they're bringing is payment enough. These are people who didn't want their love to die and are bringing it's spirit back from the grave. If you think they're crazy for it, then you really don't know what it is to be a hero.
I... am rather appalled at what people are calling 'heroism.'
I've known a lot of creative engineering types who have tinkered away at projects. Without structure, deadlines, and rigor, you end up with scads of unfinished 'promising' projects that never go anywhere.
6. While many are relatively unknown, how do we know THIS specifically won't get their names out there? You guys keep saying they have no experience and yet trash their first game. The best experience is doing, people. And by god, they're doing.
The best experience is doing it in a real company with mentors and organization, where someone knows what they are doing.
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Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I sure hope you're not implying that Champions being "born from" CoX means it's somehow derived from that game. The Champions IP predates CoX by decades.
You keep saying you were forced to play through allegedly bad story arcs, which I don't recall at all. I don't think there was anyone holding a gun to my head and saying, "You must play through Diviner Maros' arc today."
Of course you don't recall. CoH can do no wrong in your eyes it seems, despite it's weak writing.
Last I checked, you could pick and choose which contacts you wanted to concentrate on. How were you "forced?"
The story forces you on a rigid path. One might as well be playing some linear based game.
What was? Be specific. This is an incomplete thought.
I've already referenced this. Most of the writing in the game. It was terrible. And this is the part where you insult me as opposed to actually discussing something and state your opinion like it's a fact.
I don't agree. Even CoH's worst arcs were scores above most of the so-called "arcs" you find in CO, because CO's arcs aren't actually stories.
Wait, so Vibora Bay Apoc is not a story? The comic series aren't stories? You're entitled to your opinion but let's not get carried away.
So would I, but the complete non sequitur change of subject was jarring.
People do that sometimes. Hell, as far as writers go Bendis is fond of this and he's popular enough and his quality, fr the most part is pretty decent. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.
I have read the computers, and actually you need to play at least one of the Gadroon missions to be able read the computers. Furthermore, that is still no substitute for the slip-shod, ADD-riddled "writing" that passes for mission content in this game. As I stated, the lore that we read on those glowies is not affecting the content we're playing through. It's just serving as more filler for an already filler-infested game. Does my knowledge of the Empress help me collect Gadroon DNA or lure out the Gadroon commander from his saucer? It doesn't. It has no bearing. So trying to suggest it as a substitute for the lack of any actual story in the mission content is pointless.
You have to play through more than one to do that. There is a specific mission that unlocks the computers for reading. That said, I can make similar claims about CoX (especially the villain sides) quests. It was fetch this fetch that for some pointless reason that from a story standpoint never meant anything.
The whole game has a story? Where? I've been playing for nearly a year now and I can't find this "story" you're claiming exists.
No, all it is is random things.
The story deals with the possible return of Dr. Destroyer. We find out though, that it really is Shadow Destroyer that has returned. This is what makes Lemuria important because a lot of that is indicted there. Much of what is going on in the world is connected to Shadow Destroyer and his attempt to destabilize the world. Along the way we come across other villains who are trying to achieve their own goals through their own means. The structure of the game at it's basis is that while storylines take place across different zones, each zone has a minor story that is native to that zone (like Vik the blind, the Manaimals, VIPER and all that it is doing, the Lemuria unrest, and so on). There are a lot of random events sprinkled in but only done to give the idea that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. The story does get muddled near the end, but mainly because of the Vibora Bay Apocalypse, which, while it plays into things, how it fits exactly is unusual due to the tie traveling aspect of the story. It's all there though. Even the comic series and adventure packs play into this. They could do a better job to make this obvious but if you are paying attention ( I never do but I still got this so who knows) it becomes obvious. As for an actual timeline with all the quests and how they fit in, I'll be here all day, something I don't care to do for someone so willing to hurl insults.
They already force me on a path (Millennium City > Desert or Canada > Back to Millennium City > More Desert and Canada > Millennium City again > Canada III > Monster Island > Lemuria > Vibora Bay) but the problem is, there's no story at all during that path. Each new hand-off mission takes you to another guy with more plotless, random tasks that're barely connected to each other.
If you're going to show me the world, give me a story to go with that world. Otherwise I'm just a tourist taking pictures.
Nice world. Now where's the story that brings the world to life?
Dr. Destroyer/Shadow Destroyer is the main thread between all these zones. Another aspect to that storyline is that they also drop hints that Destroyer is not who he seems, from his minions returning to even a simple conversation with Black Talon. The Kings of Edom are a minor thread. VIPER is also a thread but much weaker.
It's that kind of attitude that contributes nothing to anything.
True. I could just sit around and insult people for having a different opinion. That would be more constructive.
Another incomplete thought. What's weak? The story? My comment? Your thoughts are short and of little substance just like the mission content in this game.
Take it however you please. Explaining it to you is probably a waste of time anyways.
So you pretty much admit that you were bull****ting about Millennium City leading up to Dr. Destroyer. Okay then. Hard to tell, because you keep mentioning this story that you claim is there, but I don't see it.
No, Witchcraft (or another contact which I've had before because I dislike the Witchcraft quests) will direct you to Dr. Silverback due to something important. This leads you to Karneleon which leads you along a stretch of quests before you reach Destroyer's lab. You don't have to be in MC to be directed to Silverback but certain contacts, whose names escape me, will direct you there with some urgent message about something. The thing is each of these are connected either to the Destroyer main plotline or the Kings of Edom plotline, which we later learn are connected.
You didn't call me on anything. I stated that your claim that things just randomly happening is more "realistic" than a plot is wrong by using the recent shutdown as an example because the bickering between Congress and the President has been leading up to it for months. The plot is: they can't agree! The whole thing has been a story in itself.
But no, you went on a strawman tangent by trying to say I was including crimes or whatever being orchestrated by some.... blah blah blah conspiracy... blah.
You were deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument.
You are the one who introduced it into all of this even though it doesn't even correlate. Yes, things just happen that aren't connected. Something on capitol hill can very well have nothing to do with what is going on in Venuzuela. You're the one who is acting like random things never happen. And that's wrong. Random things sometimes happen.
The shutdown didn't happen just out of the blue, ambushing us from behind a corner. We had warning. There was buildup. The deadline for the budget was steadily approaching, Congress wasn't budging. Obama wasn't budging. We knew there was chance that the shutdown was going to happen. The foreshadowing was there.
Actions have consequences in life, lestylo, regardless of your refusal to admit that.
And that's a separate thing. How does that invalidate random things happening in the world? You see why I said it was a bad example. Of course there is build up for some things and there are random events in other things as well. Not everything has a build-up or is interconnected.
Well, at least I know what kind of people keep Michael Bay continuously earning a paycheck.
