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Calling all competent Tanks!
Dear tanks,
I know that some of you are brilliant. I've witnessed you in action. Please, bear witness to my testimony, and pass it on to your tank brethren.
My name is Glop, and I am a DPS character.
I do an average of 2k damage per button press in an alert. This might not seem like a lot, and it's certainly not high end. But it's significant enough to pull all of the boss and mob aggro in alerts nine out of ten times, for the whole time, unless or until I die. Which brings me to my point, dying, and why it's your job to make sure I don't...
I see shields over people's names, and they don't have the aggro. If you chose to build a "DPS Tank," my limited experience with this game tells me that you've done it wrong- if your DPS was better than mine, you'd have the aggro, not me.
Please tank if you're a tank. Please tell your tank friends to tank, if they're playing tanks. I've never had to resort to begging tanks to tank before, but I like this game enough to give it a shot.
Charge into the spawns before me!
WHY AM I ALWAYS FORCED TO SOAK ALPHAS? Tanks should not be skittish!
It's your job to get there FIRST, and live to tell the tale, while people like me destroy your hostile surroundings.
Bonus points if you don't take an extra minute or two to load, so you can do your job even faster.
The longer I live, the faster the alert is over.
You are a TANK!!! You should be basking in the glory of soaking damage, while I bask in the glory of dealing damage. Please tanks, just do it.
-Glop
I know that some of you are brilliant. I've witnessed you in action. Please, bear witness to my testimony, and pass it on to your tank brethren.
My name is Glop, and I am a DPS character.
I do an average of 2k damage per button press in an alert. This might not seem like a lot, and it's certainly not high end. But it's significant enough to pull all of the boss and mob aggro in alerts nine out of ten times, for the whole time, unless or until I die. Which brings me to my point, dying, and why it's your job to make sure I don't...
I see shields over people's names, and they don't have the aggro. If you chose to build a "DPS Tank," my limited experience with this game tells me that you've done it wrong- if your DPS was better than mine, you'd have the aggro, not me.
Please tank if you're a tank. Please tell your tank friends to tank, if they're playing tanks. I've never had to resort to begging tanks to tank before, but I like this game enough to give it a shot.
Charge into the spawns before me!
WHY AM I ALWAYS FORCED TO SOAK ALPHAS? Tanks should not be skittish!
It's your job to get there FIRST, and live to tell the tale, while people like me destroy your hostile surroundings.
Bonus points if you don't take an extra minute or two to load, so you can do your job even faster.
The longer I live, the faster the alert is over.
You are a TANK!!! You should be basking in the glory of soaking damage, while I bask in the glory of dealing damage. Please tanks, just do it.
-Glop
Post edited by glop#4587 on
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Aggro mechanics are funky. I have a melee dps archetype and she will out aggro. I have the impression that freeforms on hybrid role with Devour Essence take and hold aggro the best, but i'm not sure.
What i do know, is that the threat generation from the tank role should be increased dramatically.
Exactly.
Because if you see a shield over someone's head, it DOES NOT MEAN that they are a tank.
This is why I turn off the icons over people's heads. Because it DOES NOT WORK.
The icon 'system' is ONLY based on what Role you're currently in. That's it. It does NOT care about your passive, your powers, if you have Crippling Challenge, ANYTHING. It's JUST your Role.
Blame Cryptic on this very extremely poorly designed system, not the player.
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If you do alot of damage and you're a freeform....take something like Evasive Maneuvers. Also, protip, disable those stupid icons overtop of player's heads. They give misleading information.
This is the Post-On-Alert Era. You bring the success to the table. You bring the mitigation to the table. You bring the damage to the table. If someone else does this as well then consider yourself lucky and go with it. If not, then it falls upon you to carry the others and hope for the win. :cool:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
It seems unfair to current, and potential future team mates to enter a combat role that you're not equipped or willing to handle unless you're capable of performing said role. The HP cushion of switching to Tank role might seem like a benefit if you don't know or don't want to know how to avoid death patches or cone attacks, but the game does give ample warning for both of the above, neither of which require being in a Tank role as a non-tank to survive in my experience.
Though I will point out that Alerts do seem to scale unfairly to low level players, something I pointed out in my first ever post here, along with role issues, that the Dev's seem to be addressing.
See, I don't get the era's, so silly me. I believe in cooperation playing a role in cooperative content- a huge one at that, being as it's the driving force behind said content...
(In normal game environments... But customizing my gear is pretty sweet...)
My least favorite icon is the little gold cross for Support. It's not fun when your Inventor gets yelled at for not doing enough healing - an Inventor doesn't really get much healing, aside from possible healbots at lvl 23 or so.
