Hey Crush...so will these have a chance to add thread or is the only way to do that Tank role and Crippling Challenge / Challenging Strikes / Defensive Combo?
+threat generation is not currently a stat we are considering. The use of CC/CS and Tank role should fulfill that instead.
+threat generation is not currently a stat we are considering. The use of CC/CS and Tank role should fulfill that instead.
So basically there's no way to have a primary tank then? Just who can spam CC/CS the fastest? If I entered a PUG with the current settings we could have two different tanks fighting for control. This happens a lot already and is really annoying. I want to be able to have more threat than anyone on my team such that all incoming attacks are concentrated on me.
This can also be really annoying in open mission fights. If a build is done right the character with the best defenses should have the highest threat that way there isn't a chance of the weaker guy dying
So basically there's no way to have a primary tank then? Just who can spam CC/CS the fastest? If I entered a PUG with the current settings we could have two different tanks fighting for control. This happens a lot already and is really annoying. I want to be able to have more threat than anyone on my team such that all incoming attacks are concentrated on me.
This can also be really annoying in open mission fights. If a build is done right the character with the best defenses should have the highest threat that way there isn't a chance of the weaker guy dying
Well, if you have a bunch of Superstats in Tank role you will get more Threat than one who doesn't have as much invested in their Superstats.
As to why I have separated the stats (Dodge/Avoid and MM/Per), This allows me to give you bigger bonuses to those stats without breaking things. This also introduces some element of choice. Before you wanted to be a Dodge tank, you just got both. Now you have to make the choice of which you want more. Do I want more to more often dodge attacks? Or would I like to dodge for much more when I do. Which will benefit me more? These kinds of choices help make gear feel more personal, and give it more of the "This is part of MY build" feeling.
At the risk of being rude, ********. It doesn't matter if you can dodge a real 100% of damage (which we can't) if you only have a 1 in 10 chance doing it. That's not a defense. Not when your oponents can one shot you 10 times in a row without breaking a sweat. Even as dodge is now it's still entirely meaningless without Reiki or some other kind of heal, and that's with dodge AND avoidance. The actual dodging and avoiding part are secondary.
It almost works the other way too; it barely matters that you dodge every blow if you're only dodging 10% of the damage.
Dodge and avoidance also make very little sense conceptually - yes, it's possible some heroes would be better at dodging than others thus less chance of glancing blows or tripping and spraining your ankle, but for the most part, if you dodge the attack you dodged the attack. Not the first 2 knuckles, or the left side of the fireball. The mechanic seems redundant and comes off as yet another bad way to make Ego not be absolutely worthless at launch, which fine, we're stuck with it now, so be it, but making players choose between the two doesn't personalize the gearing experience, it makes it frustrating.
......Until you inflate the numbers to the point where you can pick one of each and still hit 65% / 85% anyway which is probably what's going to happen isn't it?
So basically there's no way to have a primary tank then? Just who can spam CC/CS the fastest? If I entered a PUG with the current settings we could have two different tanks fighting for control. This happens a lot already and is really annoying. I want to be able to have more threat than anyone on my team such that all incoming attacks are concentrated on me.
This can also be really annoying in open mission fights. If a build is done right the character with the best defenses should have the highest threat that way there isn't a chance of the weaker guy dying
I don't know much about tanking, but it seems like putting threat in gear could diminish the value of tank role. There were already complaints about people tanking in hybrid role. Wouldn't adding threat to gear put hybrids in a position to compete with tanks for threat?
I don't know much about tanking, but it seems like putting threat in gear could diminish the value of tank role. There were already complaints about people tanking in hybrid role. Wouldn't adding threat to gear put hybrids in a position to compete with tanks for threat?
Not if they were in any other role besides the tank role.
As to why I have separated the stats (Dodge/Avoid and MM/Per), This allows me to give you bigger bonuses to those stats without breaking things. This also introduces some element of choice. Before you wanted to be a Dodge tank, you just got both. Now you have to make the choice of which you want more. Do I want more to more often dodge attacks? Or would I like to dodge for much more when I do. Which will benefit me more? These kinds of choices help make gear feel more personal, and give it more of the "This is part of MY build" feeling.
You do know most of the people I frequent in game can do math right?
All you are doing is creating a situation where myself and my friends will find out the exact optimal ratio
between Dodge and Avoidance vs alternative cost (That sweet spot might end up being to ditch dodge as a mechanic completely mind you...) and we will stick to it, while less capable/uncaring players have just found a new place they can gimp themselves.
YOu didn't even address the FACT that Dodge without avoidance is worthless, just like Avoidance without dodge is worthless.
There is no argument there.
The ability to dodge with 10% mitgation is just as horrible as 90% mitigation with only 10% chance to dodge.
This will further keep pve players from wanting to try pvp as they are less likely to grind out the points that are needed to get the resilience gear.
Nah, I'm pretty sure us PVE only crowd stay away from PVP stuff entirely. I seriously doubt it will change anything. The ones that are PVP ignorant now will respond the same way if this is in place than if it wasn't.
