Except that he isn't a hero because at heart, he isn't human. It's something that has always cast a shadow over the character, because he relates to normal people very much like a god among mortals. He is a benevolent god, but even with the attempts to humanize him, he is just too alien to be called one. He's good I fear, not because he learned to be, but because it's in the Krypton nature to act a certain way. It's kind of telling he usually only is "bad" when under mind control. He's never selfish, he never really fights with anyone and is in the wrong for bad reasons (apart from pure dystopia like the dark night returns, where EVERYONE is bad. Even in Kingdom Come it was him being good and acting according to his nature that caused all the problems) and he stands apart from other characters in doing so.
You could compare him to the silver surfer, who seems as bland but is actually a complex character that had severe moral choices. I don't think there's ever been a time where supes has not acted like a hero, and when you are always courageous, all the time, you really aren't. It's just your nature.
You don't have to be human to be a hero. Heroism isnt defined by one's race, but rather one's deeds.
If he was good only because its int he Krypton nature to act a certain way we wouldn't have Kryptonian villains.
Attempting to define never being selfish as an unheroic trait is abit of a stretch. Attempting to define choosing to do the right thing as an unheroic trait is similarly a stretch.
Choosing to act heroic does not define one as nonheroic.
You don't have to be human to be a hero. Heroism isnt defined by one's race, but rather one's deeds.
If he was good only because its int he Krypton nature to act a certain way we wouldn't have Kryptonian villains.
Attempting to define never being selfish as an unheroic trait is abit of a stretch. Attempting to define choosing to do the right thing as an unheroic trait is similarly a stretch.
Choosing to act heroic does not define one as nonheroic.
I think the problem with definition of hero is how people observe it. If you ask probably a goodly chunk of people, most people will define a hero as some unbeatable person who eats dirt and craps bullets, while taking down tons and tons of bad guys before breakfast without even breaking a sweat.
Frankly, that view is completely wrong. What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition. They complete it not because they have no way they couldn't fail, but because at any moment they could fail.
I don't consider Superman a hero because outside of a few deus plot points, his weakness and points that he would actually ever face adversity or challenge to his person or intellect is pretty sub par even on most levels. He's called Superman for a reason, because by all points he is super and beyond any scope we as humans can imagine. While he does deeds that a normal person doing would be heroic, such as saving a train full of passengers from falling off a cliff, it's not actually putting pressure or danger on him as a person and isn't exactly going to threaten his life, and generally, outside of the deus plot lines, he has no way to actually fail. I mean literally, DC had to create a being so powerful to beat Superman, and he did beat Superman regardless of fanboi reaction, and after all that plot line was said and done DC realized they made a villain so powerful no one could contest with him, not even Superman, so they nerfed him. Because not even gods, in DC Universe, are as strong as him (DC's words).
This is also why Batman has been falling out of being a hero in my eyes as well. Because of his intellect and genius and the fact he is suppose to be at and above the peak of human perfection, he really isn't going to be in situations where he is possibly gong to fail normally, so the challenges have to become more ridiculous. He's literally reached a point that he can rival Superman, to the point that people are saying that he could take Superman down if it came to blows.
In short, super powers doesn't make a person a hero. Going above and beyond the limits of said powers where you have a chance to actually fail, is. While people might see my view of these characters as a bit one sided, it's the same view I put on players in the game. Anyone set up to be omnipotent and unbeatable is a boring character. Say it's the person that makes them interesting, but even a loaf of bread gets stale after a few hours of sitting out.
I think the problem with definition of hero is how people observe it. If you ask probably a goodly chunk of people, most people will define a hero as some unbeatable person who eats dirt and craps bullets, while taking down tons and tons of bad guys before breakfast without even breaking a sweat.
Frankly, that view is completely wrong. What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition. They complete it not because they have no way they couldn't fail, but because at any moment they could fail.
I don't consider Superman a hero because outside of a few deus plot points, his weakness and points that he would actually ever face adversity or challenge to his person or intellect is pretty sub par even on most levels. He's called Superman for a reason, because by all points he is super and beyond any scope we as humans can imagine. While he does deeds that a normal person doing would be heroic, such as saving a train full of passengers from falling off a cliff, it's not actually putting pressure or danger on him as a person and isn't exactly going to threaten his life, and generally, outside of the deus plot lines, he has no way to actually fail. I mean literally, DC had to create a being so powerful to beat Superman, and he did beat Superman regardless of fanboi reaction, and after all that plot line was said and done DC realized they made a villain so powerful no one could contest with him, not even Superman, so they nerfed him. Because not even gods, in DC Universe, are as strong as him (DC's words).
This is also why Batman has been falling out of being a hero in my eyes as well. Because of his intellect and genius and the fact he is suppose to be at and above the peak of human perfection, he really isn't going to be in situations where he is possibly gong to fail normally, so the challenges have to become more ridiculous. He's literally reached a point that he can rival Superman, to the point that people are saying that he could take Superman down if it came to blows.
In short, super powers doesn't make a person a hero. Going above and beyond the limits of said powers where you have a chance to actually fail, is. While people might see my view of these characters as a bit one sided, it's the same view I put on players in the game. Anyone set up to be omnipotent and unbeatable is a boring character. Say it's the person that makes them interesting, but even a loaf of bread gets stale after a few hours of sitting out.
I agree that it isnt superpowers that makes a hero.
On the other hand I dont think, "What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition," is accurate.
The woman that dives into the water to save a drowning child, the man who rushes into the burning building to save a family, the soldier who leaves cover under fire to help a squad mate...all of these are people doing what a normal person could do. All of them are heroes in my opinion.
As I've said before elsewhere, there's one quality about Superman that says "hero" to me more than any other. He has the power to do anything, take anything that he wants, kill anyone who displeases him, without fear of anyone being able to punish him for it. He refuses to do that, even under extreme provocation or at great personal cost to himself, for no other reason than that it would violate what he believes to be right. Who among us would have the strength of character to do the same?
Superman doesn't use his power to enrich himself -- he devotes his whole life to protecting the weak and helping those in need. Superman doesn't exalt himself above humanity -- as Clark Kent he's down in the trenches with the rest of us working stiffs, trying to live as human a life as possible. The fact that he doesn't often face opponents who are strong enough to hurt or kill him doesn't negate the fact that he has in the past, repeatedly, and never backs down. Yet he also sometimes confronts challenges of an emotional or moral nature, which can't be solved by brute force, and demand as much from him as anyone else.
Superman not a hero? In some ways he's the greatest hero of all.
As I've said before elsewhere, there's one quality about Superman that says "hero" to me more than any other. He has the power to do anything, take anything that he wants, kill anyone who displeases him, without fear of anyone being able to punish him for it. He refuses to do that, even under extreme provocation or at great personal cost to himself, for no other reason than that it would violate what he believes to be right. Who among us would have the strength of character to do the same?
Superman doesn't use his power to enrich himself -- he devotes his whole life to protecting the weak and helping those in need. Superman doesn't exalt himself above humanity -- as Clark Kent he's down in the trenches with the rest of us working stiffs, trying to live as human a life as possible. The fact that he doesn't often face opponents who are strong enough to hurt or kill him doesn't negate the fact that he has in the past, repeatedly, and never backs down. Yet he also sometimes confronts challenges of an emotional or moral nature, which can't be solved by brute force, and demand as much from him as anyone else.
Superman not a hero? In some ways he's the greatest hero of all.
I am not a huge fan of Superman, but I agree completely.
I agree that it isnt superpowers that makes a hero.
On the other hand I dont think, "What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition," is accurate.
The woman that dives into the water to save a drowning child, the man who rushes into the burning building to save a family, the soldier who leaves cover under fire to help a squad mate...all of these are people doing what a normal person could do. All of them are heroes in my opinion.
Except you just described what I was referring to. A person going in doing something that they could fail out right and succeeding. That is the measure of a hero. Doing something that truly risks their own life or that they could fail at in spite of everything they do.
As I've said before elsewhere, there's one quality about Superman that says "hero" to me more than any other. He has the power to do anything, take anything that he wants, kill anyone who displeases him, without fear of anyone being able to punish him for it. He refuses to do that, even under extreme provocation or at great personal cost to himself, for no other reason than that it would violate what he believes to be right. Who among us would have the strength of character to do the same?
Superman doesn't use his power to enrich himself -- he devotes his whole life to protecting the weak and helping those in need. Superman doesn't exalt himself above humanity -- as Clark Kent he's down in the trenches with the rest of us working stiffs, trying to live as human a life as possible. The fact that he doesn't often face opponents who are strong enough to hurt or kill him doesn't negate the fact that he has in the past, repeatedly, and never backs down. Yet he also sometimes confronts challenges of an emotional or moral nature, which can't be solved by brute force, and demand as much from him as anyone else.
Superman not a hero? In some ways he's the greatest hero of all.
And that's what I call a deus point. While most people try to concern themselves over how strong he is, he has also proven time and again how intelligent he actually is to. It's the catch 22, most people just tend to think of him as a dumb, lumbering man in blue tights, but he is pretty smart. So dilemmas and issues that cross his path are as much a pittance to him as him being challenged to an arm wrestling contest. So, what writers try to do is either come up with moral or puzzles to "challenge" Superman, despite he has solved the dilemmas in the past before.
And trying to say his life as Clark Kent is made tougher by it. I don't think so. Since we know Clark Kent is his actual disguise, he has been known to quote at times how the human race amuses him. Do I consider it heroic that he doesn't go overboard and use his powers to enforce his own rules or something? Not really, not any more than I would consider the local police officer who doesn't abuse his power.
Superman is a character that has proven, time and again, he can pretty much out think and out muscle almost any situation. It's almost as basic as breathing now, it isn't so much as he is being heroic. Is he iconic? Sure, he's been around for nearly 100 years. He tends to be the trumpet for certain American ideals hence his catch phrase always being truth, justice and the American way.
Except you just described what I was referring to. A person going in doing something that they could fail out right and succeeding. That is the measure of a hero. Doing something that truly risks their own life or that they could fail at in spite of everything they do.
