Wow, reading all this makes me really miss CoX's simple Taunt power. I was spoiled and am too used to just pointing and saying "C'mere!".
Or rather, "ARGHLBLBLARAGGLEGLE", which was somewhat annoying.
To be honest, I found the "c'mere!" gesture silly if the toon concept worked against it. I actually prefer a taunt without the gesture to imply that the toon is imposing by presence alone, enough so that enemies would consider it a high priority threat, which is cooler in my view.
Over in the Neverwinter side of the world. Their queue system wont even form up a party until it can place a tank and a healer in the group first. In that game a balanced party is more of a requirement for success. However, the end result is, all its done is made the queue wait times obscene.
So, the question is, problems aside. Why didn't they do that here? Sure, we could make the jokes that its due to the game getting no support, attention, or population to support it. But, I honestly feel, its just not needed here. And it was left out for that reason.
We don't need a perfect trinity group to succeed here. In fact, most would argue that the best groups would be 5 DPSers. Assuming 5 freeform ultimate tankmages couldn't be found.
This is not a game where roles have much meaning here. We are heroes and concepts, not tanks and healers. Is hulk Tank or DPS? Is Ironman Tank or DPS? Batman DPS or Controller?
We nerds can argue about this for days with no clear answer. And I believe part of the appeal to the game, weather intended or not, is that our characters can also be as nebulous and undefined in their own roles. My job, like anyone else here, is to punch or blast villains. You cant sum that up with simple roles like Tank or DPS.
To be honest, I found the "c'mere!" gesture silly if the toon concept worked against it. I actually prefer a taunt without the gesture to imply that the toon is imposing by presence alone, enough so that enemies would consider it a high priority threat, which is cooler in my view.
That's what Gauntlet and Taunt Auras were for.
Honestly, a good tank in CoH could hold aggro without ever touching the Taunt button 90+% of the time. I mostly saw it used by Brutes who were trying to steal aggro from others, so they could keel their Fury bars filled.
Not that any of that means anything to the non-CoH players on these forums.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
It's all in how you build. One of my best "tanks" runs in Ranged role with an offensive passive. But he's built to do that.
You have few options in that regard running a Night Avenger AT. By that same token, how many of the players you've PUG'd with are freeforms and how many AT's? You can't tell.
It seems from your comments that you might get more enjoyment from this game going Gold. There are literally tons of threads in this forum that could assist you in building the survivable DPS monster you wish to be.
It's all in how you build. One of my best "tanks" runs in Ranged role with an offensive passive. But he's built to do that.
You have few options in that regard running a Night Avenger AT. By that same token, how many of the players you've PUG'd with are freeforms and how many AT's? You can't tell.
It seems from your comments that you might get more enjoyment from this game going Gold. There are literally tons of threads in this forum that could assist you in building the survivable DPS monster you wish to be.
Totally off topic here and I am not flaming your one of the more sane people around here and I enjoy your posts. But someone has to say it. That girl in ur av looks like she has a MASSIVE zeppelin @_@"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
the little icons are not much use as someone pointed out,
I have a tank which runs in Ranged,
I have dps which run in support and have had to tank in it,
I have support who have had to tank in support,(can we all say spam BCR) becasue heals also get aggro.
I have had a ranged dps in support, with concentration- damage form, Aura of ebon darkness- damage passive, get told to start healing because the person looked at the icon above the picture and not whats under the picture.
WE don't use the trinity here, otherwise we would not have pugs. It's work with what you have,e.g. having an alert with FIVE ranged, FOUR tanks and 1 dps(boy did that one take a while), 2 dps and 3 heals- thats green sheild, heal ability and AoRP (one of the healers tanked)
Pack some healing items, get ready to block to shed aggro. Learn to deal with other combinations of players and wait till you get a Level 7 tank(who actually did quite well) with your level 30 DPS.
Welcome to Champions Online, where the roles are made up and the aggro doesn't matter.
Whose Tank is it Anyway.
Dammit, where's that "like" button?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
There are people that build high end survivable builds but rather not hold aggro (not getting hit is a survivable plus after all). They are not there to tank they are just there to survive. Anyone with a shield on their portrait might need to try and tank if that is the role they are choosing to fulfill but then again they maybe in that role for the extra health and choose not to tank as well.
The way for you as a DPS should survive should be picking powers that drop your threat and aggro these powers are in need of a review for they do not work very well.
The other solution is well building up your defenses.
I just wanted to drop back in here to apologize for being so grumpy about this. My experience with the game has overall been very positive. I know a lot of you have probably been playing for years, but I'm personally just an MMO player who likes your game but isn't quite used to it yet.