I just like a little more substance to my entertainment than you. All the Baysplosions in the world aren't going to keep me satisfied. But I guess it's okay if you like that stuff, not everyone has the attention span required for understanding a story. I imagine in a few years Hollywood will just churn out films that're just two hours of nothing but explosions, flashing lights, and pew pew pew with none of that silly stuff like dialogue and plot, and you'll like it.
Oh stop it. It's a bloody game. You aren't some sort of intellectual just because you like some game with subpar writing. I mean really. The fact that you are trying to use this as some sort of point speaks volumes about you. It's nothing special when you realize a lot of people have refined tastes. Then again, I guess it depends on who you surround yourself with.
Wow. Assuming someone likes movies made by some guy you think is low-brow because you don't like their opinions. I'm honestly curious how you get along with other people in real life. I'm beginning to understand what kind of person I may be dealing with here and how much of a waste of time this is.
Honestly, today will probably hold the record of most strawmen built.
As opposed to the most insults made by a single poster on this board. Congrats to you.
When a discussion has someone actually try and say "I'm smarter/more refined/better than you" without a hint of irony....Oye. I don't know what to say. I've never seen anyone do this and actually mean it. Amazing.
In any case, I still think CoX's stories were bad and the game dreadful. Your free to think this game is horrible and has horrible writing and is not worth the time or whatever or think I'm a horrible person or whatever allegation about me and my personal life you think you can elucidate from my half-hearted postings. I share a different opinion. The game is flawed but not that flawed.
As for the discussion, there is nobility in working for free for something you believe in, but I just don't see it happening here, and even then, it would be a very slow process that will see people dropping out and newer people jumping on that may not have the same fire, drive, and enthusiasm.
In any case, I just hope I can block in this new game. I like being able to block.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
I sure hope you're not implying that Champions being "born from" CoX means it's somehow derived from that game. The Champions IP predates CoX by decades.
The IP wasn't. The game itself was. I would think that part was obvious.
1. Most seem to be assuming no one's going to give them money after this kickstarter finishes. With the dedication of many fans out there, I don't see their funds drying up. Plus within the 6 months they've been working on it, it's coming out to be a good start.
Are you suggesting some guys are going to give this project some hard-earned cash just out of goodwill? Most people do not work for free. And not for two years.
To be clear, I'm not saying that they're not getting paid. Read my posts. I'm saying that IF they're not getting paid, as that 4444 guy said, then it's going to fall apart (and that's just an opinion, not a fact).
2. "They're a competitor, so I won't help them" is one of the more childish reasons I've heard. Keeping money and trade secrets is actually a recent (in terms of the scope of history) creation. Back in the old days, when a business was starting up, competitors would assist their soon to be competition with money or guidance on how to perform their tasks because it was a nice thing to do. So what if they're trying to cater to a specific market? They aren't saying they want to steal all your players. The threat of competition should also be catalyst for improving one's own game as well, not bashing or doomsaying on one that's still in production.
Not that I'm not gonna help, but, compounded with the rest of the reasons why I think I won't like the game, I won't fight for it. Is it really childish to not want to campaign for a project that I don't have any faith in for several reasons, against a game that I like? Can you submit to me some very good reasons to do any of that? If Scarlet Blade was going under, would you be like "YES, I'LL HELP, AND CAMPAIGN FOR YOU GUYS AND GIVE YOU MONEY EVEN THOUGH I DID NOT LIKE THE GAME!" I'd wager you wouldn't.
Also yes, I get it you aren't a dev and the quote was "A competitor to my favorite MMO". The same rule still applies. At least TRY new things before knocking them.
I try plenty of things and did pledge the first day I heard about this. Am I knocking them? No. Am I giving my personal opinion that I think they're going to fail if they have no regular funding? Yeah that's something quite different.
3. "But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in." Bias. Plain and simple. It's born from it, yes.. but the devs have said they're going to be improving on both action and visuals. The livestream that just finished had a few minutes where one model of City Hall was shown. It looked well done for a non-colored and incomplete model. Also, if you meant that it would be basically like CoH.. that's Heroes and Villains you're thinking of.
So I shouldn't have any reservations at all on this game that is modeled from a game I disliked? Come on. I'm biased because the game they're building it on, I thought was crap? I think I have plenty of reason to have an OPINION. Not a bias. It's my opinion based on what they're building the game on. If you hated Monopoly and liked Sorry instead, and you heard Monopoly was going to make a new Monopoly but themed somewhat like Sorry, you're saying you wouldn't have any bias? Please.
5. Many of the devs are very happy and content on working on this for free as it is their passion. Much like abrigders who spend weeks on a single episode and don't get paid a DIME for it, the people they meet and the joy they're bringing is payment enough. These are people who didn't want their love to die and are bringing it's spirit back from the grave. If you think they're crazy for it, then you really don't know what it is to be a hero.
More poetics, thanks. But you're not pulling at my heartstrings. A guy who has to take a second job because his wife left him and now he has to pay child support isn't going to say "Screw child support, I'm making superhero games." Real life happens.
6. While many are relatively unknown, how do we know THIS specifically won't get their names out there? You guys keep saying they have no experience and yet trash their first game. The best experience is doing, people. And by god, they're doing.
The only reason I have any sort of faith in this game, rather than Golden Girl's trainwreck, is because they're not trying to just be another City of Heroes. I'm not trashing their game. I already ponied up some cash for it. I'm just saying I have my doubts. Is it wrong to say that?
If I'd heard from Cryptic that they were trying to remake a "spiritual successor" to City, I would not have applied for beta and would not have been in open beta and would not have bought a lifetime subscription to the game before it launched because of the similarities I and any other normal person would associate with the "spirit" of the dead game.
The fact is that they just made another superhero game, a different superhero game, and that it catered to the things I like. If someone said "We're making another World of ********!" guess what, I wouldn't be jumping in line for it. If someone says "We're making a new City of Heroes!" then I won't be jumping in line for it.* If someone says "We're building the next Quantum Link" I'm not going to dig up my old C64 and throw money at them because it was the first computer I had.
You City guys need to stop being so sensitive. All I said is that I do not expect to like it because they're saying that they want to build a new City of Heroes. Yes, with changes. Yes, with forward-thinking attitudes. Yes, with improvements that they've found in other games.
But please, can I just express my expected opinions? Holy crap.
Of course you don't recall. CoH can do no wrong in your eyes it seems, despite it's weak writing.
The story forces you on a rigid path.
No, I don't recall because it didn't happen. There was never a rigid, set path, because at each level range there was more than enough contacts with their accompanying story arcs to choose from. And there was no realistic way to do ALL of the contacts of a specific level range on a character without out-leveling them first. So depending on which arcs you chose to run on a particular character, no leveling experience was exactly the same
There's a difference between a legitimate critique and lying, and you're frankly lying.
One might as well be playing some linear based game.
You mean like CO? Because CO is linear.
I've already referenced this. Most of the writing in the game. It was terrible.
Having a story is apparently "bad writing." Okay.
I don't agree with that. I think most of the writing in CoH was actually pretty good, especially the newer stuff they were adding.
