Talking pve you can't be more wrong, even with no stacks of enraged with pest on elite clearing sl bunkers is ~2 minutes, with AoPM way slower, pest takes the cake hands down, no competition. That's for pretty much every content there is since it's best AoE "buff", only boss fights are a different story, and there AoPM also comes second, 1st being Quarry with Dclaws that was prooven many times over in Tako events.
I'm inclined to agree with Vixy on this one and I wouldn't call the tako event a relevant test considering the out come relies entirely on the people attending and their builds.
Err that's like saying, "I clear regular zone mobs with pest way faster" - it doesn't matter.
Try Elite scaled TT. For anything that involves a team, AoPM is the obvious choice. And even going solo, nothing beats crits + Enrage + Toggle.
There is absolutely no reason to take any other passive as things stand when it comes to high-end gameplay.
TLDR: AoPM definitely competes against the best passives solo....as soon as you add in a team it totally destroys them. On PTS this effect will be even more pronounced due to the new gear and the number of useful effects that scale with your SS via the role changes.
Talking of teams - a mixed team will perform better than AoPM only. As for crits+enraged+toggle - you can do that with pest too, so i don't see how this makes a point.
To those whom might find this conversation of topic i can say it's on topic because the new gear correlation with passives is discussed.
While that would work, completely restructuring avoidance isn't really part of the item discussion. And I could just have the items give relatively less D/A so they provide bonuses that are similar to what is lost (I just have to decide how far up I want that balance point to sit)
So instead of a quality fix that leaves all parties at a nominal benefit, you would rather use the one that nerds dodge avoidance build to "get at" the stacking builds....
Ok so stacking builds become the clear obvious choice as a result.
The quantum substrate of this game's universe is soo broken....
You have a tough road to travel.
Talking of teams - a mixed team will perform better than AoPM only. As for crits+enraged+toggle - you can do that with pest too, so i don't see how this makes a point.
To those whom might find this conversation of topic i can say it's on topic because the new gear correlation with passives is discussed.
Do you actually test anything, or is all your basis "what I think?"
I mean have you actually tested what you are saying up there....
I'm inclined to agree with Vixy on this one and I wouldn't call the tako event a relevant test considering the out come relies entirely on the people attending and their builds.
Well it's a very good test, since every Tako fight something like ~75 people are pitting themselves in a dps race against others and Quarry Dclaw comes on top, thats a classic example of a scientific study - you take an X number of subjects, give them the same challenge and through testing multiple times and indicating the same end result you can draw conclusions based on facts not assumptions and the fact is Quarry Dclaws will always outdps AoPM.
Well it's a very good test, since every Tako fight something like ~75 people are pitting themselves in a dps race against others and Quarry Dclaw comes on top, thats a classic example of a scientific study - you take an X number of subjects, give them the same challenge and through testing multiple times and indicating the same end result you can draw conclusions based on facts not assumptions and the fact is Quarry Dclaws will always outdps AoPM.
Did you test this on the new PTS game universe?
Live performance is not really relevant to AOPM's performance on PTS.
Do you actually test anything, or is all your basis "what I think?"
I mean have you actually tested what you are saying up there....
Vixy really knows her game.
Yes multiple times a mixed team proves a better choice than a sole AoPM one. Simple math, Offensives do more damage than AoPM so if they don't die clearing any content is easier using not solely AoPM.
Again another example of PvE is Tleleosaurus hunting, you won't see many AoPMs doing that.
You don't see how crits + enrage + toggle is better with aopm than it is with pest?
Vixy's not talking about mixed teams vs all out AoPM ones.....though depending on the setup pretty sure all AoPM would still win.
Vixy's talking about total team DPS output with an AoPM member vs. total team DPS output with a Quarry or Pest teammate. And we're talking about optimal builds.
Arguments that discuss "most players blah" are pointless since most players do not play optimally.
It should be pretty obvious why AoPM crit + enrage + toggle wins over Pest crit + enrage + toggle.
You don't see how crits + enrage + toggle is better with aopm than it is with pest?
Vixy's not talking about mixed teams vs all out AoPM ones.....though depending on the setup pretty sure all AoPM would still win.
Vixy's talking about total team DPS output with an AoPM member vs. total team DPS output with a Quarry or Pest teammate. And we're talking about optimal builds.
Arguments that discuss "most players blah" are pointless since most players do not play optimally.
It should be pretty obvious why AoPM crit + enrage + toggle wins over Pest crit + enrage + toggle.
Well it doesn't, AoE damage you can pull off with all buffs and pest is higher than AoE damage with all buffs and AoPM. Even if going for maintained dps or spikes offensives are still ahead of AoPM after all buffs by ~15%.
And additional bonus from for teammates to your stats will not influence that damage difference too much. So having ~2 AoPMs in a team will be enough.
And talking about team vs team, just 1 person with TK Wave and psychic tides adv can incapacitate bubble healers, then pests can melt them in seconds. ~10k AoPM looses 1/3rd of health after the 1st FG+sonic+1st Pest tick.
And i don't want to be misinterpreted, i'm saying at the moment in pts the passives are of equal worth to a team, so none of them should loose any effectiveness if the other one retains it.
Well it doesn't, AoE damage you can pull off with all buffs and pest is higher than AoE damage with all buffs and AoPM. Even if going for maintained dps or spikes offensives are still ahead of AoPM after all buffs by ~15%.
And additional bonus from for teammates to your stats will not influence that damage difference too much. So having ~2 AoPMs in a team will be enough.