The thing is not everyone that doesn't PvP is PvE only. I'm mostly PvE but have been trying to get into PvP lately and making gear separate will make things more difficult for me, or just about anyone that wants to participate in PvP (whether casual or hardcore PvP'ers) since almost everyone PvE's and has to grind PvE gear anyways, but making gear separate adds an addtional layer of grind for anyone that wants to even try out PvP and be effective.
At the risk of being rude, ********. It doesn't matter if you can dodge a real 100% of damage (which we can't) if you only have a 1 in 10 chance doing it. That's not a defense. Not when your oponents can one shot you 10 times in a row without breaking a sweat. Even as dodge is now it's still entirely meaningless without Reiki or some other kind of heal, and that's with dodge AND avoidance. The actual dodging and avoiding part are secondary.
It almost works the other way too; it barely matters that you dodge every blow if you're only dodging 10% of the damage.
Dodge and avoidance also make very little sense conceptually - yes, it's possible some heroes would be better at dodging than others thus less chance of glancing blows or tripping and spraining your ankle, but for the most part, if you dodge the attack you dodged the attack. Not the first 2 knuckles, or the left side of the fireball. The mechanic seems redundant and comes off as yet another bad way to make Ego not be absolutely worthless at launch, which fine, we're stuck with it now, so be it, but making players choose between the two doesn't personalize the gearing experience, it makes it frustrating.
......Until you inflate the numbers to the point where you can pick one of each and still hit 65% / 85% anyway which is probably what's going to happen isn't it?
Pretty much this^ and what The_Last said.
Plus Dodge/Avoidance mechanics are already too abstract and difficult enough for those of us that are "less capable/uncaring" to fully understand without adding an extra layer of complexity to it by giving us a choice between which co-depended stat to take, like we'll know what to do with that choice ("Gee, should I go with Dodge or Avoidance? Hmm, I don't know. Guess I wont take either and simply go with another stat and gimp my Quarry toon" ).
The ability to dodge with 10% mitgation is just as horrible as 90% mitigation with only 10% chance to dodge.
This is not reassuring of the future at all.
Bare minimum avoidance is 20% at the moment, but yeah.
You don't build a dodge tank out of dodge gear alone. You build a dodge tank out of gear + passive + other powers. And if you're building based on a passive, buffing your superstats will raise your dodge/avoid.
The only dodge-oriented builds at the moment that don't use a dodge-granting passive are Invuldodge builds, Defiance-dodge builds and occasionally healer builds running Seraphim and BCR to spam heals in PvP. No one else bothers with it because gaining a bit of dodge/avoidance when you aren't heavily backing it up with power choices or a passive isn't worth the stat cut for most builds.
Since the dodge/avoid gear doesn't cost you main stats, this means that even people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge will be able to pick it up without taking a main stat hit, which they wouldn't be able to do on Live, at least not through gear. Buffing someone with no dodge to even 25% dodge chance and 20% avoidance means that they have a 50% chance to cut 20% off of any incoming charged attack (like boss spikes), without it costing them stats.
I'm also pretty sure you can get dodge/avoidance on Secondary Defense gear with the new PTS setup, which makes this even better for people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge.
Invuldodge, Defiance-dodge and Seraphim-BCR-healspam builds are the only ones that are going to suffer from this, and they all need to be brought down a couple notches. For everyone else, it's basically free dodge or avoid that they can get if they want, at the cost of one of the other defensive substats (instead of being at the cost of a superstat or Con/Pre, like now)
Nah, I'm pretty sure us PVE only crowd stay away from PVP stuff entirely. I seriously doubt it will change anything. The ones that are PVP ignorant now will respond the same way if this is in place than if it wasn't.
I am primarily a PvEer who enjoys partaking in PvP in order to mix things up a bit. Separating the gear in this fashion means that dedicated PvPers, who already have an advantage in experience as well as builds designed specifically for PvP, will have a gear advantage that will likely keep me away from PvP entirely. There are already sufficient roadblocks to casual PvP in CO that ading another is a bad idea.
If I am not going to be able to use PvP as a means of breaking up the monotony of playing the same PvE content over and over, I hope that Cryptic intends to add a new Comic Series, Adventure Pack, or mini-zone every week in order to make up for their decision to remove so much playable content from the game for casual PvPers.
So basically there's no way to have a primary tank then? Just who can spam CC/CS the fastest? If I entered a PUG with the current settings we could have two different tanks fighting for control. This happens a lot already and is really annoying. I want to be able to have more threat than anyone on my team such that all incoming attacks are concentrated on me.
The other tank wants the same thing.
Wouldnt the solution be for the two tanks to decide between them that one will be the main tank while the other switches to Hybrid role and avoids using CC ?
Bare minimum avoidance is 20% at the moment, but yeah.
You don't build a dodge tank out of dodge gear alone. You build a dodge tank out of gear + passive + other powers. And if you're building based on a passive, buffing your superstats will raise your dodge/avoid.
On that note I would like everyone to make sure they know buffing your superstats does NOT effect the dodge bonus from Quarry. Quarry gives static dodge based on Audacity and Rank. So this does hit Quarry users a bit hard aswell.