I was referring to your statement that a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do.
What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition..
Above and beyond normal capability is a definition of the word paranormal. You have stated (in the sentence quoted) that the traditional definition of a hero is someone with paranormal capabilities. That is the opposite of my position that one need not be capable of paranormal feats in order to be a hero.
It did just occur to me, did you mean above and beyond what a normal person WOULD do rather than COULD do ?
Even there its a stretch because normal people do heroic things every day.
As to Superman...of course you are entitled to your opinion. As much as I am not a fan of him, I tend to disagree with your position.
Above and beyond normal capability is a definition of the word paranormal. You have stated (in the sentence quoted) that the traditional definition of a hero is someone with paranormal capabilities. That is the opposite of my position that one need not be capable of paranormal feats in order to be a hero.
Above and beyond is risking your own life to do something. Now you might consider it within the capabilities of everyone to do it, but realistically, not everyone is actually capable of doing it. Now while many people will imagine they can do it easily, many people are not capable of doing this very basic thing. Honestly, when a catastrophe happens, either people get away from it or stand on the sidelines and watch it more times than likely, few actually go beyond that point and leap in to try and help those actually in danger.
Above and beyond is risking your own life to do something. Now you might consider it within the capabilities of everyone to do it, but realistically, not everyone is actually capable of doing it. Now while many people will imagine they can do it easily, many people are not capable of doing this very basic thing. Honestly, when a catastrophe happens, either people get away from it or stand on the sidelines and watch it more times than likely, few actually go beyond that point and leap in to try and help those actually in danger.
There is a difference between what people usually do or will do, and what people can do.
One does not have to risk one's life to be a hero in my opinion.
Jumping into deep water to save a drowning toddler would be heroic, in my opinion, even if it represents no risk to the rescuer's life.
Random funny story regarding a choice encounter my friends and I had when we were doing some light RP out in MC.
We had someone watching us, telepathically threatening to kill us all. I /target, and while the character may not be a god or a demon... sheesh.
She was THE owner of Club Caprice.
She'd be happy to kill anyone.
Parents died at the age of 9.
Dr. Destroyer may or may not be her father.
She was raised by Sapphire after her parents died.
So I decided to check out her build with the user profile thing. GASP. It was a PvP build perfectly specced out to kill anyone in a duel. I'd seen this exact build quite a few times too. The DU + Gauntlet Chainsaw might as well be patented by now!
Plus, she was RP-threatening my buddies. Who were on characters that were level 20 Munitions, a level 40 Soldier and a level 35 TK Lancer-Dual Pistols. When she started on me, I just said, straight up, 'No, we are not going to RP with you, please leave us alone.'
Promptly told to relax and ignored by person.
So, careful. If a god or demon starts threatening you in RP and you take your ball and go home, they might, GASP, ignore you! :O
Many know why Caprice has a bad rap. Ironically, the trolls and haters that say that Caprice is a terrible place often are the ones that instigate it to begin with by creating those exact type of personas that places like Goldshire on Moon Guard, Pocket D on Virtue, and Club Caprice in Champions are known for.
Random funny story regarding a choice encounter my friends and I had when we were doing some light RP out in MC.
We had someone watching us, telepathically threatening to kill us all. I /target, and while the character may not be a god or a demon... sheesh.
She was THE owner of Club Caprice.
She'd be happy to kill anyone.
Parents died at the age of 9.
Dr. Destroyer may or may not be her father.
She was raised by Sapphire after her parents died.
So I decided to check out her build with the user profile thing. GASP. It was a PvP build perfectly specced out to kill anyone in a duel. I'd seen this exact build quite a few times too. The DU + Gauntlet Chainsaw might as well be patented by now!
Plus, she was RP-threatening my buddies. Who were on characters that were level 20 Munitions, a level 40 Soldier and a level 35 TK Lancer-Dual Pistols. When she started on me, I just said, straight up, 'No, we are not going to RP with you, please leave us alone.'
Promptly told to relax and ignored by person.
So, careful. If a god or demon starts threatening you in RP and you take your ball and go home, they might, GASP, ignore you! :O
And people wonder why Caprice has a bad rap.
LOL I'm sure all this falls outside Champions Lore. Shame you cant ask Sapphire if she has a foster child at home
And did Dr Destroyer ***** around impregnating so many people? I have seen loads of his sprogs running around. Maybe he should have used a condom
LOL I'm sure all this falls outside Champions Lore. Shame you cant ask Sapphire if she has a foster child at home
And did Dr Destroyer ***** around impregnating so many people? I have seen loads of his sprogs running around. Maybe he should have used a condom
Spook had a disturbingly odd crush on Sapphire, and had his jetpack siezed for trying to peep on her.
Or at least he said that to get a rise out of people.
Re: "Caprice's owner", I haven't had a chance to interact with her, though I have met members of the Caprice management SG and never had a problem with them, a few seem like quite decent folk and reasonably good RPers.
There *is* established PnP lore on who owns Caprice: Lewis Frey, the master of disguise villain Masquerade in the 50s and 60s, who was captured by Black Mask in '71, released from prison in '85, and founded Caprice in 1995 (see Millennium City, p. 43). However, Cryptic has never put out a name, so I can't blame anyone for not knowing this, or even wanting to assume the identity. Nor do I think it's wise to argue the point if it's accepted by the bulk of the Caprice RP community.
As far as connections with Destroyer and Sapphire go: I try not to make fun of people's backstories, and I've certainly heard worse. If I interact with her, I'll treat her as being who she says he is, and inwardly retcon her to be Frey's granddaughter who's been made club manager and not belabor the point. I've had some bad experiences with lore advocates in WoW, and while I strongly prefer not to contradict canon, I find trying to "educate" people on lore in the middle of an RP and spoiling their fun to be really bad form If she claims power and abuses it with me or friends of mine, I'll simply let her go on doing her thing and try not to cross her path.
Re: "Caprice's owner", I haven't had a chance to interact with her, though I have met members of the Caprice management SG and never had a problem with them, a few seem like quite decent folk and reasonably good RPers.
There *is* established PnP lore on who owns Caprice: Lewis Frey, the master of disguise villain Masquerade in the 50s and 60s, who was captured by Black Mask in '71, released from prison in '85, and founded Caprice in 1995 (see Millennium City, p. 43). However, Cryptic has never put out a name, so I can't blame anyone for not knowing this, or even wanting to assume the identity. Nor do I think it's wise to argue the point if it's accepted by the bulk of the Caprice RP community.
As far as connections with Destroyer and Sapphire go: I try not to make fun of people's backstories, and I've certainly heard worse. If I interact with her, I'll treat her as being who she says he is, and inwardly retcon her to be Frey's granddaughter who's been made club manager and not belabor the point. I've had some bad experiences with lore advocates in WoW, and while I strongly prefer not to contradict canon, I find trying to "educate" people on lore in the middle of an RP and spoiling their fun to be really bad form If she claims power and abuses it with me or friends of mine, I'll simply let her go on doing her thing and try not to cross her path.
I kinda agree with some of this. I have had some fun, very light hearted RP with some of the Caprice Management, and I could imagine that the owner of Caprice would have employees working for them.
What I do think is that if someone is to make such a large leap of faith with their characters back story, then they should research some of the lore involved.
Its kind of like saying...'Spiderman and Wonderwoman had a child and he/she came to the city as Wonder-Spider Person'. The story would lack coherence due to the fact that the lore is not really behind them.
This relpy is kinda waffly but makes sense in my head
There *is* established PnP lore on who owns Caprice: Lewis Frey, the master of disguise villain Masquerade in the 50s and 60s, who was captured by Black Mask in '71, released from prison in '85, and founded Caprice in 1995 (see Millennium City, p. 43). However, Cryptic has never put out a name, so I can't blame anyone for not knowing this, or even wanting to assume the identity. Nor do I think it's wise to argue the point if it's accepted by the bulk of the Caprice RP community..
This is where i feel CO really falls down bits of lore like this should be in game it helps flesh out the world
I wonder if there was an assumption that people who wanted more "lore" should buy the appropriate books from Hero Games? Certainly the HG folks hoped that the MMO would generate more sales for them.
I wonder if there was an assumption that people who wanted more "lore" should buy the appropriate books from Hero Games? Certainly the HG folks hoped that the MMO would generate more sales for them.
That would be a shame if it was the case. I used to play CoH for a while and I'm sure the lore was far more accessible there.
Magic and other mystical forces are making a comeback in the casual tv and movie crowd.
Thor
Vampire Diaries (What I thought to be a twilight clone, is now one of my favourite tv shows, so much over the top gore and random humour ^^)
Twilight
Harry Potter
Doctor Who (To a certain extent, we had "The Impossible Planet" and "The Shakespear Code")
Sorcerers Apprentice
Ending of Mass Effect 3
Lord of the Rings
We also had older tv shows such as Buffy / Angel etc which were hugely popular at the time. Magic is suddenly no longer for gamers and enthusiasts, its much more prevailant today than it used to be. I'm not suprised there are a lot of magic based characters out there.
That would be a shame if it was the case. I used to play CoH for a while and I'm sure the lore was far more accessible there.
They didn't have almost 30 years of material to work off of CoH, and 98% of the game's necessary lore was only presented in that one work (being expressly written for that purpose).
Apples <-> Oranges. DCUO has pretty much the same issue Champions does in this regard, in that they just sort of expect you for the most part to either already be familiar with the characters, or willing to seek out alternate methods (such as reading the comics and/or other material as necessary) to find out more about X or Y.
Heck, they used a few semi-obscure characters even I had to look up here and there. :U
Wasn't near as fun as researching Champions was, though.
EDIT: For that matter, World of Warcraft and LotRO have similar issues (again either expecting familiarity or, at the least, looking through the Lore sections of their related wikis as the amount of lore available in-game vs. what is actually available is pretty shabby; Despite the fact both try to do a good job of it).
On all points, I'm agreeing with kittyotix on this one, and also agreeing with frozenbones.