Can you prove it please?
Make a couple of builds and show your work and results.
Make a couple of builds and show your work and results.
Ok will do, since a snapshot speaks louder than words (weekend is almost here so i guess i'll do that on sunday).
Though you can easily find this out for yourself, just do a standard spiker build, str (enraged) con (for imbued) sniper or anything and do it with the same gear on AoPM and the matching your damage type offensive passive. You will see the result backs my claim.
Well it doesn't, AoE damage you can pull off with all buffs and pest is higher than AoE damage with all buffs and AoPM. Even if going for maintained dps or spikes offensives are still ahead of AoPM after all buffs by ~15%.
Totally disagree. Stats make a massive difference to added DPS especially if you measure it over a long enough period of time to account for Active Defense and Active Offense rotation, encounters with various types of mobs, bosses, etc....runs with different groups.
Vixy's talking about total team DPS output with an AoPM member vs. total team DPS output with a Quarry or Pest teammate. And we're talking about optimal builds.
And talking about team vs team, just 1 person with TK Wave and psychic tides adv can incapacitate bubble healers, then pests can melt them in seconds. ~10k AoPM looses 1/3rd of health after the 1st FG+sonic+1st Pest tick.
Ok will do, since a snapshot speaks louder than words (weekend is almost here so i guess i'll do that on sunday).
Though you can easily find this out for yourself, just do a standard spiker build, str (enraged) con (for imbued) sniper or anything and do it with the same gear on AoPM and the matching your damage type offensive passive. You will see the result backs my claim.
No you can't easily do it by yourself....if you could then, by definition, your test would be invalid.
Totally disagree. Stats make a massive difference to added DPS especially if you measure it over a long enough period of time to account for Active Defense and Active Offense rotation, encounters with various types of mobs, bosses, etc....runs with different groups.
Not sure what you're talking about? This is the scenario in question....
Irrelevant and way too specific.
Nothing lasts that long so that the amount of time decrease on AO's would have a noticable effect, and AO after all the buffs gives you like <5% overall dmg increase due to all diminishing returns so totally insignificant.
Any scenario featuring a team. 2 AoPMs are enough to buff and heal teammates so that their superior dps wins the day.
Relevant cause it is an example that explains how your claim that a full AoPM team wins vs a Mixed one is wrong. I gave a specific set of powers that can be used very effectively against the best thing AOPM has to offer - energy efficiency and that's the single reason to pick AoPM.
No you can't easily do it by yourself....if you could then, by definition, your test would be invalid.
Unless you are referring to a team test you're wrong, for solo test of AoPM vs offense you can, for a team test with added bonuses from teammates ofc you can't do it alone, but i wasn't talking of that.
Relevant cause it is an example that explains how your claim that a full AoPM team is wins vs a Mixed one is wrong. I gave a specific set of powers that can be used very effectively against the best thing AOPM has to offer - energy efficiency and that's the single reason to pick AoPM.
Not relevant because it's too specific. It's like saying that a full team of energy form passives sucks because Vixy can take skarns bane and shut them all down. Also the sky is blue and Vixy's hair is soft. Has nothing to do with the rest of the game or DPS output in PvE.
And the single best reason to take AoPM is energy efficiency? Are you joking? No wonder you think Pest is better.
Unless you are referring to a team test you're wrong, for solo test of AoPM vs offense you can, for a team test with added bonuses from teammates ofc you can't do it alone, but i wasn't talking of that.
A solo test is invalid...because you're ignoring one of the biggest benefits of aopm. So obviously the reference was not to a solo test.
You're measuring DPS over the course of one kill....try measuring over the course of an entire lair run. AO rotation has a big impact.
Totally wrong. Especially in an AoPM setup designed to take full advantage of the secondary effects of AOs.
Why would they heal when they can just kill everything.
Not relevant because it's too specific. It's like saying that a full team of energy form passives sucks because Vixy can take skarns bane and shut them all down. Also the sky is blue and Vixy's hair is soft. Has nothing to do with the rest of the game or DPS output in PvE.
And the single best reason to take AoPM is energy efficiency? Are you joking? No wonder you think Pest is better.
A run is a sequence of single kills, therefore your statement is invalid, there is no enemies not ranked super villain than can withstand a single epidemic maintain from enraged pest and you don't need an AO for that. The damage of the power itself in pest epidemic vs aopm epidemic is ~equal but when you add the pest ticks they outweigh the additional dmg bonus from AO's and the dmg buff increase due to aopm teammates significantly. To match that damage with aopm you would need constant ego surge and that's not happening.
Well it is relevant because you gave a set of circumstances and i gave a counter to that, it was you who stated that aopm team wins vs a mixed one, that's simply not happening and i just gave one example of why mixed is better.
And what other reason is there really? Dps wise offensives are better, defense wise defensive passives are better, healing wise seraph is better. The only real reason is energy for bubble healer (that are countered with tk wave + adv) and for spikers for the same reason + higher con to fuel imbue while at the same time having percep gear equipped. That the whole reason for this debate, i'm saying that with the new gear and it's possibilities the offensive passives are worthwhile to use again and pest isn't the single best obvious choice.
A run is a sequence of single kills, therefore your statement is invalid, there is no enemies not ranked super villain than can withstand a single epidemic maintain from enraged pest and you don't need an AO for that.
Just run the DPS test across a full lair run and you'll see. Sum of series of single kills =/= lair run. There's DPS measured over 2.5 seconds and then there's DPS measured over 30 minutes....the builds that produce optimal dps output in one vs. another look very different from each other.