On that note I would like everyone to make sure they know buffing your superstats does NOT effect the dodge bonus from Quarry. Quarry gives static dodge based on Audacity and Rank. So this does hit Quarry users a bit hard aswell.
Correct, at least on PTS, even with Int/Ego superstats.
I am primarily a PvEer who enjoys partaking in PvP in order to mix things up a bit. Separating the gear in this fashion means that dedicated PvPers, who already have an advantage in experience as well as builds designed specifically for PvP, will have a gear advantage that will likely keep me away from PvP entirely. There are already sufficient roadblocks to casual PvP in CO that ading another is a bad idea.
If I am not going to be able to use PvP as a means of breaking up the monotony of playing the same PvE content over and over, I hope that Cryptic intends to add a new Comic Series, Adventure Pack, or mini-zone every week in order to make up for their decision to remove so much playable content from the game for casual PvPers.
With the new gear its been stated numerous times that there are no more stat restrictions on items. There are only the sub stat restrictions as GC as posted.
-Yeah, this should have a positive impact, tho by the example gear on test, it does seem to complicate things for people familiar with the current system of restrictions (ie finding stats normally found in said slot)
We do not know what the new crafting/specialization is going to offer, but we do know that the best gear,
the purples, will be obtained from doing lairs on elite. IIRC, I think adventure packs and comic series and lairs and such on normal are before that.
I don't know if its been mentioned what is going to happen to unity, nemesis and pvp gear. All in all, while communication has been sporadic in the attempt of enticing us, we've not been given enough to pull the whole picture together yet.
Which is sort of funny, since the clock is now ticking if they want to get this stuff done by the end of the month.
That's what I mean - lotta changes but the existing problems don't really seem to be addressed. Since changing the gear in this fashion seems to be set in stone, what about all the loot tables etc that will need revision and how is a change this big expected to be ready in a short time frame?
-Yeah, this should have a positive impact, tho by the example gear on test, it does seem to complicate things for people familiar with the current system of restrictions (ie finding stats normally found in said slot)
That's what I mean - lotta changes but the existing problems don't really seem to be addressed. Since changing the gear in this fashion seems to be set in stone, what about all the loot tables etc that will need revision and how is a change this big expected to be ready in a short time frame?
Apprently it's all been re-itemized. I guess we have to run it to find out, since there aren't specifics.
Bare minimum avoidance is 20% at the moment, but yeah.
You don't build a dodge tank out of dodge gear alone. You build a dodge tank out of gear + passive + other powers. And if you're building based on a passive, buffing your superstats will raise your dodge/avoid.
The only dodge-oriented builds at the moment that don't use a dodge-granting passive are Invuldodge builds, Defiance-dodge builds and occasionally healer builds running Seraphim and BCR to spam heals in PvP. No one else bothers with it because gaining a bit of dodge/avoidance when you aren't heavily backing it up with power choices or a passive isn't worth the stat cut for most builds.
Since the dodge/avoid gear doesn't cost you main stats, this means that even people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge will be able to pick it up without taking a main stat hit, which they wouldn't be able to do on Live, at least not through gear. Buffing someone with no dodge to even 25% dodge chance and 20% avoidance means that they have a 50% chance to cut 20% off of any incoming charged attack (like boss spikes), without it costing them stats.
I'm also pretty sure you can get dodge/avoidance on Secondary Defense gear with the new PTS setup, which makes this even better for people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge.
Invuldodge, Defiance-dodge and Seraphim-BCR-healspam builds are the only ones that are going to suffer from this, and they all need to be brought down a couple notches. For everyone else, it's basically free dodge or avoid that they can get if they want, at the cost of one of the other defensive substats (instead of being at the cost of a superstat or Con/Pre, like now)
This doesn't make the gearing more meaningful tho. Assuming a dodge build that doesn't require dodge gear because of power selection the benefit of adding more dodge is minimal. And that's assuming there's no tradeoff of stats, which is kind of the point of the PvP vs PvE gear thing - a tradeoff of useful stats to the given situation.
If +dodge/avoid is in addition to a stat, then it's just a little extra flavoring on a piece of gear that more than likely everyone will try to get. That's not really a choice or making the gear/build "mine," it's just a better piece, much like how we already try to squeeze out every point we can. Choosing between dodge and avoidance will pretty much just come down to which is higher or more available, since you can't really rely on it. Unless, as I said, it's high enough values that we can get to 65% 85%.
If +dodge/avoid will be instead of some stat points it's barely a choice, much like it is now, except more so because we'll have to chose between the two on top of missing out on a stat. Unless the values are high enough that we can hit the 65% 85% sweet spot.
Either way this brings me to the point of "why would I pick a tertiary stat over a superstat?" Unless the benefit is noticeable I have no reason to ever add to something that isn't my superstat if it means choosing between the two.
It doesn't really matter tho, we'll just see how it plays out, but I have a feeling it'll go the same way as crit chance and severity, or anything else that has a dex/ego codependent relationship in game.
