Well, I won't disrespect you or belittle you for liking something that I do not, but I won't beat around the bush or be reserved in telling you that I personally do not like it. You have every right to like something and do something that makes you happy. Far be it for me, or anyone, to tell you NOT to like or do something.
(note: I am using a broad generalization with "you" I refer to nobody in particular)
Well, I won't disrespect you or belittle you for liking something that I do not, but I won't beat around the bush or be reserved in telling you that I personally do not like it. You have every right to like something and do something that makes you happy. Far be it for me, or anyone, to tell you NOT to like or do something.
(note: I am using a broad generalization with "you" I refer to nobody in particular)
S'actly. Giving someone crap for liking something you don't is also kind of silly, no matter how terrible you think it is at the end of the day. Or trying to explain why what they like is so terrible without being invited to do so, and the like.
We all have something that we like that other people may question for whatever reason, after all.
What it comes down to is this. The vast majority of people who like Twilight are people who don't understand literature. The people who don't like Twilight are composed of two groups. The larger group is people who don't understand literature and those who do. But in this group the latter respects the opinion of the former.
This can be applied to movies as well. People who understand the art of narrative works tend to find the Star Wars prequel trilogies dull. Just as an example of a common criticism that I've heard and also levy against the movies is that the prequel trilogies are a 3 movie character study on Anakin where in no character development takes place. There is a lot of focusing on irrelevant points in the story.
Phantom Menace in particular had a unique issue. It was supposedly made primarily to appeal to kids right? I mean that's what Lucas said right? Then why does it start out with a boring scene of boring jedis with wooden acting discussing trade agreements and politics? What kind of kid understands trade agreements, embargos, commerce blockades, and politics... or even finds them exciting?
George Lucas doesn't narrative art, which is the big problem. When the original trilogy was first made, Lucas had to contend with a lot of oversight from 20th Century Fox. However all of the narrative works that he has made that had no oversight on whatsoever have been abysmal failures. Take for instance Howard the Duck, or dare I mention it, the Star Wars Holiday Special. The lack of oversight also lead to the atrocities that are the revised editions of the original trilogy. Which had such faux pas as blocking the audience's entire view with irrelevant CGI clutter of droids and critters when Luke and Obi Wan first ride into Mos Eisley.
I won't get into any more details but there you have it. My two cents on why people buy into stuff that aren't exactly very good as far as art goes.
But all of that said, yeah. If you like it, good for you. Your money isn't wasted on it because in the end all that matters is that you have fun, and money spent on fun is not money wasted... unless you spent your rent money on it. However, please don't be pretentious enough to refer to something as art if you don't know as much as you think you do about art.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that was actually Jacob that did the whole chewing and baby raping thing... I didn't read that part... I basically fired the books in a kiln after I got too sick of it. They were given to me by my aunt because "all young girls in their teens and 20s like Twilight, and you like to read." Never mind the fact that that at the time I was in my late 20s and have a very refined literary pallet.
I was already touched before I read any of the books. But touched is the operative word here... in the head...
I don't normally allow others to unduly influence my reading choices...but this series seemed pretty clearly to not have me in its target demographics so I gave it a pass. I have read any number of books that I found lacking, but I dont believe that my dislike for a piece of art qualifies it as 'bad'.
Except the movie Cutthroat Island. Everyone associated with that piece of filth is evil and should be ashamed of themselves.
What it comes down to is this. The vast majority of people who like Twilight are people who don't understand literature. The people who don't like Twilight are composed of two groups. The larger group is people who don't understand literature and those who do. But in this group the latter respects the opinion of the former.
Seems like a pretty big generalization.
I don't think I was clear, my point isn't that I don't want you guys to say its bad, but can we stop with the "reading twilight makes people kill themselves" jokes. It's pretty disrespectful to the author all things considered, so at least reserve it to when you have read the books....
I don't think I was clear, my point isn't that I don't want you guys to say its bad, but can we stop with the "reading twilight makes people kill themselves" jokes. It's pretty disrespectful to the author all things considered, so at least reserve it to when you have read the books....
Yes, because the author, who wrote about a teenage girl wanting to kill herself, and attempting to several times in the novel after her boyfriend dumped her is something all teenagers should aspire for. :rolleyes: Seriously, try and reinterpret that dross any which way you want but that's the exact message written.
Yes, because the author, who wrote about a teenage girl wanting to kill herself, and attempting to several times in the novel after her boyfriend dumped her is something all teenagers should aspire for. :rolleyes: Seriously, try and reinterpret that dross any which way you want but that's the exact message written.
Exactly, the protagonist is someone you're supposed to be able to identify with and root for. Especially in Twilight. Basically, Bella's personality being as non-existent as it is actually a narrative technique which is designed to allow the reader/viewer/gamer/whoever-is-experiencing-the-narrative to insert themselves into the character. This is done a on occasion in books, rarely in movies or tv shows, and quite a bit in video games (Deus Ex's JC Denton, Mass Effect's male version of shepard, Link from the Zelda series, and the list goes on).
So we have Bella, a character whose personality is designed to (even if not intentionally, I make no judgement either way) to allow the reader to step into her life and feel what she feels. We have a kind of emotional sync going on between the fictional character and the reader. This is actually a large part of why Twilight is so successful. Because the readers really identify with Bella. It's also why there's Team Edward and Team Jacob, they're the choice in boyfriend that those readers would have made. Then what happens? She tries to kill herself, repeatedly. Emotional sync + suicidal tendencies. Not a good combination.
