This much is true: A healer who can't defend himself in a pug is totally screwed.
Go into any alert, heal someone, get the whole pack of mobs after you, one by one, because the other 4 people completely ignored them in favor of the boss.
Now I just don't heal anyone until the mobs are engaged. If no one engages them, I don't heal. I'll go the entire fight just spamming Rebuke at the boss, I have no problem with that.
But a higher level freeform is really much better off if they can just burn their healer aggro down quickly, and AoPM will definitely help you do that, and the more defensive support passives very much will not.
That aside, the Sorcery Auras are going to be actually better for support than they currently are.
In Support Role:
AoED gives teammates constant near R2 Active Offense damage boost.
AoRP gives teammates constant near Invuln damage resistance.
AoAC gives teammates a hefty reduction in power costs, cooldowns and gives a fairly good charge time reduction.
AoPM gives teammates >60 to all superstats.
Seems to me that your argument is forfeit.
Sure when I double bubble a whole team and refresh them constantly thanks to AoPM's bonus to my Rec/End/Int with my support toon I'm not protecting them... Most AoPM Hybrids are DPS, Most AoPM supports are actual healers/buffers.
I guess Talia Rah is a terrible healer too and can't keep a team safe.
Sure when I double bubble a whole team and refresh them constantly thanks to AoPM's bonus to my Rec/End/Int with my support toon I'm not protecting them... Most AoPM Hybrids are DPS, Most AoPM supports are actual healers/buffers.
I guess Talia Rah is a terrible healer too and can't keep a team safe.
You can double bubble without AoPM easily so AoPM isn't what's protecting them. I wish I knew how to tell what the majority of builds in the game are, then I could say "most people do X" with some level of authority and credibility...
The whole point of playing Support is to be the weaker team member in order to make the rest of your team even better. Maybe you were absent that day, I don't know. All of the Auras that were listed are *Support* Auras. Of course you're going to get the weaker bonus if you're in *Support* role but if you look at the other side of the fence for these powers your allies, assuming you do play on teams (sounds like you don't), will have their abilities enhanced by a larger amount. Such is the role of playing with Support passives. Don't like it? Pick another passive.
You can double bubble without AoPM easily so AoPM isn't what's protecting them. I wish I knew how to tell what the majority of builds in the game are, then I could say "most people do X" with some level of authority and credibility...
True but that doesn't prove that you can't make a support toon with AoPM that protects his team efficiently. And AoPM helps with that, it depends on your build like every other passive. Defiance doesn't mean you'll be a good tank, AoRP doesn't mean you'll automatically keep your team safe.
About my assuptions: that's plain observation and logic, for what other purpose would you use AoPM in Hybrid role? Being more resilient? There's Invul, Defiance, Regen, LR... Healing/Support? Switch to support and you'll be a lot more effective. What's left? Control, besides Grimoires I haven't seen many FF Hybrids specializing into controls (pve). Balanced DPS, that's the kind of AoPM hybrid toon you meet the most in the game.
1. Boost Primary stat. Its obviosly, that SR Primary is Presence. So we have a large bonuses for heal and stealth (that actually still not working, Cryptic!!!)
2. Boost energy. I suppose that i don't need to explain this.
3. Boost damage. Of course Healers NEED that. SR is nerfing damage pretty tough. So a small, but still good bonus to damage are neseccery.
4. Boost Constitution. Ah, my favorite. No one says, that SR is SUPPOSE to be squishy. If anyone think differently - show me where is that rule. I wanna see that. Boost HP doesn't mean, that healer will be bad. He just will be more tough to take down. Or you prefer a healer, that will die in a first strong AoE hit from bosses?
4. Boost defense. Hah! Before patch i was having about 34%. Now its 24%. Most people just dont realize a difference.
So where is that OP AoPM, that im always heard about? Where is it?
Aren't Support don't deserve a little more respect? Or its just a trash?
P.S. Damn i hope they will nerf some of defensive passives. Then im gonna take popcorn and Cola. And... watch the Show...
While AoED and AoRP may make sense to diminish in support mode (and I'm not convinced, given that the support role already diminishes what they buff), AoAC and AoPM increase the active side of support abilities as well. Decreasing their self-effect in support relative to hybrid seems a counterproductive element.
P.S. Damn i hope they will nerf some of defensive passives. Then im gonna take popcorn and Cola. And... watch the Show...
See, this is some of what irritates me about this. If this was a FotM Defensive passive on the chopping block, there'd be people ripping at each other's throats. Defiance being an excellent example, seeing as it similarly had interactions with Enrage that made it super popular prior to what's on the PTS.