The damage of the power itself in pest epidemic vs aopm epidemic is ~equal but when you add the pest ticks they outweigh the additional dmg bonus from AO's and the dmg buff increase due to aopm teammates significantly.
Of course Pest is better if your comparison uses the powers that paint it in the best light.
An optimal AoPM setup would not use Epidemic. A higher energy cost maintain that also deals higher base damage would speak better to AoPMs benefits...just like Epidemic works best with Pest.
Well it is relevant because you gave a set of circumstances and i gave a counter to that, it was you who stated that aopm team wins vs a mixed one, that's simply not happening and i just gave one example of why mixed is better.
Wins in a DPS race not in PvP, which is far too circumstantial for this argument.
And what other reason is there really?.......That the whole reason for this debate, i'm saying that with the new gear and it's possibilities the offensive passives are worthwhile to use again.
Because it buffs your team, because it buffs separate damage layers allowing you to circumvent DR, because another AoPM buffs your ability to buff them and vice versa, because it buffs everything that scales from stats allowing you to more easily cherry pick the best powers for the job......
Energy efficiency is about the last reason to take it. Not the first.
You're not about to convince anyone with the flawed tests and comparisons in your examples.
Anyways, we're off the beaten path...Vixy's point is: if things stay as they are, the optimal and painfully obvious choice easily becomes AoPM for the vast majority of the content in this game and Vixy would prefer for that choice to be a bit less obvious....so that it's actually a choice.
However not so related that there should be an endless war in this thread if AoPM i better than anything else or not. Really time to stop that discussion here and make a new thread for it if that should go further for the next
20 pages :rolleyes:
However not so related that there should be an endless war in this thread if AoPM i better than anything else or not. Really time to stop that discussion here and make a new thread for it if that should go further for the next
20 pages :rolleyes:
Ending this discussion as we won't reach an agreement anyway, but the claim that AoPM is the answer to all situations is false, i gave examples and she calls them circumstantial, thus she claims they are irrelevant, well everything is circumstantial therefore she is contradicting herself in the argument, see no further purpose to discuss the matter, but would hate to see AoPM nerfed due to her statements that are not exactly reality based.
I suppose if you want to pit Rift against Swtor and exclude WoW from the test, then Swtor would be the number 1 video game in the world?
Tako is not a relevant test, because do you know the builders? How do you know the other builds aren't gimped? how do you know that the AoPM builders arent just grimoire AT's?
Further more, my team are generally the people who come in first (when were there at tako fights and I can promise you, we dont have any Quarry/DC builds there... As a matter of Fact most of them are Fire Form or WoTW and when we do go the AoPR (Aura of Primal Rage) route, theyre normally on the top of the list.
I want to know how you would go about Stating for your Enrage Pesti build and tell me how and Why it would be better than doing the same with AoPM because from where im sitting, with Pesti, youre looking at either going Enrage or Dex because if you just go Dex+Str, youre not going to have a whole lot of points to put into int or ego unless you want to spreading your stats rather thin and if you don't spread yourself too thin, you wont have enough int to keep your enrage up and then you start running into your energy problems.
Sure, you have a Toxic Resistance Debuff and a DoT on your Pesti Passive, But AoPM is going to offer you A Higher Crit Rate, Higher Strength Base for your Enrage, a Higher Crit Severity Rate (on live anyway) and Better energy management than you're going to get with Pesti and I promise you, it pays off in the long run.
With AoPM, you can essentially stat for 4 specific stats or 3 Major stats at the very least and still be relatively high in the fourth stat and still have plenty of benefits from the remaining stats... it solves just about any problem you could have.
As far as Teleiosaurus goes, some of the higher DPSers (Vixy included) were AoPR builds, the reason why you wont see a lot of them now is because we don't like enrage and the people who didnt mind it (Iso and Leo as a few more examples) aren't around much anymore. That's not to say it's a bad power because its not and to be honest, a lot of my builds would be a lot better if I were to go AoPR, but I and a large majority of my team do not like the maintenance involved with Enrage.
I suppose if you want to pit Rift against Swtor and exclude WoW from the test, then Swtor would be the number 1 video game in the world?
Tako is not a relevant test, because do you know the builders? How do you know the other builds aren't gimped? how do you know that the AoPM builders arent just grimoire AT's?
Further more, my team are generally the people who come in first (when were there at tako fights and I can promise you, we dont have any Quarry/DC builds there... As a matter of Fact most of them are Fire Form or WoTW and when we do go the AoPR (Aura of Primal Rage) route, theyre normally on the top of the list.
I want to know how you would go about Stating for your Enrage Pesti build and tell me how and Why it would be better than doing the same with AoPM because from where im sitting, with Pesti, youre looking at either going Enrage or Dex because if you just go Dex+Str, youre not going to have a whole lot of points to put into int or ego unless you want to spreading your stats rather thin and if you don't spread yourself too thin, you wont have enough int to keep your enrage up and then you start running into your energy problems.
Sure, you have a Toxic Resistance Debuff and a DoT on your Pesti Passive, But AoPM is going to offer you A Higher Crit Rate, Higher Strength Base for your Enrage, a Higher Crit Severity Rate (on live anyway) and Better energy management than you're going to get with Pesti and I promise you, it pays off in the long run.
With AoPM, you can essentially stat for 4 specific stats or 3 Major stats at the very least and still be relatively high in the fourth stat and still have plenty of benefits from the remaining stats... it solves just about any problem you could have.
