I play a control based toon with a ton of debuffs and I play in the healer role. So people see that damn cross and are asking me why the heck I am not healing them. I am Telepathy/Dark/and other junk. I am FF, so yes I could take a heal, but my other toon is a healer type forcefielder.
But I wanted something thematic and different. I still do a lot on alerts, missions etc. Even if subtle. But my damage is good.
So it's not just tanks. It's the icons. They mislead people.
Now is someone is playing celestial you see some heals, then definately they should be doing their job.
try it when you are in support,with aura of ebon darkness and concentration and they ask why aren't you healing?
or my favourite, entire group is hybrid or ranged dps.... "res please" "can someone res me"
The core issue is that, as of Free for All, Champions is functionally a trinity-based game with a pay option to vary around it.
The problem is that the structure of the game hasn't conformed to this. Archetypes WILL fail without a trinity, and the que system pulls people randomly instead of based on role.
This could be partially fixed by allowing people to que as Tank/Heal/DPS and launching only when the first two are filled at minimum. This comes with other problems though.
The core issue is that, as of Free for All, Champions is functionally a trinity-based game with a pay option to vary around it.
The problem is that the structure of the game hasn't conformed to this. Archetypes WILL fail without a trinity, and the que system pulls people randomly instead of based on role.
This could be partially fixed by allowing people to que as Tank/Heal/DPS and launching only when the first two are filled at minimum. This comes with other problems though.
Yea. Let Archetypes queue in their own Alerts.
...
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
And playing by myself since Aug 2009 Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Archetypes WILL fail without a trinity, and the que system pulls people randomly instead of based on role.
Perhaps in some limited circumstances, but overall...not really. With the exception of some very specific fights trinity is unnecessary for ATs too. FF may have an easier time without trinity play due to greater availability of self heals, but ATs can manage just fine (and some ATs are better built than some of the FF out there).
My ATs seem to be able to manage just fine, thanks. Then again, I don't insist on trying to solo with the especially squishy builds, nor do I insist on trying to, for instance, tank with my Inferno - when he pulls aggro, he pulls out, or in extremis death-wipes the threat. (Stars aren't that expensive, when I get back to RenCen...)
OTOH, I did once tank an Alert with an Inferno - somebody was healing me the entire time, so I was able to pour out flame like a rocket exhaust and have my health bar stay above 50%.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
My ATs seem to be able to manage just fine, thanks. Then again, I don't insist on trying to solo with the especially squishy builds, nor do I insist on trying to, for instance, tank with my Inferno - when he pulls aggro, he pulls out, or in extremis death-wipes the threat. (Stars aren't that expensive, when I get back to RenCen...)
OTOH, I did once tank an Alert with an Inferno - somebody was healing me the entire time, so I was able to pour out flame like a rocket exhaust and have my health bar stay above 50%.
Sounds like me when I do alerts. :biggrin: Knowing I have a dedicated healer I will dish out all my DPS as I can and tank as a squishy because I trust some of my friends who heal me that I run with.
I play a control based toon with a ton of debuffs and I play in the healer role. So people see that damn cross and are asking me why the heck I am not healing them. I am Telepathy/Dark/and other junk. I am FF, so yes I could take a heal, but my other toon is a healer type forcefielder.
But I wanted something thematic and different. I still do a lot on alerts, missions etc. Even if subtle. But my damage is good.
So it's not just tanks. It's the icons. They mislead people.
Now is someone is playing celestial you see some heals, then definately they should be doing their job.
One of my characters is on the other end of that. She is a healer, but runs in hybrid role, and all the heals are short range, so people have no idea that they're supposed to come running to me when their health gets low...I swear half the time when I do manage to get to them to heal them they're like "huh? why did my health fill up? bug?"
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'm really shocked that this has turned into a 12 page ordeal at the top of forum discussion, haha. Never meant to cause such a stir, and I definitely don't have time to read all this.