However, it seems like 90% of the characters I encounter are magic-based. I know that the root of 'superpowers' in Champions Lore is based off a supernatural event (I think), but that's not where the pain comes in.
The annoyance is with the characters who live by the philosophy that 'magic is the most powerful force, and your guy doesn't use it so I can destroy you and you don't have a chance'. That, and the fact that anyone with a magic-based character can do damned near anything explainable with 'I haz magics', regardless of powerset. There's no fun in playing with someone who can mind-read, make your weapons turn to rotten wood, teleport you to hell, become intangible so your bullets go right through them (despite them not knowing you were even there), see through cloaking technology, extinguish flames with a handwave, put up impenetrable force shields at will, mind read and take over your mind with no effort, and otherwise get a freebie at metagaming/god-moding because 'you're magic'.
I'm sorry, but get the drop on Dr. Strange and put a bullet between his eyes and he'll die just like anyone else who takes a bullet to the head. Hell, even Thor can die (just like any Norse God, and even Egyptian and Greek ones).
I like the old D&D concept- yeah, magic is badass. It can do amazing things, things that normal people could never do. But it's not like snapping your fingers, making armpit noises, or forcing a belch: It requires precision, concentration, and time... some things that an acrobatic gun-monkey or super martial artist can make difficult, if not impossible. And most magic-users are useless in close quarters when you're beating their face to mush.
Magic gives good RPers something fun to toy with, and bad RPers an excuse to godmode because it's so vague as a power (though, really, it doesn't take much to specify what your magic specialty is).
As far as the demon players go... well, I have to admit, I don't like most of them. All I see is 'I can do X because I am a demon'. Well, last I checked you can destroy anything in material form. It may be tougher, it may not respond to the laws of human physiology- but a Rocket-Propelled HE grenade is going to leave a nasty mark on anything it hits (provided what it hits is still intact to assess). You can't sit and tell me your 'demon' is tougher than an Abrams tank (considering that he's level 6 and sits in Caprice looking for ERP all day).
Because of this, in character, I spill over my bias. When Wraith hears some demon talking big **** to intimidate someone, he walks over and embarasses them. Reminds them how stupid it is to talk down to mortals in a club full of superheroes dedicating to protecting those mortals- and that's something an immortal demon should consider, unless he's spent eons playing 'how big is the next booger I pull gonna be?'. He also asks why if they're so powerful, why they aren't ruling parts of the world or at least in the papers a little. And this is a guy with no real super power (although I have the vague 'killer instinct' as a power, and I discuss with a mature player how that could be used in a battle, provided we get into one). I love it.
I'm personally for the rule that your character should be able to do what's in his powerset, or at least something related to it (Wraith can fight with a knife, despite there being no knife attack. He knows a few martial arts quite proficiently, despite his melee attack being 'Bullet Beatdown').
"What is the measure of a god? Is it the scope of his power, or how he chooses to wield it?" - Teal'c
Gods and demons have their place, but they need to be written well, and carefully. A god or demon can be a fascinating character to watch unfold in a mortal realm when they choose to interact with it in an interesting way. Say, a god comes to the mortal plane, unable to alter events from it's own dimension and has to deal with one or many problems such as it's corporeal form is not able to contain it's power, either A) weakening the god considerably or The overload of power forcing the corporeal form to deteriorate over time. In my RPing history I have (still to my shame, but hey, we were all newbs once) tried to play the powerful god and/or demon, but I realised that characters without problems or flaws aren't interesting. How depressing would it be when this happens: "Oh no! A villain is terrorising my friend! Oh... I snapped my fingers and turned them to stardust. Well there goes that storyline."
One thing that should be noted in canon about gods: the Ban.
Source: Champions Villains, Volume 1, p. 227.
"Long ago, gods and spirits walked the Earth freely. That started to change around 700 BC. Prophets like Zoroaster and the Buddha taught mortals to worship truth, virtue, and law instead of parochial gods with all-too-human failings. As the new ethical religions spread and multiplied, the gods found it harder to manifest on Earth. When a preacher in Judea declared that men need not sacrifice to gods because God would sacrifice himself for Man, the Ban locked shut completely. No god walked the Earth for almost 2,000 years.Gods recruited mortal worshippers through persuasion instead of displays of power....
"The Ban weakened in 1938 with the start of the Superheroic Age, but gods still cannot visit the mortal world with ease.... Gods who want to act more directly have several options.
"Avatars: A god can materialize a body on Earth with a fraction of the gods full divine power...The weaker the avatar, the longer the god can remain on Earth. An avatar of no greater power than a standard superbeing can typically stay in the mortal world indefinitely, though this depends on the nature of the god and the pantheon.. many of the demon lords encountered by mystic heroes are actually such projections.... Mortal avatars usually fall in the same power range as other superbeings.
"Halfbreeds And Demigods: A more patient god can gain a divinely-powered agent in the person of a half-mortal child.... The Ban also applies only to full powered gods. Since the Ban closed, some gods had children of considerably lesser power.....
"Sacrifice: A sacrifice of sufficiently great spiritual energy enables a god to enter the mortal world for a few minutes and wield its full power....
"Nexus Points And Gates: Some locations naturally intersect with Faerie (or other planes where gods dwell), and powerful mystics can create such portals between worlds. A god can stand in such a portal and use his full power on nearby areas, because he hasnt left his own realm....."
----
Again, I don't advocate arguing canon in the middle of an RP. In the words of Rocket J. Squirrel: "that trick never works". However, if you encounter a truly obnoxious magic uber alles type, and they argue that they're superior to other types of superhumans because of their dark demony badness: there's lore in-game that says otherwise. And as the excerpt includes demon lords, the curb of the Ban on power levels would seem to apply to most of the Caprice types, unless they've taken steps otherwise.
Mind you I suspect most of the demony types enjoy RPing these creatures because they disrespect traditional authority types, and I expect them to have no more respect for the authority of canon than for any form of authority that gets in the way of them doing as they please witout consequences or accountability. Again, noting that there are some well-RPed exceptions to this rule.
"What is the measure of a god? Is it the scope of his power, or how he chooses to wield it?" - Teal'c
Gods and demons have their place, but they need to be written well, and carefully. A god or demon can be a fascinating character to watch unfold in a mortal realm when they choose to interact with it in an interesting way. Say, a god comes to the mortal plane, unable to alter events from it's own dimension and has to deal with one or many problems such as it's corporeal form is not able to contain it's power, either A) weakening the god considerably or The overload of power forcing the corporeal form to deteriorate over time. In my RPing history I have (still to my shame, but hey, we were all newbs once) tried to play the powerful god and/or demon, but I realised that characters without problems or flaws aren't interesting. How depressing would it be when this happens: "Oh no! A villain is terrorising my friend! Oh... I snapped my fingers and turned them to stardust. Well there goes that storyline."
I have always seen them as Long lived super heroes. Look at Marvel, a select few are on the super powerful side, but there are many in comics more powerful. Thor is or atleast was(I havent read a comic in over a year) the most powerful God running around. Or atleast thats how people viewed him in the marvel world, and do you really think he stands a chance against Silver Surfer? Hell Hulk beat him.
Now it maybe a different story when you on their world. Which is where I like your option A.
All these demons seem to have forgotten about one thing.
It's almost canon in fantasy - if you are an extraplanar creature you can be banished, exploited or enslaved with magic or really hurt with a mere prayer. It really suck to be not on your native plane. A mere mortal with strong enough faith or knowledge in arcane arts and you are a sitting duck.
But then godmoding might not be so easy. :rolleyes:
All these demons seem to have forgotten about one thing.
It's almost canon in fantasy - if you are an extraplanar creature you can be banished, exploited or enslaved with magic or really hurt with a mere prayer. It really suck to be not on your native plane. A mere mortal with strong enough faith or knowledge in arcane arts and you are a sitting duck.
But then godmoding might not be so easy. :rolleyes:
It only takes a "John Constantine" type character and suddenly these "demons" and "gods" don't look so tough after all.
Heck, the real bada$$e$ in comics aren't the gods and demons -- they're the cosmic entities. Galactus, the Elders of the Universe, the Celestials, up to conceptual beings like the Endless or Eternity. They fold, spindle, and mutilate demons and gods.
"Son of a demon-king with black magic? Well, I was Viceroy to the Devourer of Stars, who imbued me with the fundamental energy of the cosmos. The cosmos you're in right now, by the way."
Of course, if said viceroy wasn't an interesting character with a thoughtful background, I'd be just as bored by him as by the demon. :rolleyes:
"Son of a demon-king with black magic? Well, I was Viceroy to the Devourer of Stars, who imbued me with the fundamental energy of the cosmos. The cosmos you're in right now, by the way."
*snicker* That could make for a major "Oh crap" moment...
Anyway. Whenever I visit the local watering holes (Caprice) I see at least a handful of characters with the description:
Race: Succubus
Inclination: Lez
My question: Why do these people feel that the only way to have / portray a non-het preference is by being a demon?
I should point out that I've seen this exact behaviour in a few other games as well. It seems that some people only use roleplay for this type of gratification.
*snicker* That could make for a major "Oh crap" moment...
Anyway. Whenever I visit the local watering holes (Caprice) I see at least a handful of characters with the description:
Race: Succubus
Inclination: Lez
My question: Why do these people feel that the only way to have / portray a non-het preference is by being a demon?
I should point out that I've seen this exact behaviour in a few other games as well. It seems that some people only use roleplay for this type of gratification.
/M
Because a lesbian angel doesn't quite have the same ring? I dunno. I suppose it has to do with morality motifs, ie "doing the naughty."
On the other hand, do people actually RP wholesome godly erp?
I suppose they still perceive any other orientation besides the norm to be devious. Which is kinda sad.
Then again, I guess some people can't think of any other way to have powers besides "granted from a demon". That, or being a demon helps them fulfill some....really dark RPs...-shudders- I don't even wanna think about it.