As far as Teleiosaurus goes, some of the higher DPSers (Vixy included) were AoPR builds, the reason why you wont see a lot of them now is because we don't like enrage and the people who didnt mind it (Iso and Leo as a few more examples) aren't around much anymore. That's not to say it's a bad power because its not and to be honest, a lot of my builds would be a lot better if I were to go AoPR, but I and a large majority of my team do not like the maintenance involved with Enrage.
No. Simply no. 1st paragraph is total waste of space. 2nd paragraph: STR CON INT, thats enough for a pest build, you get all you need, high damage, energy efficiency and HP. Crits come from ego surge when u need them, but you don't need them actually, can kill anything without crits anyway. Or use imbued defile for a spike to one shot the aura guy.
Going back on topic (sorry peeps)
There are items that grant bonuses to HP - I thought this was the job of CON. Shrugs does this actually make sense and is it worth Dev time to generate these?
No. Simply no. 1st paragraph is total waste of space. 2nd paragraph: STR CON INT, thats enough for a pest build, you get all you need, high damage, energy efficiency and HP. Crits come from ego surge when u need them, but you don't need them actually, can kill anything without crits anyway. Or use imbued defile for a spike to one shot the aura guy.
So then your Crit Enrage Pesti Build isn't really a Crit Enrage Pesti Build? You are aware, that you can use ego surge on a AoPR build as well on top of having a Crit based Enrage Build (though I prefer Ice Sheath in that scenario)? Not too mention that you are only able to get the crit bonus from ego surge once every 1 minute and x seconds (depending on your int) and it only lasts 15 Seconds.
You keep switching back and forth on what you're talking about because PVE is a lot Different from PVP and I think the fact that you're over looking that crits and crit severity tacked on top of enrage directly correlates to higher DPS in general speaks for itself.
I will grant you that AoPR does not grant great defensive capabilities, but that's also relatively situation especially in the Case of a Pre Based AoPM but thats an entirely different build, isn't it?
So then your Crit Enrage Pesti Build isn't really a Crit Enrage Pesti Build? You are aware, that you can use ego surge on a AoPR build as well on top of having a Crit based Enrage Build (though I prefer Ice Sheath in that scenario)? Not too mention that you are only able to get the crit bonus from ego surge once every 1 minute and x seconds (depending on your int) and it only lasts 15 Seconds.
You keep switching back and forth on what you're talking about because PVE is a lot Different from PVP and I think the fact that you're over looking that crits and crit severity tacked on top of enrage directly correlates to higher DPS in general speaks for itself.
I will grant you that AoPR does not grant great defensive abilities, but that's also relatively situation especially in the Case of a Pre Based AoPM but thats an entirely different build, isn't it?
I did not say it's a crit based build i said it has the option to crit for aditional burst of damage if one needs it to, but it doesn't as it already kills everything in sight at the speed you need to cross the room from one end to the other.
It's not that different, they are both about doing damage and being able to take it. And we were talking of 3 scenarios 1) pvp 2) pve 3) boss fights. We discussed 2 aspects: solo and team. And Vixys claim that 5 AoPM are better than a Mixed team. And all that is tied with the new gear with my question about it having the gap between green and purple as high in the new gear as it is in the old one. If that gap is as high then we could get 2x the amount of stats we are getting now, so the signifficance of AoPM drops. because having combined 1000 relevant stats vs combined relevant 1300 doesn't make such a difference as the bonus for using offensive form provides bigger dmg increase than that of the highr str stat fueled enraged and some crits. To put it simply xxx% buff * 1.25 is the same as higher xxx% buff + xx% chance crits for x% severity. All the switching back and forth i did was only between the live situation, current situation in pts and projected situation in pts if the gear is going to be like i think it is going to be, maybe you haven't read it all or maybe you haven't grasped all you read, in that case i can help no further.
I did not say it's a crit based build i said it has the option to crit for aditional burst of damage if one needs it to, but it doesn't as it already kills everything in sight at the speed you need to cross the room from one end to the other.
It's not that different, they are both about doing damage and being able to take it. And we were talking of 3 scenarios 1) pvp 2) pve 3) boss fights. We discussed 2 aspects: solo and team. And Vixys claim that 5 AoPM are better than a Mixed team. And all that is tied with the new gear with my question about it having the gap between green and purple as high in the new gear as it is in the old one. If that gap is as high then we could get 2x the amount of stats we are getting now, so the signifficance of AoPM drops. because having combined 1000 stats vs combined 1300 doesn't make such a difference as the bonus for using offensive form provides bigger dmg increase than that of the highr str stat fueled enraged and some crits. To put it simply xxx% buff * 1.25 is the same as higher xxx% buff + xx% chance crits for x% severity. All the switching back and forth i did was only between the live situation, current situation in pts and projected situation in pts if the gear is going to be like i think it is going to be, maybe you haven't read it all or maybe you haven't grasped all you read, in that case i can help no further.
There are items that grant bonuses to HP - I thought this was the job of CON. Shrugs does this actually make sense and is it worth Dev time to generate these?
I think the purpose is these items are to have an alternative way to gain health without having to invest in CON.
The same way you have items associate with power discount, critical strike, and more.
So why not health or maximum energy, for me that make sense.
Some people have a very personal way to stop debating about something that has nothing to do here.
I think the purpose is these items are to have an alternative way to gain health without having to invest in CON.
The same way you have items associate with power discount, critical strike, and more.
So why not health or maximum energy, for me that make sense.