Basically what I've taken from all that I have read, which is at least a few posts per page, is that:
1.) The icons are misleading.
2.) Free form negates the need for roles, PERIOD, with tons of examples as to how builds can be made that perform multiple functions or perform functions while in roles that do not indicate said function.
3.) Archetypes are an afterthought in this game, so even though you might buy a ranged DPS, or a healer, or a tank, there's no guarantee that you will be able to perform that role, even if that's what you paid for when you bought it (so, I buy DPS, I don't expect to have to tank, etc.)
4.) Dumping aggro via dropping DPS via blocking in content that is often on a timer is considered advisable by some people. Even though there are alarmingly high fail rate statistics for said content as it is. Every second I block because a tank doesn't have aggro is a second that misses my dmg output, which could be a second, or cumulative stack of seconds-difference between succeeding and not succeeding in the fight.
As an aside to this bullet point, blocking doesn't do much in the way of aggro wiping. Travel powers don't either. Because as soon as I start attacking, assuming I survive, in a dire circumstance, the very long gap between offensive and defensive posture, the aggro will come right back to me anyways, in my experience.
5.) Buy healing devices. Yes, I have stacks of healing devices in my device tray. Unfortunately, they're pretty borked as far as potions go, since they're on a global cooldown that's quite egregious given the fast paced nature of combat in the game.
6.) Run away with your travel power. If I'm running, I'm not killing. In the 'holy trinity' games that you all seem to despise so much, I never have to run away. I'm durable enough to do my job, if I need to dump aggro I lay off my chain for a minute (note: an MMO minute. As in, about a second, second and a half) and the tank promptly picks it right back up. No risk of defeat, no holding block for minutes at a time, only to re-incur boss wrath and hold it until the cycle repeats. I don't play games to base my strategy around death, or not attacking for long periods of time. As you should all know as gamers, a half second to two seconds is a long time to not be attacking- it can be the difference between digits in a DPS total.
But I feel the need to close this list off by pointing out that it's really not a big deal. Yes, there's some funky stuff going on. My standards are also probably a little high. Overall though, it's all good on my end. I still like it here and really didn't mean to stir up such a controversy. Just sort of my two cents.
Terrathrun... the only shocking thing to me is how different your game experience is to mine; and yes I play archetypes, of all three "roles". I don't have any of these problems you speak of, and I'm not some "leet" gamer.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Terrathrun... the only shocking thing to me is how different your game experience is to mine; and yes I play archetypes, of all three "roles". I don't have any of these problems you speak of, and I'm not some "leet" gamer.
Not sure what you mean by the last part- I've seen that used to imply that someone isn't good at playing games at all and it serves as an effective deflection tool, but I've also seen it used to mean that someone is not interested in raiding or end game, doesn't like math, etc. I don't know you so I don't really know which interpretation to apply. Bolded for emphasis.
Dear OP. Stop putting agro advantages on your attacks. I was in a Rad Rumble with you today . Watching you go up against Ripper was like watching Kermit the Frog go up against Megatron.
Lots of flailing arms , running away, watching you die and headdesking occurred.
The combat logs were funneh mind
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I am not sure about those alarmingly high failure statistics. I have done many hundreds of alerts and have seen perhaps as many as fifteen failures. Of those some were against Ao'Qephoth. Others failed due to bugs. At least two failed due to what I assume was a griefer purposefully throwing the Trainstopping mission.
I do not queue as part of a pre-made.
I do not run min/max builds.
I am not a particularly great player.
I honestly don't know what to tell you OP. Your experiences do not match my own. I have played both ATs and FF without running into the problems you seem to encounter frequently. Perhaps I am very lucky. Perhaps you are particularly unlucky.
Perhaps you're also not mentioning that you have at least thirty times more experience than he does. That's the best kind of "luck". There is no reason that he should think he's making worse mistakes than anyone else does while starting out.
Dear OP. Stop putting agro advantages on your attacks. I was in a Rad Rumble with you today . Watching you go up against Ripper was like watching Kermit the Frog go up against Megatron.