There's probably a lot of people here that are used to free-forming, and that's great. If you can try to understand that this is a very unique system to Champions Online in a gaming genre that tends to use tried and true methods, hopefully you can sympathize a bit, and see that the "Archetype" system is the one I'm utilizing- I'm not deficient at building my skills, my skills were largely built for me to fill my role as DPS.
I totally get that a lot of people build outside their role to reach intended function, which to me does seem like poor game design. I know I was a bit contentious in my earlier posts and I genuinely am sorry for that, but I hope at least some of you can understand that when I see someone labeled 'Tank,' I expect them to be tanks. I feel like a stranger in a strange land right about now.
You'll get used to it, Terra. And after a while, you'll find the Trinity to be more of a straitjacket than a help. You'll start to wonder exactly why your mage in That Other Game has to be squishy, and why your tanking fighter can't use ranged DPS effectively too.
Once you've tasted freedom, it's hard to go back into the box, you know?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I see comments about how it's crucial for DPS players to take a threat-wipe power. I'd just like to mention that not all DPS-oriented ATs have that luxury.
DPS Tank here, and the only thing that's pulled aggro off me is other people with crippling challenge.
I'll also point something out here... being in a team means having a team effort. Meaning if you draw aggro--stop attacking. Herp-a-derp. The tank gets the chance to come over and pick up aggro again and regain a bit of threat.
This has happened since the dawn of time in MMO's. It's always been the responsibility on both ends. Not one or the other. :rolleyes:
You can also tell if your tank buddy is tanking or not if he uses crippling challenge or challenging strikes. Hell, if hes using both, hes golden. I've only had two people pull aggro off me in alerts or lairs in the past three months. Only one of them wasn't using crippling challenge and even then that was a struggle back and fourth.
Check the debuffs on the enemy and that should tell you if it's okay to let the DPS tap on full or if you even have a true tank in the group. Though I have to laugh, I didn't intend my build to be tanky at all. The moment you pick up crippling challenge and challenging strikes--it's pretty automatic from there.
Crippling Challenge means to pull aggro and change targets.
Challenging strikes is to maintain that aggro.
If you want a tank, just send me a message and I'll fill in. Someone has to provide a solution instead of bickering, right? :biggrin:
First off I often play as a tank and I can tell you if someone is laying the smackdown on the boss and I stop spamming CC/CS to rebuild my energy or block, they are gonna feel the heat from the boss no matter what I do. the holy trinity doesn't exist in this game even though they have roles. This games allows ppl to make what ever character you want. To add to that, 90% of this game is soloed, no one teams outside of doing lairs or PUG's which leads most of us to building characters that can support themselves. If you make a glass cannon then expect to fail or depend on a team to support you. It took me a while to break the old MMO ways but it is what it is.
First off I often play as a tank and I can tell you if someone is laying the smackdown on the boss and I stop spamming CC/CS to rebuild my energy or block, they are gonna feel the heat from the boss no matter what I do. the holy trinity doesn't exist in this game even though they have roles. This games allows ppl to make what ever character you want. To add to that, 90% of this game is soloed, no one teams outside of doing lairs or PUG's which leads most of us to building characters that can support themselves. If you make a glass cannon then expect to fail or depend on a team to support you. It took me a while to break the old MMO ways but it is what it is.
That part in bold doesn't always apply if someone's playing an archetype.
From what I see, at least some of the archetypes look to be pigeon-holed into a trinity role of some sort.
but for an AT, Karneeki sells healing items. I always carry them on any character without heals. As someone pointed out, if you have3 aggro as DPS. Stop and block. If you can shuffle over to a tank person at the same time even better.
There's also some devices which are useful as emergency sheilds. Demonic flesh graft, the one which gives you a black ball around you. eruption of course.
If it's any consolation,ev erytime I use a NA attack, I get aggro too. Big spike DPS will do that.
Doing ricochet throw on a line of mobs in an alert, is a shoot and run like heck tactic or with acrobatics. Block and jump back.
Terra, if you mail me in game on @cloudsatdawn with what stats you have, I can have a scavenge thru my spare legion gear for you. Also mods. I tend to give away spares.
I have some purple secondaries but they are mostly int/pre/str .
you're playing an AT, devices are your best friend, check the AH for Supernatural Possession, this halloween is right around the corner, when bloodmoon hits try to farm as many as you can to put onto your characters that don't have heals. This goes for dps as well as tank ATs. Freeform roles don't matter as much, although, if you don't want aggro being in tank role probably isn't a good idea.