And this is the part where you insult me
Sorry to disappoint your prediction there.
as opposed to actually discussing something and state your opinion like it's a fact.
Like you?
Wait, so Vibora Bay Apoc is not a story? The comic series aren't stories? You're entitled to your opinion but let's not get carried away.
Actually I'm pretty sure I already established that those are the only stories in the game. But if you suffer from short-term memory loss, that's fine. But I'm referring to 95% of the rest of the content.
People do that sometimes. Hell, as far as writers go Bendis is fond of this and he's popular enough and his quality, fr the most part is pretty decent. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.
Says the guy who objectively claims that CoH had bad writing. Hypocrite alert!
You have to play through more than one to do that. There is a specific mission that unlocks the computers for reading.
No, it can be just the one. The mission is from an item drop. Simply defeating a single Gadroon soldier can get you the item to open the mission.
That said, I can make similar claims about CoX (especially the villain sides) quests. It was fetch this fetch that for some pointless reason that from a story standpoint never meant anything.
Actually just about every clue found in CoH missions contributed to its particular arc. They actually meant very much to their respective stories.
The story deals with the possible return of Dr. Destroyer. We find out though, that it really is Shadow Destroyer that has returned.
And all it required was a bunch of random filler to get there. Worst. Implementation. Ever.
This is what makes Lemuria important because a lot of that is indicted there.
Not as strongly as you think.
Much of what is going on in the world is connected to Shadow Destroyer and his attempt to destabilize the world. Along the way we come across other villains who are trying to achieve their own goals through their own means. The structure of the game at it's basis is that while storylines take place across different zones, each zone has a minor story that is native to that zone (like Vik the blind, the Manaimals, VIPER and all that it is doing, the Lemuria unrest, and so on).
And all of their schemes don't have any cohesive buildup or foreshadowing. It's villains with ADD!
They could do a better job to make this obvious but if you are paying attention ( I never do
Thank you for admitting that. It's the first step to recovery to admit that you have a problem.
it becomes obvious. As for an actual timeline with all the quests and how they fit in, I'll be here all day, something I don't care to do for someone so willing to hurl insults.
I think you have me confused with cybersoldier. I've been a bit snarky, but I've never outright insulted you.
Dr. Destroyer/Shadow Destroyer is the main thread between all these zones.
Not a very strong thread. I barely notice his presence.
Another aspect to that storyline is that they also drop hints that Destroyer is not who he seems, from his minions returning to even a simple conversation with Black Talon. The Kings of Edom are a minor thread.
One that doesn't make any sense.
VIPER is also a thread but much weaker.
Are they even working toward something?
True. I could just sit around and insult people for having a different opinion. That would be more constructive.
Yeahhhh.... I really have not done that in this thread.
Take it however you please. Explaining it to you is probably a waste of time anyways.
You won't because you can't.
No, Witchcraft (or another contact which I've had before because I dislike the Witchcraft quests) will direct you to Dr. Silverback due to something important. This leads you to Karneleon which leads you along a stretch of quests before you reach Destroyer's lab.
Which, umm... isn't what I understand to be a lead-in in the contextual story sense. It's just stumbling onto another loosely strung-together plot.
You don't have to be in MC to be directed to Silverback but certain contacts, whose names escape me, will direct you there with some urgent message about something. The thing is each of these are connected either to the Destroyer main plotline or the Kings of Edom plotline, which we later learn are connected.
Oh great, another connection in a randomly connected metaplot full of connections that don't make any sense.
You are the one who introduced it into all of this even though it doesn't even correlate. Yes, things just happen that aren't connected. Something on capitol hill can very well have nothing to do with what is going on in Venuzuela. You're the one who is acting like random things never happen. And that's wrong. Random things sometimes happen.
Yeah, but they aren't the only things that happen... ever.
And that's a separate thing. How does that invalidate random things happening in the world? You see why I said it was a bad example. Of course there is build up for some things and there are random events in other things as well. Not everything has a build-up or is interconnected.
No, but not everything is completely random either.
Oh stop it. It's a bloody game. You aren't some sort of intellectual just because you like some game with subpar writing.
At least you finally admit Co's writing is terrible.
Wow. Assuming someone likes movies made by some guy you think is low-brow because you don't like their opinions.
Well, you've indicated that you think having a story is "bad writing" so what guess was I supposed to make?
As opposed to the most insults made by a single poster on this board. Congrats to you.
Actually cybersoldier surpassed whatever alleged insults I made in this thread.
When a discussion has someone actually try and say "I'm smarter/more refined/better than you" without a hint of irony....Oye. I don't know what to say. I've never seen anyone do this and actually mean it. Amazing.
You must be new to the Internet.
In any case, I still think CoX's stories were bad and the game dreadful. Your free to think this game is horrible and has horrible writing and is not worth the time or whatever or think I'm a horrible person or whatever allegation about me and my personal life you think you can elucidate from my half-hearted postings. I share a different opinion. The game is flawed but not that flawed.
You seem to be taking my discontent toward CO's crappy writing personally. And I don't hate the game, but apparently criticism = hatred of the game on these boards. I've learned that much.
The IP wasn't. The game itself was. I would think that part was obvious.
And just because video games are a thing ultimately because of the success of Pong doesn't mean they're all born from it.
If CO was somehow supposed to be a successor to CoX then you may have a point but it wasn't. It's a superhero MMO that took elements Cryptic had used previously and knew to be big selling points, like in-depth character creation and character building overall, and added more and newer things to it to make it more unique and set it apart from CoX. CoX showed there was enough of an interest in that particular MMO genre to warrant adding more. That kind of interest and success may have played some part in how CO came to be but that doesn't mean it was born from CoX. Being the first game in a genre doesn't necessarily mean every game in the genre that comes after it is born from it.
DCUO and the Marvel game came into being because people like their respective characters and are interested in online superhero games. Does that mean either of those games were "born from" CoX since it did the online superhero game thing first?
People have been playing superhero roleplaying games since long before CoX was a thing. It was a love of roleplaying games that got the original founders of Cryptic interested in making an MMO involving them. Positron, Statesman and I believe a few others in the Freedom Phalanx were either based on or directly transplanted from the Champions PnP game by their respective developer "alter-egos".
There is honor in struggling without income to launch something you believe in.
But very few grocery stores or utility companies will lend you their services in exchange for your honor. Sooner or later, they're going to want money. Probably sooner, if I know my utility companies.
They are working AND volunteering. They do this in their free time like some people work a second job. Strange concept I know.
Comments
We'll have to agree to disagree but I like how the game handled things and feel it is better than CoX in that regards.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Did they complete the kickstarter to just get the requisite tools yet?