It's not to say that the book makes people want to kill themselves. It's also not to say that the book encourages it. But it is to say that there is the potential and it may have been a component cause in a number of suicides.
(edit)
As an aside, for people like me whose job is actually in a field involving the construction of narrative works of art, the books do actually tend to make you want to /wrists but for an entirely different reason; because death is preferable to finishing the series.
Yes, because the author, who wrote about a teenage girl wanting to kill herself, and attempting to several times in the novel after her boyfriend dumped her is something all teenagers should aspire for. :rolleyes: Seriously, try and reinterpret that dross any which way you want but that's the exact message written.
Exactly right...and as someone who knows two self harmers (and one of my characters is a self harmer of sorts), I do feel that any 'glamorization' of self harm is poor form, in the same way size zero models are the 'stars' for the anorexia community. Yes...im not saying that these things consciously make people want to do silly things, but subconsciously maybe...who knows?
But..as someone who has been forced into seeing the films due to my work, I still go by my previous quote....'MY BRAIN IS ANGRY!!' ... and no, I haven't now do i wish to read the books.
I was talking with a roommate who 's more up on literary conventions. I'm just a video game programmer, she's actually a published writer. The conversation went like this...
"Hey, you know how a narrative work will sometimes give the protagonist a really bland personality in order to get the reader, viewer, or player to project themselves into the character, thus allowing them to better see through the protagonist's eyes?"
"Yeah, why?"
"Any idea if that convention even has a name?"
"Uh, not sure. Let me check TV Tropes on the Twilight article."
I just about lost it, I was laughing hysterically.
Yes, because the author, who wrote about a teenage girl wanting to kill herself, and attempting to several times in the novel after her boyfriend dumped her is something all teenagers should aspire for. :rolleyes: Seriously, try and reinterpret that dross any which way you want but that's the exact message written.
I could be wrong but Bellla never once attempts suicide, she feels without purpose or whatever without Edward and finds she can fill the gap with adrenaline pumped action. Sure, she's an idiot, but she is not trying to kill herself, or at least thats how I remember it.
Actually, as I understood it, her sense of Edward always being there to protect her meant that she felt that if she was to do something really risky, she sorta could... Hear him? I presumed it was a hallucinatory sound caused by her illogical desire for someone which was never really explained or developed upon, or perhaps a cry from her subconscious saying:
"heyyy, Bella, this is your inner you, and I'm telling ya, you've really messed things up, you know? Everyone human is beginning to dislike you, you're generally being a terrible person, and it's really uncomfortable being inside you while you're a'thinking about why you're not really romantically interested in the obvious werewo- oh what, you hadn't figured it out HELLO, MAINBRAIN ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID? Listen, I can't exactly leave this skull without killing both of us, so here, listen to a pre-mebered Edward, don't do anything stup-WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHAT WHAT WHAT"
... Why does my imagination make Bella's inner monologue sound like sorta like the Fonz, sorta?
Anyway, let's see what brought about this Twilight discussion as it seems highly off topic for this thread...
*looks up the thread*
OH GOD IT WAS MY FAULT, I INADVERTENTLY UNLEASHED TWILIGHT UPON THIS FORUM THREAD BY TALKING ABOUT A HEROCLICHE MASH!
Forgive me, my forumites, for I have sinned indirectly...
By the way, another popular cliche is the Terminator turned good. You've all seen them, you could populate all of Missouri (not chosen for any particular reason) with the amount there are in the game.
They're robots, they're human-shaped, they've got metal arms on one side and metal legs and are trying to stay secret yet don't even try to hide their robotic parts
("that's a... uh... prosthetic! Y'see, I lost my arm in the war!"
Which war?
"Uh.... The war against the... Uh... French!"
As far as I know... Actually, never mind, there was that Gadroon invasion from some second generation invaders who've been on here, that started in France, so that counts.
"Phew!")
and yet are apparently capable of keeping their roboticness secret.
Oh, and they're often from the future, due to the Terminator thing, meaning they understand all current technology, even if it's thousands of years in the future, even though even most kids today can't figure out record players without googling online, because they're old technology, and that's only what, 20-30 years since they were the main form of audio playback before casettes? I guess the future gets really stagnant with the march of technology in some aspects, eh?
Taking inconsiderate risks just for the thrill of it is a better role-model than suicide?
Let's all ride bikes like crazy or risk getting raped by rilling-up the wrong guys, shall we?
Come on, the point is, the movies are filled with strawberry cream; and we just joke rather than be rude about those.
Now, for a cold analysis...
FIRST OPUS:
A bland girl, more than obviously depressive, with only a couple of misfit friends, in a gloomy town where sun never shines (well not directly, that why the vamps are there, right?)...
Sure, no suicidal tendencies...
Then comes a immortal emo, who wants nothing more than doing her and bleed her dry...
Ok, perfectly normal, right...?
Btw, immortal <-> emo, catch the irony of that one?
Now you get a native american, long-hair, not too sure of himself, but nice to the girl...
Mkay, let's say here enters the "good-friend-that-wants-more-than-friendship"...
No bowls, but still a decent guy.