Yet you've got people clamoring for and cheering on a nerf to a support aura, that- along with supports in general- had it rough for years after launch, despite AoPM being in a similar boat to Defiance. The simple fact is, AoPM was never popular for any other reason than its interaction with a handful of powers, Enrage being the shining posterboy for this. At least Defiance is a solid performer on its own, AoPM always did work through powers scaling with the stats it buffs, which the impact of was also greatly reduced in On Alert.
Of course some senseless fool is going to come along and tell me now about how I'm only crying about this because I have an AoPM toon or something equally asinine, and as usual either be completely and utterly wrong about where I'm coming from (Tip: I don't even have a single one) or chose to fallaciously pin something onto me since they know I'm right and can't beat what I'm saying any other way. And as usual, my ignore list will grow one person larger, because said person is incapable of understanding or admitting simple logic:
In your average, run of the mill support build, AoPM isn't a game breaking goliath of imbalance, and with the other changes in this patch has had much of what was making it "imbalanced" completely neutered. Cryptic as usual is making a two way change resulting in a pointless overadjustment. Whether the aura power inversion in support mode is necessary is arguable, this change is completely pointless.
I am curious what you consider average since the average build I regularly see seems to becoming quite normal. I can test this stuff on an average build and still outperform quite well. And then again, it's kind of impossible to tell a developer, who can look at the server statistics directly, that they are wrong about something.
You've spouted out a lot about average builds, but so far you've yet to actually define what is average.
1. Boost Primary stat. Its obviosly, that SR Primary is Presence. So we have a large bonuses for heal and stealth (that actually still not working, Cryptic!!!)
2. Boost energy. I suppose that i don't need to explain this.
3. Boost damage. Of course Healers NEED that. SR is nerfing damage pretty tough. So a small, but still good bonus to damage are neseccery.
4. Boost Constitution. Ah, my favorite. No one says, that SR is SUPPOSE to be squishy. If anyone think differently - show me where is that rule. I wanna see that. Boost HP doesn't mean, that healer will be bad. He just will be more tough to take down. Or you prefer a healer, that will die in a first strong AoE hit from bosses?
4. Boost defense. Hah! Before patch i was having about 34%. Now its 24%. Most people just dont realize a difference.
So where is that OP AoPM, that im always heard about? Where is it?
Aren't Support don't deserve a little more respect? Or its just a trash?
P.S. Damn i hope they will nerf some of defensive passives. Then im gonna take popcorn and Cola. And... watch the Show...
1~4 are fine. They are (were, before On Alert) what AoPM provides. However, they don't include defense. Your extra defense is not from AoPM, but spec skills. The red line, is the reason that AoPM gets nerfed.
AoPM boosts one's all stats. Which means AoPM users can have about 30% more SS, and 500%+ more non-SS. If these stats interact with stat spec skills, the influences probabely are much more than Devs' expectations.
If there is no spec skills, I'd say AoPM is fine. But if the influence of spec skills are considered, AoPM may need further evaluation.
Aspect of the Infernal:
-This power now allows you to stack Concentration by applying poisons to your foe. You do not need to own the Concentration power for this to work.
-This power counts as a Form.
This is an issue (probably brought up in the countless pages before this post, but here's another).
Any chance of this becoming Enrage instead of Concentration, considering the best poison applicator (Epidemic) is a melee AOE and the 2 best powers (IMO) Epidemic & Devour Essense are both melee.
Not only that, but Concentration runs off Int or Ego, neither of which I would pick as freeform (love the lifetime) and archetypes only get Ego as a secondary (not even an option until the stat revamp).
And thematically speaking on the Scourge... I don't really see them as a very focused mind, much more of anger and rash action (although a shot of antibiotics should clear that up)...
This is an issue (probably brought up in the countless pages before this post, but here's another).
Any chance of this becoming Enrage instead of Concentration, considering the best poison applicator (Epidemic) is a melee AOE and the 2 best powers (IMO) Epidemic & Devour Essense are both melee.
Not only that, but Concentration runs off Int or Ego, neither of which I would pick as freeform (love the lifetime) and archetypes only get Ego as a secondary (not even an option until the stat revamp).
And thematically speaking on the Scourge... I don't really see them as a very focused mind, much more of anger and rash action (although a shot of antibiotics should clear that up)...
+1 to Enrage over Concentration
Epidemic is not melee it's range... But anyways, Cryptic can u guys please make Aspect of the Infernal scale with con... because i love con i have lots of it hehe.
This is an issue (probably brought up in the countless pages before this post, but here's another).
Any chance of this becoming Enrage instead of Concentration, considering the best poison applicator (Epidemic) is a melee AOE and the 2 best powers (IMO) Epidemic & Devour Essense are both melee.
Not only that, but Concentration runs off Int or Ego, neither of which I would pick as freeform (love the lifetime) and archetypes only get Ego as a secondary (not even an option until the stat revamp).
And thematically speaking on the Scourge... I don't really see them as a very focused mind, much more of anger and rash action (although a shot of antibiotics should clear that up)...