The tank ATs have that role by default, so knowing that, also take note that a majority of them don't have self heals. So try to compensate for it with devices if you can. Its what I've done on all of my AT's and they've all been able to keep up with most freeforms with the exception of inventor which is just a bad rollout for an AT, since its pets don't deal significant damage, its heals are mediocre, and its damage without pets is also lacking. I'd go in on how they could have made inventor better but....another day.
I see comments about how it's crucial for DPS players to take a threat-wipe power. I'd just like to mention that not all DPS-oriented ATs have that luxury.
And it's yet another marvel of a questionable design on Cryptic's side. I remember very well that Blizzard mmo and how all DPS classes had a threat wipes, either faking own death, vanishing mid-combat or going invisible.
Here only three DPS AT have something like that, which is even more hilarious when you consider that two of those three AT are free ones.
I gather that Cryptic tried to introduce trinity in form of archetypes, but most of AT isn't even properly equipped for performing within this system.
And let's not forget AT tanks and their inability to keep aggro, pretty much only Behemoth and Invincible having a chance in this matter. Sometimes.
Honestly, I don't even know why roles are here. Whole game is built around the Hybrid role.
Because it provides options. Roles change your character quite a bit, and yet not so much that they restrict you. If the game is built around hybrid, then that's good because that's the middle point and it means that playing a dps role will feel like playing a dps role.
If anything though, I would say the game is build around dps roles. I say this because if you don't build squishy, you're ridiculously invincible, and if you do build squishy you're reasonably survivable.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It's DUMB to have icons over folks' head showing 'role' when role doesn't communicate anything useful.
What would be nice is if there were optional flags or (better yet) titles people could grab that could sum up what their intentions/build was designed around.
It's DUMB to have icons over folks' head showing 'role' when role doesn't communicate anything useful.
What would be nice is if there were optional flags or (better yet) titles people could grab that could sum up what their intentions/build was designed around.
I'm seriously considering that if I ever make a tank, I'll name him something with 'tank' in the name. Like 'Ima Tank' or 'Mechatank' or 'Tanky McTankington' or something.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I'm seriously considering that if I ever make a tank, I'll name him something with 'tank' in the name. Like 'Ima Tank' or 'Mechatank' or 'Tanky McTankington' or something.
"Rock McTankypants"?
For myself, I find the game runs more smoothly when I have the name display turned off, so I have absolutely no idea what icons are being displayed over the other players' heads. I just try to go be a superhero, ya know?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
People like the OP perfectly outline what it's like to be a Tank in this game.
You get no credit when you do your job good...but when you fail at holding aggro because of a messed up game mechanic...you get sh!+ on by the other players.
Good times.
I remember I had a super group teammate ask me if I was a Tank...which I said yes to, because I busted my **** trying to make sure I held aggro every single mission. Then they asked if I ever tanked Clarence, which I said no, because I never ran that event. They then said they don't consider anyone a tank unless they can tank clarence. So in their eyes, you could only be a tank if you played once a year content. It was absurd.
Being a Tank in CO is definitely not a rewarding job.
On a side note...I actually switched from Tank the role to Hybrid some time ago...and I hold aggro better.
People like the OP perfectly outline what it's like to be a Tank in this game.
You get no credit when you do your job good...but when you fail at holding aggro because of a messed up game mechanic...you get sh!+ on by the other players.
Good times.
I remember I had a super group teammate ask me if I was a Tank...which I said yes to, because I busted my **** trying to make sure I held aggro every single mission. Then they asked if I ever tanked Clarence, which I said no, because I never ran that event. They then said they don't consider anyone a tank unless they can tank clarence. So in their eyes, you could only be a tank if you played once a year content. It was absurd.
Being a Tank in CO is definitely not a rewarding job.
On a side note...I actually switched from Tank the role to Hybrid some time ago...and I hold aggro better.
Pretty much.
Another "issue" I ran into (issue in the sense that it's notable but not an issue for me) was that other than when playing with names I'm familiar with the vast majority of the time I pull aggro regardless of what type of character I'm playing. Amusing when I'm running a healer and someone who doesn't have aggro is screaming for a shield/heal...almost as amusing as glass cannons charging in early, getting dropped, then complaining when I grab aggro saying I should have grabbed it sooner only for me to tell them "Yo DPSer...you do realize I'm not using any taunt advantages over here right? RIGHT?"