Edit: Not yet, I'm guessing they'll need to meet that goal first before talk of paid employees can even begin. Can't pay people to work with no engine and tools to work with.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Oh dear. Here comes the part where I'm accused of cheerleading and told how to post because it upsets you. That said I said IF a person finds some aspect so bothersome to them, it would be better off if they took off. It would be like if I kept posting about the cooldowns on CoX or the blocky design and brought it up ad nauseam. One would wonder why I bother with the game if so many things bother me.
Funny. That's what I did. Somehow I'm the bad guy for doing that now.
And from what I've heard it looks like the Kickstarter will very likely succeed (it's pretty modest, as such things go)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I honestly want them to succeed as well. More options are always nice. I just don't think they will though. The whole thing is going to fall apart.
Learn to multi-quote.
And yes, that's what CO needs. More people leaving. If everyone that didn't like something about this game left, we'd be left with three fanbois making excuses for CO's failure and blaming everyone else except the actual problem. No, I'm sorry. I'm a decent human being and I don't just walk away when I see something that needs to be fixed or adjusted. I offer what help I can. One can take that to heart if one chooses.
So now I get to break your argument:
And if there is a definite plot, you'll play that plot over and over with each play through so that point falls apart. And yes, there are different ways to play the game. Though they do put it on you to tailor how you do it. You can ignore one plot arc and focus on another or just do random things.
No. There isn't. There is a series of random missions. There are no choices. In the end, the only 'different way to play the game' is whether or not I shoot a bunch of guys in the face or set them on fire to rescue the kitty. No one has asked for a 'solid definite plot' People want a fluid, changing story based on what you, being the hero, choose to do.
The choices are in how you play the game, as opposed to a storyline that you have to play each time you play the game.
So basically you're saying that doing the same clown-shoes mission 50 times with a different set of powers 'changes things up'. You must work for Cryptic.
Story and gameplay are two completely different things. If you don't understand this, you really don't have a valid opinion on anything related to games at all.
Press L. There's some lore there. Then again, if you play through you'll find it.
I have played through. Experience other games besides CO, and you'll see what lore really is. The 'Lore' tab is the writing on the back of a novel. By your logic, I can go read stories all day without opening one. No, this is 'filler'. This is not a story to play through.
Your excuses for the poor writing are bad. Just, really bad.
Wait, a large number of people like that kind of play? You have actual numbers to back that up? I'd love to see them.
I'm certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt- if you ask people 'would you rather your MMORPG have a plot, or just random asinine things to do?' Most would prefer a decent story, rather than not.
No one is asking anything to be taken from the game- only adjusted, fixed. Adding plot is a plus. But since you're so satisfied with this product that has an overwhelming number of complaints and negative reviews, perhaps I should leave, right? After all, CO needs one less paying customer since it's thriving in the MMO market so well, it had to go crawling to the one company that won't shut games down just so it could survive.
Kelplankton said "they know what they're doing."
I'm guessing they do have a plan for paying themselves, but who knows what that could be.
You must have played a different CoH than I did, because I wasn't forced to do anything on CoH. I could pick which contacts I wanted, running through the arcs that felt relevant to my character. If I had a guy who hated Rikti, I'd pick a lot of the contacts that had story arcs that had Rikti.
And they were actual stories, not collections of barely related random tasks.
It does, but it comes out of nowhere. Up until that last mission, all of his tasks have to do with Gadroon. There's no hint that he's also investigating Argent until he gives you that mission. No lead-in at all.
No it isn't. It's just a bunch of diaries or letters randomly placed throughout the world and none of it is important to what you're actually doing.
No! I have never read a comic book like this! The comic books I read have stories. What we get in CO's mission "arcs" are not stories. They have neither beginnings, middles, nor ends.
Granted, I started reading comics in the late eighties since I was six, but all of those comics had stories. CO's progression of content doesn't have stories. It's just random stuff.
Actually it did. For example, Crimson's arc that deals with Malta involves an evil plot to start a war between China and the United States to eradicate superhumans so Malta can go forward with the rest of its plans unopposed. After you resolve that, you uncover that the CIA agent that kept appearing everywhere giving you bad leads was really a Malta Director all along.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand what makes a story a story.
Actually, they really don't. Doctor Destroyer's lab comes out of left field completely, as previously I was fighting DEMON, and for some reason that's connected to the Kings of Edom and the Basilisk Orb search in Canada and Talisman's random use of Irradiates to nuke Project Greenskin. The connections you're claiming don't make sense and ...
Aggh.
Et al., there's no logical progress or conclusion whatsoever.
And interestingly, those are the only actual stories in the game.
As I've said, I'm not looking for a Grand Unified Theory of Supervillainy, so your strawman here remains just that, a strawman.
Then it's apparent that you have strange sensibilities for what constitutes as a story.
No multi-quoting for you.
Oh, yeah, that reminds me: All of these events we've been subjected to are supposed to tie together in the final event of the year. And if anybody has ANY idea how the &$%# that's going to happen, I'd love to hear your theories. The only one that even had a lingering question was Fatal Err0r. I wonder if we'll find out who smuggled a smartphone into Cybermind's cell in Stronghold.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Opinions vs. opinions based on opinions. Yet I'm strange. Maybe I'm a bad person for disliking CoH (how is that possible???).
No. Learn to not ask people to learn things they know how to do but don't feel like doing despite having done them in the past. Thank you for implying I don't know how to multi-quote
Right. I'm sorry, I didn't think you were important enough for me to research. So, you're not unaware how to do something, just simply lazy. Got it.
Wow. A decent human being? Are you implying I'm not, because I seriously hope you aren't trying to imply that. That would be someone trying to make a discussion of opinions about a video game personal. Or you're actually patting yourself on the back for something unremarkable. Either ways, that's pretty disturbing in itself.
As I said before 'one can take this how one wishes'. Since we're using that manner of speaking. You implied that if people don't like the current game, they should leave. Keep in mind you're not the only rational person. If it were a 'dealbreaker', I would have left because I don't breathe with my mouth open and I can form coherent thoughts. And to make a remark- saying 'if you don't like it, leave' does amount to cheerleading. There are other things in CO I praise and stick around for. Just not many, but enough.
At the same time, one has to be cognizant of their complaints and wonder if that is truly what is best for the game overall or just best for me.
Saying 'I like it the way it is, if you don't you can leave' is doing exactly this thing here.
Oh boy. Are you going to show me how to multi-quote too? How to use the multi-quote button that anyone can see?
If you're too lazy to click a button, then it's obvious why story isn't as important to you as graphics and fast gameplay. Guys like you keep Call of Duty in business.
No, you can play through the game how you want to, skipping whole storylines and so forth. Yeah, the game is silly in not acknowledging your decisions but at the same time I can't blame them. It would be hard to indicate that you let Dr. Destroyer win or joined forces with him when your guildmates did the opposite and want to play in Vibora Bay. Some things are just harder to implement. I do wish for a better system but I can't be bothered to comment on it because it's not a deal-breaker to me and I often don't have time to sit and post. This here is a rarity for me.