Well there's no reason to just assume they're playing demons because its a deviate lifestyle. Maybe they just think the demonic form is visually appealing without any real moral conclusion actually being made whilst RPing as one. After all, our society has found ways to make jigglebewbs demonic when really they're just jigglebewbs.
Also some media and pop culture have tangled with the idea of demons being the good guys. Meh whatever floats your boat.
You know what I want to see now. Less healers that are angels and more healers that are demons That would throw us all for a spin.
Like I've said before, a lot of folks make their way here from fantasy RPGs, without much familiarity with comic-books or the conventions of the genre. Perhaps they're trying to translate the concepts of powerful characters from those games to this one. Further to that point, many of those games play up the "coolness" of being lethal and "bada$$" rather than the moral ideals that are of greater concern to most superheroes.
As for lesbian succubi :rolleyes: , if an RPer gets off on the notion of exploring what they perceive as a deviant lifestyle, taking on the persona of an embodiment of evil may relieve some of the RPers inhibitions and guilt over doing so.
EDIT: "Gets off" wasn't the expression I initially chose, but the forum censor is rather touchy.
Hmmmm interesting bias here...
It's interesting to see that most people think choosing playing a Demon (or in my case several, from half-breed to "pure bloods") is either to sex it up or to god-mode.
I'll go with my main first: Efreeta (Freeform), a half-breed, human mother was a witch, father is a demon trying to gather said witch's bloodline power.
Think the child of Balthazar and Phoebe in Charmed to get the Power of 3, if you will...
She never chose to be that way.
She fled the lower planes and was summoned here by the witch clan to serve as a weapon against her father.
Plain human revenge she was supposed to serve.
She fled again, horrified by their plan.
She's been on the run for years.
Yes I did use demonic longevity to make that decades, but on the other hand, I didn't boost her wisdom, or knowledge, just street-smarts to avoid getting caught by one side or the other.
Until she reached Millennium City, a place where she could start be herself a little more.
Sure she has powers (and I retconned her quite a good bit), but nothing world-endangering.
At first, she was a Grimoire AT, part of the training the witches gave her.
Then mostly made her use Regen, for a Wolverine type healing, with darkness powers.
She's basically tough as nails, can hurt a bit, but isn't by far the biggest DPS out there...
Just the kind that never stays down. ^_^
I play her as some sort of care-free, sexy (but not vulgar), rebellious Hellboy (well Hellgirl :-p).
Her evil-twin, Effy (Grimoire), on the other hand IS a parody of what you describe: a vile creature that chose to help her father.
Together they took over their dimension, wrecked it, bwahahaha, evil laughs and then... boredom.
What's the point of a world where nothing ever challenges you?
So she stepped into this plane to have fun.
And what's more fun than playing hero, breaking stuff and be thanked for it?
But then again, she just has as much power as a very powerful super-witch, no more.
Her real strength lies in her manipulative nature, the pacts and alliances she formed (then betrayed, of course).
Then you had Kiki (Freeform), a little succubus I made for fun.
She's a healer, and a former DEMON slave.
She does have a sexed up background, but I don't play her that way.
She's more interested in helping people, and that's what she thought she was doing by "serving" her former masters.
Until Efreeta kicked their a$$es, and set her on the way to independence.
She's got as much power as any healer in CO... that's saying a lot. XD
Pyrexia (Freeform), Efreeta's half sis.
Same heritage, just from another witch line.
Totally different story.
She's been kept on Earth, and was raised like a human child.
She's a gun-a-holic and started a bounty-hunter carreer in Nevada.
She didn't even know she had powers before meeting her half-sis.
She's very childish and carefree, almost careless.
You probably won't see her in Caprice, more chances in a joint like Leo's or Sherrarra.
Power? Well she's the highest DPS of all my demons, but still remains at super-gunslinger level.
Pyrry (Devastator), Pyrexia's "not-evil-at-all" twin, Effy's half-sister, is a total opposite of those demon types you describe.
She's stalwart, parangon-esque, what some would describe as the "true hero" type.
Except she's a red-skinned, 7feet tall, winged, giant obsidian sword swinging demon...
Devastators hit hard... but they have no healing.
Totally not all-powerful...
So, there, out of 5 demons (4 half, 1 full), which one falls into the categories you described above?
Mary-Sues? Yeah, on some parts, I sure am guilty. ^_^
But God-moder definitely not.
Also, as far as orientations go:
Efreeta and Effy are bisexuals: the first cause I wasn't sure what toon she would meet to have a relation with, and because her character is to care about a person, not our hetero/gay classification.
And the second just cause she's a bad bad deviant pervert. XD
Kiki is all about her "mistress", a poor shy and correct girl who's often overwhelmed by her servant's attentions. :-p
Pyrexia is straight and shy.
She's discovering love and life as she goes, and it scares her a bit.
Pyrry is also straight.
And being the brute she is, unless she sees a hulk, she won't even notice the guy... XD
So there goes the stereotype of all-powerful succubus trolling for sex, or the demon-lord so powerful he could crush you but instead is begging for attention on the dance-floor...
I suppose it's all about the story you make up for your toons and the way you RP them.
I could cite a few names of characters who despite wearing their boxers on top of their jammies are REAL god-moders...
After all, who gets to fly so fast around the Earth that it turns back time?
Ahem, sorry, never could stand THAT guy....
Oh noes, a ton of green glowing fragments of my planet, I'm gonna die...
-grumbles something about the rarity of said fragments and about how despite being rendered powerless he still manages to be strong enough to save himself without help-
Hmmmm interesting bias here...
It's interesting to see that most people think choosing playing a Demon (or in my case several, from half-breed to "pure bloods") is either to sex it up or to god-mode.
I'll go with my main first: Efreeta (Freeform), a half-breed, human mother was a witch, father is a demon trying to gather said witch's bloodline power.
Think the child of Balthazar and Phoebe in Charmed to get the Power of 3, if you will...
She never chose to be that way.
She fled the lower planes and was summoned here by the witch clan to serve as a weapon against her father.
Plain human revenge she was supposed to serve.
She fled again, horrified by their plan.
She's been on the run for years.
Yes I did use demonic longevity to make that decades, but on the other hand, I didn't boost her wisdom, or knowledge, just street-smarts to avoid getting caught by one side or the other.
Until she reached Millennium City, a place where she could start be herself a little more.
Sure she has powers (and I retconned her quite a good bit), but nothing world-endangering.
At first, she was a Grimoire AT, part of the training the witches gave her.
Then mostly made her use Regen, for a Wolverine type healing, with darkness powers.
She's basically tough as nails, can hurt a bit, but isn't by far the biggest DPS out there...
Just the kind that never stays down. ^_^
I play her as some sort of care-free, sexy (but not vulgar), rebellious Hellboy (well Hellgirl :-p).
Her evil-twin, Effy (Grimoire), on the other hand IS a parody of what you describe: a vile creature that chose to help her father.
Together they took over their dimension, wrecked it, bwahahaha, evil laughs and then... boredom.
What's the point of a world where nothing ever challenges you?
So she stepped into this plane to have fun.
And what's more fun than playing hero, breaking stuff and be thanked for it?
But then again, she just has as much power as a very powerful super-witch, no more.
Her real strength lies in her manipulative nature, the pacts and alliances she formed (then betrayed, of course).
Then you had Kiki (Freeform), a little succubus I made for fun.
She's a healer, and a former DEMON slave.
She does have a sexed up background, but I don't play her that way.
She's more interested in helping people, and that's what she thought she was doing by "serving" her former masters.
Until Efreeta kicked their a$$es, and set her on the way to independence.
She's got as much power as any healer in CO... that's saying a lot. XD
Pyrexia (Freeform), Efreeta's half sis.
Same heritage, just from another witch line.
Totally different story.
She's been kept on Earth, and was raised like a human child.
She's a gun-a-holic and started a bounty-hunter carreer in Nevada.
She didn't even know she had powers before meeting her half-sis.
She's very childish and carefree, almost careless.
You probably won't see her in Caprice, more chances in a joint like Leo's or Sherrarra.
Power? Well she's the highest DPS of all my demons, but still remains at super-gunslinger level.
Pyrry (Devastator), Pyrexia's "not-evil-at-all" twin, Effy's half-sister, is a total opposite of those demon types you describe.
She's stalwart, parangon-esque, what some would describe as the "true hero" type.
Except she's a red-skinned, 7feet tall, winged, giant obsidian sword swinging demon...
Devastators hit hard... but they have no healing.
Totally not all-powerful...
So, there, out of 5 demons (4 half, 1 full), which one falls into the categories you described above?
Mary-Sues? Yeah, on some parts, I sure am guilty. ^_^
But God-moder definitely not.
Also, as far as orientations go:
Efreeta and Effy are bisexuals: the first cause I wasn't sure what toon she would meet to have a relation with, and because her character is to care about a person, not our hetero/gay classification.
And the second just cause she's a bad bad deviant pervert. XD
Kiki is all about her "mistress", a poor shy and correct girl who's often overwhelmed by her servant's attentions. :-p
Pyrexia is straight and shy.
She's discovering love and life as she goes, and it scares her a bit.
Pyrry is also straight.
And being the brute she is, unless she sees a hulk, she won't even notice the guy... XD
So there goes the stereotype of all-powerful succubus trolling for sex, or the demon-lord so powerful he could crush you but instead is begging for attention on the dance-floor...
I suppose it's all about the story you make up for your toons and the way you RP them.
I could cite a few names of characters who despite wearing their boxers on top of their jammies are REAL god-moders...
After all, who gets to fly so fast around the Earth that it turns back time?
Ahem, sorry, never could stand THAT guy....
Oh noes, a ton of green glowing fragments of my planet, I'm gonna die...
-grumbles something about the rarity of said fragments and about how despite being rendered powerless he still manages to be strong enough to save himself without help-
Some of the comments being spread around in here are generalizations, but others are fairly accurate depictions of a specific subset of players and their characters (unless you are claiming that the sort of characters they are describing are NOT staples of the Caprice scene).