So dodge/avoid is now basically shield % and shield rating. (Which, I guess it always was, but now we're not getting all our shield stats on one piece of gear. Good thing I have half a tab of tower shields just kinda chilling. >.>
At a guess, stacking dodge/avoid is still going to be more valuable to non-dodge tanks than stacking defense would be to a dodger?
Meh.
What really concerns me is that Percep is tagged as PVP only. How is this going to play out for things like Those Viper Guys That Spam Smoke Nade Worse Than Half The Ren Center Duelists, or bosses like Amazing Grace that spend half the fight all like "haha, you can't see me!" Does this mean that the stat is only going to be available through PVP tokens, or that it's honestly only going to work against player stealth?
I do not like the idea of having no ability to see through NPC stealth. Call me a nancy. It may be an underutilized mechanic (why do more bosses not stealth in their scripts?), but it's one I still want the option to deal with.
What really concerns me is that Percep is tagged as PVP only. How is this going to play out for things like Those Viper Guys That Spam Smoke Nade Worse Than Half The Ren Center Duelists, or bosses like Amazing Grace that spend half the fight all like "haha, you can't see me!" Does this mean that the stat is only going to be available through PVP tokens, or that it's honestly only going to work against player stealth?
It means that it's labeled as being primarily useful in PvP. We've seen 'PvP' effects drop in PvE already.
Both yes and no. It means that "These stats are more desirable for PVP than PVE". Resilience and Armor Penetration from gear will both work on players only at this time, but perception remains unchanged.
Quoting myself from earlier! Please double check the thread before asking questions!
Also, gear not dropping at 41+ is indeed a bug, one I have fixed internally this morning.
If Resilience does prevent Penetration, then I see why Resilience and Armor Penetration are currently players only (How MANY mobs does have armor/armor pentrating attacks again?)
Although that could change later with the upcoming critter update.
Incidentally, if Penetration is 'reduces target Defense by its rating', it's an atrocious idea, because it means it's better against squishies than against tanks, and that's the last thing this game needs.
Dodge and avoidance are seperate?
Why are you seperating two effects that are useless without the other?
Well Kontrol has 476 INT, that should be independenty enough to see through "teleport" but without the minimap raduis it only works if someone teleporting is within 10ft
Incidentally, if Penetration is 'reduces target Defense by its rating', it's an atrocious idea, because it means it's better against squishies than against tanks, and that's the last thing this game needs.
That would be why ArP was such a mess in WoW. Crush did say it wouldn't be like WoW ArP and Resil, though... We'll see.
As to why I have separated the stats (Dodge/Avoid and MM/Per), This allows me to give you bigger bonuses to those stats without breaking things. This also introduces some element of choice. Before you wanted to be a Dodge tank, you just got both. Now you have to make the choice of which you want more. Do I want more to more often dodge attacks? Or would I like to dodge for much more when I do. Which will benefit me more? These kinds of choices help make gear feel more personal, and give it more of the "This is part of MY build" feeling.
This is a really good goal to have, and I'm glad you're considering it at all. However, I think this is a step backwards. Choosing one over the other doesn't change the way the game looks, feels or plays. There's no reason not to just take whichever will give you the most damage reduction overall, whereas those procs some others and I mentioned earlier can actually make you feel unique. Let me put it this way- do you think someone is more likely to remember your character as "that one who made claw slashes everywhere/was slowing the enemies with every attack/had knockback on a bunch of powers that shouldn't have it," or "that one who had lower dodge but really high avoidance instead of both being pretty good?"
So dodge/avoid is now basically shield % and shield rating. (Which, I guess it always was, but now we're not getting all our shield stats on one piece of gear.
Huh...Lightning Reflexes really is mechanically what would make sense (at least to me) for shields and force fields.
Interesting.
And I guess Force Field is, in a way, Lightning Reflexes. You dodge everything until you get tired.
I am still having a hard time justifying the new split of Dodge and Avoidance
because I don't get it. Actually, I have never fully understood how to do it.
I have been playing this game since 2008 and I still don't understand dodge
tanking or using dodge as a main way of defending.
I have seen it work and from the looks it seems to need about 5 or so active
defenses and/or heals to make the thing work, similar to a defiance tank.
I will admit I am a laymen when it comes to dodge and avoidance. I remember
how they are supposed to work. But they rarely act that way.
On test I have been seeing more dodged damage on my newly built INVL tank
version of my Regen main hero Nexus. I get that it lowers damage but I am
not seeing how the split helps.
I have a extra layer of defense now, one I didn't plan for, and so yay; however,
is there a way for someone to explain how it works to me clearly? Maybe I am
missing something.
Good news, the D/A split is actually cosmetic. You can rejoin D/A with modifiable gear, or stack extra Dodge or extra Avoidance instead. This was the highlight of the last update.
Hey everyone! I have been working dutifully on the items and wanted to share some cool stuff with you all. Those of you who have been on PTS have seen some of the new stats that appear on items now, and I want to give you guys the full list of Sub Stats (Stats that arent one of our 8 primary Stats) that you can have an a particular piece of equipment!