That's not 'playing a story differently', that's skipping content. Your logic is that if you don't see two episodes of Game of Thrones the second time you watch it- the story changes.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Kind of like your opinion on how using different powers and skipping missions makes the game 'different' and changes the story? Yeah.
lol I don't care how certain you are. Again, give me numbers or you don't have numbers and can't make such a claim or it falls under the "opinion" header.
Actually, since you want to know- burden of proof is on you. I'm just saying... very few people outside the CAWLADOODIE gamers find story to be irrelevant. It is one of the more highly praised aspects of the other games I mentioned, where Champions Online gets praise for... Character Customization and that's about it.
I believe this is what you are looking for below:
The Lore is a bit shoddy. From what I was told, the lore-writers seemed to be more fantasy-oriented fans than actual comic book superhero fans. I'd rather not play Dungeons & Dragons with tights, if that's the case. There's enough swords and sorcery out there on the MMO market. Most of the people who have this shining Silver Age ideal for a superhero game are not comic readers, they just find Wikipedia articles. I'd like someone who's read a lot of comics- including indie titles- to work on this.
It's also really trying too hard to be another City of Heroes. I get it, you loved the game... don't remake it. Make something new. Spiritual Successors don't have to be clones.
The only other problem I am having is I'm not sure which of these games has Golden Girl involved, but she's a wretched troll and I'd honestly rather have Carrot Top and Andy **** calling the shots.
Insults! Yes! I love those! [/sarcasm]. We can agree to disagree on most things but I'm not a big fan of these insults.
I think you should go read the entire kickstarter page. You seem to have gotten some erroneous ideas. Golden Girl was involved with a different project and they are not going to be a clone by any means, far from it, they just want to achieve the same feel and succeed in the areas COX did and beyond.
Seriously, go read it, all of it.
As well I am a fan of many things, don't you think they can too? One nerd interest does not mean you can't have any others.
Well, if you look at the way you've spoken to people in this very thread, "one would think" you would know the myriad of ways one can be insulted.
If being called 'lazy' gets you this butthurt and constitutes bullying, you're kind of being a dramatic crybaby about it. I'm lazy, too. Deal with it.
You're right. It's not cheerleading. I was being too nice about it. You know that 'bullying' thing you were mewling about? I'd say 'if You don't like you, you'd think you'd leave' constitutes bullying people out of the game that want to see it improved.
Fair enough. Usually when people research me in some form or another they aren't impressed anyway.
I'll say this- buying the exact same game over and over again so you can hear some 13-year-old screech in your ear about what he did to your mother DEFINES stupidity for me. It's a fact. Most of these guys don't care about story, they just want some instant mindless gratification. Mindless gratification is fine, I enjoy it. But I won't ever say something can't be better with a good story.
It did. Skipping content and gameplay mechanics are NOT story. They are NOT the same. If you think they are, you seriously might need to step away from this debate.
Of course there is no way to 'prove' that the story is 'better'. I can, however, simply point out that every review of CO points out its story as a weaker point while that same critique is not made as strongly in others. It's a matter of opinion, of course. It's just a very widespread and common opinion that 'a decent story' is better than 'not a story'. If it requires actual hard data to prove this to you, I really think you might need to think about it.
Here's my proof: More people that play this game right now would rather the stories be better written, than not at all. Don't believe me? Ask.
Oh yeah, she was on the other one- Heroes and Villains. The one that isn't moving at all. Right, now I remember.
Well, that's true- but I don't think Transformers vs. Conan the Barbarian would be a good idea...
What I'm saying is I don't want a Comic Book superhero universe that perpetuates MAGIC WINZ ALL! as the final solution for every plot. Fantasy is okay, I guess- but I don't want another fantasy MMO for a long, long time... and I'd rather not see it bleed over into other MMO's. I'm getting a little... eh.. about Wildstar because it's starting to look a bit like WoW in Space.
A debate is a debate. If this is a 'bad example' then you might need to toughen up and not have the internet.
Seriously, I don't know this guy from Adam but I don't hate the guy. He's fine.
But that's okay, if I'm a 'bad example' for the community at least it's SOMETHING.
Can I get that as my user title?
A proclivity for fantasy does not mean magic will be prevalent in a superhero game. In your example you have two totally different things thrown together for no reason, but what you are actually saying is nothing near that. You are saying that, for example, me making a Conan movie would make me do some of the things in transformers in a Conan-eque way. Or that me playing a FPS would make me play an MMORPG in a FPS way.
I'm sure they do have tiny little interelations, but nothing on the magnitude that you are postulating.
Though getting down to brass tacks here: Magic and Superpowers are the same thing in every way. Every spell can be explained by a super power and vice versa. Superpowers can come from spells and spells can be considered superpowers as well. These things are so similar to each other I'm not even sure why it matters anyways honestly.
Also, the team is inspired by COX, which was a game where the dedication and sacrifices of heroes wins all. Magic was just one of the many things they used along the way and Magic is what actually killed Statesmen. Quite a blow in the opposite direction from wins all. Most likely they used magic for Statesmen because he was very superman-esque so the thought of normal attacks killing him would seem a bit suspect.
The problem is not that you two are discussing something, it's that you two are repeating yourselves continuously at this point. There is no productive discussion going on atm because it started simply going in circles and then getting aggressive/insulting.
Whether or not you claim to be the one who is the bad guy or aggressive/insulting is irrelevant because you are propagating it as well, either way you would be equally guilty of it. I personally agree with the pro-story viewpoint, but it's been covered, well, by all of us. Unless I can come up with an entirely new point I just let my arguments stand and be considered and judged by their own merits. I don't need to pound it into someone's head.
That's why at this point I'm pretty much just providing info, I covered the vast majority of my stance on the two games. As an aside, I didn't just do that for the sake of a COH/CO debate. I did it as well because we have COT people watching and I believe it's good for them to be exposed to all the information in this thread from both sides of the debate.
I will agree it is taking things away from the centre of this thread. At the same time, threads to go this way so I have no real excuse other than I'm used to this style of posting (not so much the insults but the tangents). You could always get a mod to do something about it. Part of me feels like we are ruining the thread and part of me feels like it is par for the course and contributes somehow. Just tell a mod and see what he says. I'm honestly down with whatever.
You'd honestly be better served just listing exactly what you want as opposed to pitting two games against each other if this is the case. No game is perfect and misunderstandings happen. You're better off explaining in detail what you want from a game and what you don't want. You did some of that but to an impartial person, the takeaway from your posts is that you want a CoH clone when I'm sure you want something better. Better than CO, better than CoH. Better than DCUO. I would want something with DCUO's style of combat but with CO's customization with CoH's scope.
DCU had something going for it that I kinda thought fell short in execution but good in concept. Attacks and Powers. I always thought it made more sense to have a 'fighting skill' separate from your powers so that you could maybe have that Marksman Telepath or Swordsman that turns into flames, etc.