I haven't picked up a vibe that people are claiming that anyone playing a character with a demonic/deific origin is a certain way. They seem to be commenting on those characters of demonic/deific origin who are a certain way. This distinction is pretty important. I, for example, could say that I don't like rude and trash talking PvPers. That doesn't mean that I dislike PvPers as a whole, nor that I believe that all PvPers are rude and trash talkers.
Some of the comments being spread around in here are generalizations, but others are fairly accurate depictions of a specific subset of players and their characters (unless you are claiming that the sort of characters they are describing are NOT staples of the Caprice scene).
I haven't picked up a vibe that people are claiming that anyone playing a character with a demonic/deific origin is a certain way. They seem to be commenting on those characters of demonic/deific origin who are a certain way. This distinction is pretty important. I, for example, could say that I don't like rude and trash talking PvPers. That doesn't mean that I dislike PvPers as a whole, nor that I believe that all PvPers are rude and trash talkers.
There's always a subset that fits, but it was the generalizations I wanted to tackle on.
And of course, those plague Caprice.
I only stepped in there at the beginning of my time on C.O. then I RPed on top of the blimp, with the only goal to avoid them...
Anyway. Whenever I visit the local watering holes (Caprice) I see at least a handful of characters with the description:
Race: Succubus
Inclination: Lez
Light RP: Yes
Medium RP: Yes
Heavy RP: No
Erotic RP: No
PRIMUS Database preliminary scan results:
Name: Efreeta
Alias: Effy, Ef, Dee Mawnyk
Species: Half-demon
Age: ~600 (Personality: ~20)
Height: 6'1" (185 cm)
Weight: Confidential
Eyes color: Glowing red
Hair color: White
Nationality: None
Occupation: Demon hunter / Model
Place of birth: Lower planes
Marital status: Committed to Penelope Chimera
Known relatives: Pyrexia (Half-sister), Melinda St-Moth (Closest friend)
Known powers: Dimensional / Edom powers, Elemental Fire
Known abilities: Pole dancing, Modeling
Equipement: Crystal necklace (Power focus)
Preliminary profile: Efreeta is often seen as easy going, even childish sometimes. This comes mostly from the fact she grew up alone, in the wilds, only coming in contact with other people and civilization when she was already older. She is quite friendly and outward to people with the same attitude. Very wary of demons, dark creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.) and other denizens of the lower-planes, she treats them with suspicion. She is attracted to both genders, finding beauty in each, but is deeply committed to her relationship with Penelope and absolutely faithful.
For a more complete report, please query the PRIMUS database mainsite about Efreeta.
How many do you think will go past the green part?
That's the point that annoys me a bit.
Like you said just because I play a certain type of toon, it doesn't mean that I fall into all the traps of said type.
But I still see threads like these often, very often, and I sometimes fear that Cryptic will do something stupid that will affect my toon and what makes it unique...
You have a perfectly legitimate concept, Meredy, with depth and personality, and it sounds like you roleplay her well. Pretty much any type of supernatural background can be appropriate and work in a superhero game -- it's the most inclusive genre around -- and if my comments implied otherwise, I apologise. Like Ashen_X I was directing my observations toward a general group of RPers who fall within the unfortunate stereotype discussed here, not everyone who chooses a "demonic" background for their character.
If the players of those lesbian, succubi, goddess, unkillable, can kill anything, Mary Sue, godmoding, ERPing characters are having fun (without hurting anyone else)...
If the players of those lesbian, succubi, goddess, unkillable, can kill anything, Mary Sue, godmoding, ERPing characters are having fun (without hurting anyone else)...
They are doing it right.
Unless they insist on coming up to you and ruining perfectly good RP with quotes such as 'You will be smitten, mortal' or 'hey there, im a succubus and a lesbian, so you MUST bed me'
On a sensible note, I was having a quiet chat in CC the other day about the crappyness of the look of defenders armor and someone came up and began to interrupt telling us that we should not bad mouth defender. When i told them to leave us as it was a private chat, they began to god mod like the best of them, they were going to kill us both, we were stupid human mortal...blah blah blah....quite annoying really. I left at that point....
So the issue here was that the lesbian, succubus, godmodding uberdiety just could not leave us alone, they felt they were so powerful they were beyond polite actions and went straight to the threats.....
(also, what the hell is a Mary Sue? )
Any concept can be played both well and poorly. Spandex-wearing poster children for Trooth and Juss-Tiss are just as vulnerable to being played in an immature, overbearing God Mode Sue style as any god or demon I've ever met. Especially given the peculiarities of a genre in which the spandex-wearing idiot in question may very well be the god/demon/mythological force of Ultimate Power in question.
Heh...the interesting thing, to me at least, is always the undertone in these arguments against gods/demons/monsters/furries du jour. The question is always "why do so many people play G/D/M/FDJ?!", but the second part of the question never seems to be put into words: namely, "and thusly not play real superheroes?!"
In a game with such immense creative freedom behind its character creation as Champions, which has been set in a genre known for being remarkably inclusive of any old concept a player wishes to dream up and execute, the notion that a given character has to be directly traceable to a major era in mainstream U.S. comic book history in order to somehow count is not just crazy, it's downright offensive. Especially when even the comic book industry itself strives constantly to break its own molds and turn its own conventions upside down looking for the next audience-catching twist.
Who the hell are you (note: this is the collective 'you' refering to an ambiguous idea, not Ashen or the OP or even you, DJJ) to say that just because my favorite characters have horns instead of tights, I'm just out looking for some sleazy ERP? That, as much as the bad roleplayers, is why I don't roleplay in Champions. How many people look at any character with horns and think "Oh Gawd, it's another friggin' 'Oh-I'm-soo-evil-isn't-it-sexy?' Hellspawn!", or at any character using beast-type costume parts and say "GODDAMNIT ANOTHER FURRY, let's get out of here before it starts talking yiff." Do I go around looking at all the people wearing skintight suits with logos on their chests and go "aww hell, more Justice Muppets..."?
Well...actually I do, every now and then, when the Justice Muppet in question is particularly painful to the eye. I think the same when I see a fifty-two costume pileup, or one of those max-chest-depth women with knockers out to Kansas and body proportions that kinda make me want to crawl under the covers. But I keep it to myself when it happens, since I know that they're just as entitled to their character preferences as I am to mine. I've got no right to go around beating on people with my personal opinion that the character tropes and conventions they clearly favor are patently ridiculous. It's my opinion; they don't give a rat about it and shouldn't have to tell me so. By the same token, you (again, collective 'you', in order to avoid future trolling) have no damn business telling me that you're sick of seeing whatever I've decided to play that day just because you, personally, don't favor the character tropes and conventions I like to run with.
Trust me - any character type or trope you think is completely unrecoverable, I could whip out an interesting and story-worthy counter-example inside a day, if not on the flappin' spot. Lesbian succubus? Please. Gimme something challenging. Not even going to write it all the way out - take the fact that Lilith was cast out of Eden for demanding equality with Adam and sent to Hell, then go down into said Hell and have her be the founder of an Infernal Amazonian-type culture of fierce, wild female demons who all demand the same equality of and with their mates and typically only find it in each others' arms. Done. 1x succubus, lesbian, high-grade. Gimme an hour and I could write up a page-long bio sheet about the specific character (collective) you thought was nothing more than an ERP-dERP mess.
Sparkling vampire? However much I despise Twilight, the idea itself is just as simple: the vampire in question was an alchemist, turned for (insert origin story here). After spending a couple of centuries in darkness and night, he decided he wanted very much to see the sun again and spent a decade putting his long-honed alchemical skills to work coming up with a way to do just that. He finally created a skin treatment that would shield his body from the lethal effects of the sun's rays and applied it. The first time he walked out under the light of day, however, he found out that his treatment, while miraculously effective, had the unintended and very embarrassing side effect of making him light up like a disco ball when the light hit it just right. The treatment was, unfortunately, as permanent as it was effective. The vampire in question doesn't really want to talk about it, and hates Stephanie Meyers with all the unholy passion in his undead body when, after a brief chance encounter with him one day, she decided to write a bunch of books.
I offer anyone who wants to take me up on it a dual challenge: send me a character concept you just can't see making for an interesting character and I'll send you a return message telling you why you're wrong. If you decide I've got a point you can even, if you so desire, use the character idea yourself, with my blessing and no need to give me credit for it - plagiarize to your heart's content. Alternatively, sit your IC **** down and hold a conversation with any one of my demons/youkai/demon hunters/robots/random one-offs (provided the character in question isn't sitting on a double XP boost, anyways. I've a few that are) and see if a half-hour's IC chat can't convince you that you might be overdoing your opinion a bit. You could also take the chance to show me that your Spandex-wearing Hero of Justice is more than a bag of powers and a set of trite, parroted so-called 'values' they barely understand. No, really, please do - I studied philosophy and ethics specifically because I enjoy those sorts of conversations, I'd enjoy talking to a Boy Scout-type character that can actually back itself up.
In summation/TL;DR: if I'm not actively doing something to screw with your day, keep your mouth shut. You never know whether the generic-looking succubus or werewolf-looking guy you're currently scorning has fifteen pages of detailed, well-written story packed away somewhere you aren't aware of.
Unless they insist on coming up to you and ruining perfectly good RP with quotes such as 'You will be smitten, mortal' or 'hey there, im a succubus and a lesbian, so you MUST bed me' )
Perhaps I should have said, "without bothering," rather than, "without hurting."
Even so, bother is in the eye of the beholder. That well thought out, and intricately woven into your character story, line you use to meet people who seem interesting to you could be every bit as bothersome to them as the lines you quoted above are to you.
In summation/TL;DR: if I'm not actively doing something to screw with your day, keep your mouth shut. You never know whether the generic-looking succubus or werewolf-looking guy you're currently scorning has fifteen pages of detailed, well-written story packed away somewhere you aren't aware of.
Here's the deal. I'm all about what you're saying...
Except the part where you say for me to keep my damned mouth shut. Just as much as you have the freedom to express what YOU are, I- and anyone else- has a right to express what they feel about a generalized subject. Just because it's your concept doesn't put it in an impenetrable bubble force field. No one is slurring you, as a person. People are griping about what they like and don't like.