Lots of flailing arms , running away, watching you die and headdesking occurred.
The combat logs were funneh mind
If this is actually the case, Terrathraun, the blame is completely on you and you might want to respec.
If you're taking Crippling Challenge and/or Challenging Strikes for their damage debuffs, you should know that those powers increase your threat - basically taunting the enemy to attack you. You gaining aggro cannot be blamed on other tanks.
Perhaps you're also not mentioning that you have at least thirty times more experience than he does. That's the best kind of "luck". There is no reason that he should think he's making worse mistakes than anyone else does while starting out.
I thought that the, "many hundreds," portion of my post was a mention of my experience. That was my intention when including it.
I do not know what mistakes, if any, he is making without his build. Even within an ATs limitations the choices available can have a huge impact (for good or ill). If Nepht is correct about him using either CC or CS then its an easy fix. I'll even chip in for his respec if needed.
Perhaps you're also not mentioning that you have at least thirty times more experience than he does. That's the best kind of "luck". There is no reason that he should think he's making worse mistakes than anyone else does while starting out.
Apparently he studied the FF system without ever using it.
He said that earlier in the thread he made a statement that he knows all .
He obviously knows better than us ^.^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Putting CC and/or CS on a DPS build is a big no no unless you know for a fact you are able to survive incoming hits. The tooltip of the advantages can be misleading. "Hmm it increases threat...BUT WAIT! A debuff? I'm totally taking it!"
Putting CC and/or CS on a DPS build is a big no no unless you know for a fact you are able to survive incoming hits. The tooltip of the advantages can be misleading. "Hmm it increases threat...BUT WAIT! A debuff? I'm totally taking it!"
Yeah, I took CC on an early iteration of my Archery main. At the time I was looking for a way to add some group synergy to my build. I only used the attack with CC when another player in my group was taking too much heat. I would tap my CC carrier and trigger Masterful Dodge, hopefully giving the other player time to recover. I did Nemcon a lot (approx a hundred times a week) back then, and PvPd regularly so it was worth it (to me).
Doing Nemcon that frequently meant meeting other regulars for the lair and a couple of us ended up doing the same thing. We would take turns trading aggro back and forth. When one got low on health the other would take it with CC. Worked great even if we were both running pure DPS builds.
Perhaps you're also not mentioning that you have at least thirty times more experience than he does. That's the best kind of "luck". There is no reason that he should think he's making worse mistakes than anyone else does while starting out.
One could also say that when "just starting out" it's probably not a solid move to start critisicising other people for causing his own failures...
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yeah, I took CC on an early iteration of my Archery main. At the time I was looking for a way to add some group synergy to my build. I only used the attack with CC when another player in my group was taking too much heat. I would tap my CC carrier and trigger Masterful Dodge, hopefully giving the other player time to recover. I did Nemcon a lot (approx a hundred times a week) back then, and PvPd regularly so it was worth it (to me).
Doing Nemcon that frequently meant meeting other regulars for the lair and a couple of us ended up doing the same thing. We would take turns trading aggro back and forth. When one got low on health the other would take it with CC. Worked great even if we were both running pure DPS builds.
That right there is strategy. I can admit I took CC on one of my DPS toons only because at the time I was lvling up with a friend and we had the idea of them be the main tank and I was a off tank. When they get low on health I would nab hate away from him and give him time to recover before he takes it back. Worked great when there is a lack of a healer in the group.
14-15 times per day? How did you find the time? :eek:
Didn't start out with that kind of frequency, but gradually got the time better and better so I could get in more runs per play session. It was one of the few places where I could count on getting a group together (I really prefer group play) for a level 40 instance without a lot of standing around waiting. Plus Dr D has always been one of my favorites.