Listen. This is how threads work on the forums. In a few minutes, someone is going to come in here and post pictures of cats or pugs or transvestites and it'll all be a moot point anyway.
good to see you two sorted it,logically and amicably.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I hope that's not what I'm looking for.
If this is it, then this means they don't plan on paying anyone until the game has launched. If that's the case, I predict a lot of people dropping off the project between now and launch.
Right now many of the volunteers are just spending their free time on it, I would imagine. You think these people are going to work for a couple years for free, on their free time, and stick with it? That's a lot of optimism.
Also keep in mind that a lot of players are "buying the box" with the Kickstarter, and that money goes to licensing fees.
I didn't have to pit the games against each other lol. That just happened because I consider COX to have objectively been the better game as it did better in more areas than CO did since CO is highly specialized in only a few areas where it excels.
But the advantage of group discussion is that you get a wide range of opinions and ideas, which is much more useful than the opinion of just one person.
I woudn't underestimate the COX community. In 20+ years of gaming and 15+ years of MMORPG's I've never seen anything like em. They are resilient, passionate, talented, and normally very polite and helpful. Residents of any other game would have already moved on long ago, but they scratch and claw and fight for every inch and scrap of ground that they can get their hands on to build their dreams with their own hands.
I can't promise that they will make a commercial success, and I'm sure some amount of personnel cycling will occur (that actually happens frequently in PAID MMORPGs, not much difference), but I have faith that they will make a game they believe in and it will ship.
Their indomitably heroic spirit infected me a bit, so I am doing my best to promote COT as well. I've directly contacted in excess of 60 individuals to date informing them of the Kickstarter and will likely contact more. Around 20 have claimed to pledge. This of course doesn't include them telling friends or me posting in more public ways.
I would have never seen myself campaigning a bit for them, but I feel they deserve at least a shot. I couldn't just stand by and not help. Also, IF they managed to wrest success from the fickle hands of the industry and the unpredictable hands of the masses of consumers it would be a grave blow to the commercialized MMORPG industry and a rallying cry for independent development everywhere.
Also, keep in mind people work on things for free ALL THE TIME. There are tons of open source programs, games, operating systems, etc out there. Mods for games as well. You underestimate creative gamers as a whole and the COX folks are an especially committed subsect of those. The world doesn't work soley off of capitalism and greed my friend, just alot of it
They are willing to fight for what they believe in, I am as well. Are you?
Godspeed, Randell.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
While I respect how poetically you put things, life just doesn't work that way. And if they have no funding for two years, things aren't going to go well. At least, that's how I predict it.
And, you're asking me if I want to fight for them? Uhh, no. I'm not part of their project, and they're a competitor to my favorite MMO. If they do good, that's cool, I will check the game out. But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in. Compare that to Champions that I've been playing for four years now, even longer than I lasted in WoW.
I don't wish them ill, but I certainly am not part of their "fight."
If it were me, and I'm working an extra job, effectively, that pays 0 money, my wife and kids would be... less than thrilled.
'But, honey, this is for the honor of the great battle to resurrect a game about being a superhero!'
"What, like Spiderman?"
'Well, yes. Except not Spiderman.'
"Superman?"
'Nobody you've heard of.'
"So... is this going to be worth a lot of money at some point?"
'This is about honor!'
"Your kids need clothes."
People with actually useful skills are very likely to be people who need to survive on those skills, and volunteering ... It's MEAN to expect people to do this.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Is that any different than any studio that might pop up? Or did all of these game studios and other projects go "No money...cant be done!"
Sometimes, you have to take the risk. They have the ability to take the risk. Will it happen? Who knows. But I wouldn't think "not getting paid" is going to be what ruins it for anyone.
Especially if afterwards they might beable to be compensated (I'm assuming some idea of a profit is hoping to happen to pay people, while at the same time being able to keep the game going).
See below.
As thankless as it is, that is how the game and software industry got built. Off the backs of people working far too many hours and far too hard for little to nothing. But they did it anyways because they wanted to.
Where do you think all of this came from?:
http://sourceforge.net/
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2381528,00.asp
Believe it or not alot of people create alot of things for free, and it take a very long amount of time and if you have a wife/family it takes alot of understanding too. But is that any different than a teaching career instead of a engineering career? Or being a musician in your time off from work? Or going to the bar and having a few drinks after work each day?
People do alot of things in addition to their job. They do it for fun, they do it for self improvement, they do it to create things. Even when they run themselves ragged sometimes, because to THEM it's worth it.
Not all of life is greedy selfish capitalism. Makes you think a bit about your own life it does, and how you spend your time. For instance with regular viewing and responses how many people here are spending a good deal of time playing games and viewing forums? Couldn't that time be spent creating music, film, photography, art, video games?
I hope one day your lives are full of that sort of satisfaction, even if it does cost you. Because it's worth it and you end up with things to show for it instead of a few levels
So if everything blows up but they give us a solid foundation, the community can still have something to go to. It's almost like they are gamers too
Oh it's really cool. The beginning is a little (trying to omit spoilers) slow and pedestrian, but the story ramps up quickly. The overall arc of the story is pretty....ok not gonna do well on spoilers after all....it's grim.
Also, it's a rescue mission. I mean jesus just the concept of "oops we forgot you in hell"...from my perspective it just chucks the whole good guy vs bad guy thing right out the door. Cmon, people are trapped in a hellish dimension after mounting a rescue mission of sorts in Demonflame. Who is gonna put up with that? Even dark side anti hero villian types have limits, I can't imagine anyone knowingly leaving people in a dimension like Qlipthoth simply to rot.
One of the few missions with gravity, I like the lore but when I run it I sometimes want the contacts to be less wordy and just point out where the hell everything went south so the extraction process is quicker and easier. Figure one should assign blame later when everyone's out if you need to feel heroic or whatever.
We have this mission, and we have one where a goofus hits you with a bubble gum gun. I'm not defending CO's writing, mostly it's just lazy pop references when not just flat out lazy. But it does have it's moments (vb apoc resistance aftershock demonflame etc).
Sorry Kenpo not sure why I quoted you, you know the game, I went into autopilot sell mode there.
You keep saying you were forced to play through allegedly bad story arcs, which I don't recall at all. I don't think there was anyone holding a gun to my head and saying, "You must play through Diviner Maros' arc today."
Last I checked, you could pick and choose which contacts you wanted to concentrate on. How were you "forced?"
What was? Be specific. This is an incomplete thought.
I don't agree. Even CoH's worst arcs were scores above most of the so-called "arcs" you find in CO, because CO's arcs aren't actually stories.
So would I, but the complete non sequitur change of subject was jarring.
I have read the computers, and actually you need to play at least one of the Gadroon missions to be able read the computers. Furthermore, that is still no substitute for the slip-shod, ADD-riddled "writing" that passes for mission content in this game. As I stated, the lore that we read on those glowies is not affecting the content we're playing through. It's just serving as more filler for an already filler-infested game. Does my knowledge of the Empress help me collect Gadroon DNA or lure out the Gadroon commander from his saucer? It doesn't. It has no bearing. So trying to suggest it as a substitute for the lack of any actual story in the mission content is pointless.