Things go along and, of course, out of the whole town, suicide-girl gets picked as the arch-prey of a redhead vamp hottie, and his soon-to-be-dead mate. Some fights later, she still survives, is bitten and yet doesn't turn.
Mkay, let's go for a technicality, sure.
SECOND OPUS:
Suicide-girl has the hots for emo-vamp.
He wants to... but can't, it's just so terrible...
(Target audience: first timers with a *@$µ-block symptom...)
Nice friend turns into a baddie werewolf.
Wait! From nerd to quarterback!!!!
(Woohoo, again, target audience: nerds envious of the football captain / girls swooning over his pects)
To quote LMFAO: Gurl look at dat body!
Carrying on!
More fights and half backed predictions.
Blahblahblah, found nothing else of any interest in that one.
Oh except the Volturi, you know: REAL vampires...
Oh I forgot: nice Mary-Sueing -> Volturi magic just doesn't work on her, but does fine on everyone else...
THIRD OPUS:
Moar fights!
And finally a somewhat... yeah, maybe... interesting dilemma: the friend that never gave up, or the lover-boy that can't...
Let's add some sugar on the "We'll do it after prom" promise...
(again, target audience: first timers, oh gee)
Ok, I'll stop here as I've yet to suffer through the last 2...
BUT from the echoes I got: wolfie-boy "imprinting" on the unborn daughter of the chick he wants to get, just cause another got her first????
Oh boy.
Yeah for moral values.
Let's all say together: "I can't do you, so please, allow me to do your unborn girl when she gets of age"...
-takes a deep breath-
Ok, NOW I can understand if you get outraged because I finally spilled my poison all over something you like.
However, note that I made an informed critic of the movies.
Thanks mom for making me go with you watch those...
(Note to self: bring PsP next time!!!)
I just hate the stuff, that's just my view, nothing says I'm right.
You're perfectly entitled to your view.
So if seeing bad comments on a forum about a book / movie you liked affects you that much, state it, but don't feel forced to defend it time and again, you'll only push people to explain their negative view of the work.
A bit like, to get back to the topic of this thread, an uber-all-powerful-demon pestering people in Caprice to RP with it...
I would never spill hate on a topic unless asked first.
Be it here or in Caprice.
Sure, I'd giggle behind my screen, maybe I'd PM some friends and joke in a private channel, but I'd never call out to that person.
Out of respect...
Unless called out first...
Like here...
Then all Hell breaks loose...
Bad.
Seriously, the only bright moment with this Twilight hype is when one realizes that with time nobody will even remember this pitiful excuse for literature.
I tried to read this twice and each time I failed. Its equally awful in english and polish, certainly nothing was lost in translation. I feel sorry for person who had to translate this. Hopefully they paid her enough for the unavoidable mental damage.
This book is so bad, it would make a great animu script.
I'm certainly not an elitist. I like Harry Potter and Avengelyne, i love pulp movies and stories but I can't stand Twilight.
Anyway, let's see what brought about this Twilight discussion as it seems highly off topic for this thread...
*looks up the thread*
OH GOD IT WAS MY FAULT, I INADVERTENTLY UNLEASHED TWILIGHT UPON THIS FORUM THREAD BY TALKING ABOUT A HEROCLICHE MASH!
Forgive me, my forumites, for I have sinned indirectly...
Sorry, but as once Twilight is unleashed on a thread, it never goes away. Twilight is the herpes of forum threads. As such, it's an unforgivable sin. You will go to Hell. You will be grilled, and then there will be kabobs.
Why does that not surprise me? Oh right that's because the Japanese have an odd fascination with bad writing and literature and anything that deals with gross amounts of flash but no substance they are all over. Sorry anime nerds.
Why does that not surprise me? Oh right that's because the Japanese have an odd fascination with bad writing and literature and anything that deals with gross amounts of flash but no substance they are all over. Sorry anime nerds.
As if that is any different from any American audience
American cinema isn't failing as hard as anime. We're just more accustomed to the good stuff, so the mediocre things make us gag and wretch like spoiled rich kids being offered a country hamburger.
No it just gave us the much hyped but ultimately below average Avatar.
I still don't understand why people liked that movie. I still think there was subliminal messaging hidden in it some where cause that movie was awful. But then again, considering how much diarrhea was being spewed in that awful dialog I guess they had to rely on the visuals to sell the movie.
Uh, that's a graphic novel, which means it's not anime. What's more, it says the adaptation is by Young Kim which is a Korean name, not Japanese.
Just saying...
Aaaahhhhh, this good old debate...
Reminds you of something Quincy? XD
(We had a very heated debate about this too)
Where to start...
Ok if we wanna use accurate and precise terms, I suppose the first thing is to avoid blanket terms.
So, as you stated since the author seems obviously Korean, let's call it a "Manhwa", and not a graphical novel, as that covers the whole range of printed drawings.
Now, if we want to use less accurate terms and start using blankets, let's see what we have.
I don't know... I saw this book in Books a Million today. Actually went out to look at it. It didn't seem very animated to me. The pictures didn't even move unless I was turning pages. Even then, it didn't seem to work as a flip book. I think I'll wait till it's actually animated before I consider calling it an Anime.
I'm willing to be liberal enough to call it a manga, but only with reservations of it not being from Japan... But even then, it was more of a Light Book than a Manga. So... what I'd call it is a Korean Light Book. I'd apprehensively go "ehh" at the idea of it being a Manga but won't belabor the point.