Bottom line is, don't believe the icons. They tell half the story at best. And this game doesn't really do the trinity thing well, either.
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Also, 2 minor points.
1. As a LvL 40 with Night Warrior as a passive invest in some Dodge/Avoidance gear if you haven't already and maybe some healing items/devices.
2. If your 1st attack every alert is Shadow Strike...expect to merge with the pavement.
Edit: Your ideals on cooperative play are nice but unless you're forming a premade for alerts I wouldn't hold my breath. Expect the worst, prepare for the worst, and be pleasantly suprised if the worst isn't there waiting for you with a bib, fork, and knife.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
It's perfectly possible for a tank to be conceived in the game - but they're likely not going to be an archtype. These tanks usually look quite odd, running in hybrid role, doing pretty sizable damage, running a lot of self-heal, and utilizing the hell out of skills like Challenging Strikes and Crippling Challenge.
Mostly true, considering what I've said above. This is because DE pretty much can do all of this to a single target - It supplies a steady stream of self-healing, can be statted to have crippling challenge, hits hard, and above all, hits fast - each tick of that attack applies a ridiculous amount of threat to the target.
Also, just use Devour Essence...it's the "I win button" of tanking if you want it. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
We've seen a couple posts here and I'm honestly uncomfortable addressing it. I have yet to encounter another MMO with a full-on platter of PAY-2-TANKMAGE! as an option.
As a player of the genre, it'd be very disturbing in a more competitive game, but since it's all in good fun here in a casual environment it doesn't quite bug me at the same time.
Personally, I opt not to PAY-2-TANKMAGE. I play a ranged Rogue class that I bought from the store.
Yeah my build is fairly solid for not having Legion gear and only 2/3 Vigilante pieces, according to THE FORUMS. (VALIDATION)
My first attack does tend to be Shadow Strike, but I do buy healing devices to augment my pavement eating.
Said eating of pavement doesn't tend to happen after alert alphas that I take as it does during sustained combat wherein the rest of my crew is useless and doesn't DPS/tank/heal me fast enough for me to eat dropped healing orbs to stomp said boss into the pavement without missing a beat.
I kind of meant figuring it out beyond "do moar damage, duuurr" that aggro seems to be stuck on in this game. Even the challenge skills work only so much.
A basic understanding on how CC and CS mechanics go a long way. The general thing to do is to be consistent with keeping CS as buffed as possible to make up for CC's 10 second cooldown to keep threat up, so having both a CC and CS attack is an absolute must for dedicated tanking.
I get all the candies free.
And i'm not a mage, i'm a cowboy.
So let's not bring the Pay2Win here.
I just punch you with my pistols in your balls if you do.
And grab aggro that way.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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Oh I wasn't trying to be confrontational, just funny. Strike 1?
Still, I think you know what I mean.
-sidekicking :
in Alerts, we're all set on lvl 30 but while a lvl 20 is going to get a buff, a lvl 40 is going to get a reduction. It doesn't end here as the damage reduction is bigger than the buff which means that a lvl 20 deals more damages than a lvl 40 in an Alert... always (considering they've the same stats, same damage output scaling, etc...).
-pre/post Alert changes :
With Alerts, the specialisations had been implemented and provided mutliple ways to deal more damages, a lot more of damages while nothing had been implemented to increase threat generation for the tanks. So don't be surprised to hear about DPS/Tank because this is the only way to generate enough threat and to hold aggro in Champions game mechanics. In Champions, a pure tank can not generate enough threat to hold aggro from dpsers.
Knowing these and considering them, you may reconsider the way you do your Alerts.
Don't be shy to ask for Alert team in Zone chat, there are some friendly players and they'll gladly help you, either with a support character -to keep you alive- or with a tank -to hold aggro.
Feel free to tell us how it goes if you try to ask for Alert teams in Zone chat, ok?
Is no one else depressed by the amount of insight and cleverness that's mostly over my head that it takes to be a tank in this game? I don't play tanks. I play DPS. I want the other people who are tanks, by their own choice- whether through role or class- to tank.
Tanking with DPS is EXTREMELY counter-intuitive because DPS is different than tank! I play a DPS character, once again, that can withstand decent aggro for what it is- but cannot realistically tank bosses independently that are meant for an entire group over the duration of an encounter. I DO DAMAGE, YOU TAKE IT- LET'S ALL DO OUR JOBS HERE, M'KAY?
I do not P2TM. The option to do so kinda depresses me, but simultaneously seems like it'd be a lot of fun. Shrug.