DISCLAIMER! ALL OF THESE ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME!
First up we have Offenses!
Bonus Offense
Critical Chance
Critical Severity
Bonus Healing
Bonus Superstat (this one adds points to your selected SS)
Armor Penetration (PVP)
Next up are Defenses!
Bonus Armor
Bonus Health
Crowd Control Resistance
Dodge
Avoidance
Resilience (PVP)
Lastly we have Utilities!
Cooldown Reduction
Power Cost Discount
Bonus Energy
Minimap Radius
Crowd Control Strength
Perception (PVP)
Finally, Armor penetration, was waiting for this, i'll be like a helicopter raining down armor piercing rockets at those tanks
This may have already been answered but will the new PvP items/enhancements also be using a new type of token or will they still just be purchased with acclaim?
This may have already been answered but will the new PvP items/enhancements also be using a new type of token or will they still just be purchased with acclaim?
Last I heard Acclaim will not be used for the new PvP gear, but will still be useful in some way. The new gear will be bought with some new type of PvP token.
Just curious on what will happen to damage resistance gear ( +50% crushing, elemental, paranormal, or energy damage resistance) I found them extremely useful for specific situations, I'd really like them to stay.
Hey, at least I'm aware that there are more important things for the Devs to deal with in this eq change but I just had an idea.
If the new gear is so much nicer than the old stuff, and mobs will be scaled to reflected the new "average" power level... maybe allow crafting to add one of these neat new specials to existing gear? IE adding
"Critical Severity" or "Bonus Healing" to an offense item already in existence.
Been with my friend the debugger for about an hour trying to find +Minimap gear. Can I assume it's not a mechanic anymore? I hope it is.. perception and INT should have a % minimap built inside them Dex has +Stealth built into it.. why should perception need to go get another piece of gear just to work when Dex does not need gear to improve it's stealth?
IF it is indeed gone can we add +Shield Strength to Utility.. This would massively help PFF and bubble users, not to mention the possibility of it adding to IDF now that it's nerfed.
Is Perception ONLY available through the PvP vedors now? The teleport spamming defile/ruin pestilence+ascension builds .. please.. think about these vile creatures and give us +Shield Strength and DoT resistance
Also what are "Armor Penetration" and "Resiliance" specifically.. I want (need) solid numbers as to what they do.
Most comic book characters do not derive ability from objects. So far all the new gear I have seen has been objects ... boots, vests, etc.
Gear, by the old system, was a way to define the source of the superhero's abilities.
Instead of all the new titles and new images for gear, why not something more simple that allows gear to express the concept of the character? Why not just use the R&D branches of the old system for the titles of the new... "Mutation" or maybe "Primary Offensive Mutation"?
Most comic book characters do not derive ability from objects. So far all the new gear I have seen has been objects ... boots, vests, etc.
Gear, by the old system, was a way to define the source of the superhero's abilities.
Instead of all the new titles and new images for gear, why not something more simple that allows gear to express the concept of the character? Why not just use the R&D branches of the old system for the titles of the new... "Mutation" or maybe "Primary Offensive Mutation"?
I think the whole naming systems lacks creativity.
Yes, there is absolutely no way to slow down someone with new gear, get the spec that ignores snares and take some crowd resist gear, immune to holds, roots and snares, i'm not even talking melee being useless, even a ranged toon can't land a hit if someone decides to run. Also the perma AO, AD rotation, this is going to be a great patch when all is ready, but it's at least 3 weeks from now, if this build hits live in a week all those who were taking a break till this patch certainly won't return if they see it at this state.
Agreed about the CC resist gear/mods. Way too powerful vs holds and stuns. Also, I remember hearing CC resist gear/mods are supposed to work against knocks as well but my earlier testing appeared to disprove that.
Agreed about the CC resist gear/mods. Way too powerful vs holds and stuns. Also, I remember hearing CC resist gear/mods are supposed to work against knocks as well but my earlier testing appeared to disprove that.
Well... if you can gear up to become immune to stuns, holds, roots and knocks, I won't complain. 'Spam z-key to continue playing' was never my idea of fun and involved combat.. and I didn't enjoy too much the tentapull-knock-tentapull-knock spam the mutated general does at the end of Whiteout either. CO has IMO way too many and way too frequent complitely disabling attacks. I'd rather see things gravitate more towards attack-and-counter than disable-and-spam-Z.
Of course, I can see how this would pretty much kill PvP by bringing things towards 'either one-shot or forget it'. But I imagine PvP overall could use a complite overhaul, and probably would work best if it was balanced separately from PvE. PvE mechanisms on CO are generally not tuned to combat between parties of equal strength. Usually you're either slaughtering masses of henchies, or you're ganging up against some legendary or cosmic entity. PvE doesn't need the finesse that's necessary to balance things to be equal to both sides. PvP on the other hand is hurt by the kind of combos you have to be able to use to defend against, and bring down something that has 1,500,000 health, and can smack you with 50,000 point criticals.
The hold resist on Live works the same way, Yuki. People just don't take it..