A couple of things that can help one have more time to spend in a game:
4.) Dumping aggro via dropping DPS via blocking in content that is often on a timer is considered advisable by some people. Even though there are alarmingly high fail rate statistics for said content as it is. Every second I block because a tank doesn't have aggro is a second that misses my dmg output, which could be a second, or cumulative stack of seconds-difference between succeeding and not succeeding in the fight.
You're never guaranteed a tank in a pug. If you don't see a tank, and you don't want to dump aggro, your choice is then "do zero DPS while blocking" and "do zero DPS while running back to the fight."
Having all three trinity roles matters less than having a group of competent players. If you're stealing aggro constantly on a team, and there's other competent players in your team, someone should be able to pull aggro from you while you block. Or heal you, or tank that threat, depending on what they do. Some friends I run alerts with, if I stop my DPS for a couple seconds, someone else will pick up the aggro already. So I can pop a heal, use a potion, whatever, then start the DPS again.
As an aside to this bullet point, blocking doesn't do much in the way of aggro wiping.
Not directly, as a mechanic, no. But for every second that you're blocking damage and not generating aggro, you're allowing others to catch up to your aggro, effectively "dumping" some aggro. You're basically keeping yourself alive while others pick up the threat.
6.) Run away with your travel power. If I'm running, I'm not killing.
Once again, it's your choice if you want to do zero DPS while running away or zero DPS while running back to the fight.
In the 'holy trinity' games that you all seem to despise so much, I never have to run away.
It's not that people despise it, it's that this game isn't built around that theory. Don't rely on something that barely exists in this game.
I still like it here and really didn't mean to stir up such a controversy. Just sort of my two cents.
A long discussion doesn't mean controversy... just a discussion going on.
Dear OP. Stop putting agro advantages on your attacks. I was in a Rad Rumble with you today . Watching you go up against Ripper was like watching Kermit the Frog go up against Megatron.
Lots of flailing arms , running away, watching you die and headdesking occurred.
The combat logs were funneh mind
That's my damage, not aggro advantages. You might have noticed that if I did die I got the aggro back right away, not from crippling challenge or anything but from damage output. And yes I kite. I'm ranged DPS, that's how you play ranged DPS.
That's my damage, not aggro advantages. You might have noticed that if I did die I got the aggro back right away, not from crippling challenge or anything but from damage output. And yes I kite. I'm ranged DPS, that's how you play ranged DPS.
Ok, personal question if you don't mind : do you have Crippling Challenge and/or Challenging Strikes on one or more of your powers?
That's my damage, not aggro advantages. You might have noticed that if I did die I got the aggro back right away, not from crippling challenge or anything but from damage output. And yes I kite. I'm ranged DPS, that's how you play ranged DPS.
Thats not what the combat logs said. There is also a difference between kiting and running away. You see in this game theres a thing called Combat Logs. Thats how you can tell how others play. You have CC or an aggro causing advantage on one of your main attacks.
You also heard a little roar noise and seen the little red stripes. Thats agro.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Yea. I love watching when some Ranged DPS has All The Aggro, is just about to die and keeps "kiting" still blasting away and trying to type 'HEALS HEALS' same time. Dies, comes back and starts blasting, gets All The Aggro and so on...
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
And playing by myself since Aug 2009 Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Yea. I love watching when some Ranged DPS has All The Aggro, is just about to die and keeps "kiting" still blasting away and trying to type 'HEALS HEALS' same time. Dies, comes back and starts blasting, gets All The Aggro and so on...
Where you in that alert to Finn?
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
You're never guaranteed a tank in a pug. If you don't see a tank, and you don't want to dump aggro, your choice is then "do zero DPS while blocking" and "do zero DPS while running back to the fight."
That's fair, I mentioned this in another thread but I really like how TOR handles their ques- you que for a role, so you select damage/tank/healer and it matches teams up. I guess it wouldn't translate to this game with the abundance of Tankmages but I think there has to be some way to make something similar work.