Makes sense to me also. having more than one way to get more health is a good thing, it can potentially lead to a bit more build diversity.
Stepping into the wayback machine a bit, but are the current 'new gear' numbers the example of the new standard, or are these artificially inflated and/or subject to change at some point?
If that question was answered somewhere and I missed it, my bad.
I think the current green-gear numbers at present are a bit absurd, honestly, and that's one of my primary concerns. Having something that competes with one of my SL-Elite primaries and gives other stuff on top of that, while still being a green, makes me seriously worried what a Blue or Purple is gonna look like..
Also, are we losing item graphic icons, or are these just placeholders for the moment (I totally get them being just placeholders if they are)? So hard to tell what is what at the moment, and what goes in which slot. :U
Stepping into the wayback machine a bit, but are the current 'new gear' numbers the example of the new standard, or are these artificially inflated and/or subject to change at some point?
If that question was answered somewhere and I missed it, my bad.
I think the current green-gear numbers at present are a bit absurd, honestly, and that's one of my primary concerns. Having something that competes with one of my SL-Elite primaries and gives other stuff on top of that, while still being a green, makes me seriously worried what a Blue or Purple is gonna look like..
Also, are we losing item graphic icons, or are these just placeholders for the moment (I totally get them being just placeholders if they are)? So hard to tell what is what at the moment, and what goes in which slot. :U
Numbers are being inflated, although exact amounts are subject to change. This is because we have to make the new gear valuable to people without breaking old gear. The most efficient way to do this as adjust the gear scales (like we did with the new items) and then adjust critters to deal with the new power creep, but all of this is in flux. And to your second question, yes those are all placeholder icons .
ALSO! Dont derail this thread guys. If you want to discuss the state of Passives or AoPM then please open a thread on it but lets keep this to actual Item discussion.
Numbers are being inflated, although exact amounts are subject to change. This is because we have to make the new gear valuable to people without breaking old gear.
You may want to consider the scale of inflation you want; while you do want end-game items to be worth seeking out for people who have a current set of elite-scaled blues, that means a new-style purple is better than an old-style elite blue, not a new-style green is better than an old-style elite blue.
Numbers are being inflated, although exact amounts are subject to change. This is because we have to make the new gear valuable to people without breaking old gear. The most efficient way to do this as adjust the gear scales (like we did with the new items) and then adjust critters to deal with the new power creep, but all of this is in flux. And to your second question, yes those are all placeholder icons .
ALSO! Dont derail this thread guys. If you want to discuss the state of Passives or AoPM then please open a thread on it but lets keep this to actual Item discussion.
Phew, on both counts.
Though this does make all the math I just went and grabbed somewhat devalued. ;_; Thanks a lot, GMC!
Took forever to get the stats I wanted/needed.. so I'm posting them anyway!
Test-Chthonic with old gear:
DEX 218, EGO 44, CON 103, REC 149, END 207; CritChance 28.3, 139/325 energy, 6350 Health
Gigabolt - 56-181 Energy Cost, 623-2656 Damage
Test-Chthonic with new gear:
DEX 221, EGO 77, CON 43, REC 150, END 210; CritChance 28.6, Offense 85.6, CostDiscount 108, 140/328 energy, 5445 Health
Gigabolt - 44-144 Energy Cost, 694-2961 Damage
I intentionally gave up a bit of CON because before, the only reason I had it was because of stat limitations. Even then, I only lost ~900 health (Invulnerability didn't change effectiveness at all, but a lot of my Healing got a lot better) and gained a lot of that back in energy efficiency (not exactly a problem) and damage output (also wasn't a problem). And this was with me trying to 'game' my stats to something close to what they were before - realistically, I would have ignored CON entirely for more Ego/CostDiscount gear in my Utility slots or higher DEX or REC. I also had a bear of a time finding a +29 CON Utility slot before I got interrupted by my cat (pushy broad).
I'm glad that at least mobs are going to get some adjustment to be a bit closer to where the new power curve is going to sit, though. Is it going to be about where it is now, or a bit lower (relatively - ie: mobs are tougher)?
EDIT: Also gained a bunch of crit-severity I didn't have before thanks to the baseline stat changes. I'll have to grab the number from Live though to be sure of how much.
EDIT again: Apparently 3% is a lot. I didn't realize it was that high on Live... Derp. :B
You may want to consider the scale of inflation you want; while you do want end-game items to be worth seeking out for people who have a current set of elite-scaled blues, that means a new-style purple is better than an old-style elite blue, not a new-style green is better than an old-style elite blue.
Actually this is pretty close (remember that critters will be getting some changes to reflect this). The idea is to generally phase out old gear slowly by offering stuff that is *clearly* better to most people. This way you dont have to be a number cruncher to realize this new easily attainable gear is better for you, not to mention more free with how stats are distributed
The idea is to generally phase out old gear slowly by offering stuff that is *clearly* better to most people. This way you dont have to be a number cruncher to realize this new easily attainable gear is better for you, not to mention more free with how stats are distributed
Making 'new' blue better than the best old gear will phase it out slowly. Making 'new' purple better will phase it out even more slowly. Making 'new' green better will phase it out quickly, and is more likely to annoy players, though with the new superstats a lot of people will have to re-gear anyway.
My biggest concern (I think) with the new gear changes are that I do NOT want to feel like I need to re-gear to reach the the same level of power, relative to existing mobs, that I already have.