Here's the deal. I'm all about what you're saying...
Except the part where you say for me to keep my damned mouth shut. Just as much as you have the freedom to express what YOU are, I- and anyone else- has a right to express what they feel about a generalized subject. Just because it's your concept doesn't put it in an impenetrable bubble force field. No one is slurring you, as a person. People are griping about what they like and don't like.
Funyuns. They suck and I hate them. Discuss.
The keep your mouth shut was in reference to people picking on others. Of course you can go to a forum and express your opinion on a generalized subject, but none of us have the right to approach others for the purpose of insulting what they enjoy. If that succubus is over there "RPing" with that...other Succubus, then its not the place of someone who thinks that succubi are overdone to interrupt so that he can tell them how much he loathes their preferred character type.
Comments
You don't have to be human to be a hero. Heroism isnt defined by one's race, but rather one's deeds.
If he was good only because its int he Krypton nature to act a certain way we wouldn't have Kryptonian villains.
Attempting to define never being selfish as an unheroic trait is abit of a stretch. Attempting to define choosing to do the right thing as an unheroic trait is similarly a stretch.
Choosing to act heroic does not define one as nonheroic.
I think the problem with definition of hero is how people observe it. If you ask probably a goodly chunk of people, most people will define a hero as some unbeatable person who eats dirt and craps bullets, while taking down tons and tons of bad guys before breakfast without even breaking a sweat.
Frankly, that view is completely wrong. What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition. They complete it not because they have no way they couldn't fail, but because at any moment they could fail.
I don't consider Superman a hero because outside of a few deus plot points, his weakness and points that he would actually ever face adversity or challenge to his person or intellect is pretty sub par even on most levels. He's called Superman for a reason, because by all points he is super and beyond any scope we as humans can imagine. While he does deeds that a normal person doing would be heroic, such as saving a train full of passengers from falling off a cliff, it's not actually putting pressure or danger on him as a person and isn't exactly going to threaten his life, and generally, outside of the deus plot lines, he has no way to actually fail. I mean literally, DC had to create a being so powerful to beat Superman, and he did beat Superman regardless of fanboi reaction, and after all that plot line was said and done DC realized they made a villain so powerful no one could contest with him, not even Superman, so they nerfed him. Because not even gods, in DC Universe, are as strong as him (DC's words).
This is also why Batman has been falling out of being a hero in my eyes as well. Because of his intellect and genius and the fact he is suppose to be at and above the peak of human perfection, he really isn't going to be in situations where he is possibly gong to fail normally, so the challenges have to become more ridiculous. He's literally reached a point that he can rival Superman, to the point that people are saying that he could take Superman down if it came to blows.
In short, super powers doesn't make a person a hero. Going above and beyond the limits of said powers where you have a chance to actually fail, is. While people might see my view of these characters as a bit one sided, it's the same view I put on players in the game. Anyone set up to be omnipotent and unbeatable is a boring character. Say it's the person that makes them interesting, but even a loaf of bread gets stale after a few hours of sitting out.
I agree that it isnt superpowers that makes a hero.
On the other hand I dont think, "What traditionally defines a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do to persevere in spite of the opposition," is accurate.
The woman that dives into the water to save a drowning child, the man who rushes into the burning building to save a family, the soldier who leaves cover under fire to help a squad mate...all of these are people doing what a normal person could do. All of them are heroes in my opinion.
Superman doesn't use his power to enrich himself -- he devotes his whole life to protecting the weak and helping those in need. Superman doesn't exalt himself above humanity -- as Clark Kent he's down in the trenches with the rest of us working stiffs, trying to live as human a life as possible. The fact that he doesn't often face opponents who are strong enough to hurt or kill him doesn't negate the fact that he has in the past, repeatedly, and never backs down. Yet he also sometimes confronts challenges of an emotional or moral nature, which can't be solved by brute force, and demand as much from him as anyone else.
Superman not a hero? In some ways he's the greatest hero of all.
I am not a huge fan of Superman, but I agree completely.
Except you just described what I was referring to. A person going in doing something that they could fail out right and succeeding. That is the measure of a hero. Doing something that truly risks their own life or that they could fail at in spite of everything they do.
And that's what I call a deus point. While most people try to concern themselves over how strong he is, he has also proven time and again how intelligent he actually is to. It's the catch 22, most people just tend to think of him as a dumb, lumbering man in blue tights, but he is pretty smart. So dilemmas and issues that cross his path are as much a pittance to him as him being challenged to an arm wrestling contest. So, what writers try to do is either come up with moral or puzzles to "challenge" Superman, despite he has solved the dilemmas in the past before.
And trying to say his life as Clark Kent is made tougher by it. I don't think so. Since we know Clark Kent is his actual disguise, he has been known to quote at times how the human race amuses him. Do I consider it heroic that he doesn't go overboard and use his powers to enforce his own rules or something? Not really, not any more than I would consider the local police officer who doesn't abuse his power.
Superman is a character that has proven, time and again, he can pretty much out think and out muscle almost any situation. It's almost as basic as breathing now, it isn't so much as he is being heroic. Is he iconic? Sure, he's been around for nearly 100 years. He tends to be the trumpet for certain American ideals hence his catch phrase always being truth, justice and the American way.
I was referring to your statement that a hero is someone who goes above and beyond what a normal person could do.
Above and beyond normal capability is a definition of the word paranormal. You have stated (in the sentence quoted) that the traditional definition of a hero is someone with paranormal capabilities. That is the opposite of my position that one need not be capable of paranormal feats in order to be a hero.
It did just occur to me, did you mean above and beyond what a normal person WOULD do rather than COULD do ?
Even there its a stretch because normal people do heroic things every day.
As to Superman...of course you are entitled to your opinion. As much as I am not a fan of him, I tend to disagree with your position.
Above and beyond is risking your own life to do something. Now you might consider it within the capabilities of everyone to do it, but realistically, not everyone is actually capable of doing it. Now while many people will imagine they can do it easily, many people are not capable of doing this very basic thing. Honestly, when a catastrophe happens, either people get away from it or stand on the sidelines and watch it more times than likely, few actually go beyond that point and leap in to try and help those actually in danger.
There is a difference between what people usually do or will do, and what people can do.
One does not have to risk one's life to be a hero in my opinion.
Jumping into deep water to save a drowning toddler would be heroic, in my opinion, even if it represents no risk to the rescuer's life.
We had someone watching us, telepathically threatening to kill us all. I /target, and while the character may not be a god or a demon... sheesh.
She was THE owner of Club Caprice.
She'd be happy to kill anyone.
Parents died at the age of 9.
Dr. Destroyer may or may not be her father.
She was raised by Sapphire after her parents died.
So I decided to check out her build with the user profile thing. GASP. It was a PvP build perfectly specced out to kill anyone in a duel. I'd seen this exact build quite a few times too. The DU + Gauntlet Chainsaw might as well be patented by now!
Plus, she was RP-threatening my buddies. Who were on characters that were level 20 Munitions, a level 40 Soldier and a level 35 TK Lancer-Dual Pistols. When she started on me, I just said, straight up, 'No, we are not going to RP with you, please leave us alone.'
Promptly told to relax and ignored by person.
So, careful. If a god or demon starts threatening you in RP and you take your ball and go home, they might, GASP, ignore you! :O
And people wonder why Caprice has a bad rap.
LOL I'm sure all this falls outside Champions Lore. Shame you cant ask Sapphire if she has a foster child at home
And did Dr Destroyer ***** around impregnating so many people? I have seen loads of his sprogs running around. Maybe he should have used a condom
And after what you find in the books about him, Dr. Destroyer may as well be asexual. No time for women (or men) in his schedule. AT ALL.
Or at least he said that to get a rise out of people.
Eww...really? Theres no accounting for taste, Jesse
There *is* established PnP lore on who owns Caprice: Lewis Frey, the master of disguise villain Masquerade in the 50s and 60s, who was captured by Black Mask in '71, released from prison in '85, and founded Caprice in 1995 (see Millennium City, p. 43). However, Cryptic has never put out a name, so I can't blame anyone for not knowing this, or even wanting to assume the identity. Nor do I think it's wise to argue the point if it's accepted by the bulk of the Caprice RP community.
As far as connections with Destroyer and Sapphire go: I try not to make fun of people's backstories, and I've certainly heard worse. If I interact with her, I'll treat her as being who she says he is, and inwardly retcon her to be Frey's granddaughter who's been made club manager and not belabor the point. I've had some bad experiences with lore advocates in WoW, and while I strongly prefer not to contradict canon, I find trying to "educate" people on lore in the middle of an RP and spoiling their fun to be really bad form If she claims power and abuses it with me or friends of mine, I'll simply let her go on doing her thing and try not to cross her path.
I kinda agree with some of this. I have had some fun, very light hearted RP with some of the Caprice Management, and I could imagine that the owner of Caprice would have employees working for them.
What I do think is that if someone is to make such a large leap of faith with their characters back story, then they should research some of the lore involved.
Its kind of like saying...'Spiderman and Wonderwoman had a child and he/she came to the city as Wonder-Spider Person'. The story would lack coherence due to the fact that the lore is not really behind them.
This relpy is kinda waffly but makes sense in my head
This is where i feel CO really falls down bits of lore like this should be in game it helps flesh out the world
Absolutely 100% agree.
That would be a shame if it was the case. I used to play CoH for a while and I'm sure the lore was far more accessible there.
Thor
Vampire Diaries (What I thought to be a twilight clone, is now one of my favourite tv shows, so much over the top gore and random humour ^^)
Twilight
Harry Potter
Doctor Who (To a certain extent, we had "The Impossible Planet" and "The Shakespear Code")
Sorcerers Apprentice
Ending of Mass Effect 3
Lord of the Rings
We also had older tv shows such as Buffy / Angel etc which were hugely popular at the time. Magic is suddenly no longer for gamers and enthusiasts, its much more prevailant today than it used to be. I'm not suprised there are a lot of magic based characters out there.