Having all three trinity roles matters less than having a group of competent players. If you're stealing aggro constantly on a team, and there's other competent players in your team, someone should be able to pull aggro from you while you block. Or heal you, or tank that threat, depending on what they do. Some friends I run alerts with, if I stop my DPS for a couple seconds, someone else will pick up the aggro already. So I can pop a heal, use a potion, whatever, then start the DPS again.
Healers in this game definitely seem to have their act together overall. When I get in a que with a healer it's basically guaranteed smooth sailing. I know DPS works well since I know I do a bunch of damage, and every so often someone will pull aggro off of me, either through tanking or DPS- it's actually hard to tell which now since I know the roles are essentially meaningless.
Not directly, as a mechanic, no. But for every second that you're blocking damage and not generating aggro, you're allowing others to catch up to your aggro, effectively "dumping" some aggro. You're basically keeping yourself alive while others pick up the threat.
Oh I get that completely, I was speaking anecdotal. Most of the time when I block the bosses will still stay on me until I'm dead, and all the other times I block and I pull the aggro right back as soon as I start attacking again. I also like to gun them down as quickly as possible to reach the black increments on their HP so they drop some healing orbs, and healing devices seem to all share a global CD in my experience, so they're effectively one use per alert.
Once again, it's your choice if you want to do zero DPS while running away or zero DPS while running back to the fight.
I guess that's one way of looking at it. My perspective is that I'd like to do all my DPS all the time, and if it's just a question of laying off a rotation (or laying off button spams since this game doesn't have rotations) it's not a big deal, but it's not often that someone else is there to pick up the slack.
It's not that people despise it, it's that this game isn't built around that theory. Don't rely on something that barely exists in this game.
Sure, and I really am starting to get that. I appreciate your being so patient with me, along with a few other people. I really wasn't looking to be abrasive or anything, just trying to get my point across from a perspective that you guys might not hear a lot.
Also as an aside, it's really cool to see a forum mod engaging in game discussion this in depth with lowly F2P players. That's not something you really see in my experience. So thanks for even participating. This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder why Cryptic staff seems to have a sort of bad rep in this community.
Thats not what the combat logs said. There is also a difference between kiting and running away. You see in this game theres a thing called Combat Logs. Thats how you can tell how others play. You have CC or an aggro causing advantage on one of your main attacks.
You also heard a little roar noise and seen the little red stripes. Thats agro.
If the combat logs said something different, then it wasn't me. My build is posted here. I really have no reason to lie about slotting tank advantages, lol. It would defeat every point I've been trying to get across in the thread. Also, the only attacks I use are spamming RT and SR when it's up. Pay no attention to the forced melee filler skills.
Also as an aside, it's really cool to see a forum mod engaging in game discussion this in depth with lowly F2P players. That's not something you really see in my experience. So thanks for even participating. This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder why Cryptic staff seems to have a sort of bad rep in this community.
Biff's not a Cryptic employee. He's just a player like the rest of us who incidentally volunteered to to be a moderator.
If you held the aggro in melee range I wouldn't be able to even if I wanted to.
If you're gonna take that stance, I expect you to never complain about melee dudes using knockbacks. Otherwise, "You should have known I was going to Haymaker him behind the warehouse and positioned yourself accordingly!"
If the combat logs said something different, then it wasn't me. My build is posted here. I really have no reason to lie about slotting tank advantages, lol. It would defeat every point I've been trying to get across in the thread. Also, the only attacks I use are spamming RT and SR when it's up. Pay no attention to the forced melee filler skills.
Pay no attention to the forced melee filler skills?
May I ask why? LOL thats where you have the CC isnt it. I'ma on to your HOOHAA mister >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If you're gonna take that stance, I expect you to never complain about melee dudes using knockbacks. Otherwise, "You should have known I was going to Haymaker him behind the warehouse and positioned yourself accordingly!"
Hah, knockbacks don't tend to bug me, especially if they're used as interrupts. I use acrobatics in combat so I'm not picky about mob positioning.