I have a Behemoth AT as my tank for obvious reasons and I can hold hate fairly well with Crippling Challenge on Defensive Combo and Challenging Strike on both Thunderclap and Shockwave. It is only when I have a problem holding hate when other players are using those advantages or someone with a VERY high DPS. If they can take the hits, I won't complain...if its a DPS who took those advantages because of the debuffs and can't survive 5 seconds after grabbing hate, then the joke is on you buster. For high DPS I can steal hate back long enough if the dps'r took some hits and can get healed back up until they decided to steal hate again.
Sadly, my best tank by a long shot is a dpser. I've run tank specific characters, and just the raw dps output Chernobyl has, mixed with her ability to absorb or outheal anything that's thrown at her... My tanks never come close. Sure, they can survive, but I wiped alerts pretty consistently when I tried to tank, because heavily setting yourself up for tanking often means damage suffers. Especially considering a survivable self-heal build, or a quarry dodge stacked nuker.
I guess my only 2 cents to this are the following:
1: it's pretty sad that the ATs stick so heavily to the trinity concept, when none of the freeforms do. It either leaves you a hyper-squish dps threat magnet, a healer that nobody needs, or a tank that can by and large get totally demolished threat-wise (and often survivability, too) by even a half-focused freeform.
2: The main thing you ever wanna look at when considering if someone's a tank is the following: Are they running in first? Did they draw aggro? Are they holding it? Are they surviving? If so, ignore the symbol, you've got a tank on your hands. If not? They're probably either badly designed build for a subpar AT (I'm looking at you, glacier. Why people think you're a dps AT is so far beyond me...), or one of those people who realized death in this game carries literally no consequences.
OP, you're not mistaken in your throughts, that this is how it normally works. It took me like a year to figure out that pure-speccing for any role is basically asking for a beating. My healer is hovering on the brink of deletion, because it'd be faster to level another toon up to 40 than it'll be to farm her another retcon.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Based on my research though, I would assume that if one were to enter the Tank (Guardian) role, one should be prepared to fill the responsibilities of said role.
Having a little shield icon on your character is not a responsibility. It's an artifact of a system that completely misleads people who think this game is some kind of trinity setup.
Equally bad is the support icon, which makes people expect healing.
They should never have been called "roles" and they should never have had those icons.
A lot happens fast during an Alert and you have no idea how other people have built their characters and, if you are paying attention to your own character's contribution, very little idea of what others might be contributing.
I have just hit 40 on a fire tank. Every power that I could possibly cram threat enhancement onto, I spent the points. I took Sentinel Aura. I hit stuff hard and fast and grabbed as much aggro as possible. I tended to steal aggro from other tanks -- and yet sometimes a DPS or hybrid "role" character stole aggro from me anyway. That's just the way it goes. The only almost-guaranteed way to hold aggro for the duration is Devour Essence combined with AOE healing. I've done three characters with that now and I'm kind of over it. :P
Threat/aggro dropping powers need an update. Many of them don't work.
Oh and if there isn't a tank oriented character in the alert with you occasionally a good healer can keep the DPS up and I have healers that could act as a tank as well.
I'm seriously considering that if I ever make a tank, I'll name him something with 'tank' in the name. Like 'Ima Tank' or 'Mechatank' or 'Tanky McTankington' or something.
I've had alerts with
Tank and Spank- well named
Mr Tanky -well named
and yes Taco's Chernobyl who gets aggro and keeps it. usually in a noxious cloud
Although I've played the Trinity in a few games, being a comics guy, I never liked it that much. I always hated being restricted to either damage OR survivability. Now I know over time people learn how to make their glass cannon from a thicker, tougher grade of glass, and their tanks can put out some damage too... But with freeform we don't have those limitations, and what a joy it is!
My Main Tank - Big'Red has 2 basic builds: Hybrid with roughly 6500 hp and over 600 Str* with about 350 offense and defense each & Tank with over 16000 hp with 260ish str, with 300ish offense and almost 500 defense. I run with critical strike in a few powers but no crippling challenge. Regen, resurgence, bountiful chi resurgence, and masterful dodge ensure that I always have my bases covered for any threat. Alpha strikes, beta strikes, union strikes... it doesn't matter - you can barely see a momentarily dip on the health bar. Red just takes it and giggles a bit, while shaking her head sadly at the lack of damage from her adversaries.
She can hold aggro 99.5% of the time... but it's much easier if she can make the first attack. So I use kinetic darts as an 'energy builder' so I can get that first attack. This helps her gain and keep aggro, and she can do enough damage to be considered a DPS, although it's a lot of big spikes.
This is, for me, a lot more fun than having to have the trinity, because now I AM the trinity... Red's alerts might fail on rare occasions, but it's NEVER from team face-plants, or from excessive team member deaths.