+1 to Enrage over Concentration
How about we just not do this and put it back to Infernal Strength? Enraged makes it only work with Chain and Bestial Builds and not work with Ranged Infernal at all.
Concentration does the exact opposite.
It worked fine as its own stacks of something unique.
So. Question, if the devs are watching/it hasn't been brought up already.
Is it intended behavior for the new toggled forms - most especially Concentration and Enrage - to have no internal cooldown on applying their stacks? If not, you might want to fix it, like, quickly. Inexorable Tides is currently the single best Enrage stacker on PTS, clocking in at a full 8 stacks of Rage in barely a second if you fire it off repeatedly in a group of foes. It sorta kinda renders all other Enrage-stacking skills pointless. Concentration's just as bad - an AoE maintain from a distance ramps up the entire stack of Concentration within three ticks.
Da's coo' if it's what you're intending - though it seems very odd if so - but I have to wonder at the logic of it if it's intended behavior. Mostly why I'm certain it's not. Would also be kinda nice for half the powers in the Brick tab to have a point again - a low-damage leg sweep being the Ultimate Hulk-Out Attack is just weird.
Epidemic is not melee it's range... But anyways, Cryptic can u guys please make Aspect of the Infernal scale with con... because i love con i have lots of it hehe.
Doh! That's what I get for not fact-checking...
I could have swore it used to be labeled as a close area melee... I'm stupid, ignore most of my original post...
Epidemic is not melee it's range... But anyways, Cryptic can u guys please make Aspect of the Infernal scale with con... because i love con i have lots of it hehe.
Sure... so you can get more HPs and more damage at the same time?
Sure... so you can get more HPs and more damage at the same time?
Stat scaling is a ***** to balance on anyway. Nearly anything you put it on, it has some desirable effect. Forms that scale on DEX, STR or EGO double dip, which can be every bit as important as getting a two for one by having something scale off PRE or CON.
Stat scaling is a ***** to balance on anyway. Nearly anything you put it on, it has some desirable effect. Forms that scale on DEX, STR or EGO double dip, which can be every bit as important as getting a two for one by having something scale off PRE or CON.
I agree, it's called Personal Force Field because it isn't like IDF. Don't make it a group buff, just make it a worthwhile defensive passive.
Oh boo hoo.
You cannot make it work as a defensive passive without you basically taking and calling it "Double Health".
Atleast as a Team Passive, it would provide the current low shielding to an entire team.
Change Field Surge simiarly, so it applies to everyone with a PFF on.
And you lose the "Personal" part. Oh darn. You don't lose any shield health and the entire team would gain it. Plus we currently do not have a Team Defense Passive, and this one makes the most sense.
You want it to be better, this is the solution without asking them to increase its defense/health. Which they are very clearly not doing since they didn't even touch PFF during the Force Pass.
You cannot make it work as a defensive passive without you basically taking and calling it "Double Health".
Atleast as a Team Passive, it would provide the current low shielding to an entire team.
Change Field Surge simiarly, so it applies to everyone with a PFF on.
And you lose the "Personal" part. Oh darn. You don't lose any shield health and the entire team would gain it. Plus we currently do not have a Team Defense Passive, and this one makes the most sense.
You want it to be better, this is the solution without asking them to increase its defense/health. Which they are very clearly not doing since they didn't even touch PFF during the Force Pass.
Glad you didn't quote Cyrone when saying someone couldn't get PFF to work, that would have been amusing for so many reasons...
Moving along...no. On second thought, no.
Oh boo hoo, there are several team defensive options and you don't like them so you want another one (hey this fun, I can do this too)
No need for this to be yet another team defensive option. There's already Sentinel Aura, Sentry Aura, five support passives one of which is Aura of Radiant Protection (team defensive passive in function) and IDF. I can break down how each one improves defense if necessary even though it shouldn't be...
Making it another team defensive option is beyond redundant and doesn't make it better nor is it a solution. You want team defense? Stack AoRP, IDF, sent aura and sentry aura and laugh as your team is nigh unkillable if they are even remotely competent.
Any chance of this becoming Enrage instead of Concentration, considering the best poison applicator (Epidemic) is a melee AOE and the 2 best powers (IMO) Epidemic & Devour Essense are both melee.
Not only that, but Concentration runs off Int or Ego, neither of which I would pick as freeform (love the lifetime) and archetypes only get Ego as a secondary (not even an option until the stat revamp).
+1 to Enrage over Concentration
Epidemic is NOT Melee .. Devour Essence is the only melee power in Infernal.