They didn't have almost 30 years of material to work off of CoH, and 98% of the game's necessary lore was only presented in that one work (being expressly written for that purpose).
Apples <-> Oranges. DCUO has pretty much the same issue Champions does in this regard, in that they just sort of expect you for the most part to either already be familiar with the characters, or willing to seek out alternate methods (such as reading the comics and/or other material as necessary) to find out more about X or Y.
Heck, they used a few semi-obscure characters even I had to look up here and there. :U
Wasn't near as fun as researching Champions was, though.
EDIT: For that matter, World of Warcraft and LotRO have similar issues (again either expecting familiarity or, at the least, looking through the Lore sections of their related wikis as the amount of lore available in-game vs. what is actually available is pretty shabby; Despite the fact both try to do a good job of it).
Just examples, mind.
I laughed harder than I should.
However, it seems like 90% of the characters I encounter are magic-based. I know that the root of 'superpowers' in Champions Lore is based off a supernatural event (I think), but that's not where the pain comes in.
The annoyance is with the characters who live by the philosophy that 'magic is the most powerful force, and your guy doesn't use it so I can destroy you and you don't have a chance'. That, and the fact that anyone with a magic-based character can do damned near anything explainable with 'I haz magics', regardless of powerset. There's no fun in playing with someone who can mind-read, make your weapons turn to rotten wood, teleport you to hell, become intangible so your bullets go right through them (despite them not knowing you were even there), see through cloaking technology, extinguish flames with a handwave, put up impenetrable force shields at will, mind read and take over your mind with no effort, and otherwise get a freebie at metagaming/god-moding because 'you're magic'.
I'm sorry, but get the drop on Dr. Strange and put a bullet between his eyes and he'll die just like anyone else who takes a bullet to the head. Hell, even Thor can die (just like any Norse God, and even Egyptian and Greek ones).
I like the old D&D concept- yeah, magic is badass. It can do amazing things, things that normal people could never do. But it's not like snapping your fingers, making armpit noises, or forcing a belch: It requires precision, concentration, and time... some things that an acrobatic gun-monkey or super martial artist can make difficult, if not impossible. And most magic-users are useless in close quarters when you're beating their face to mush.
Magic gives good RPers something fun to toy with, and bad RPers an excuse to godmode because it's so vague as a power (though, really, it doesn't take much to specify what your magic specialty is).
As far as the demon players go... well, I have to admit, I don't like most of them. All I see is 'I can do X because I am a demon'. Well, last I checked you can destroy anything in material form. It may be tougher, it may not respond to the laws of human physiology- but a Rocket-Propelled HE grenade is going to leave a nasty mark on anything it hits (provided what it hits is still intact to assess). You can't sit and tell me your 'demon' is tougher than an Abrams tank (considering that he's level 6 and sits in Caprice looking for ERP all day).
Because of this, in character, I spill over my bias. When Wraith hears some demon talking big **** to intimidate someone, he walks over and embarasses them. Reminds them how stupid it is to talk down to mortals in a club full of superheroes dedicating to protecting those mortals- and that's something an immortal demon should consider, unless he's spent eons playing 'how big is the next booger I pull gonna be?'. He also asks why if they're so powerful, why they aren't ruling parts of the world or at least in the papers a little. And this is a guy with no real super power (although I have the vague 'killer instinct' as a power, and I discuss with a mature player how that could be used in a battle, provided we get into one). I love it.
I'm personally for the rule that your character should be able to do what's in his powerset, or at least something related to it (Wraith can fight with a knife, despite there being no knife attack. He knows a few martial arts quite proficiently, despite his melee attack being 'Bullet Beatdown').
Gods and demons have their place, but they need to be written well, and carefully. A god or demon can be a fascinating character to watch unfold in a mortal realm when they choose to interact with it in an interesting way. Say, a god comes to the mortal plane, unable to alter events from it's own dimension and has to deal with one or many problems such as it's corporeal form is not able to contain it's power, either A) weakening the god considerably or
Source: Champions Villains, Volume 1, p. 227.
"Long ago, gods and spirits walked the Earth freely. That started to change around 700 BC. Prophets like Zoroaster and the Buddha taught mortals to worship truth, virtue, and law instead of parochial gods with all-too-human failings. As the new ethical religions spread and multiplied, the gods found it harder to manifest on Earth. When a preacher in Judea declared that men need not sacrifice to gods because God would sacrifice himself for Man, the Ban locked shut completely. No god walked the Earth for almost 2,000 years.Gods recruited mortal worshippers through persuasion instead of displays of power....
"The Ban weakened in 1938 with the start of the Superheroic Age, but gods still cannot visit the mortal world with ease.... Gods who want to act more directly have several options.
"Avatars: A god can materialize a body on Earth with a fraction of the gods full divine power...The weaker the avatar, the longer the god can remain on Earth. An avatar of no greater power than a standard superbeing can typically stay in the mortal world indefinitely, though this depends on the nature of the god and the pantheon.. many of the demon lords encountered by mystic heroes are actually such projections.... Mortal avatars usually fall in the same power range as other superbeings.
"Halfbreeds And Demigods: A more patient god can gain a divinely-powered agent in the person of a half-mortal child.... The Ban also applies only to full powered gods. Since the Ban closed, some gods had children of considerably lesser power.....
"Sacrifice: A sacrifice of sufficiently great spiritual energy enables a god to enter the mortal world for a few minutes and wield its full power....
"Nexus Points And Gates: Some locations naturally intersect with Faerie (or other planes where gods dwell), and powerful mystics can create such portals between worlds. A god can stand in such a portal and use his full power on nearby areas, because he hasnt left his own realm....."
----
Again, I don't advocate arguing canon in the middle of an RP. In the words of Rocket J. Squirrel: "that trick never works". However, if you encounter a truly obnoxious magic uber alles type, and they argue that they're superior to other types of superhumans because of their dark demony badness: there's lore in-game that says otherwise. And as the excerpt includes demon lords, the curb of the Ban on power levels would seem to apply to most of the Caprice types, unless they've taken steps otherwise.
Mind you I suspect most of the demony types enjoy RPing these creatures because they disrespect traditional authority types, and I expect them to have no more respect for the authority of canon than for any form of authority that gets in the way of them doing as they please witout consequences or accountability. Again, noting that there are some well-RPed exceptions to this rule.
I have always seen them as Long lived super heroes. Look at Marvel, a select few are on the super powerful side, but there are many in comics more powerful. Thor is or atleast was(I havent read a comic in over a year) the most powerful God running around. Or atleast thats how people viewed him in the marvel world, and do you really think he stands a chance against Silver Surfer? Hell Hulk beat him.
Now it maybe a different story when you on their world. Which is where I like your option A.
It's almost canon in fantasy - if you are an extraplanar creature you can be banished, exploited or enslaved with magic or really hurt with a mere prayer. It really suck to be not on your native plane. A mere mortal with strong enough faith or knowledge in arcane arts and you are a sitting duck.
But then godmoding might not be so easy. :rolleyes:
It only takes a "John Constantine" type character and suddenly these "demons" and "gods" don't look so tough after all.
"Son of a demon-king with black magic? Well, I was Viceroy to the Devourer of Stars, who imbued me with the fundamental energy of the cosmos. The cosmos you're in right now, by the way."
Of course, if said viceroy wasn't an interesting character with a thoughtful background, I'd be just as bored by him as by the demon. :rolleyes:
*snicker* That could make for a major "Oh crap" moment...
Anyway. Whenever I visit the local watering holes (Caprice) I see at least a handful of characters with the description:
Race: Succubus
Inclination: Lez
My question: Why do these people feel that the only way to have / portray a non-het preference is by being a demon?
I should point out that I've seen this exact behaviour in a few other games as well. It seems that some people only use roleplay for this type of gratification.
/M
Because a lesbian angel doesn't quite have the same ring? I dunno. I suppose it has to do with morality motifs, ie "doing the naughty."
On the other hand, do people actually RP wholesome godly erp?
Then again, I guess some people can't think of any other way to have powers besides "granted from a demon". That, or being a demon helps them fulfill some....really dark RPs...-shudders- I don't even wanna think about it.
Also some media and pop culture have tangled with the idea of demons being the good guys. Meh whatever floats your boat.
You know what I want to see now. Less healers that are angels and more healers that are demons
As for lesbian succubi :rolleyes: , if an RPer gets off on the notion of exploring what they perceive as a deviant lifestyle, taking on the persona of an embodiment of evil may relieve some of the RPers inhibitions and guilt over doing so.
EDIT: "Gets off" wasn't the expression I initially chose, but the forum censor is rather touchy.
It's interesting to see that most people think choosing playing a Demon (or in my case several, from half-breed to "pure bloods") is either to sex it up or to god-mode.
Think the child of Balthazar and Phoebe in Charmed to get the Power of 3, if you will...
She never chose to be that way.
She fled the lower planes and was summoned here by the witch clan to serve as a weapon against her father.
Plain human revenge she was supposed to serve.
She fled again, horrified by their plan.
She's been on the run for years.
Yes I did use demonic longevity to make that decades, but on the other hand, I didn't boost her wisdom, or knowledge, just street-smarts to avoid getting caught by one side or the other.
Until she reached Millennium City, a place where she could start be herself a little more.
Sure she has powers (and I retconned her quite a good bit), but nothing world-endangering.
At first, she was a Grimoire AT, part of the training the witches gave her.
Then mostly made her use Regen, for a Wolverine type healing, with darkness powers.
She's basically tough as nails, can hurt a bit, but isn't by far the biggest DPS out there...
Just the kind that never stays down. ^_^
I play her as some sort of care-free, sexy (but not vulgar), rebellious Hellboy (well Hellgirl :-p).
Together they took over their dimension, wrecked it, bwahahaha, evil laughs and then... boredom.
What's the point of a world where nothing ever challenges you?
So she stepped into this plane to have fun.
And what's more fun than playing hero, breaking stuff and be thanked for it?