Also, as Finn humorously pointed out, it's nowhere near P2Win. It's just that alot of us played before F2P arrived, had toons with themes/concepts/builds they liked, and found the very notion of going froob to be undesirable. Although some have done this and had decent success with the ATs so that avenue is possible if you prepare for it correctly(which, IMO, you appear to have done moreso than I do on alot of my alts since I usually just go SCR Primaries, Unity Drop Purple Secondaries, and a few stacks of Hardy Stouts). Sure, you can shell out 50 bucks and maybe win some pretty legacy devices but they're not entirely necessary. I've seen plenty of people who were horrible before shelling out 50 bucks for devices, get all decked out, and still suck. There are also devices and such obtainable in the game for either Globals or just the effort of farming.
That being said, as an example. I have an ice tank that runs in Hybrid most of the time and, with the proper advantages on powers, I can reliably tank. Now if I see a suicidal Infernal Toon I may have to switch roles to compensate for them but it still works. In that case I "chose" to be the tank but in most cases, in my experience, most of my toons end up tanking in alerts reguardless of build/role unless I choose to MAKE someone else tank with an aggro wipe.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
That's ok with me- I have no experience playing tanks in this game or any other game. I just see a profound lack of vigilance, basically complacency, amongst the folks whose job it is to tank in this game.
The rationalizing that I've seen thus far in the thread is that Tankmages (if you're uncomfortable with the term, sorry- but that's what they are) who simultaneously deal and soak exorbitant damage are the way to tank. Personally I'd call that a game imbalance that shouldn't have made it past alpha.
Some people say that tanking is taking the threat from the target and putting it on you, either via threat generation or sheer DPS.
Others say being a tank is simply having a lot of health or being difficult to kill.
Both sides are right. However, unlike most games where you simply 'Select class, play tank' you actually have to know HOW, to tank here.
Go ahead. Ask a couple people around. Chances are most of them don't know what Threat or Challenging Strikes/Crippling Challenge do. The game doesn't explain it in any way, aside from the phrase when selecting a 'Tank' archetype, such as the ever popular 'Behemoth'.
'You've got some strong close combat powers designed to damage and knock down your opponents. You can take a lot of damage which you can turn around and use against your enemies. When you're teamed up with other heroes, a lot of them will be depending on you to soak up enemy fire so charge in and start attacking!' Oh, so that's what a tank is? A guy that can not die?
Apparently, according to the game, yes. How do you do this? No clue, at least, to the newbloods.
You must also consider that Alerts are...Probably not going to be the cream of the crop each time. In fact, the average player, is a ball of yak meat. Big, smelly, and doesn't really do much aside from make situations unpleasant. Remember to consider this, and try asking friends around for a team.
As well, do know that those with the 'Bolt' icon that are obtaining threat might be using a certain Spec tree skill called Bulwark which gives an immense gain to threat. Hybrid tanking is actually really good, as you don't have to worry about energy reduction due to the Protector role as well as having increased heals from the Hybrid role. I use it myself, due to my main being a heal based tank.
Just remember, that Alerts are not a pristine environment and won't make for viable grounds 95% of the time.
Deliciously nutritious!
But it's not anybody's "JOB" to tank for you in alerts. In my experience, most people can barely use their Energy Builder. Although, yes, there are issues with the On Alert System....lots of them.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I'm new to this game. I've been around but a couple of months, but I still understand intrinsic MMO mechanics. Tanking is generating and soaking aggro- that is, you earn the attention of monster spawns and are capable of managing said attention, sometimes in conjunction with a healer.
My issue is that I play DPS, and I find myself doing a tank's job, more often than not successfully, but sometimes unsuccessfully. This is a problem- sure, I can de facto tank, but it's not my job. It's the tank's job.
I like to PUG, it's how I experience games. I have someone from my crew who plays this game with me casually but hasn't gotten into it much.
Once again, a crying shame that this is all probably great info, and yet is also more than likely a convoluted explanation to a very simple concept- whether you blame the players, the Dev's or a combination of both- Tanks should inherently be able to tank, and should be doing so.
Yeah, the woes of free to play and dungeon ques. But every other game tends to battle through it more often than not in my experience. Shrug.
My job is to do DPS and I do it. If you're a tank, I expect you to tank... Shrug.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Mitigation and knowing when NOT to attack is all apart of strong team work.
Also the icons don't mean anything except for specific stat improvements. None of them really effect agro to a satisfiable degree.
Forget it, his job is just to teach us what's a tank job and he can't hear anything else.
I have a Behemoth AT w/ Challenging strikes and Crippling Challenge advantage who can hold aggro very well if a spam Shockwave, but when a FF or any AT deals any high damage the aggro goes to them constantly.