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I play a control based toon with a ton of debuffs and I play in the healer role. So people see that damn cross and are asking me why the heck I am not healing them. I am Telepathy/Dark/and other junk. I am FF, so yes I could take a heal, but my other toon is a healer type forcefielder.
But I wanted something thematic and different. I still do a lot on alerts, missions etc. Even if subtle. But my damage is good.
So it's not just tanks. It's the icons. They mislead people.
Now is someone is playing celestial you see some heals, then definately they should be doing their job.
Old time member. I miss NERF :eek:
or my favourite, entire group is hybrid or ranged dps.... "res please" "can someone res me"
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You like stealing MY aggro? Not on MY watch!
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"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
The problem is that the structure of the game hasn't conformed to this. Archetypes WILL fail without a trinity, and the que system pulls people randomly instead of based on role.
This could be partially fixed by allowing people to que as Tank/Heal/DPS and launching only when the first two are filled at minimum. This comes with other problems though.
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Yea. Let Archetypes queue in their own Alerts.
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And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Perhaps in some limited circumstances, but overall...not really. With the exception of some very specific fights trinity is unnecessary for ATs too. FF may have an easier time without trinity play due to greater availability of self heals, but ATs can manage just fine (and some ATs are better built than some of the FF out there).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
OTOH, I did once tank an Alert with an Inferno - somebody was healing me the entire time, so I was able to pour out flame like a rocket exhaust and have my health bar stay above 50%.
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Sounds like me when I do alerts. :biggrin: Knowing I have a dedicated healer I will dish out all my DPS as I can and tank as a squishy because I trust some of my friends who heal me that I run with.
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One of my characters is on the other end of that. She is a healer, but runs in hybrid role, and all the heals are short range, so people have no idea that they're supposed to come running to me when their health gets low...I swear half the time when I do manage to get to them to heal them they're like "huh? why did my health fill up? bug?"
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Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Basically what I've taken from all that I have read, which is at least a few posts per page, is that:
1.) The icons are misleading.
2.) Free form negates the need for roles, PERIOD, with tons of examples as to how builds can be made that perform multiple functions or perform functions while in roles that do not indicate said function.
3.) Archetypes are an afterthought in this game, so even though you might buy a ranged DPS, or a healer, or a tank, there's no guarantee that you will be able to perform that role, even if that's what you paid for when you bought it (so, I buy DPS, I don't expect to have to tank, etc.)
4.) Dumping aggro via dropping DPS via blocking in content that is often on a timer is considered advisable by some people. Even though there are alarmingly high fail rate statistics for said content as it is. Every second I block because a tank doesn't have aggro is a second that misses my dmg output, which could be a second, or cumulative stack of seconds-difference between succeeding and not succeeding in the fight.
As an aside to this bullet point, blocking doesn't do much in the way of aggro wiping. Travel powers don't either. Because as soon as I start attacking, assuming I survive, in a dire circumstance, the very long gap between offensive and defensive posture, the aggro will come right back to me anyways, in my experience.
5.) Buy healing devices. Yes, I have stacks of healing devices in my device tray. Unfortunately, they're pretty borked as far as potions go, since they're on a global cooldown that's quite egregious given the fast paced nature of combat in the game.
6.) Run away with your travel power. If I'm running, I'm not killing. In the 'holy trinity' games that you all seem to despise so much, I never have to run away. I'm durable enough to do my job, if I need to dump aggro I lay off my chain for a minute (note: an MMO minute. As in, about a second, second and a half) and the tank promptly picks it right back up. No risk of defeat, no holding block for minutes at a time, only to re-incur boss wrath and hold it until the cycle repeats. I don't play games to base my strategy around death, or not attacking for long periods of time. As you should all know as gamers, a half second to two seconds is a long time to not be attacking- it can be the difference between digits in a DPS total.