The whole game has a story? Where? I've been playing for nearly a year now and I can't find this "story" you're claiming exists.
No, all it is is random things.
They already force me on a path (Millennium City > Desert or Canada > Back to Millennium City > More Desert and Canada > Millennium City again > Canada III > Monster Island > Lemuria > Vibora Bay) but the problem is, there's no story at all during that path. Each new hand-off mission takes you to another guy with more plotless, random tasks that're barely connected to each other.
If you're going to show me the world, give me a story to go with that world. Otherwise I'm just a tourist taking pictures.
Nice world. Now where's the story that brings the world to life?
It's that kind of attitude that contributes nothing to anything.
Another incomplete thought. What's weak? The story? My comment? Your thoughts are short and of little substance just like the mission content in this game.
So you pretty much admit that you were bull****ting about Millennium City leading up to Dr. Destroyer. Okay then. Hard to tell, because you keep mentioning this story that you claim is there, but I don't see it.
You didn't call me on anything. I stated that your claim that things just randomly happening is more "realistic" than a plot is wrong by using the recent shutdown as an example because the bickering between Congress and the President has been leading up to it for months. The plot is: they can't agree! The whole thing has been a story in itself.
But no, you went on a strawman tangent by trying to say I was including crimes or whatever being orchestrated by some.... blah blah blah conspiracy... blah.
You were deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument.
The shutdown didn't happen just out of the blue, ambushing us from behind a corner. We had warning. There was buildup. The deadline for the budget was steadily approaching, Congress wasn't budging. Obama wasn't budging. We knew there was chance that the shutdown was going to happen. The foreshadowing was there.
Actions have consequences in life, lestylo, regardless of your refusal to admit that.
Well, at least I know what kind of people keep Michael Bay continuously earning a paycheck.
I just like a little more substance to my entertainment than you. All the Baysplosions in the world aren't going to keep me satisfied. But I guess it's okay if you like that stuff, not everyone has the attention span required for understanding a story. I imagine in a few years Hollywood will just churn out films that're just two hours of nothing but explosions, flashing lights, and pew pew pew with none of that silly stuff like dialogue and plot, and you'll like it.
Honestly, today will probably hold the record of most strawmen built.
A few things.
1. Most seem to be assuming no one's going to give them money after this kickstarter finishes. With the dedication of many fans out there, I don't see their funds drying up. Plus within the 6 months they've been working on it, it's coming out to be a good start.
2. "They're a competitor, so I won't help them" is one of the more childish reasons I've heard. Keeping money and trade secrets is actually a recent (in terms of the scope of history) creation. Back in the old days, when a business was starting up, competitors would assist their soon to be competition with money or guidance on how to perform their tasks because it was a nice thing to do. So what if they're trying to cater to a specific market? They aren't saying they want to steal all your players. The threat of competition should also be catalyst for improving one's own game as well, not bashing or doomsaying on one that's still in production.
Also yes, I get it you aren't a dev and the quote was "A competitor to my favorite MMO". The same rule still applies. At least TRY new things before knocking them.
3. "But I have my reservations on whether I will like it or not, because it is born from City of Heroes, a game that bored me less than a year in." Bias. Plain and simple. It's born from it, yes.. but the devs have said they're going to be improving on both action and visuals. The livestream that just finished had a few minutes where one model of City Hall was shown. It looked well done for a non-colored and incomplete model. Also, if you meant that it would be basically like CoH.. that's Heroes and Villains you're thinking of.
4. I'm actually curious how much the doomsayers for this game have looked into it, mainly on the forums. While information is trickling out slowly, what we do have paints a wonderful picture that combines CO and CoH mechanics.. to an extent. And the community, much like CoH's was, is a very nice bunch.
5. Many of the devs are very happy and content on working on this for free as it is their passion. Much like abrigders who spend weeks on a single episode and don't get paid a DIME for it, the people they meet and the joy they're bringing is payment enough. These are people who didn't want their love to die and are bringing it's spirit back from the grave. If you think they're crazy for it, then you really don't know what it is to be a hero.
6. While many are relatively unknown, how do we know THIS specifically won't get their names out there? You guys keep saying they have no experience and yet trash their first game. The best experience is doing, people. And by god, they're doing.
But very few grocery stores or utility companies will lend you their services in exchange for your honor. Sooner or later, they're going to want money. Probably sooner, if I know my utility companies.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Which was born from...City of Heroes...
:eek:
Go figure...
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
To be on topic, I'm kind of with Smackwell on this; It's a neat idea, but I see work on this piddling away after a while. I also agree with others in that they should really try to base it off of CoH rather than make a flat-out clone of the game. In short, I'm finding it hard to stay interested in it since I never had any good or bad feelings about CoH to begin with.
I'm assuming no such thing. I'm pointing out that it can't be 'volunteer' far into the project without considerably destroying any chance the MMO has of seeing the light of day. In fact, I had asked about any indications about if/when they were going to go pay, and I've generally assumed the Kickstarter is just an early step in the project.
Randell stated he thought it was completely viable for a MMO to be developed with all/mostly volunteers, and I was replying specifically to that.
He also said 'but hey, if they come out with an actual game, I'll at least give it a shot.'
And while in the old days keeping trade secrets may have been unusual (though I'd wonder how far back you are claiming), in the old days they also made children work in horrible deadly factories. ... I'm not sure what any of this bears on the topic.
But keep in mind that most people know CO is on life support. The chance of competition making them step up is... slim, vs. PWE shrugging and pulling the plug.
Given that any given MMO is going to be a gamble on whether it happens to please you, I can see where some people aren't brimming with thrill over CoT.
That said, personally, if such a game comes up and CO dies, then it deserves to.
Enh. So CoT is banking on people trying it and doing heroic measures to make it a reality because it's like CoX except don't discount it for being like CoX because it's new.
Trying to have it both ways!
I thought all we had was some basic models and a lot of discussion?
Again, keep in mind ... I would be _THRILLED_ to see a new game with a flexible mindset. And, personally, ... I'm not committed to any property, so a whole new world/setting suits me fine. I don't care about Marvel, DC, Flaming Carrot, whatever.
But all we have now is... earnest pronouncements.
I... am rather appalled at what people are calling 'heroism.'
I've known a lot of creative engineering types who have tinkered away at projects. Without structure, deadlines, and rigor, you end up with scads of unfinished 'promising' projects that never go anywhere.
The best experience is doing it in a real company with mentors and organization, where someone knows what they are doing.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I sure hope you're not implying that Champions being "born from" CoX means it's somehow derived from that game. The Champions IP predates CoX by decades.