If you are so ticked on getting killed, why not change the survivability of your build? Like get a selfl-heal, shield or something. I used to have a high DPS FF build, however, seeing that I usually do missions solo I change it to have more survivability. It can even stand its ground against gravitar(if i'm careful).
EDIT: Whoops! I just read that you're a Night Avenger AT. Meaning you can't switch powers. Well, being a Night AT is a real pain now since Throwing Blades got nerfed. You can try getting a fast tp to run around while dpsing. Although that will annoy your teammates and the tank will have a hard time aggroing the mob.
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What annoys me is that the vast majority of dps type players have one track minds that say "DPS NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF THEY ARE ON ME! DPS UNTIL I DIE!" And then they blame is on the tank for losing aggro.
Personally, I don't have that problem, as I've never had a dps player pull off me. Ever.
It is NOT the tank's job to ensure you live. That is YOUR responsibility.
Now if you do manage to pull and you still think it's the tank's job to not lose aggro, then BLOCK, and find a way to LOSE aggro.
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From what you have described you are NOT actually playing with tanks. If you are not playing with tanks its probably a bit off to be complaining that they are not doing their job. Right now you are playing with other DPSers, perhaps even the occasional support character, and are complaining that they are not tanking.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Ok...but.....why would you even use that role if you don't plan on being tanky/defensive?
You lose damage from it, you gain extra threat generation, you lose healing from it.....so why be in a role and have powers that are maximal in a different role like hybrid support ranged or melee damage?
Its not like support role where people take it to min max for self heals and don't heal people around them....its tank roll.
Damage loss for a tiny bit of hp doesn't seem worth it if you're not gonna use the roll to grab aggro why use it? All of the defensive passives can be used in hybrid, so if you don't want to be the tank, put it on hybrid roll.....logic....
Not everyone has a choice in the matter (the choice about subscribing aside of course). Some people just want a character that doesn't die easily... or perhaps are inspired by some of the tougher characters in the source material.
Edit: I am referring to the inability to choose role for an AT.
Actually it is more like, "DPS NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF THEY ARE ON ME! DPS TIL THEY DIE!"
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If you are in an alert and see the tank standing at the stairs hitting the boss with some form of ranged ability, there is likely a reason for that. If you charge at the boss before it has a chance to get to said tank and are refusing to help the tank move the boss back to the stairs, then tanking said boss is your job.
Signed,
a tank who is tired of dps who think their 'leet' dps means something in an alert.
At any rate if you are talking about alerts, it does seem lately that there are fewer tanks in alerts the days. As previous players have mentioned, with the ff system and to some smaller extent spec choices and such made by at's, don't assume something is a tank because it's displaying the role icon you think a tank should.
Lots of tanks play in hybrid. With Bulwark specced. They can hold aggro.
Lots of tanks play other than hybrid. Without Bulwark. They can hold aggro.
Join an sg with tanks who do alerts or pug with the tanks you do see. Problem solved.
I grabbed a heal and now I can semi-sorta-off-tank because I can crit heal with Conviction and keep wailing on their face.
Is it the best way to do it? No, and I know this.
Why do I let it go? Because I know that I'll still get threat back in three hits regardless, so I try to do what I can before I drop.
I really don't know what I'm trying to say with this, aside from that there is no trinity here.
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Then you have to consider, how many tanks there are in game that actually still alert, I know my "tank" only does it very rarely. (She runs in Hybrid Role, with Invuln, but can tank if necessary, so really Black Diamond is just a little tough.)
With the options of the FF system people can tank with support passives.
I don't know how much this has been stressed but the icons are deceptive.
I've been in an alert where the Tank Role toon told me to "stay back cause with your squishy Electric Form Passive" I'll get creamed. He died, and I "tanked" the alert.
I think at this point in time DPS toons tend to build for utter destruction or destruction with sizeable defense.
I know that with my DPS toons I tried to have a decent amount of defense so the healer can get to me or I can heal up and another DPS takes over for a period of time. As a DPSer you need to watch your HP and what you are pulling. No point running into a large mob and spamming SUPAARLAZZAARDPZ attack and expecting the tank to come in after you and save you. Similar way to how some DPS players scream at healers for not killing themselves to save them, when in actual fact if the healer dies who or what is going to save them?
I think roles like healer and tank, when players run them, they require other players to think logically rather than zerg everything. If everything is comming toward you in full force, don't continue firing get to a healer, use the... *gasp*..block mechanic and regulate how much HP you have and may loose in the process so you know when to turtle up.
Thing is, players generally in my experience can tank with whatever the hell they like, I am sure a vast majority of people who have posted here can tank alerts, instances dead easy without touching Tank Role or Hybrid Role.