Actually, as a shoujo manga, it honestly wouldn't seem as out of place as the original work. In fact, come to think of it, the main problem with it is that there isn't ENOUGH potential love interests in Twilight for it to get into the harem genre.
Sparkles are pretty common for that genre, so that's sorta... fine.
Oh god I'm justifying it spreading what is WRONG with me?
Actually, as a shoujo manga, it honestly wouldn't seem as out of place as the original work. In fact, come to think of it, the main problem with it is that there isn't ENOUGH potential love interests in Twilight for it to get into the harem genre.
Sparkles are pretty common for that genre, so that's sorta... fine.
Oh god I'm justifying it spreading what is WRONG with me?
No it just gave us the much hyped but ultimately below average Avatar.
That was actually pretty successful. Moneywise. We're better at slapping special effects on something than anyone else. Then we convince them it's going to be awesome...
...until you realize you just painted with all the colors of the wind.
Let's be honest, the only reason specific movie titles and such do so well is because of a certain name in this day and age. Hell the movie Titanic had nothing to do with the actual Titanic (and was only marginally historically accurate), and the only reason it did so well was because a bunch of teenage girls (statistically proven) kept going to see it because of DiCapprio. Gone are the days when people actually go see a movie for its own merits. It's only good if it has a big name director, big name actor or both behind it. And the more flash the movie has the greater chances it has.
Let's be honest, the only reason specific movie titles and such do so well is because of a certain name in this day and age. Hell the movie Titanic had nothing to do with the actual Titanic (and was only marginally historically accurate), and the only reason it did so well was because a bunch of teenage girls (statistically proven) kept going to see it because of DiCapprio. Gone are the days when people actually go see a movie for its own merits. It's only good if it has a big name director, big name actor or both behind it. And the more flash the movie has the greater chances it has.
You mean those days ever existed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHHf73B8D8#t=47m0s
I think not. Here we have a mid 1960s tv show showing a woman from the late 1930s talking about catching "the Clark Gable movie." She was probably meaning Gone With the Wind but may have been another, earlier movie.
You mean those days ever existed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHHf73B8D8#t=47m0s
I think not. Here we have a mid 1960s tv show showing a woman from the late 1930s talking about catching "the Clark Gable movie." She was probably meaning Gone With the Wind but may have been another, earlier movie.
Clark Gable was a big name, but there are movies that came out people still saw that didn't require a big name attached to it. I mean really, did anyone know George Lucas or Star Wars before it came out?
But then it was released by quite popular film company.
As for SW itself i never really liked this IP.
It's a story which was to be a modern tale of good and evil, but always had a rather vague morality.
Luke wanted to get into the Imperial Academy but later had no problems with slaying en masse imperial guys, because, you know, certainly they weren't just misguided fools. No second thoughts, slay them all, they are certainly evil, all of them.
Then came so called expanded universe and Kyp Duron. Sure, its okay to destroy whole solar system. Don't mind about people of Caridia. Families? Everyday jobs? Who cares, they are imperial, they are EVIL!
Because murder and genocide are ok if you are doing this for teh greater good.
This series has always lacked a sense of direction. I'm not sure if It ever had any.
I still don't understand why people liked that movie. I still think there was subliminal messaging hidden in it some where cause that movie was awful. But then again, considering how much diarrhea was being spewed in that awful dialog I guess they had to rely on the visuals to sell the movie.
.
Yup im in that club there's just to many niggly little things about the movie that spoiled it for me and having just watched it again on channel 4 (uk tv channel) to me its cutting edge effects have dated badly.
That was actually pretty successful. Moneywise. We're better at slapping special effects on something than anyone else. Then we convince them it's going to be awesome...
...until you realize you just painted with all the colors of the wind.
The thing is I like SFX heavy films specially action/sci-fi I love the transformers films even though there's more story in a cyborg-ninja-cat-daemon-girl-succubus bio
Clark Gable was a big name, but there are movies that came out people still saw that didn't require a big name attached to it. I mean really, did anyone know George Lucas or Star Wars before it came out?
That's hardly a good analogy. George Lucas wasn't in Star Wars and he actually had very little to do with its creation. He mainly sat in a chair and offered ideas while 20th Century Fox made all the actual decisions; for Original Trilogy anyway. Leonardo DiCaprio was actually in Titanic, and people went to see his movies simply because he was in them. It has always been this way. Either because they have seen other movies and liked them enough that the person developed a reputation for making good movies, or because they are attracted to the person.
The same goes for books. Back in the 19th century, Mark Twain commented about Jane Austen's books. He didn't criticize the books, he criticized her. After reading the first book he read from her, he was more concerned with the fact that she wrote a book than with the content of said book.
(EDIT) I'd have to say that I'm the same way about George Lucas as Mark Twain was about Jane Austen. There is nothing George Lucas has made where he called all the shots and it didn't completely suck. Star Wars Christmas Special, Howard the Duck, Star Wars Special Edition, and the Star Wars Prequels.(END EDIT)
Things have always been more about who made an individual work than it is about the individual work. Anybody who treats each individual work as if it exists in a vacuum are aberrant.
I'm not saying that this is the way it should, just that it is the way it always has been.