EGO however i also see as a bad idea, i normally build for DEX / CON / REC where REC mostly is just in the
120-160 range and DEX / CON 200+
I stil wish you'd leave Aspect of Infernal as it is, since i like it, also the aura and trail when flying, and i see
already that i may switch to Form of the Tempest now if you really remove the multiplicative part of Aspect
True but that doesn't prove that you can't make a support toon with AoPM that protects his team efficiently. And AoPM helps with that, it depends on your build like every other passive. Defiance doesn't mean you'll be a good tank, AoRP doesn't mean you'll automatically keep your team safe.
I wonder how many AoPM users have ever tried AoRP and after that decided that AoPM is better protection,
and how many just take it because the hype over the Rage of Majesty builds.
What are the pros of AoRP (for me):
Group takes less damage, you need to heal less so you also get less aggro. If you get aggro you get less damage.
Personally i'd take that all time over a little more HPs and mabe 1-2% more effective damage through higher Superstats.
Awww, someone's upset his idea wasn't popular...again. Tough. :cool:
Moving along, Cyrone has posted several detailed suggestions for fixing PFF in several threads and I know he has more experience with making it work than anyone I've personally seen. I back his ideas 100%.
Making PFF just yet another redundant team assist power? No...and no.
You cannot make it work as a defensive passive without you basically taking and calling it "Double Health".
Atleast as a Team Passive, it would provide the current low shielding to an entire team.
Change Field Surge simiarly, so it applies to everyone with a PFF on.
And you lose the "Personal" part. Oh darn. You don't lose any shield health and the entire team would gain it. Plus we currently do not have a Team Defense Passive, and this one makes the most sense.
You want it to be better, this is the solution without asking them to increase its defense/health. Which they are very clearly not doing since they didn't even touch PFF during the Force Pass.
Here is a suggestion for what you ask for.
How about an advantage for Protection Field that makes it AoE. No it won't be passive but I enjoy PFF as is. Additionally if you look at the patch notes from Free For All update then you will see that PFF did in fact get a change with the Force pass. Max shield strength was lowered. So, that being said, I would advise you to do your homework before suggesting radical changes to a passive that only needs small changes to be effective for everyone other than me. 'Kay? Thanks.
Additionally if you look at the patch notes from Free For All update then you will see that PFF did in fact get a change with the Force pass. Max shield strength was lowered.
You're going to far and asking too much. Turn back now!
Why don't you show me how, since you're the expert on everything.
How to make PFF actually work or how to read patch notes before making erroneous statements? The former I can show you in-game easily, the latter I can't help you with. The whining? I need to level up a bit more, that's the one thing you have an advantage over me in.
There's no need to fight like children about this. If you're not going to try to be constructive, take it to PMs or something. :U
Speaking of the current topic of discussion... I back Cyrone on PFF, as well. I think it being a 'team' passive doesn't really add anything, at all (and specifically to the current list of viable defensive team support options) and agree that if we want that functionality putting a +AoE advantage on Protection Field and/or Mindful Reinforcement is probably the superior idea.
Fixing the regeneration rate of it would probably go the longest way of making it a lot better then it currently is. Seeing Cyrone's numbers on it are markedly depressing, to be honest.
Why don't you show me how, since you're the expert on everything.
Here's how PFF isn't terribly bad.
As far as shield health, my main has 7,779 shields from PFF and from gear/specs has 70% damage resist. The only thing that needs changed that I see is for the power to have the "entering combat reduces regen by 50%" removed. Learn the power as I have and you too will see this.
The only thing that needs changed that I see is for the power to have the "entering combat reduces regen by 50%" removed.
For the life of me I still don't get what the ideal function of this limitation ever was. It's my understanding that PFF was essentially intended to be the opposite of regeneration in every way but that opposite in the quoted just doesn't work.
Kinda like the one Traps Corruptors and Masterminds had in CoX, but working on (a non-suck version of) the PFF mechanics. Except instead of people individually having shield health, the Force Field generator has a huge pool of shield that scales with the number of people being effected by it and is shared by all of them.
Could be OP, or complete crap, I dunno. I really like the idea, but I think it'd be a pain to find the right numbers to make it balanced.
As far as shield health, my main has 7,779 shields from PFF and from gear/specs has 70% damage resist. The only thing that needs changed that I see is for the power to have the "entering combat reduces regen by 50%" removed. Learn the power as I have and you too will see this.
I never said it was terribly bad, I said it could use improvement without reaching toward the realm of being overpowered.
Adjusting the recharge would help, but not hitting Regen levels would be hard, and if you did then it would outshine Regen because you would have basically a Double Health bar, as opposed to a true shield.
What I was suggesting wasn't trying to change its performance, just double its function.
See I don't see how I'm the master, since you're the one who started the b*tching and whining first.
Maybe I could teach you how to reply to counterpoint without being a complete jackass, but it'll take a few months of training to break you of your crapfest.
But if you're as dedicated to that as you at making a gruff over every little thing, I'm sure you'll master it in no time.