That is, if on Monday i log in and have a particular level of power against level 40 creatures on Monster Island... I expect to have the same level of power against those same creates on Tuesday without making modifications to my gear. If existing creatures are "buffed" to deal with the addition of new gear, that is really a nerf to existing characters - having to re-gear to reach the same level of power I already had is... not rewarding.
I do want to have things to look forward to at 40 - which is mainly getting better gear, but I do not want to have the feeling that that better gear will just RETURN me to the same level of power I had before the change.
I really hope there are new and better (or, let's say, improved) ways to gear up. I've already spent probably hundreds of hours running and-rerunning SL as well as doing the daily unity quests. Having to just go back and do that all again to regear isn't appealing.
The closest experience I've had (after playing a LOT of MMO's) would be the release of an expansion where you fully expect to replace your "best in slot" gear with "greens" in the lowbie zones of the new expansion. That's a palatable experience since you're experiencing new content and fighting new enemies (and, generally, also increasing your level).
I guess the bottom line for me: without a level cap increase and/or new content related to the acquisition of new gear, the idea of replacing "hard won" blues and purples with new greens is just not very appealing.
current bonuses seem small and inconsequential, i have to see the top end gear and the way it scales based on quality but thus far bonus health in the 150 range is a joke and not a big deal or worth losing stats for. HP+ =waste of time. most of the bonus's seen thus far seem subpar and meaningless. Did some testing and the old gear is still superior on test, the only time the new gear is valid is on crit builds that no longer need ego and heal builds that dont run in support.
current bonuses seem small and inconsequential, i have to see the top end gear and the way it scales based on quality but thus far bonus health in the 150 range is a joke and not a big deal or worth losing stats for. HP+ =waste of time. most of the bonus's seen thus far seem subpar and meaningless. Did some testing and the old gear is still superior on test, the only time the new gear is valid is on crit builds that no longer need ego and heal builds that dont run in support.
Can you back it up with numbers please? Keep in mind that the gear on test is the *lowest quality* and is really intended for levels 1~15. Higher quality gear will not require you to sacrifice a main stat to get bonus health (or any substat for that manner)
EDIT: Gear scales to the level it is marked as, so level 15's will not have the stats you are seeing if you open these at 40. Just wanted to clarify.
it was 2 days ago but what i noticed and was testing was the secondary effects and the changes that the new gear provided were not worth the investment in the gear as the sl blues and current pvp gear was providing a higher bonus than what was being granted by the new gear. it is only greens so true testing can only be done when we have the proper gear and proper scaling but at the current time the bonuses are laughable.
on live on one of my toons i have a 87% bonus healing and on test it is 33% then with the new heal gear its still only boosting it by another 11-12% with the current greens and that is still not making up for my healing rate loss. i know that support more than makes up for it but im a tank and losing over half of my healing bonus is really sucky. being unable to gain that back currently has me worried. I still cant pass final judgement untill we get the proper gear but right now there has been a sever decrease in my healing capabilities, and self sufficiency.
all of the bonusses are to low to be meaningful right now when compared to the changes made to certain stats and health is meaningless when the bonus is that low, if the blue version gave us say another 1-2k hp somewhere in the middle there would be good but as is a bonus 450is just a drop in the bucket when you are getting hit for 1200-4k and more from falling damage
I think the issue being raised is that secondary effects on equipment (stuff that isn't stats) are mostly not very valuable -- they're priced at something like 2/3 of the cost of the stat, and only provide one of the (several) bonuses for the stat. If that's truly the only thing you want from the stat, that may be fine (a +400 hp item instead of a +20 con item might be okay), but people tend not to bother with items that don't give bonuses that key directly into things they have a stat focus on, and it's most certainly not worth 2/3 of a point of a stat where you've got superstat bonuses, a passive, and an energy unlock all keying off of that stat.
Its hard to judge how effect the gear is when passives are still experiencing bloated and out of control bonuses.
simple example
PTS - Personal Force Field - 12,000 hp on top of 7,000 regular hp.
Live - Personal Force Field - 6,000 hp on top of 5,500 regular hp
Stat wise it seems to be similar numbers maxing 2 stats but on pts the amount of bonuses are crazy high. I only bring this up in this Item thread because its hard to get an accurate picture of extra crit sev, bonus healing, cost reductions because of the skewed passives.
I'd rather not see a 5% chance to deal Slashing Burst but rather something that changes your damage type entirely. Like firing Dimensional arrows or Particle 'bullets'.
... also, entirely new gear slot for this please? :<
I noticed that Cost Discount on these new upgrades (35 Cost Discount) gave me a total reduction of 1 energy point on any given power.
And I also confirm about the bloated passive puffs when on Live Invul is offering only 69% while on thr PTS 100%. :eek:
I'm getting, with 108 Cost Discount, closer to a 21% total discount on Gigabolt (suggesting 5CD = 1%) on average. With low-cost powers, or high Intellect, this will produce far less noticeable returns overall (especially if there's a soft or hard cap on cost reduction). If a power costs, say... 30 energy, a 35CD (7%) would result in a net change of ~2 energy per cast.
So that's not too surprising. As to the other point, I think some passives are still double-dipping with stats and that's leading to the inflation there. :U
I really like the big change to gear rewards that I have seen: the fact that Green gear doesn't just give slightly better stats - it adds to two stats instead of one.
This gear feels like a real improvement when I get it. And that is good. Because in regular CO, rewards feel incrementally better and I never really feel like I get "good" gear. It's just a little bit better than the stuff I already have.
Comments
I'm inclined to agree with Vixy on this one and I wouldn't call the tako event a relevant test considering the out come relies entirely on the people attending and their builds.