There are plenty of movies that do well despite not having any big name actors in them. Even so they are the minority. Its no secret that one of the factors considered in the decision to produce a movie is, "who can we get to play the lead ?"
Since I feel like derailing this derail further, anyone else's mind screaming BETRAYAL after seeing the commercial for Tim Burton's Dark Shadows?
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I dont remember the TV show being a comedy. I normally like Tim Burton/Johnny Depp/Helena Bonham Carter projects. I am not so sure about this one.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I dont remember the TV show being a comedy. I normally like Tim Burton/Johnny Depp/Helena Bonham Carter projects. I am not so sure about this one.
I can understand trying to take the angle of an 18th century man in a 21st century world, I get that a lot. What I don't get is slapstick comedy like they are trying to compete with The Three Stooges. Dark Shadows was never that.
I'm old enough to have watched and enjoyed the original Dark Shadows soap-opera when it first ran on television. Its devoted fandom has made that series a cult classic, and I anticipate them being really p!ssed-off by this treatment.
Tim Burton may be counting on this comical version appealing to a broader audience than just the core fans. We'll see. As I liked DS and generally don't care for Tim Burton's style, I'm afraid he's already lost me.
About the original topic, I don't really mind demons or god characters when they don't appear to be omnipotent, like greek gods, which could be killed, but when I read biographies that say that they are so powerful that he/she can kill even gods and everything just by moving it's nose, I thinks it's cheap and boring.
About the original topic, I don't really mind demons or god characters when they don't appear to be omnipotent, like greek gods, which could be killed, but when I read biographies that say that they are so powerful that he/she can kill even gods and everything just by moving it's nose, I thinks it's cheap and boring.
Just a technical correction- Greek gods could not be killed; they were truly immortal. Norse gods could be killed, though. You are correct that Greek gods were not omnipotent, though- they were flawed and fallible and tended to demonstrate a remarkable lack of common sense. And they were all about petty struggles for power...
Ah, thanks for the correction, I thought they could die (even if if was much harder than to kill a human)
and yeah, common sense wasn't too common for them, it was like a big supernatural soap opera.
Sentinel kind of ripped Ares in half. Now that's Marvel's Ares, and I try to forget about it because after the miniseries they had of him before that event I really liked him, but honestly the thing about gods is this:
If they can't die, what keeps them from becoming stagnant and boring?
If they can't die, what keeps them from becoming stagnant and boring?
Petty power struggles, family feuds, and plain good old fashion bickering. It's the reason why the Real Housewives of (INSERT COUNTY HERE) shows are so popular. Nothing REALLY happens on those shows, but billions of people tune in every week to see the latest cat fight or pointless argument.
Sentinel kind of ripped Ares in half. Now that's Marvel's Ares, and I try to forget about it because after the miniseries they had of him before that event I really liked him, but honestly the thing about gods is this:
If they can't die, what keeps them from becoming stagnant and boring?
How is that exactly different from any comic book character? Batman is mortal but it doesn't matter because he will never die, even if killed by one of the villains from his own rogues gallery. So, the real question is; what has kept people interested in the character of Batman for so many decades?
How is that exactly different from any comic book character? Batman is mortal but it doesn't matter because he will never die, even if killed by one of the villains from his own rogues gallery. So, the real question is; what has kept people interested in the character of Batman for so many decades?
If we are going to use the comic book argument. Then you might as well just end it here. Insanity rules, logic dies and stories get trashed simply so they can print a shocking title or cover image.
Its not the fact that popular characters, like batman, cant die. That's not really a problem, ANY story revolving around a central character has to deal with that problem. Its the fact that popular characters often DO die, and then come back again and again making the event all but meaningless.
Comments
(note: I am using a broad generalization with "you" I refer to nobody in particular)
S'actly. Giving someone crap for liking something you don't is also kind of silly, no matter how terrible you think it is at the end of the day. Or trying to explain why what they like is so terrible without being invited to do so, and the like.
We all have something that we like that other people may question for whatever reason, after all.
What it comes down to is this. The vast majority of people who like Twilight are people who don't understand literature. The people who don't like Twilight are composed of two groups. The larger group is people who don't understand literature and those who do. But in this group the latter respects the opinion of the former.
This can be applied to movies as well. People who understand the art of narrative works tend to find the Star Wars prequel trilogies dull. Just as an example of a common criticism that I've heard and also levy against the movies is that the prequel trilogies are a 3 movie character study on Anakin where in no character development takes place. There is a lot of focusing on irrelevant points in the story.
Phantom Menace in particular had a unique issue. It was supposedly made primarily to appeal to kids right? I mean that's what Lucas said right? Then why does it start out with a boring scene of boring jedis with wooden acting discussing trade agreements and politics? What kind of kid understands trade agreements, embargos, commerce blockades, and politics... or even finds them exciting?
George Lucas doesn't narrative art, which is the big problem. When the original trilogy was first made, Lucas had to contend with a lot of oversight from 20th Century Fox. However all of the narrative works that he has made that had no oversight on whatsoever have been abysmal failures. Take for instance Howard the Duck, or dare I mention it, the Star Wars Holiday Special. The lack of oversight also lead to the atrocities that are the revised editions of the original trilogy. Which had such faux pas as blocking the audience's entire view with irrelevant CGI clutter of droids and critters when Luke and Obi Wan first ride into Mos Eisley.