But my DPS toons are similar, they can handle an alpha strike too, just with some prep and planning. But some of them do have the habit of picking up aggro against their will. I've had to build them to cope with this, knowing that they WILL BE SHOT AT. Better to be prepared than face-planted.
I see comments about how it's crucial for DPS players to take a threat-wipe power. I'd just like to mention that not all DPS-oriented ATs have that luxury.
Then you manage how much damage you do. If you keep stealing aggro, then hold block and let the tank pick it up.
I see comments about how it's crucial for DPS players to take a threat-wipe power. I'd just like to mention that not all DPS-oriented ATs have that luxury.
Ooze Tunneling costs 20 MCPD Recognition. It won't wipe the aggro, but it will stop you from dying before someone else can grab it.
Yes, it will lower your DPS, but so will any aggro wipe power. And it's available to any AT without spending any cash, or insane amounts of resources on devices.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Ooze Tunneling costs 20 MCPD Recognition. It won't wipe the aggro, but it will stop you from dying before someone else can grab it.
Yes, it will lower your DPS, but so will any aggro wipe power. And it's available to any AT without spending any cash, or insane amounts of resources on devices.
I could make the same argument with Teleport or any equivalent TP bought from the Z-store, but that means any DPS AT who decides out of thematic reasons or personal preference to not take any of those TPs are considered at a disadvantage.
Then you manage how much damage you do. If you keep stealing aggro, then hold block and let the tank pick it up.
Another alternative is don't manage how much damage you do, and use your death as a threat wipe. Remember kids, infinite continues in this game! ( unless you're doing Gravitar or Warlord in which case BLOCK LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT! :eek:). In fact, this sounds like a rather viable strategy considering the OP; I've often found that on my ATs, the only real thing I can do to shake aggro is get defeated, since often even if I slow down my damage for a few moments, I just get aggro back as soon as I touch an attack anyway.
There's no shame in being a berserker... heck, maybe that can be part of your character theme! I know I've had a few characters that I purposely played like they had a death wish, and it's not like in other games where the party gets mad at you and the raid leader yells at you and threatens to take your dragon points away if you do it again.
NOTE: Don't do this on Recruiting Drive, that's the only alert where you dying actually seems to matter.
Ooze Tunneling costs 20 MCPD Recognition. It won't wipe the aggro, but it will stop you from dying before someone else can grab it.
Yes, it will lower your DPS, but so will any aggro wipe power. And it's available to any AT without spending any cash, or insane amounts of resources on devices.
I could make the same argument with Teleport or any equivalent TP bought from the Z-store, but that means any DPS AT who decides out of thematic reasons or personal preference to not take any of those TPs are considered at a disadvantage.
There's always Teleport, which is free. If the dps in question uses it quickly enough they can zip out of danger and into safety faster than you can say blabberin blabberskithes.
Acrobatics and Super Speed can be used for this purpose too... there's no shame in running away and hiding behind a tree when you're made of paper; just make sure that you're running away, and not kiting, there is an important difference.
Shoot even flight can be used to help an archetype survive; if they're ranged. Just hover around your max range, dps to your hearts content, and when the boss turns their attention on you hold space bar until safe. If the boss is melee, then this works even better.
General message: Rather than relying on that trinity mechanic that those other games force you to rely on, why not indulge in that funderful travel power mechanic that this game provides?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Comments
To be honest, I found the "c'mere!" gesture silly if the toon concept worked against it. I actually prefer a taunt without the gesture to imply that the toon is imposing by presence alone, enough so that enemies would consider it a high priority threat, which is cooler in my view.
So, the question is, problems aside. Why didn't they do that here? Sure, we could make the jokes that its due to the game getting no support, attention, or population to support it. But, I honestly feel, its just not needed here. And it was left out for that reason.
We don't need a perfect trinity group to succeed here. In fact, most would argue that the best groups would be 5 DPSers. Assuming 5 freeform ultimate tankmages couldn't be found.
This is not a game where roles have much meaning here. We are heroes and concepts, not tanks and healers. Is hulk Tank or DPS? Is Ironman Tank or DPS? Batman DPS or Controller?
We nerds can argue about this for days with no clear answer. And I believe part of the appeal to the game, weather intended or not, is that our characters can also be as nebulous and undefined in their own roles. My job, like anyone else here, is to punch or blast villains. You cant sum that up with simple roles like Tank or DPS.
That's what Gauntlet and Taunt Auras were for.
Honestly, a good tank in CoH could hold aggro without ever touching the Taunt button 90+% of the time. I mostly saw it used by Brutes who were trying to steal aggro from others, so they could keel their Fury bars filled.