But I feel the need to close this list off by pointing out that it's really not a big deal. Yes, there's some funky stuff going on. My standards are also probably a little high. Overall though, it's all good on my end. I still like it here and really didn't mean to stir up such a controversy. Just sort of my two cents.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Not sure what you mean by the last part- I've seen that used to imply that someone isn't good at playing games at all and it serves as an effective deflection tool, but I've also seen it used to mean that someone is not interested in raiding or end game, doesn't like math, etc. I don't know you so I don't really know which interpretation to apply. Bolded for emphasis.
Lots of flailing arms , running away, watching you die and headdesking occurred.
The combat logs were funneh mind
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I do not queue as part of a pre-made.
I do not run min/max builds.
I am not a particularly great player.
I honestly don't know what to tell you OP. Your experiences do not match my own. I have played both ATs and FF without running into the problems you seem to encounter frequently. Perhaps I am very lucky. Perhaps you are particularly unlucky.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If this is actually the case, Terrathraun, the blame is completely on you and you might want to respec.
If you're taking Crippling Challenge and/or Challenging Strikes for their damage debuffs, you should know that those powers increase your threat - basically taunting the enemy to attack you. You gaining aggro cannot be blamed on other tanks.
I thought that the, "many hundreds," portion of my post was a mention of my experience. That was my intention when including it.
I do not know what mistakes, if any, he is making without his build. Even within an ATs limitations the choices available can have a huge impact (for good or ill). If Nepht is correct about him using either CC or CS then its an easy fix. I'll even chip in for his respec if needed.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Apparently he studied the FF system without ever using it.
He said that earlier in the thread he made a statement that he knows all .
He obviously knows better than us ^.^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Handle: @drgmstr
"Embrace your dreams"
Come Check Out My PRIMUS Database Page!
Yeah, I took CC on an early iteration of my Archery main. At the time I was looking for a way to add some group synergy to my build. I only used the attack with CC when another player in my group was taking too much heat. I would tap my CC carrier and trigger Masterful Dodge, hopefully giving the other player time to recover. I did Nemcon a lot (approx a hundred times a week) back then, and PvPd regularly so it was worth it (to me).
Doing Nemcon that frequently meant meeting other regulars for the lair and a couple of us ended up doing the same thing. We would take turns trading aggro back and forth. When one got low on health the other would take it with CC. Worked great even if we were both running pure DPS builds.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
One could also say that when "just starting out" it's probably not a solid move to start critisicising other people for causing his own failures...
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
That right there is strategy. I can admit I took CC on one of my DPS toons only because at the time I was lvling up with a friend and we had the idea of them be the main tank and I was a off tank. When they get low on health I would nab hate away from him and give him time to recover before he takes it back. Worked great when there is a lack of a healer in the group.
Handle: @drgmstr
"Embrace your dreams"
Come Check Out My PRIMUS Database Page!
14-15 times per day? How did you find the time? :eek:
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Thats easy Nemcom can be done in under 15 mins ^.^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Didn't start out with that kind of frequency, but gradually got the time better and better so I could get in more runs per play session. It was one of the few places where I could count on getting a group together (I really prefer group play) for a level 40 instance without a lot of standing around waiting. Plus Dr D has always been one of my favorites.
A couple of things that can help one have more time to spend in a game:
1) Marry a gamer.
2) Write your own work schedule.
3) Recognize that caffeine > sleep :biggrin:
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
You're never guaranteed a tank in a pug. If you don't see a tank, and you don't want to dump aggro, your choice is then "do zero DPS while blocking" and "do zero DPS while running back to the fight."
Having all three trinity roles matters less than having a group of competent players. If you're stealing aggro constantly on a team, and there's other competent players in your team, someone should be able to pull aggro from you while you block. Or heal you, or tank that threat, depending on what they do. Some friends I run alerts with, if I stop my DPS for a couple seconds, someone else will pick up the aggro already. So I can pop a heal, use a potion, whatever, then start the DPS again.
Not directly, as a mechanic, no. But for every second that you're blocking damage and not generating aggro, you're allowing others to catch up to your aggro, effectively "dumping" some aggro. You're basically keeping yourself alive while others pick up the threat.