I disagree with your "i should be immune to holds with one piece of gear" argument. I've stated reasons in many threads by now. It is hard for me to 'care' because PvP will be terribad after this goes live anyway.. holds or no holds.
IF it is indeed gone can we add +Shield Strength to Utility.. This would massively help PFF and bubble users, not to mention the possibility of it adding to IDF now that it's nerfed.
The hold resist on Live works the same way, Yuki. People just don't take it..
I disagree with your "i should be immune to holds with one piece of gear" argument. I've stated reasons in many threads by now. It is hard for me to 'care' because PvP will be terribad after this goes live anyway.. holds or no holds.
Perhaps because it's useless? The knocks are usually the worst issue anyhow. I've tried filling two gear slots with knock resistance, and it didn't do anything noticable. The only way I've found I can resist knocks fairly well without superstatting strength, was to take primal circle AND hold down block. And that still didn't help against knock-to because the circle doesn't buff against it.
I simply don't like the strength and frequency of disable effects in CO. It's an extreme effect that temporarily stops you from playing the game, and it shouldn't be a common occurence in almost every fight. It doesn't make the fight more enjoyable or challenging to me, just frustrating.
Ok, it's not 'common occurence in almost every fight' if you also count slaughtering henchies on normal difficulty, using a high damage build. The poor dummies kick the bucket before they have time to even start fighting back.
Comments
+threat generation is not currently a stat we are considering. The use of CC/CS and Tank role should fulfill that instead.
So basically there's no way to have a primary tank then? Just who can spam CC/CS the fastest? If I entered a PUG with the current settings we could have two different tanks fighting for control. This happens a lot already and is really annoying. I want to be able to have more threat than anyone on my team such that all incoming attacks are concentrated on me.
This can also be really annoying in open mission fights. If a build is done right the character with the best defenses should have the highest threat that way there isn't a chance of the weaker guy dying
At the risk of being rude, ********. It doesn't matter if you can dodge a real 100% of damage (which we can't) if you only have a 1 in 10 chance doing it. That's not a defense. Not when your oponents can one shot you 10 times in a row without breaking a sweat. Even as dodge is now it's still entirely meaningless without Reiki or some other kind of heal, and that's with dodge AND avoidance. The actual dodging and avoiding part are secondary.
It almost works the other way too; it barely matters that you dodge every blow if you're only dodging 10% of the damage.
Dodge and avoidance also make very little sense conceptually - yes, it's possible some heroes would be better at dodging than others thus less chance of glancing blows or tripping and spraining your ankle, but for the most part, if you dodge the attack you dodged the attack. Not the first 2 knuckles, or the left side of the fireball. The mechanic seems redundant and comes off as yet another bad way to make Ego not be absolutely worthless at launch, which fine, we're stuck with it now, so be it, but making players choose between the two doesn't personalize the gearing experience, it makes it frustrating.
......Until you inflate the numbers to the point where you can pick one of each and still hit 65% / 85% anyway which is probably what's going to happen isn't it?
I don't know much about tanking, but it seems like putting threat in gear could diminish the value of tank role. There were already complaints about people tanking in hybrid role. Wouldn't adding threat to gear put hybrids in a position to compete with tanks for threat?
Not if they were in any other role besides the tank role.
You do know most of the people I frequent in game can do math right?
All you are doing is creating a situation where myself and my friends will find out the exact optimal ratio
between Dodge and Avoidance vs alternative cost (That sweet spot might end up being to ditch dodge as a mechanic completely mind you...) and we will stick to it, while less capable/uncaring players have just found a new place they can gimp themselves.
YOu didn't even address the FACT that Dodge without avoidance is worthless, just like Avoidance without dodge is worthless.
There is no argument there.
The ability to dodge with 10% mitgation is just as horrible as 90% mitigation with only 10% chance to dodge.
This is not reassuring of the future at all.
The thing is not everyone that doesn't PvP is PvE only. I'm mostly PvE but have been trying to get into PvP lately and making gear separate will make things more difficult for me, or just about anyone that wants to participate in PvP (whether casual or hardcore PvP'ers) since almost everyone PvE's and has to grind PvE gear anyways, but making gear separate adds an addtional layer of grind for anyone that wants to even try out PvP and be effective.
Pretty much this^ and what The_Last said.
Plus Dodge/Avoidance mechanics are already too abstract and difficult enough for those of us that are "less capable/uncaring" to fully understand without adding an extra layer of complexity to it by giving us a choice between which co-depended stat to take, like we'll know what to do with that choice ("Gee, should I go with Dodge or Avoidance? Hmm, I don't know. Guess I wont take either and simply go with another stat and gimp my Quarry toon"
Bare minimum avoidance is 20% at the moment, but yeah.
You don't build a dodge tank out of dodge gear alone. You build a dodge tank out of gear + passive + other powers. And if you're building based on a passive, buffing your superstats will raise your dodge/avoid.