Not that any of that means anything to the non-CoH players on these forums.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
You have few options in that regard running a Night Avenger AT. By that same token, how many of the players you've PUG'd with are freeforms and how many AT's? You can't tell.
It seems from your comments that you might get more enjoyment from this game going Gold. There are literally tons of threads in this forum that could assist you in building the survivable DPS monster you wish to be.
Right-click the person on the team list and choose "Info". If it says the name of an AT, that's what they are. If it doesn't, they're Freeform.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Totally off topic here and I am not flaming your one of the more sane people around here and I enjoy your posts. But someone has to say it. That girl in ur av looks like she has a MASSIVE zeppelin @_@"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
For what it's worth, it is the Spaceship Yamato, from Starblazers.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
So its not just me then :P I wasn't jkn I was being serious and I did say nice >__>"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
sing along everyone !
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Sheesh... :redface:
Edit: Hmm, can't seem to find the option to upload a pic any longer. Has that been removed?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I have a tank which runs in Ranged,
I have dps which run in support and have had to tank in it,
I have support who have had to tank in support,(can we all say spam BCR) becasue heals also get aggro.
I have had a ranged dps in support, with concentration- damage form, Aura of ebon darkness- damage passive, get told to start healing because the person looked at the icon above the picture and not whats under the picture.
WE don't use the trinity here, otherwise we would not have pugs. It's work with what you have,e.g. having an alert with FIVE ranged, FOUR tanks and 1 dps(boy did that one take a while), 2 dps and 3 heals- thats green sheild, heal ability and AoRP (one of the healers tanked)
Pack some healing items, get ready to block to shed aggro. Learn to deal with other combinations of players and wait till you get a Level 7 tank(who actually did quite well) with your level 30 DPS.
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That's how I roll, except I don't blame the tank.
And THEN I use my super secret 100% threat wipe. DEATH!
Hee hee hee
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
The worst part is when you're in an alert, and you do the super secret threat wipe, re-engage the boss, and get aggro again. Bad team!
Whose Tank is it Anyway.
This.
Also this.
Deliciously nutritious!
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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It's the Guild Navigator's tank.
The Spice must flow.
The way for you as a DPS should survive should be picking powers that drop your threat and aggro these powers are in need of a review for they do not work very well.
The other solution is well building up your defenses.
There's probably a lot of people here that are used to free-forming, and that's great. If you can try to understand that this is a very unique system to Champions Online in a gaming genre that tends to use tried and true methods, hopefully you can sympathize a bit, and see that the "Archetype" system is the one I'm utilizing- I'm not deficient at building my skills, my skills were largely built for me to fill my role as DPS.
I totally get that a lot of people build outside their role to reach intended function, which to me does seem like poor game design. I know I was a bit contentious in my earlier posts and I genuinely am sorry for that, but I hope at least some of you can understand that when I see someone labeled 'Tank,' I expect them to be tanks. I feel like a stranger in a strange land right about now.
Once you've tasted freedom, it's hard to go back into the box, you know?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I'll also point something out here... being in a team means having a team effort. Meaning if you draw aggro--stop attacking. Herp-a-derp. The tank gets the chance to come over and pick up aggro again and regain a bit of threat.
This has happened since the dawn of time in MMO's. It's always been the responsibility on both ends. Not one or the other. :rolleyes:
You can also tell if your tank buddy is tanking or not if he uses crippling challenge or challenging strikes. Hell, if hes using both, hes golden. I've only had two people pull aggro off me in alerts or lairs in the past three months. Only one of them wasn't using crippling challenge and even then that was a struggle back and fourth.
Check the debuffs on the enemy and that should tell you if it's okay to let the DPS tap on full or if you even have a true tank in the group. Though I have to laugh, I didn't intend my build to be tanky at all. The moment you pick up crippling challenge and challenging strikes--it's pretty automatic from there.
Crippling Challenge means to pull aggro and change targets.
Challenging strikes is to maintain that aggro.
If you want a tank, just send me a message and I'll fill in. Someone has to provide a solution instead of bickering, right? :biggrin:
That part in bold doesn't always apply if someone's playing an archetype.
From what I see, at least some of the archetypes look to be pigeon-holed into a trinity role of some sort.
There's also some devices which are useful as emergency sheilds. Demonic flesh graft, the one which gives you a black ball around you. eruption of course.
If it's any consolation,ev erytime I use a NA attack, I get aggro too. Big spike DPS will do that.