I won't get into any more details but there you have it. My two cents on why people buy into stuff that aren't exactly very good as far as art goes.
But all of that said, yeah. If you like it, good for you. Your money isn't wasted on it because in the end all that matters is that you have fun, and money spent on fun is not money wasted... unless you spent your rent money on it. However, please don't be pretentious enough to refer to something as art if you don't know as much as you think you do about art.
I don't normally allow others to unduly influence my reading choices...but this series seemed pretty clearly to not have me in its target demographics so I gave it a pass. I have read any number of books that I found lacking, but I dont believe that my dislike for a piece of art qualifies it as 'bad'.
Except the movie Cutthroat Island. Everyone associated with that piece of filth is evil and should be ashamed of themselves.
Seems like a pretty big generalization.
I don't think I was clear, my point isn't that I don't want you guys to say its bad, but can we stop with the "reading twilight makes people kill themselves" jokes. It's pretty disrespectful to the author all things considered, so at least reserve it to when you have read the books....
Yes, because the author, who wrote about a teenage girl wanting to kill herself, and attempting to several times in the novel after her boyfriend dumped her is something all teenagers should aspire for. :rolleyes: Seriously, try and reinterpret that dross any which way you want but that's the exact message written.
Exactly, the protagonist is someone you're supposed to be able to identify with and root for. Especially in Twilight. Basically, Bella's personality being as non-existent as it is actually a narrative technique which is designed to allow the reader/viewer/gamer/whoever-is-experiencing-the-narrative to insert themselves into the character. This is done a on occasion in books, rarely in movies or tv shows, and quite a bit in video games (Deus Ex's JC Denton, Mass Effect's male version of shepard, Link from the Zelda series, and the list goes on).
So we have Bella, a character whose personality is designed to (even if not intentionally, I make no judgement either way) to allow the reader to step into her life and feel what she feels. We have a kind of emotional sync going on between the fictional character and the reader. This is actually a large part of why Twilight is so successful. Because the readers really identify with Bella. It's also why there's Team Edward and Team Jacob, they're the choice in boyfriend that those readers would have made. Then what happens? She tries to kill herself, repeatedly. Emotional sync + suicidal tendencies. Not a good combination.
It's not to say that the book makes people want to kill themselves. It's also not to say that the book encourages it. But it is to say that there is the potential and it may have been a component cause in a number of suicides.
(edit)
As an aside, for people like me whose job is actually in a field involving the construction of narrative works of art, the books do actually tend to make you want to /wrists but for an entirely different reason; because death is preferable to finishing the series.
Exactly right...and as someone who knows two self harmers (and one of my characters is a self harmer of sorts), I do feel that any 'glamorization' of self harm is poor form, in the same way size zero models are the 'stars' for the anorexia community. Yes...im not saying that these things consciously make people want to do silly things, but subconsciously maybe...who knows?
But..as someone who has been forced into seeing the films due to my work, I still go by my previous quote....'MY BRAIN IS ANGRY!!' ... and no, I haven't now do i wish to read the books.
"Hey, you know how a narrative work will sometimes give the protagonist a really bland personality in order to get the reader, viewer, or player to project themselves into the character, thus allowing them to better see through the protagonist's eyes?"
"Yeah, why?"
"Any idea if that convention even has a name?"
"Uh, not sure. Let me check TV Tropes on the Twilight article."
I just about lost it, I was laughing hysterically.
"heyyy, Bella, this is your inner you, and I'm telling ya, you've really messed things up, you know? Everyone human is beginning to dislike you, you're generally being a terrible person, and it's really uncomfortable being inside you while you're a'thinking about why you're not really romantically interested in the obvious werewo- oh what, you hadn't figured it out HELLO, MAINBRAIN ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID? Listen, I can't exactly leave this skull without killing both of us, so here, listen to a pre-mebered Edward, don't do anything stup-WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHAT WHAT WHAT"
... Why does my imagination make Bella's inner monologue sound like sorta like the Fonz, sorta?
Anyway, let's see what brought about this Twilight discussion as it seems highly off topic for this thread...
*looks up the thread*
OH GOD IT WAS MY FAULT, I INADVERTENTLY UNLEASHED TWILIGHT UPON THIS FORUM THREAD BY TALKING ABOUT A HEROCLICHE MASH!
Forgive me, my forumites, for I have sinned indirectly...
By the way, another popular cliche is the Terminator turned good. You've all seen them, you could populate all of Missouri (not chosen for any particular reason) with the amount there are in the game.
They're robots, they're human-shaped, they've got metal arms on one side and metal legs and are trying to stay secret yet don't even try to hide their robotic parts
("that's a... uh... prosthetic! Y'see, I lost my arm in the war!"
Which war?
"Uh.... The war against the... Uh... French!"
As far as I know... Actually, never mind, there was that Gadroon invasion from some second generation invaders who've been on here, that started in France, so that counts.
"Phew!")
and yet are apparently capable of keeping their roboticness secret.
Oh, and they're often from the future, due to the Terminator thing, meaning they understand all current technology, even if it's thousands of years in the future, even though even most kids today can't figure out record players without googling online, because they're old technology, and that's only what, 20-30 years since they were the main form of audio playback before casettes? I guess the future gets really stagnant with the march of technology in some aspects, eh?