Talking of teams - a mixed team will perform better than AoPM only. As for crits+enraged+toggle - you can do that with pest too, so i don't see how this makes a point.
To those whom might find this conversation of topic i can say it's on topic because the new gear correlation with passives is discussed.
So instead of a quality fix that leaves all parties at a nominal benefit, you would rather use the one that nerds dodge avoidance build to "get at" the stacking builds....
Ok so stacking builds become the clear obvious choice as a result.
The quantum substrate of this game's universe is soo broken....
You have a tough road to travel.
Do you actually test anything, or is all your basis "what I think?"
I mean have you actually tested what you are saying up there....
Vixy really knows her game.
Well it's a very good test, since every Tako fight something like ~75 people are pitting themselves in a dps race against others and Quarry Dclaw comes on top, thats a classic example of a scientific study - you take an X number of subjects, give them the same challenge and through testing multiple times and indicating the same end result you can draw conclusions based on facts not assumptions and the fact is Quarry Dclaws will always outdps AoPM.
Did you test this on the new PTS game universe?
Live performance is not really relevant to AOPM's performance on PTS.
Yes multiple times a mixed team proves a better choice than a sole AoPM one. Simple math, Offensives do more damage than AoPM so if they don't die clearing any content is easier using not solely AoPM.
Again another example of PvE is Tleleosaurus hunting, you won't see many AoPMs doing that.
Vixy might now her game, i now mine just as good.
Ye tested in PTS too, way better than on live, might say up to par with pest/quarry now.
Vixy's not talking about mixed teams vs all out AoPM ones.....though depending on the setup pretty sure all AoPM would still win.
Vixy's talking about total team DPS output with an AoPM member vs. total team DPS output with a Quarry or Pest teammate. And we're talking about optimal builds.
Arguments that discuss "most players blah" are pointless since most players do not play optimally.
It should be pretty obvious why AoPM crit + enrage + toggle wins over Pest crit + enrage + toggle.
Well it doesn't, AoE damage you can pull off with all buffs and pest is higher than AoE damage with all buffs and AoPM. Even if going for maintained dps or spikes offensives are still ahead of AoPM after all buffs by ~15%.
And additional bonus from for teammates to your stats will not influence that damage difference too much. So having ~2 AoPMs in a team will be enough.
And talking about team vs team, just 1 person with TK Wave and psychic tides adv can incapacitate bubble healers, then pests can melt them in seconds. ~10k AoPM looses 1/3rd of health after the 1st FG+sonic+1st Pest tick.
And i don't want to be misinterpreted, i'm saying at the moment in pts the passives are of equal worth to a team, so none of them should loose any effectiveness if the other one retains it.
Can you prove it please?
Make a couple of builds and show your work and results.
Ok
Though you can easily find this out for yourself, just do a standard spiker build, str (enraged) con (for imbued) sniper or anything and do it with the same gear on AoPM and the matching your damage type offensive passive. You will see the result backs my claim.
Totally disagree. Stats make a massive difference to added DPS especially if you measure it over a long enough period of time to account for Active Defense and Active Offense rotation, encounters with various types of mobs, bosses, etc....runs with different groups.
Not sure what you're talking about? This is the scenario in question....
Irrelevant and way too specific.
No you can't easily do it by yourself....if you could then, by definition, your test would be invalid.
Nothing lasts that long so that the amount of time decrease on AO's would have a noticable effect, and AO after all the buffs gives you like <5% overall dmg increase due to all diminishing returns so totally insignificant.
Any scenario featuring a team. 2 AoPMs are enough to buff and heal teammates so that their superior dps wins the day.
Relevant cause it is an example that explains how your claim that a full AoPM team wins vs a Mixed one is wrong. I gave a specific set of powers that can be used very effectively against the best thing AOPM has to offer - energy efficiency and that's the single reason to pick AoPM.
Unless you are referring to a team test you're wrong, for solo test of AoPM vs offense you can, for a team test with added bonuses from teammates ofc you can't do it alone, but i wasn't talking of that.
You're measuring DPS over the course of one kill....try measuring over the course of an entire lair run. AO rotation has a big impact.
Totally wrong. Especially in an AoPM setup designed to take full advantage of the secondary effects of AOs.
Why would they heal when they can just kill everything.
Not relevant because it's too specific. It's like saying that a full team of energy form passives sucks because Vixy can take skarns bane and shut them all down. Also the sky is blue and Vixy's hair is soft. Has nothing to do with the rest of the game or DPS output in PvE.
And the single best reason to take AoPM is energy efficiency? Are you joking? No wonder you think Pest is better.
A solo test is invalid...because you're ignoring one of the biggest benefits of aopm. So obviously the reference was not to a solo test.
A run is a sequence of single kills, therefore your statement is invalid, there is no enemies not ranked super villain than can withstand a single epidemic maintain from enraged pest and you don't need an AO for that. The damage of the power itself in pest epidemic vs aopm epidemic is ~equal but when you add the pest ticks they outweigh the additional dmg bonus from AO's and the dmg buff increase due to aopm teammates significantly. To match that damage with aopm you would need constant ego surge and that's not happening.
Well it is relevant because you gave a set of circumstances and i gave a counter to that, it was you who stated that aopm team wins vs a mixed one, that's simply not happening and i just gave one example of why mixed is better.