Doing ricochet throw on a line of mobs in an alert, is a shoot and run like heck tactic or with acrobatics. Block and jump back.
Terra, if you mail me in game on @cloudsatdawn with what stats you have, I can have a scavenge thru my spare legion gear for you. Also mods. I tend to give away spares.
I have some purple secondaries but they are mostly int/pre/str .
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The tank ATs have that role by default, so knowing that, also take note that a majority of them don't have self heals. So try to compensate for it with devices if you can. Its what I've done on all of my AT's and they've all been able to keep up with most freeforms with the exception of inventor which is just a bad rollout for an AT, since its pets don't deal significant damage, its heals are mediocre, and its damage without pets is also lacking. I'd go in on how they could have made inventor better but....another day.
And it's yet another marvel of a questionable design on Cryptic's side. I remember very well that Blizzard mmo and how all DPS classes had a threat wipes, either faking own death, vanishing mid-combat or going invisible.
Here only three DPS AT have something like that, which is even more hilarious when you consider that two of those three AT are free ones.
I gather that Cryptic tried to introduce trinity in form of archetypes, but most of AT isn't even properly equipped for performing within this system.
And let's not forget AT tanks and their inability to keep aggro, pretty much only Behemoth and Invincible having a chance in this matter. Sometimes.
Honestly, I don't even know why roles are here. Whole game is built around the Hybrid role.
Because it provides options. Roles change your character quite a bit, and yet not so much that they restrict you. If the game is built around hybrid, then that's good because that's the middle point and it means that playing a dps role will feel like playing a dps role.
If anything though, I would say the game is build around dps roles. I say this because if you don't build squishy, you're ridiculously invincible, and if you do build squishy you're reasonably survivable.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
- do not start the fight before the tank,
- follow the tank where she goes,
- block when the DPSer gets the aggro.
And max his damage output.
Yes, really. I don't like tanking for underperforming DPSers.
N.B. : I did a lot of Alerts and I'm not sure I met more than a dozen of competent DPSers, probably less than 10 even....
It's DUMB to have icons over folks' head showing 'role' when role doesn't communicate anything useful.
What would be nice is if there were optional flags or (better yet) titles people could grab that could sum up what their intentions/build was designed around.
(Like 'tank, passive healer/dps, melee dps, debuffer/cc, etc.')
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I like the title suggestion.
+1.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
For myself, I find the game runs more smoothly when I have the name display turned off, so I have absolutely no idea what icons are being displayed over the other players' heads. I just try to go be a superhero, ya know?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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You get no credit when you do your job good...but when you fail at holding aggro because of a messed up game mechanic...you get sh!+ on by the other players.
Good times.
I remember I had a super group teammate ask me if I was a Tank...which I said yes to, because I busted my **** trying to make sure I held aggro every single mission. Then they asked if I ever tanked Clarence, which I said no, because I never ran that event. They then said they don't consider anyone a tank unless they can tank clarence. So in their eyes, you could only be a tank if you played once a year content. It was absurd.
Being a Tank in CO is definitely not a rewarding job.
On a side note...I actually switched from Tank the role to Hybrid some time ago...and I hold aggro better.
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Pretty much.
Another "issue" I ran into (issue in the sense that it's notable but not an issue for me) was that other than when playing with names I'm familiar with the vast majority of the time I pull aggro regardless of what type of character I'm playing. Amusing when I'm running a healer and someone who doesn't have aggro is screaming for a shield/heal...almost as amusing as glass cannons charging in early, getting dropped, then complaining when I grab aggro saying I should have grabbed it sooner only for me to tell them "Yo DPSer...you do realize I'm not using any taunt advantages over here right? RIGHT?"
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I guess my only 2 cents to this are the following:
1: it's pretty sad that the ATs stick so heavily to the trinity concept, when none of the freeforms do. It either leaves you a hyper-squish dps threat magnet, a healer that nobody needs, or a tank that can by and large get totally demolished threat-wise (and often survivability, too) by even a half-focused freeform.
2: The main thing you ever wanna look at when considering if someone's a tank is the following: Are they running in first? Did they draw aggro? Are they holding it? Are they surviving? If so, ignore the symbol, you've got a tank on your hands. If not? They're probably either badly designed build for a subpar AT (I'm looking at you, glacier. Why people think you're a dps AT is so far beyond me...), or one of those people who realized death in this game carries literally no consequences.
OP, you're not mistaken in your throughts, that this is how it normally works. It took me like a year to figure out that pure-speccing for any role is basically asking for a beating. My healer is hovering on the brink of deletion, because it'd be faster to level another toon up to 40 than it'll be to farm her another retcon.