As for the rest of it, I have more than One Thing over you.
Going for a combo breaker here.
*looks at personal signature picture, looks at Roadwulf's suggested PFF change, looks back to signature* Enough said.
Yanno, I rarely agree with you, but I think on this case I'm going to have to say I wouldn't mind a few more supportive pet options n Gadgeteering and that would be an interesting/fun way of getting a team FF effect into place.
if we want that functionality putting a +AoE advantage on Protection Field and/or Mindful Reinforcement is probably the superior idea..
Not sure that'd be a great idea on MR.
If MR functioned as it does now but had an AOE advantage with nothing else changed that would essentially give another large team wide heal with no cone to limit it. It would be Sentinel Aura (pre-nerf) all over again since the entire team being attacked enough to drop the shields is a rarity. That advantage would need to drastically cut or eliminate the healing function of MR...or have a really really small AOE range.
Even on PF there'd be problems considering how easy it is to spam shields and considering the order defenses go in. All you'd need is someone with a lot of energy, possibly in support role, spamming PF to make the team unkillable against anything that doesn't penetrate shields.
*looks at personal signature picture, looks at Roadwulf's suggested PFF change, looks back to signature* Enough said.
Actually I really admire your PFF tanking. Making the best of a bad situation should always be commended.
The main problem I have with PFF is the order of stacking when it comes to Suplimentary Shields. PFF, as I recall, is always on top, so putting up Protection Field or (the Telepathing one), does notthing to help the regeneration of PFF, and so you spend alot of time fighting your own power trying to keep it up.
Field Surge obviously helps, but not as much as it should.
If we could just manage to get them to change this portion of the functionality, basically that other shields activated are on top of PFF.
Also a functionality change to Protection Field would be nice, were "If the shield ends at full term, whatever is left recharges PFF". Could be an advantage, but maybe make ita 1 point since its use is conditional upon using PFF.
Kinda like the one Traps Corruptors and Masterminds had in CoX, but working on (a non-suck version of) the PFF mechanics. Except instead of people individually having shield health, the Force Field generator has a huge pool of shield that scales with the number of people being effected by it and is shared by all of them.
Could be OP, or complete crap, I dunno. I really like the idea, but I think it'd be a pain to find the right numbers to make it balanced.
Played ME3 (loads of shield generators in that game) and thought the same thing. Main issue I'd see with it is that the pet would need to be really fragile otherwise it's essentially just a perma shield (another idea is to make the shield pool unable to regenerate in combat). In PvP(dueling or hero games) with pet targeting being what it is...there might be an issue. I'll put it like that for now.
If MR functioned as it does now but had an AOE advantage with nothing else changed that would essentially give another large team wide heal with no cone to limit it. It would be Sentinel Aura (pre-nerf) all over again since the entire team being attacked enough to drop the shields is a rarity. That advantage would need to drastically cut or eliminate the healing function of MR...or have a really really small AOE range.
Even on PF there'd be problems considering how easy it is to spam shields and considering the order defenses go in. All you'd need is someone with a lot of energy, possibly in support role, spamming PF to make the team unkillable against anything that doesn't penetrate shields.
I think having it kill the secondary effect of the thing in question is a fair advantage, and maybe killing the field HP a bit to compensate for the fact it's hitting your whole team (or n number of targets within y range of initial target, maybe capping it at 2 additional targets [total 3 hit]).
Increase in energy cost wouldn't be a bad downside to go along with all that as well (putting it's energy costs at the Team_Heal scalar instead).
You do make some compelling arguments that it may be a bit more complicated then just adding an advantage to do it - there'd have to be some give/take to make it so that it was a viable and attractive option, but not an overpowering one at the same time.
Actually I really admire your PFF tanking. Making the best of a bad situation should always be commended.
The main problem I have with PFF is the order of stacking when it comes to Suplimentary Shields. PFF, as I recall, is always on top, so putting up Protection Field or (the Telepathing one), does notthing to help the regeneration of PFF, and so you spend alot of time fighting your own power trying to keep it up.
Field Surge obviously helps, but not as much as it should.
Then isn't one solution to change the order shields are applied?
(After all it's the case with all other passives, no matter how good or bad they are)
I don't really see the goal of making this a stronger IDF or a clone of AoRP.
Either increase the regen rate or make the other bubbles be hit first, and you have a defensive passive that's not worse than Regen.
As it stands, I love Regen and PFF as they are.
First just got a boost, second could use some as well, but I don't see why make it yet another "I must play with others or I can't do crap" support passive.
Comments
Go into any alert, heal someone, get the whole pack of mobs after you, one by one, because the other 4 people completely ignored them in favor of the boss.
Now I just don't heal anyone until the mobs are engaged. If no one engages them, I don't heal. I'll go the entire fight just spamming Rebuke at the boss, I have no problem with that.