The only dodge-oriented builds at the moment that don't use a dodge-granting passive are Invuldodge builds, Defiance-dodge builds and occasionally healer builds running Seraphim and BCR to spam heals in PvP. No one else bothers with it because gaining a bit of dodge/avoidance when you aren't heavily backing it up with power choices or a passive isn't worth the stat cut for most builds.
Since the dodge/avoid gear doesn't cost you main stats, this means that even people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge will be able to pick it up without taking a main stat hit, which they wouldn't be able to do on Live, at least not through gear. Buffing someone with no dodge to even 25% dodge chance and 20% avoidance means that they have a 50% chance to cut 20% off of any incoming charged attack (like boss spikes), without it costing them stats.
I'm also pretty sure you can get dodge/avoidance on Secondary Defense gear with the new PTS setup, which makes this even better for people who otherwise wouldn't touch dodge.
Invuldodge, Defiance-dodge and Seraphim-BCR-healspam builds are the only ones that are going to suffer from this, and they all need to be brought down a couple notches. For everyone else, it's basically free dodge or avoid that they can get if they want, at the cost of one of the other defensive substats (instead of being at the cost of a superstat or Con/Pre, like now)
Problem is the other guy on your team wants the same thing Rox.
I am primarily a PvEer who enjoys partaking in PvP in order to mix things up a bit. Separating the gear in this fashion means that dedicated PvPers, who already have an advantage in experience as well as builds designed specifically for PvP, will have a gear advantage that will likely keep me away from PvP entirely. There are already sufficient roadblocks to casual PvP in CO that ading another is a bad idea.
If I am not going to be able to use PvP as a means of breaking up the monotony of playing the same PvE content over and over, I hope that Cryptic intends to add a new Comic Series, Adventure Pack, or mini-zone every week in order to make up for their decision to remove so much playable content from the game for casual PvPers.
The other tank wants the same thing.
Wouldnt the solution be for the two tanks to decide between them that one will be the main tank while the other switches to Hybrid role and avoids using CC ?
On that note I would like everyone to make sure they know buffing your superstats does NOT effect the dodge bonus from Quarry. Quarry gives static dodge based on Audacity and Rank. So this does hit Quarry users a bit hard aswell.
Correct, at least on PTS, even with Int/Ego superstats.
It does raise it for LR and WotW though.
So good.
-Yeah, this should have a positive impact, tho by the example gear on test, it does seem to complicate things for people familiar with the current system of restrictions (ie finding stats normally found in said slot)
That's what I mean - lotta changes but the existing problems don't really seem to be addressed. Since changing the gear in this fashion seems to be set in stone, what about all the loot tables etc that will need revision and how is a change this big expected to be ready in a short time frame?
Apprently it's all been re-itemized. I guess we have to run it to find out, since there aren't specifics.
This doesn't make the gearing more meaningful tho. Assuming a dodge build that doesn't require dodge gear because of power selection the benefit of adding more dodge is minimal. And that's assuming there's no tradeoff of stats, which is kind of the point of the PvP vs PvE gear thing - a tradeoff of useful stats to the given situation.
If +dodge/avoid is in addition to a stat, then it's just a little extra flavoring on a piece of gear that more than likely everyone will try to get. That's not really a choice or making the gear/build "mine," it's just a better piece, much like how we already try to squeeze out every point we can. Choosing between dodge and avoidance will pretty much just come down to which is higher or more available, since you can't really rely on it. Unless, as I said, it's high enough values that we can get to 65% 85%.
If +dodge/avoid will be instead of some stat points it's barely a choice, much like it is now, except more so because we'll have to chose between the two on top of missing out on a stat. Unless the values are high enough that we can hit the 65% 85% sweet spot.
Either way this brings me to the point of "why would I pick a tertiary stat over a superstat?" Unless the benefit is noticeable I have no reason to ever add to something that isn't my superstat if it means choosing between the two.
It doesn't really matter tho, we'll just see how it plays out, but I have a feeling it'll go the same way as crit chance and severity, or anything else that has a dex/ego codependent relationship in game.
At a guess, stacking dodge/avoid is still going to be more valuable to non-dodge tanks than stacking defense would be to a dodger?
Meh.
What really concerns me is that Percep is tagged as PVP only. How is this going to play out for things like Those Viper Guys That Spam Smoke Nade Worse Than Half The Ren Center Duelists, or bosses like Amazing Grace that spend half the fight all like "haha, you can't see me!" Does this mean that the stat is only going to be available through PVP tokens, or that it's honestly only going to work against player stealth?
I do not like the idea of having no ability to see through NPC stealth. Call me a nancy. It may be an underutilized mechanic (why do more bosses not stealth in their scripts?), but it's one I still want the option to deal with.
Quoting myself from earlier! Please double check the thread before asking questions!
Also, gear not dropping at 41+ is indeed a bug, one I have fixed internally this morning.
Although that could change later with the upcoming critter update.
Well Kontrol has 476 INT, that should be independenty enough to see through "teleport" but without the minimap raduis it only works if someone teleporting is within 10ft
That would be why ArP was such a mess in WoW. Crush did say it wouldn't be like WoW ArP and Resil, though... We'll see.