Once again, it's your choice if you want to do zero DPS while running away or zero DPS while running back to the fight.
It's not that people despise it, it's that this game isn't built around that theory. Don't rely on something that barely exists in this game.
A long discussion doesn't mean controversy... just a discussion going on.
That's my damage, not aggro advantages. You might have noticed that if I did die I got the aggro back right away, not from crippling challenge or anything but from damage output. And yes I kite. I'm ranged DPS, that's how you play ranged DPS.
Ok, personal question if you don't mind : do you have Crippling Challenge and/or Challenging Strikes on one or more of your powers?
Thats not what the combat logs said. There is also a difference between kiting and running away. You see in this game theres a thing called Combat Logs. Thats how you can tell how others play. You have CC or an aggro causing advantage on one of your main attacks.
You also heard a little roar noise and seen the little red stripes. Thats agro.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Where you in that alert to Finn?
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
On behalf of melee characters everywhere, I'd like to ask you to stop doing that.
That's fair, I mentioned this in another thread but I really like how TOR handles their ques- you que for a role, so you select damage/tank/healer and it matches teams up. I guess it wouldn't translate to this game with the abundance of Tankmages but I think there has to be some way to make something similar work.
Healers in this game definitely seem to have their act together overall. When I get in a que with a healer it's basically guaranteed smooth sailing. I know DPS works well since I know I do a bunch of damage, and every so often someone will pull aggro off of me, either through tanking or DPS- it's actually hard to tell which now since I know the roles are essentially meaningless.
Oh I get that completely, I was speaking anecdotal. Most of the time when I block the bosses will still stay on me until I'm dead, and all the other times I block and I pull the aggro right back as soon as I start attacking again. I also like to gun them down as quickly as possible to reach the black increments on their HP so they drop some healing orbs, and healing devices seem to all share a global CD in my experience, so they're effectively one use per alert.
I guess that's one way of looking at it. My perspective is that I'd like to do all my DPS all the time, and if it's just a question of laying off a rotation (or laying off button spams since this game doesn't have rotations) it's not a big deal, but it's not often that someone else is there to pick up the slack.
Sure, and I really am starting to get that. I appreciate your being so patient with me, along with a few other people. I really wasn't looking to be abrasive or anything, just trying to get my point across from a perspective that you guys might not hear a lot.
Also as an aside, it's really cool to see a forum mod engaging in game discussion this in depth with lowly F2P players. That's not something you really see in my experience. So thanks for even participating. This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder why Cryptic staff seems to have a sort of bad rep in this community.
If you held the aggro in melee range I wouldn't be able to even if I wanted to.
If the combat logs said something different, then it wasn't me. My build is posted here. I really have no reason to lie about slotting tank advantages, lol. It would defeat every point I've been trying to get across in the thread. Also, the only attacks I use are spamming RT and SR when it's up. Pay no attention to the forced melee filler skills.
Biff's not a Cryptic employee. He's just a player like the rest of us who incidentally volunteered to to be a moderator.
I read that as accidentally. Haha.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
If you're gonna take that stance, I expect you to never complain about melee dudes using knockbacks. Otherwise, "You should have known I was going to Haymaker him behind the warehouse and positioned yourself accordingly!"
Pay no attention to the forced melee filler skills?
May I ask why? LOL thats where you have the CC isnt it. I'ma on to your HOOHAA mister >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Hah, knockbacks don't tend to bug me, especially if they're used as interrupts. I use acrobatics in combat so I'm not picky about mob positioning.
I don't have it anywhere I don't think, I'm just saying that I don't use those skills. You're welcome to re-check your combat logs.
Course you dont the bad guys just chase you around the area for no reason at all my mistake ^.^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
It's damage output. They aggro to high dmg. I have fraps files I can upload for you if you'd like.
I can do massive dps without kiting and without aggro.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!