My own experience has been varied, whilst I understand the frustration of dying in an alert due to bad "tanks", there have been some phenomenal tanks in alerts who have shrugged off 4 DPS players firing at the boss and never allowed the boss to focus on the DPSers, whilst surviving.
Ask around and some tanks, real ones, will surprise you with how good they are, I speak from experience, I was leveling my lvl 39 DPS and needed a tank badly, one came along and..well lol, I have never run a smoother bunch of alerts.
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Threat in this game comes mostly from DPS paired with Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes. Which also means that "tank" AT's are often falling short with keeping their threat, since they are easily outDPSed.
When I'm playing alerts on my Savage it almost always ends tanking the whole thing, though it's not even a tank oriented AT. Because of devour essence and ticks from bleeds on target. Thankfully this AT is sturdy enough to tank things.
The whole trinity system simply doesn't apply to CO.
Another thing are people playing DPS AT's with their attacks paired with Crippling Challenge. If you don't want to have aggro all the time, do not spam attacks with this advantage. It's right there in description for this advantage. If you are disregarding it, do not be surprised when everything starts chasing your glass cannon AT.
People are building DPS oriented tanks, or even buffing DPS of their tanking AT's because game is heavily oriented in favor of DPS. If you can't pull enough DPS, you are of no use in certain challenges. Like Ironclad/Duratok part of Forum Malvanum, for example. It's not a problem with players, not even with game system, rather with devs deciding to punish people for not having DPS oriented builds.
Raven checkmates thread.
This right here. I play quite a few tanks characters. I have yet to reach Caliga's level of tanking...yet (even ran with him in a Hi-Pan Alert)....
My thing is if I'm tanking for an entire party/team and somebody happens to pull the aggro away from me, I hope they can handle it. Because while ideally I'd be covering the entire team as far as being the most threatening to the mobs/bosses if it doesn't work out and a DPS draws the threat, well I've gotta make sure that the majority of the party is still covered and if possible take the threat back. But I'm not going to fight you for the threat...after all the survival of the group in general might be my "job". It is the "job" of the individual members to ensure their own survival. So if you zerg in front of the tank and get rolfstomped, maybe you should treat it as a learning experience...and I don't know wait for the Tank to start the danse macabre with the mobs first. If that doesn't work you can always bring your dance partners over to the Tank instead of just running away in general just bring them by the kite string and hand it over...
Dear Glop,
Welcome to Champions Online. Here, we do not create roles, we create characters. Congratulations on making a dps character that is dependent on others. I wish you luck in finding a group of people that you can consistently group with who you can depend on to fill roles the same way that you have chosen to. If you are unable to find such a group, then might I suggest that rather than trying to get the community to adapt to you, that you adapt to the community. I am confident that after you adapt your way of thinking, you will find the true joy of playing a glass cannon character, rather than the dps role.
Yours Truly,
Smoochan
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I was in a Harmon labs alert with a squishy electric (wondering if my dps was really that good), 3 other 40s and a 20 something I think. I died in the Warlord fight, I was doing more DPS and Warlord went for me in pref. So yeah had to sit that one out but on the bright side I musta been doing good DPS or at least better than the other 3.
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You will drop threat.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
You can't actually tell if someone is a tank. 'Role' doesn't mean someone is that role, it's a mechanical thing -- someone in ranged attack mode might be built as a tank, someone in defensive mode could be built to damage.
Aggro is everyone's job. If you keep getting aggro away from the tank, part of it is your fault for not working with the tank. Ie: start getting aggro? STOP ATTACKING.
But, again, this only works if you KNOW someone is a tank.
This is why pugs are painful if you actually want to integrate your play with other people, and why pretty much nobody tanks anymore (I used to, gave it up)
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There's a natural ebb and flow to DPS and threat. Against a cosmic or raid boss, there's plenty of time to de-aggro and still feel like you're contributing. On the other hand, I've been in Dockside Dustups where my attack chain consisted of "Gigabolt, Lightning Arc, Block until boss is down to 50% health and hope everybody else's collective DPS can finish in time". Then On Alert happened, and I discovered the joy of Power Armor Blast-Tanking.
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Reading out of date wikis and actually using a FF toon are two different things. I have one toon called Strange Dave he has a shield icon over his head. He does around 4000 dps a second.
Some FF's pick the "tank" role for the extra defense and health it gives. My best tank is a toon Called Mika that has a bullet over her head. Do you see what I am getting at here.
With FF roles icons mean nothing.
BUT I do think ATs plays should understand the role their toon has, they are playing a more traditional type of toon.
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