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Having a little shield icon on your character is not a responsibility. It's an artifact of a system that completely misleads people who think this game is some kind of trinity setup.
Equally bad is the support icon, which makes people expect healing.
They should never have been called "roles" and they should never have had those icons.
A lot happens fast during an Alert and you have no idea how other people have built their characters and, if you are paying attention to your own character's contribution, very little idea of what others might be contributing.
I have just hit 40 on a fire tank. Every power that I could possibly cram threat enhancement onto, I spent the points. I took Sentinel Aura. I hit stuff hard and fast and grabbed as much aggro as possible. I tended to steal aggro from other tanks -- and yet sometimes a DPS or hybrid "role" character stole aggro from me anyway. That's just the way it goes. The only almost-guaranteed way to hold aggro for the duration is Devour Essence combined with AOE healing. I've done three characters with that now and I'm kind of over it. :P
Oh and if there isn't a tank oriented character in the alert with you occasionally a good healer can keep the DPS up and I have healers that could act as a tank as well.
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I've had alerts with
Tank and Spank- well named
Mr Tanky -well named
and yes Taco's Chernobyl who gets aggro and keeps it. usually in a noxious cloud
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My Main Tank - Big'Red has 2 basic builds: Hybrid with roughly 6500 hp and over 600 Str* with about 350 offense and defense each & Tank with over 16000 hp with 260ish str, with 300ish offense and almost 500 defense. I run with critical strike in a few powers but no crippling challenge. Regen, resurgence, bountiful chi resurgence, and masterful dodge ensure that I always have my bases covered for any threat. Alpha strikes, beta strikes, union strikes... it doesn't matter - you can barely see a momentarily dip on the health bar. Red just takes it and giggles a bit, while shaking her head sadly at the lack of damage from her adversaries.
She can hold aggro 99.5% of the time... but it's much easier if she can make the first attack. So I use kinetic darts as an 'energy builder' so I can get that first attack. This helps her gain and keep aggro, and she can do enough damage to be considered a DPS, although it's a lot of big spikes.
This is, for me, a lot more fun than having to have the trinity, because now I AM the trinity... Red's alerts might fail on rare occasions, but it's NEVER from team face-plants, or from excessive team member deaths.
But my DPS toons are similar, they can handle an alpha strike too, just with some prep and planning. But some of them do have the habit of picking up aggro against their will. I've had to build them to cope with this, knowing that they WILL BE SHOT AT. Better to be prepared than face-planted.
*Why 600 Str? Because I could :biggrin:
Then you manage how much damage you do. If you keep stealing aggro, then hold block and let the tank pick it up.
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Ooze Tunneling costs 20 MCPD Recognition. It won't wipe the aggro, but it will stop you from dying before someone else can grab it.
Yes, it will lower your DPS, but so will any aggro wipe power. And it's available to any AT without spending any cash, or insane amounts of resources on devices.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I could make the same argument with Teleport or any equivalent TP bought from the Z-store, but that means any DPS AT who decides out of thematic reasons or personal preference to not take any of those TPs are considered at a disadvantage.
Another alternative is don't manage how much damage you do, and use your death as a threat wipe. Remember kids, infinite continues in this game! ( unless you're doing Gravitar or Warlord in which case BLOCK LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT! :eek:). In fact, this sounds like a rather viable strategy considering the OP; I've often found that on my ATs, the only real thing I can do to shake aggro is get defeated, since often even if I slow down my damage for a few moments, I just get aggro back as soon as I touch an attack anyway.
There's no shame in being a berserker... heck, maybe that can be part of your character theme! I know I've had a few characters that I purposely played like they had a death wish, and it's not like in other games where the party gets mad at you and the raid leader yells at you and threatens to take your dragon points away if you do it again.
NOTE: Don't do this on Recruiting Drive, that's the only alert where you dying actually seems to matter.
There's always Teleport, which is free. If the dps in question uses it quickly enough they can zip out of danger and into safety faster than you can say blabberin blabberskithes.
Acrobatics and Super Speed can be used for this purpose too... there's no shame in running away and hiding behind a tree when you're made of paper; just make sure that you're running away, and not kiting, there is an important difference.
Shoot even flight can be used to help an archetype survive; if they're ranged. Just hover around your max range, dps to your hearts content, and when the boss turns their attention on you hold space bar until safe. If the boss is melee, then this works even better.
General message: Rather than relying on that trinity mechanic that those other games force you to rely on, why not indulge in that funderful travel power mechanic that this game provides?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yep, this is standard MMO practice.