When a discussion has someone actually try and say "I'm smarter/more refined/better than you" without a hint of irony....Oye. I don't know what to say. I've never seen anyone do this and actually mean it. Amazing.
In any case, I still think CoX's stories were bad and the game dreadful. Your free to think this game is horrible and has horrible writing and is not worth the time or whatever or think I'm a horrible person or whatever allegation about me and my personal life you think you can elucidate from my half-hearted postings. I share a different opinion. The game is flawed but not that flawed.
As for the discussion, there is nobility in working for free for something you believe in, but I just don't see it happening here, and even then, it would be a very slow process that will see people dropping out and newer people jumping on that may not have the same fire, drive, and enthusiasm.
In any case, I just hope I can block in this new game. I like being able to block.
The IP wasn't. The game itself was.
Are you suggesting some guys are going to give this project some hard-earned cash just out of goodwill? Most people do not work for free. And not for two years.
To be clear, I'm not saying that they're not getting paid. Read my posts. I'm saying that IF they're not getting paid, as that 4444 guy said, then it's going to fall apart (and that's just an opinion, not a fact).
Not that I'm not gonna help, but, compounded with the rest of the reasons why I think I won't like the game, I won't fight for it. Is it really childish to not want to campaign for a project that I don't have any faith in for several reasons, against a game that I like? Can you submit to me some very good reasons to do any of that? If Scarlet Blade was going under, would you be like "YES, I'LL HELP, AND CAMPAIGN FOR YOU GUYS AND GIVE YOU MONEY EVEN THOUGH I DID NOT LIKE THE GAME!" I'd wager you wouldn't.
I try plenty of things and did pledge the first day I heard about this. Am I knocking them? No. Am I giving my personal opinion that I think they're going to fail if they have no regular funding? Yeah that's something quite different.
So I shouldn't have any reservations at all on this game that is modeled from a game I disliked? Come on. I'm biased because the game they're building it on, I thought was crap? I think I have plenty of reason to have an OPINION. Not a bias. It's my opinion based on what they're building the game on. If you hated Monopoly and liked Sorry instead, and you heard Monopoly was going to make a new Monopoly but themed somewhat like Sorry, you're saying you wouldn't have any bias? Please.
More poetics, thanks. But you're not pulling at my heartstrings. A guy who has to take a second job because his wife left him and now he has to pay child support isn't going to say "Screw child support, I'm making superhero games." Real life happens.
The only reason I have any sort of faith in this game, rather than Golden Girl's trainwreck, is because they're not trying to just be another City of Heroes. I'm not trashing their game. I already ponied up some cash for it. I'm just saying I have my doubts. Is it wrong to say that?
If I'd heard from Cryptic that they were trying to remake a "spiritual successor" to City, I would not have applied for beta and would not have been in open beta and would not have bought a lifetime subscription to the game before it launched because of the similarities I and any other normal person would associate with the "spirit" of the dead game.
The fact is that they just made another superhero game, a different superhero game, and that it catered to the things I like. If someone said "We're making another World of ********!" guess what, I wouldn't be jumping in line for it. If someone says "We're making a new City of Heroes!" then I won't be jumping in line for it.* If someone says "We're building the next Quantum Link" I'm not going to dig up my old C64 and throw money at them because it was the first computer I had.
You City guys need to stop being so sensitive. All I said is that I do not expect to like it because they're saying that they want to build a new City of Heroes. Yes, with changes. Yes, with forward-thinking attitudes. Yes, with improvements that they've found in other games.
But please, can I just express my expected opinions? Holy crap.
No, I don't recall because it didn't happen. There was never a rigid, set path, because at each level range there was more than enough contacts with their accompanying story arcs to choose from. And there was no realistic way to do ALL of the contacts of a specific level range on a character without out-leveling them first. So depending on which arcs you chose to run on a particular character, no leveling experience was exactly the same
There's a difference between a legitimate critique and lying, and you're frankly lying.
You mean like CO? Because CO is linear.
Having a story is apparently "bad writing." Okay.
I don't agree with that. I think most of the writing in CoH was actually pretty good, especially the newer stuff they were adding.
Sorry to disappoint your prediction there.
Like you?
Actually I'm pretty sure I already established that those are the only stories in the game. But if you suffer from short-term memory loss, that's fine. But I'm referring to 95% of the rest of the content.
Says the guy who objectively claims that CoH had bad writing. Hypocrite alert!
No, it can be just the one. The mission is from an item drop. Simply defeating a single Gadroon soldier can get you the item to open the mission.
Actually just about every clue found in CoH missions contributed to its particular arc. They actually meant very much to their respective stories.
And all it required was a bunch of random filler to get there. Worst. Implementation. Ever.
Not as strongly as you think.
And all of their schemes don't have any cohesive buildup or foreshadowing. It's villains with ADD!
Thank you for admitting that. It's the first step to recovery to admit that you have a problem.
I think you have me confused with cybersoldier. I've been a bit snarky, but I've never outright insulted you.
Not a very strong thread. I barely notice his presence.
One that doesn't make any sense.
Are they even working toward something?
Yeahhhh.... I really have not done that in this thread.
You won't because you can't.
Which, umm... isn't what I understand to be a lead-in in the contextual story sense. It's just stumbling onto another loosely strung-together plot.
Oh great, another connection in a randomly connected metaplot full of connections that don't make any sense.
Yeah, but they aren't the only things that happen... ever.
No, but not everything is completely random either.
At least you finally admit Co's writing is terrible.
Well, you've indicated that you think having a story is "bad writing" so what guess was I supposed to make?
Actually cybersoldier surpassed whatever alleged insults I made in this thread.
You must be new to the Internet.
You seem to be taking my discontent toward CO's crappy writing personally. And I don't hate the game, but apparently criticism = hatred of the game on these boards. I've learned that much.
And just because video games are a thing ultimately because of the success of Pong doesn't mean they're all born from it.
If CO was somehow supposed to be a successor to CoX then you may have a point but it wasn't. It's a superhero MMO that took elements Cryptic had used previously and knew to be big selling points, like in-depth character creation and character building overall, and added more and newer things to it to make it more unique and set it apart from CoX. CoX showed there was enough of an interest in that particular MMO genre to warrant adding more. That kind of interest and success may have played some part in how CO came to be but that doesn't mean it was born from CoX. Being the first game in a genre doesn't necessarily mean every game in the genre that comes after it is born from it.
DCUO and the Marvel game came into being because people like their respective characters and are interested in online superhero games. Does that mean either of those games were "born from" CoX since it did the online superhero game thing first?
People have been playing superhero roleplaying games since long before CoX was a thing. It was a love of roleplaying games that got the original founders of Cryptic interested in making an MMO involving them. Positron, Statesman and I believe a few others in the Freedom Phalanx were either based on or directly transplanted from the Champions PnP game by their respective developer "alter-egos".
They are working AND volunteering. They do this in their free time like some people work a second job. Strange concept I know.