Let's all ride bikes like crazy or risk getting raped by rilling-up the wrong guys, shall we?
Come on, the point is, the movies are filled with strawberry cream; and we just joke rather than be rude about those.
Now, for a cold analysis...
FIRST OPUS:
A bland girl, more than obviously depressive, with only a couple of misfit friends, in a gloomy town where sun never shines (well not directly, that why the vamps are there, right?)...
Sure, no suicidal tendencies...
Then comes a immortal emo, who wants nothing more than doing her and bleed her dry...
Ok, perfectly normal, right...?
Btw, immortal <-> emo, catch the irony of that one?
Now you get a native american, long-hair, not too sure of himself, but nice to the girl...
Mkay, let's say here enters the "good-friend-that-wants-more-than-friendship"...
No bowls, but still a decent guy.
Things go along and, of course, out of the whole town, suicide-girl gets picked as the arch-prey of a redhead vamp hottie, and his soon-to-be-dead mate. Some fights later, she still survives, is bitten and yet doesn't turn.
Mkay, let's go for a technicality, sure.
SECOND OPUS:
Suicide-girl has the hots for emo-vamp.
He wants to... but can't, it's just so terrible...
(Target audience: first timers with a *@$µ-block symptom...)
Nice friend turns into a baddie werewolf.
Wait! From nerd to quarterback!!!!
(Woohoo, again, target audience: nerds envious of the football captain / girls swooning over his pects)
To quote LMFAO: Gurl look at dat body!
Carrying on!
More fights and half backed predictions.
Blahblahblah, found nothing else of any interest in that one.
Oh except the Volturi, you know: REAL vampires...
Oh I forgot: nice Mary-Sueing -> Volturi magic just doesn't work on her, but does fine on everyone else...
THIRD OPUS:
Moar fights!
And finally a somewhat... yeah, maybe... interesting dilemma: the friend that never gave up, or the lover-boy that can't...
Let's add some sugar on the "We'll do it after prom" promise...
(again, target audience: first timers, oh gee)
Ok, I'll stop here as I've yet to suffer through the last 2...
BUT from the echoes I got: wolfie-boy "imprinting" on the unborn daughter of the chick he wants to get, just cause another got her first????
Oh boy.
Yeah for moral values.
Let's all say together: "I can't do you, so please, allow me to do your unborn girl when she gets of age"...
-takes a deep breath-
Ok, NOW I can understand if you get outraged because I finally spilled my poison all over something you like.
However, note that I made an informed critic of the movies.
Thanks mom for making me go with you watch those...
(Note to self: bring PsP next time!!!)
I just hate the stuff, that's just my view, nothing says I'm right.
You're perfectly entitled to your view.
So if seeing bad comments on a forum about a book / movie you liked affects you that much, state it, but don't feel forced to defend it time and again, you'll only push people to explain their negative view of the work.
A bit like, to get back to the topic of this thread, an uber-all-powerful-demon pestering people in Caprice to RP with it...
I would never spill hate on a topic unless asked first.
Be it here or in Caprice.
Sure, I'd giggle behind my screen, maybe I'd PM some friends and joke in a private channel, but I'd never call out to that person.
Out of respect...
Unless called out first...
Like here...
Then all Hell breaks loose...
Bad.
-slithers back under her rock-
I tried to read this twice and each time I failed. Its equally awful in english and polish, certainly nothing was lost in translation. I feel sorry for person who had to translate this. Hopefully they paid her enough for the unavoidable mental damage.
This book is so bad, it would make a great animu script.
I'm certainly not an elitist. I like Harry Potter and Avengelyne, i love pulp movies and stories but I can't stand Twilight.
Sorry, but as once Twilight is unleashed on a thread, it never goes away. Twilight is the herpes of forum threads. As such, it's an unforgivable sin. You will go to Hell. You will be grilled, and then there will be kabobs.
Not enough rediculously large robots and magical girl transformations.
For that matter, Champions Online doesn't haven't enough. I for one especially want to see Magical Girl stuff.
hey, c'mon now, don't try to drag anime into this XD
Toooooo laaaaaaaate...
Attachment not found.
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It's amazing how applicable that is to most punch-based phenomenon.
EDIT: Might as well link the video.
Why does that not surprise me? Oh right that's because the Japanese have an odd fascination with bad writing and literature and anything that deals with gross amounts of flash but no substance they are all over. Sorry anime nerds.
As if that is any different from any American audience
I don't actually watch TV unless it's a historical document or an old cartoon. I hate reality tv with a passion.
No it just gave us the much hyped but ultimately below average Avatar.
Uh, that's a graphic novel, which means it's not anime. What's more, it says the adaptation is by Young Kim which is a Korean name, not Japanese.
Just saying...
I still don't understand why people liked that movie. I still think there was subliminal messaging hidden in it some where cause that movie was awful. But then again, considering how much diarrhea was being spewed in that awful dialog I guess they had to rely on the visuals to sell the movie.
You realize, anime is not limited to Japanese culture right?
Just saying...
Aaaahhhhh, this good old debate...
Reminds you of something Quincy? XD
(We had a very heated debate about this too)
Where to start...
Ok if we wanna use accurate and precise terms, I suppose the first thing is to avoid blanket terms.