But a higher level freeform is really much better off if they can just burn their healer aggro down quickly, and AoPM will definitely help you do that, and the more defensive support passives very much will not.
I guess Talia Rah is a terrible healer too and can't keep a team safe.
You can double bubble without AoPM easily so AoPM isn't what's protecting them. I wish I knew how to tell what the majority of builds in the game are, then I could say "most people do X" with some level of authority and credibility...
Spot on Cyrone.
About my assuptions: that's plain observation and logic, for what other purpose would you use AoPM in Hybrid role? Being more resilient? There's Invul, Defiance, Regen, LR... Healing/Support? Switch to support and you'll be a lot more effective. What's left? Control, besides Grimoires I haven't seen many FF Hybrids specializing into controls (pve). Balanced DPS, that's the kind of AoPM hybrid toon you meet the most in the game.
Lets see how AoPM amplifies Supports.
1. Boost Primary stat. Its obviosly, that SR Primary is Presence. So we have a large bonuses for heal and stealth (that actually still not working, Cryptic!!!)
2. Boost energy. I suppose that i don't need to explain this.
3. Boost damage. Of course Healers NEED that. SR is nerfing damage pretty tough. So a small, but still good bonus to damage are neseccery.
4. Boost Constitution. Ah, my favorite. No one says, that SR is SUPPOSE to be squishy. If anyone think differently - show me where is that rule. I wanna see that. Boost HP doesn't mean, that healer will be bad. He just will be more tough to take down. Or you prefer a healer, that will die in a first strong AoE hit from bosses?
4. Boost defense. Hah! Before patch i was having about 34%. Now its 24%. Most people just dont realize a difference.
So where is that OP AoPM, that im always heard about? Where is it?
Aren't Support don't deserve a little more respect? Or its just a trash?
P.S. Damn i hope they will nerf some of defensive passives. Then im gonna take popcorn and Cola. And... watch the Show...
See, this is some of what irritates me about this. If this was a FotM Defensive passive on the chopping block, there'd be people ripping at each other's throats. Defiance being an excellent example, seeing as it similarly had interactions with Enrage that made it super popular prior to what's on the PTS.
Yet you've got people clamoring for and cheering on a nerf to a support aura, that- along with supports in general- had it rough for years after launch, despite AoPM being in a similar boat to Defiance. The simple fact is, AoPM was never popular for any other reason than its interaction with a handful of powers, Enrage being the shining posterboy for this. At least Defiance is a solid performer on its own, AoPM always did work through powers scaling with the stats it buffs, which the impact of was also greatly reduced in On Alert.
Of course some senseless fool is going to come along and tell me now about how I'm only crying about this because I have an AoPM toon or something equally asinine, and as usual either be completely and utterly wrong about where I'm coming from (Tip: I don't even have a single one) or chose to fallaciously pin something onto me since they know I'm right and can't beat what I'm saying any other way. And as usual, my ignore list will grow one person larger, because said person is incapable of understanding or admitting simple logic:
In your average, run of the mill support build, AoPM isn't a game breaking goliath of imbalance, and with the other changes in this patch has had much of what was making it "imbalanced" completely neutered. Cryptic as usual is making a two way change resulting in a pointless overadjustment. Whether the aura power inversion in support mode is necessary is arguable, this change is completely pointless.
You've spouted out a lot about average builds, but so far you've yet to actually define what is average.
1~4 are fine. They are (were, before On Alert) what AoPM provides. However, they don't include defense. Your extra defense is not from AoPM, but spec skills. The red line, is the reason that AoPM gets nerfed.
AoPM boosts one's all stats. Which means AoPM users can have about 30% more SS, and 500%+ more non-SS. If these stats interact with stat spec skills, the influences probabely are much more than Devs' expectations.
If there is no spec skills, I'd say AoPM is fine. But if the influence of spec skills are considered, AoPM may need further evaluation.
This is an issue (probably brought up in the countless pages before this post, but here's another).
Any chance of this becoming Enrage instead of Concentration, considering the best poison applicator (Epidemic) is a melee AOE and the 2 best powers (IMO) Epidemic & Devour Essense are both melee.
Not only that, but Concentration runs off Int or Ego, neither of which I would pick as freeform (love the lifetime) and archetypes only get Ego as a secondary (not even an option until the stat revamp).
And thematically speaking on the Scourge... I don't really see them as a very focused mind, much more of anger and rash action (although a shot of antibiotics should clear that up)...
+1 to Enrage over Concentration
Epidemic is not melee it's range... But anyways, Cryptic can u guys please make Aspect of the Infernal scale with con... because i love con i have lots of it hehe.
PFF would be more useful as a Group Passive that combined with multiple people using it.
Kinda like how IDF works.