But then again, she just has as much power as a very powerful super-witch, no more.
Her real strength lies in her manipulative nature, the pacts and alliances she formed (then betrayed, of course).
She's a healer, and a former DEMON slave.
She does have a sexed up background, but I don't play her that way.
She's more interested in helping people, and that's what she thought she was doing by "serving" her former masters.
Until Efreeta kicked their a$$es, and set her on the way to independence.
She's got as much power as any healer in CO... that's saying a lot. XD
Same heritage, just from another witch line.
Totally different story.
She's been kept on Earth, and was raised like a human child.
She's a gun-a-holic and started a bounty-hunter carreer in Nevada.
She didn't even know she had powers before meeting her half-sis.
She's very childish and carefree, almost careless.
You probably won't see her in Caprice, more chances in a joint like Leo's or Sherrarra.
Power? Well she's the highest DPS of all my demons, but still remains at super-gunslinger level.
She's stalwart, parangon-esque, what some would describe as the "true hero" type.
Except she's a red-skinned, 7feet tall, winged, giant obsidian sword swinging demon...
Devastators hit hard... but they have no healing.
Totally not all-powerful...
So, there, out of 5 demons (4 half, 1 full), which one falls into the categories you described above?
Mary-Sues? Yeah, on some parts, I sure am guilty. ^_^
But God-moder definitely not.
Also, as far as orientations go:
And the second just cause she's a bad bad deviant pervert. XD
She's discovering love and life as she goes, and it scares her a bit.
And being the brute she is, unless she sees a hulk, she won't even notice the guy... XD
So there goes the stereotype of all-powerful succubus trolling for sex, or the demon-lord so powerful he could crush you but instead is begging for attention on the dance-floor...
I suppose it's all about the story you make up for your toons and the way you RP them.
I could cite a few names of characters who despite wearing their boxers on top of their jammies are REAL god-moders...
After all, who gets to fly so fast around the Earth that it turns back time?
Ahem, sorry, never could stand THAT guy....
Oh noes, a ton of green glowing fragments of my planet, I'm gonna die...
-grumbles something about the rarity of said fragments and about how despite being rendered powerless he still manages to be strong enough to save himself without help-
Some of the comments being spread around in here are generalizations, but others are fairly accurate depictions of a specific subset of players and their characters (unless you are claiming that the sort of characters they are describing are NOT staples of the Caprice scene).
I haven't picked up a vibe that people are claiming that anyone playing a character with a demonic/deific origin is a certain way. They seem to be commenting on those characters of demonic/deific origin who are a certain way. This distinction is pretty important. I, for example, could say that I don't like rude and trash talking PvPers. That doesn't mean that I dislike PvPers as a whole, nor that I believe that all PvPers are rude and trash talkers.
There's always a subset that fits, but it was the generalizations I wanted to tackle on.
And of course, those plague Caprice.
I only stepped in there at the beginning of my time on C.O. then I RPed on top of the blimp, with the only goal to avoid them...
Let's take this:
And this:
How many do you think will go past the green part?
That's the point that annoys me a bit.
Like you said just because I play a certain type of toon, it doesn't mean that I fall into all the traps of said type.
But I still see threads like these often, very often, and I sometimes fear that Cryptic will do something stupid that will affect my toon and what makes it unique...
If the players of those lesbian, succubi, goddess, unkillable, can kill anything, Mary Sue, godmoding, ERPing characters are having fun (without hurting anyone else)...
They are doing it right.
Unless they insist on coming up to you and ruining perfectly good RP with quotes such as 'You will be smitten, mortal' or 'hey there, im a succubus and a lesbian, so you MUST bed me'
On a sensible note, I was having a quiet chat in CC the other day about the crappyness of the look of defenders armor and someone came up and began to interrupt telling us that we should not bad mouth defender. When i told them to leave us as it was a private chat, they began to god mod like the best of them, they were going to kill us both, we were stupid human mortal...blah blah blah....quite annoying really. I left at that point....
So the issue here was that the lesbian, succubus, godmodding uberdiety just could not leave us alone, they felt they were so powerful they were beyond polite actions and went straight to the threats.....
(also, what the hell is a Mary Sue? )
Any concept can be played both well and poorly. Spandex-wearing poster children for Trooth and Juss-Tiss are just as vulnerable to being played in an immature, overbearing God Mode Sue style as any god or demon I've ever met. Especially given the peculiarities of a genre in which the spandex-wearing idiot in question may very well be the god/demon/mythological force of Ultimate Power in question.
Heh...the interesting thing, to me at least, is always the undertone in these arguments against gods/demons/monsters/furries du jour. The question is always "why do so many people play G/D/M/FDJ?!", but the second part of the question never seems to be put into words: namely, "and thusly not play real superheroes?!"
In a game with such immense creative freedom behind its character creation as Champions, which has been set in a genre known for being remarkably inclusive of any old concept a player wishes to dream up and execute, the notion that a given character has to be directly traceable to a major era in mainstream U.S. comic book history in order to somehow count is not just crazy, it's downright offensive. Especially when even the comic book industry itself strives constantly to break its own molds and turn its own conventions upside down looking for the next audience-catching twist.
Who the hell are you (note: this is the collective 'you' refering to an ambiguous idea, not Ashen or the OP or even you, DJJ) to say that just because my favorite characters have horns instead of tights, I'm just out looking for some sleazy ERP? That, as much as the bad roleplayers, is why I don't roleplay in Champions. How many people look at any character with horns and think "Oh Gawd, it's another friggin' 'Oh-I'm-soo-evil-isn't-it-sexy?' Hellspawn!", or at any character using beast-type costume parts and say "GODDAMNIT ANOTHER FURRY, let's get out of here before it starts talking yiff." Do I go around looking at all the people wearing skintight suits with logos on their chests and go "aww hell, more Justice Muppets..."?
Well...actually I do, every now and then, when the Justice Muppet in question is particularly painful to the eye. I think the same when I see a fifty-two costume pileup, or one of those max-chest-depth women with knockers out to Kansas and body proportions that kinda make me want to crawl under the covers. But I keep it to myself when it happens, since I know that they're just as entitled to their character preferences as I am to mine. I've got no right to go around beating on people with my personal opinion that the character tropes and conventions they clearly favor are patently ridiculous. It's my opinion; they don't give a rat about it and shouldn't have to tell me so. By the same token, you (again, collective 'you', in order to avoid future trolling) have no damn business telling me that you're sick of seeing whatever I've decided to play that day just because you, personally, don't favor the character tropes and conventions I like to run with.
Trust me - any character type or trope you think is completely unrecoverable, I could whip out an interesting and story-worthy counter-example inside a day, if not on the flappin' spot. Lesbian succubus? Please. Gimme something challenging. Not even going to write it all the way out - take the fact that Lilith was cast out of Eden for demanding equality with Adam and sent to Hell, then go down into said Hell and have her be the founder of an Infernal Amazonian-type culture of fierce, wild female demons who all demand the same equality of and with their mates and typically only find it in each others' arms. Done. 1x succubus, lesbian, high-grade. Gimme an hour and I could write up a page-long bio sheet about the specific character (collective) you thought was nothing more than an ERP-dERP mess.
Sparkling vampire? However much I despise Twilight, the idea itself is just as simple: the vampire in question was an alchemist, turned for (insert origin story here). After spending a couple of centuries in darkness and night, he decided he wanted very much to see the sun again and spent a decade putting his long-honed alchemical skills to work coming up with a way to do just that. He finally created a skin treatment that would shield his body from the lethal effects of the sun's rays and applied it. The first time he walked out under the light of day, however, he found out that his treatment, while miraculously effective, had the unintended and very embarrassing side effect of making him light up like a disco ball when the light hit it just right. The treatment was, unfortunately, as permanent as it was effective. The vampire in question doesn't really want to talk about it, and hates Stephanie Meyers with all the unholy passion in his undead body when, after a brief chance encounter with him one day, she decided to write a bunch of books.
I offer anyone who wants to take me up on it a dual challenge: send me a character concept you just can't see making for an interesting character and I'll send you a return message telling you why you're wrong. If you decide I've got a point you can even, if you so desire, use the character idea yourself, with my blessing and no need to give me credit for it - plagiarize to your heart's content. Alternatively, sit your IC **** down and hold a conversation with any one of my demons/youkai/demon hunters/robots/random one-offs (provided the character in question isn't sitting on a double XP boost, anyways. I've a few that are) and see if a half-hour's IC chat can't convince you that you might be overdoing your opinion a bit. You could also take the chance to show me that your Spandex-wearing Hero of Justice is more than a bag of powers and a set of trite, parroted so-called 'values' they barely understand. No, really, please do - I studied philosophy and ethics specifically because I enjoy those sorts of conversations, I'd enjoy talking to a Boy Scout-type character that can actually back itself up.
In summation/TL;DR: if I'm not actively doing something to screw with your day, keep your mouth shut. You never know whether the generic-looking succubus or werewolf-looking guy you're currently scorning has fifteen pages of detailed, well-written story packed away somewhere you aren't aware of.
Beautifully said.
Perhaps I should have said, "without bothering," rather than, "without hurting."
Even so, bother is in the eye of the beholder. That well thought out, and intricately woven into your character story, line you use to meet people who seem interesting to you could be every bit as bothersome to them as the lines you quoted above are to you.
Here's the deal. I'm all about what you're saying...
Except the part where you say for me to keep my damned mouth shut. Just as much as you have the freedom to express what YOU are, I- and anyone else- has a right to express what they feel about a generalized subject. Just because it's your concept doesn't put it in an impenetrable bubble force field. No one is slurring you, as a person. People are griping about what they like and don't like.
Funyuns. They suck and I hate them. Discuss.
The keep your mouth shut was in reference to people picking on others. Of course you can go to a forum and express your opinion on a generalized subject, but none of us have the right to approach others for the purpose of insulting what they enjoy. If that succubus is over there "RPing" with that...other Succubus, then its not the place of someone who thinks that succubi are overdone to interrupt so that he can tell them how much he loathes their preferred character type.