So, as you stated since the author seems obviously Korean, let's call it a "Manhwa", and not a graphical novel, as that covers the whole range of printed drawings.
Now, if we want to use less accurate terms and start using blankets, let's see what we have.
I don't know... I saw this book in Books a Million today. Actually went out to look at it. It didn't seem very animated to me. The pictures didn't even move unless I was turning pages. Even then, it didn't seem to work as a flip book. I think I'll wait till it's actually animated before I consider calling it an Anime.
I'm willing to be liberal enough to call it a manga, but only with reservations of it not being from Japan... But even then, it was more of a Light Book than a Manga. So... what I'd call it is a Korean Light Book. I'd apprehensively go "ehh" at the idea of it being a Manga but won't belabor the point.
Sparkles are pretty common for that genre, so that's sorta... fine.
Oh god I'm justifying it spreading what is WRONG with me?
Answer...
That was actually pretty successful. Moneywise. We're better at slapping special effects on something than anyone else. Then we convince them it's going to be awesome...
...until you realize you just painted with all the colors of the wind.
You mean those days ever existed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHHf73B8D8#t=47m0s
I think not. Here we have a mid 1960s tv show showing a woman from the late 1930s talking about catching "the Clark Gable movie." She was probably meaning Gone With the Wind but may have been another, earlier movie.
Clark Gable was a big name, but there are movies that came out people still saw that didn't require a big name attached to it. I mean really, did anyone know George Lucas or Star Wars before it came out?
As for SW itself i never really liked this IP.
It's a story which was to be a modern tale of good and evil, but always had a rather vague morality.
Luke wanted to get into the Imperial Academy but later had no problems with slaying en masse imperial guys, because, you know, certainly they weren't just misguided fools. No second thoughts, slay them all, they are certainly evil, all of them.
Then came so called expanded universe and Kyp Duron. Sure, its okay to destroy whole solar system. Don't mind about people of Caridia. Families? Everyday jobs? Who cares, they are imperial, they are EVIL!
Because murder and genocide are ok if you are doing this for teh greater good.
This series has always lacked a sense of direction. I'm not sure if It ever had any.
Yup im in that club there's just to many niggly little things about the movie that spoiled it for me and having just watched it again on channel 4 (uk tv channel) to me its cutting edge effects have dated badly.
The thing is I like SFX heavy films specially action/sci-fi I love the transformers films even though there's more story in a cyborg-ninja-cat-daemon-girl-succubus bio
That's hardly a good analogy. George Lucas wasn't in Star Wars and he actually had very little to do with its creation. He mainly sat in a chair and offered ideas while 20th Century Fox made all the actual decisions; for Original Trilogy anyway. Leonardo DiCaprio was actually in Titanic, and people went to see his movies simply because he was in them. It has always been this way. Either because they have seen other movies and liked them enough that the person developed a reputation for making good movies, or because they are attracted to the person.
The same goes for books. Back in the 19th century, Mark Twain commented about Jane Austen's books. He didn't criticize the books, he criticized her. After reading the first book he read from her, he was more concerned with the fact that she wrote a book than with the content of said book.
(EDIT) I'd have to say that I'm the same way about George Lucas as Mark Twain was about Jane Austen. There is nothing George Lucas has made where he called all the shots and it didn't completely suck. Star Wars Christmas Special, Howard the Duck, Star Wars Special Edition, and the Star Wars Prequels.(END EDIT)
Things have always been more about who made an individual work than it is about the individual work. Anybody who treats each individual work as if it exists in a vacuum are aberrant.
I'm not saying that this is the way it should, just that it is the way it always has been.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I dont remember the TV show being a comedy. I normally like Tim Burton/Johnny Depp/Helena Bonham Carter projects. I am not so sure about this one.
I can understand trying to take the angle of an 18th century man in a 21st century world, I get that a lot. What I don't get is slapstick comedy like they are trying to compete with The Three Stooges. Dark Shadows was never that.
Tim Burton may be counting on this comical version appealing to a broader audience than just the core fans. We'll see. As I liked DS and generally don't care for Tim Burton's style, I'm afraid he's already lost me.
That is called a PRESENCE attack in the Pen and Paper game
Just a technical correction- Greek gods could not be killed; they were truly immortal. Norse gods could be killed, though. You are correct that Greek gods were not omnipotent, though- they were flawed and fallible and tended to demonstrate a remarkable lack of common sense. And they were all about petty struggles for power...
and yeah, common sense wasn't too common for them, it was like a big supernatural soap opera.
If they can't die, what keeps them from becoming stagnant and boring?
Petty power struggles, family feuds, and plain good old fashion bickering. It's the reason why the Real Housewives of (INSERT COUNTY HERE) shows are so popular. Nothing REALLY happens on those shows, but billions of people tune in every week to see the latest cat fight or pointless argument.
How is that exactly different from any comic book character? Batman is mortal but it doesn't matter because he will never die, even if killed by one of the villains from his own rogues gallery. So, the real question is; what has kept people interested in the character of Batman for so many decades?
If we are going to use the comic book argument. Then you might as well just end it here. Insanity rules, logic dies and stories get trashed simply so they can print a shocking title or cover image.
Its not the fact that popular characters, like batman, cant die. That's not really a problem, ANY story revolving around a central character has to deal with that problem. Its the fact that popular characters often DO die, and then come back again and again making the event all but meaningless.