How about we just not do this and put it back to Infernal Strength? Enraged makes it only work with Chain and Bestial Builds and not work with Ranged Infernal at all.
Concentration does the exact opposite.
It worked fine as its own stacks of something unique.
I think it's fine to provide these sets an aspect which can be triggered by Chilled and some other secondary effects.
Is it intended behavior for the new toggled forms - most especially Concentration and Enrage - to have no internal cooldown on applying their stacks? If not, you might want to fix it, like, quickly. Inexorable Tides is currently the single best Enrage stacker on PTS, clocking in at a full 8 stacks of Rage in barely a second if you fire it off repeatedly in a group of foes. It sorta kinda renders all other Enrage-stacking skills pointless. Concentration's just as bad - an AoE maintain from a distance ramps up the entire stack of Concentration within three ticks.
Da's coo' if it's what you're intending - though it seems very odd if so - but I have to wonder at the logic of it if it's intended behavior. Mostly why I'm certain it's not. Would also be kinda nice for half the powers in the Brick tab to have a point again - a low-damage leg sweep being the Ultimate Hulk-Out Attack is just weird.
Doh! That's what I get for not fact-checking...
I could have swore it used to be labeled as a close area melee... I'm stupid, ignore most of my original post...
It was a joke... hope ur post wasn't cause then i'll look like stupid hehe.
Stat scaling is a ***** to balance on anyway. Nearly anything you put it on, it has some desirable effect. Forms that scale on DEX, STR or EGO double dip, which can be every bit as important as getting a two for one by having something scale off PRE or CON.
Recovery.
/10 chars
No, just no. Doing something like this takes the "personal" out of Personal Force Field.
Oh boo hoo.
You cannot make it work as a defensive passive without you basically taking and calling it "Double Health".
Atleast as a Team Passive, it would provide the current low shielding to an entire team.
Change Field Surge simiarly, so it applies to everyone with a PFF on.
And you lose the "Personal" part. Oh darn. You don't lose any shield health and the entire team would gain it. Plus we currently do not have a Team Defense Passive, and this one makes the most sense.
You want it to be better, this is the solution without asking them to increase its defense/health. Which they are very clearly not doing since they didn't even touch PFF during the Force Pass.
Again I point to the fact that there is a real and heavy difference between aura/ group passives and solo passives.
I love customization and more options but it comes at a cost. A team Shields passive sounds great but not for pff, a defensive passive.
Glad you didn't quote Cyrone when saying someone couldn't get PFF to work, that would have been amusing for so many reasons...
Moving along...no. On second thought, no.
Oh boo hoo, there are several team defensive options and you don't like them so you want another one (hey this fun, I can do this too)
No need for this to be yet another team defensive option. There's already Sentinel Aura, Sentry Aura, five support passives one of which is Aura of Radiant Protection (team defensive passive in function) and IDF. I can break down how each one improves defense if necessary even though it shouldn't be...
Making it another team defensive option is beyond redundant and doesn't make it better nor is it a solution. You want team defense? Stack AoRP, IDF, sent aura and sentry aura and laugh as your team is nigh unkillable if they are even remotely competent.
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=147071
Epidemic is NOT Melee .. Devour Essence is the only melee power in Infernal.
EGO however i also see as a bad idea, i normally build for DEX / CON / REC where REC mostly is just in the
120-160 range and DEX / CON 200+
I stil wish you'd leave Aspect of Infernal as it is, since i like it, also the aura and trail when flying, and i see
already that i may switch to Form of the Tempest now if you really remove the multiplicative part of Aspect
I wonder how many AoPM users have ever tried AoRP and after that decided that AoPM is better protection,
and how many just take it because the hype over the Rage of Majesty builds.
What are the pros of AoRP (for me):
Group takes less damage, you need to heal less so you also get less aggro. If you get aggro you get less damage.
Personally i'd take that all time over a little more HPs and mabe 1-2% more effective damage through higher Superstats.
Awww, someone's upset his idea wasn't popular...again. Tough. :cool:
Moving along, Cyrone has posted several detailed suggestions for fixing PFF in several threads and I know he has more experience with making it work than anyone I've personally seen. I back his ideas 100%.
Making PFF just yet another redundant team assist power? No...and no.
You're right, that did make everything better.
Here is a suggestion for what you ask for.
How about an advantage for Protection Field that makes it AoE. No it won't be passive but I enjoy PFF as is. Additionally if you look at the patch notes from Free For All update then you will see that PFF did in fact get a change with the Force pass. Max shield strength was lowered. So, that being said, I would advise you to do your homework before suggesting radical changes to a passive that only needs small changes to be effective for everyone other than me. 'Kay? Thanks.
You're going to far and asking too much. Turn back now!
You first sweetheart. Smooches.