This is a really good goal to have, and I'm glad you're considering it at all. However, I think this is a step backwards. Choosing one over the other doesn't change the way the game looks, feels or plays. There's no reason not to just take whichever will give you the most damage reduction overall, whereas those procs some others and I mentioned earlier can actually make you feel unique. Let me put it this way- do you think someone is more likely to remember your character as "that one who made claw slashes everywhere/was slowing the enemies with every attack/had knockback on a bunch of powers that shouldn't have it," or "that one who had lower dodge but really high avoidance instead of both being pretty good?"
Huh...Lightning Reflexes really is mechanically what would make sense (at least to me) for shields and force fields.
Interesting.
And I guess Force Field is, in a way, Lightning Reflexes. You dodge everything until you get tired.
thought it would be relevant due to the previous posts.
because I don't get it. Actually, I have never fully understood how to do it.
I have been playing this game since 2008 and I still don't understand dodge
tanking or using dodge as a main way of defending.
I have seen it work and from the looks it seems to need about 5 or so active
defenses and/or heals to make the thing work, similar to a defiance tank.
I will admit I am a laymen when it comes to dodge and avoidance. I remember
how they are supposed to work. But they rarely act that way.
On test I have been seeing more dodged damage on my newly built INVL tank
version of my Regen main hero Nexus. I get that it lowers damage but I am
not seeing how the split helps.
I have a extra layer of defense now, one I didn't plan for, and so yay; however,
is there a way for someone to explain how it works to me clearly? Maybe I am
missing something.
Finally, Armor penetration, was waiting for this, i'll be like a helicopter raining down armor piercing rockets at those tanks
If the new gear is so much nicer than the old stuff, and mobs will be scaled to reflected the new "average" power level... maybe allow crafting to add one of these neat new specials to existing gear? IE adding
"Critical Severity" or "Bonus Healing" to an offense item already in existence.
Feh. I know it's a crazy idea.
+S
IF it is indeed gone can we add +Shield Strength to Utility.. This would massively help PFF and bubble users, not to mention the possibility of it adding to IDF now that it's nerfed.
Is Perception ONLY available through the PvP vedors now? The teleport spamming defile/ruin pestilence+ascension builds .. please.. think about these vile creatures and give us +Shield Strength and DoT resistance
Also what are "Armor Penetration" and "Resiliance" specifically.. I want (need) solid numbers as to what they do.
Gear, by the old system, was a way to define the source of the superhero's abilities.
Instead of all the new titles and new images for gear, why not something more simple that allows gear to express the concept of the character? Why not just use the R&D branches of the old system for the titles of the new... "Mutation" or maybe "Primary Offensive Mutation"?
I think the whole naming systems lacks creativity.
Agreed.
The "new" hold system they 'want to look at' in this pass has not been implimented.
Currently +HoldResist seems to work incredibly well however +HoldStrength does nothing..
More on my tests here.
Yes, there is absolutely no way to slow down someone with new gear, get the spec that ignores snares and take some crowd resist gear, immune to holds, roots and snares, i'm not even talking melee being useless, even a ranged toon can't land a hit if someone decides to run. Also the perma AO, AD rotation, this is going to be a great patch when all is ready, but it's at least 3 weeks from now, if this build hits live in a week all those who were taking a break till this patch certainly won't return if they see it at this state.
Well... if you can gear up to become immune to stuns, holds, roots and knocks, I won't complain.
Of course, I can see how this would pretty much kill PvP by bringing things towards 'either one-shot or forget it'. But I imagine PvP overall could use a complite overhaul, and probably would work best if it was balanced separately from PvE. PvE mechanisms on CO are generally not tuned to combat between parties of equal strength. Usually you're either slaughtering masses of henchies, or you're ganging up against some legendary or cosmic entity. PvE doesn't need the finesse that's necessary to balance things to be equal to both sides. PvP on the other hand is hurt by the kind of combos you have to be able to use to defend against, and bring down something that has 1,500,000 health, and can smack you with 50,000 point criticals.
I disagree with your "i should be immune to holds with one piece of gear" argument. I've stated reasons in many threads by now. It is hard for me to 'care' because PvP will be terribad after this goes live anyway.. holds or no holds.
i support this 100000%
You know some of the +Heal Strength boosts also buff Shield strength, right?
I didn't know that.. but isn't +HealStrength in Offense?
Perhaps because it's useless? The knocks are usually the worst issue anyhow. I've tried filling two gear slots with knock resistance, and it didn't do anything noticable. The only way I've found I can resist knocks fairly well without superstatting strength, was to take primal circle AND hold down block. And that still didn't help against knock-to because the circle doesn't buff against it.
I simply don't like the strength and frequency of disable effects in CO. It's an extreme effect that temporarily stops you from playing the game, and it shouldn't be a common occurence in almost every fight. It doesn't make the fight more enjoyable or challenging to me, just frustrating.
Ok, it's not 'common occurence in almost every fight' if you also count slaughtering henchies on normal difficulty, using a high damage build. The poor dummies kick the bucket before they have time to even start fighting back.