How to make PFF actually work or how to read patch notes before making erroneous statements? The former I can show you in-game easily, the latter I can't help you with. The whining? I need to level up a bit more, that's the one thing you have an advantage over me in.
There's no need to fight like children about this. If you're not going to try to be constructive, take it to PMs or something. :U
Speaking of the current topic of discussion... I back Cyrone on PFF, as well. I think it being a 'team' passive doesn't really add anything, at all (and specifically to the current list of viable defensive team support options) and agree that if we want that functionality putting a +AoE advantage on Protection Field and/or Mindful Reinforcement is probably the superior idea.
Fixing the regeneration rate of it would probably go the longest way of making it a lot better then it currently is. Seeing Cyrone's numbers on it are markedly depressing, to be honest.
Here's how PFF isn't terribly bad.
As far as shield health, my main has 7,779 shields from PFF and from gear/specs has 70% damage resist. The only thing that needs changed that I see is for the power to have the "entering combat reduces regen by 50%" removed. Learn the power as I have and you too will see this.
For the life of me I still don't get what the ideal function of this limitation ever was. It's my understanding that PFF was essentially intended to be the opposite of regeneration in every way but that opposite in the quoted just doesn't work.
I'm not whining...:D
A forcefield generator "pet" in Gadgeteering.
Kinda like the one Traps Corruptors and Masterminds had in CoX, but working on (a non-suck version of) the PFF mechanics. Except instead of people individually having shield health, the Force Field generator has a huge pool of shield that scales with the number of people being effected by it and is shared by all of them.
Could be OP, or complete crap, I dunno. I really like the idea, but I think it'd be a pain to find the right numbers to make it balanced.
I never said it was terribly bad, I said it could use improvement without reaching toward the realm of being overpowered.
Adjusting the recharge would help, but not hitting Regen levels would be hard, and if you did then it would outshine Regen because you would have basically a Double Health bar, as opposed to a true shield.
What I was suggesting wasn't trying to change its performance, just double its function.
Going for a combo breaker here.
*looks at personal signature picture, looks at Roadwulf's suggested PFF change, looks back to signature* Enough said.
Yanno, I rarely agree with you, but I think on this case I'm going to have to say I wouldn't mind a few more supportive pet options n Gadgeteering and that would be an interesting/fun way of getting a team FF effect into place.
Not sure that'd be a great idea on MR.
If MR functioned as it does now but had an AOE advantage with nothing else changed that would essentially give another large team wide heal with no cone to limit it. It would be Sentinel Aura (pre-nerf) all over again since the entire team being attacked enough to drop the shields is a rarity. That advantage would need to drastically cut or eliminate the healing function of MR...or have a really really small AOE range.
Even on PF there'd be problems considering how easy it is to spam shields and considering the order defenses go in. All you'd need is someone with a lot of energy, possibly in support role, spamming PF to make the team unkillable against anything that doesn't penetrate shields.
Actually I really admire your PFF tanking. Making the best of a bad situation should always be commended.
The main problem I have with PFF is the order of stacking when it comes to Suplimentary Shields. PFF, as I recall, is always on top, so putting up Protection Field or (the Telepathing one), does notthing to help the regeneration of PFF, and so you spend alot of time fighting your own power trying to keep it up.
Field Surge obviously helps, but not as much as it should.
If we could just manage to get them to change this portion of the functionality, basically that other shields activated are on top of PFF.
Also a functionality change to Protection Field would be nice, were "If the shield ends at full term, whatever is left recharges PFF". Could be an advantage, but maybe make ita 1 point since its use is conditional upon using PFF.
Played ME3 (loads of shield generators in that game) and thought the same thing. Main issue I'd see with it is that the pet would need to be really fragile otherwise it's essentially just a perma shield (another idea is to make the shield pool unable to regenerate in combat). In PvP(dueling or hero games) with pet targeting being what it is...there might be an issue. I'll put it like that for now.
I think having it kill the secondary effect of the thing in question is a fair advantage, and maybe killing the field HP a bit to compensate for the fact it's hitting your whole team (or n number of targets within y range of initial target, maybe capping it at 2 additional targets [total 3 hit]).
Increase in energy cost wouldn't be a bad downside to go along with all that as well (putting it's energy costs at the Team_Heal scalar instead).
You do make some compelling arguments that it may be a bit more complicated then just adding an advantage to do it - there'd have to be some give/take to make it so that it was a viable and attractive option, but not an overpowering one at the same time.
(After all it's the case with all other passives, no matter how good or bad they are)
I don't really see the goal of making this a stronger IDF or a clone of AoRP.
Either increase the regen rate or make the other bubbles be hit first, and you have a defensive passive that's not worse than Regen.
As it stands, I love Regen and PFF as they are.
First just got a boost, second could use some as well, but I don't see why make it yet another "I must play with others or I can't do crap" support passive.