And what other reason is there really? Dps wise offensives are better, defense wise defensive passives are better, healing wise seraph is better. The only real reason is energy for bubble healer (that are countered with tk wave + adv) and for spikers for the same reason + higher con to fuel imbue while at the same time having percep gear equipped. That the whole reason for this debate, i'm saying that with the new gear and it's possibilities the offensive passives are worthwhile to use again and pest isn't the single best obvious choice.
Just run the DPS test across a full lair run and you'll see. Sum of series of single kills =/= lair run. There's DPS measured over 2.5 seconds and then there's DPS measured over 30 minutes....the builds that produce optimal dps output in one vs. another look very different from each other.
Of course Pest is better if your comparison uses the powers that paint it in the best light.
An optimal AoPM setup would not use Epidemic. A higher energy cost maintain that also deals higher base damage would speak better to AoPMs benefits...just like Epidemic works best with Pest.
This is a terrible choice for a comparison. What are you talking about.
Wins in a DPS race not in PvP, which is far too circumstantial for this argument.
Because it buffs your team, because it buffs separate damage layers allowing you to circumvent DR, because another AoPM buffs your ability to buff them and vice versa, because it buffs everything that scales from stats allowing you to more easily cherry pick the best powers for the job......
Energy efficiency is about the last reason to take it. Not the first.
You're not about to convince anyone with the flawed tests and comparisons in your examples.
Anyways, we're off the beaten path...Vixy's point is: if things stay as they are, the optimal and painfully obvious choice easily becomes AoPM for the vast majority of the content in this game and Vixy would prefer for that choice to be a bit less obvious....so that it's actually a choice.
However not so related that there should be an endless war in this thread if AoPM i better than anything else or not. Really time to stop that discussion here and make a new thread for it if that should go further for the next
20 pages :rolleyes:
Ending this discussion as we won't reach an agreement anyway, but the claim that AoPM is the answer to all situations is false, i gave examples and she calls them circumstantial, thus she claims they are irrelevant, well everything is circumstantial therefore she is contradicting herself in the argument, see no further purpose to discuss the matter, but would hate to see AoPM nerfed due to her statements that are not exactly reality based.
I suppose if you want to pit Rift against Swtor and exclude WoW from the test, then Swtor would be the number 1 video game in the world?
Tako is not a relevant test, because do you know the builders? How do you know the other builds aren't gimped? how do you know that the AoPM builders arent just grimoire AT's?
Further more, my team are generally the people who come in first (when were there at tako fights and I can promise you, we dont have any Quarry/DC builds there... As a matter of Fact most of them are Fire Form or WoTW and when we do go the AoPR (Aura of Primal Rage) route, theyre normally on the top of the list.
I want to know how you would go about Stating for your Enrage Pesti build and tell me how and Why it would be better than doing the same with AoPM because from where im sitting, with Pesti, youre looking at either going Enrage or Dex because if you just go Dex+Str, youre not going to have a whole lot of points to put into int or ego unless you want to spreading your stats rather thin and if you don't spread yourself too thin, you wont have enough int to keep your enrage up and then you start running into your energy problems.
Sure, you have a Toxic Resistance Debuff and a DoT on your Pesti Passive, But AoPM is going to offer you A Higher Crit Rate, Higher Strength Base for your Enrage, a Higher Crit Severity Rate (on live anyway) and Better energy management than you're going to get with Pesti and I promise you, it pays off in the long run.
With AoPM, you can essentially stat for 4 specific stats or 3 Major stats at the very least and still be relatively high in the fourth stat and still have plenty of benefits from the remaining stats... it solves just about any problem you could have.
As far as Teleiosaurus goes, some of the higher DPSers (Vixy included) were AoPR builds, the reason why you wont see a lot of them now is because we don't like enrage and the people who didnt mind it (Iso and Leo as a few more examples) aren't around much anymore. That's not to say it's a bad power because its not and to be honest, a lot of my builds would be a lot better if I were to go AoPR, but I and a large majority of my team do not like the maintenance involved with Enrage.
No. Simply no. 1st paragraph is total waste of space. 2nd paragraph: STR CON INT, thats enough for a pest build, you get all you need, high damage, energy efficiency and HP. Crits come from ego surge when u need them, but you don't need them actually, can kill anything without crits anyway. Or use imbued defile for a spike to one shot the aura guy.
There are items that grant bonuses to HP - I thought this was the job of CON. Shrugs does this actually make sense and is it worth Dev time to generate these?
So then your Crit Enrage Pesti Build isn't really a Crit Enrage Pesti Build? You are aware, that you can use ego surge on a AoPR build as well on top of having a Crit based Enrage Build (though I prefer Ice Sheath in that scenario)? Not too mention that you are only able to get the crit bonus from ego surge once every 1 minute and x seconds (depending on your int) and it only lasts 15 Seconds.
You keep switching back and forth on what you're talking about because PVE is a lot Different from PVP and I think the fact that you're over looking that crits and crit severity tacked on top of enrage directly correlates to higher DPS in general speaks for itself.
I will grant you that AoPR does not grant great defensive capabilities, but that's also relatively situation especially in the Case of a Pre Based AoPM but thats an entirely different build, isn't it?
I did not say it's a crit based build i said it has the option to crit for aditional burst of damage if one needs it to, but it doesn't as it already kills everything in sight at the speed you need to cross the room from one end to the other.
It's not that different, they are both about doing damage and being able to take it. And we were talking of 3 scenarios 1) pvp 2) pve 3) boss fights. We discussed 2 aspects: solo and team. And Vixys claim that 5 AoPM are better than a Mixed team. And all that is tied with the new gear with my question about it having the gap between green and purple as high in the new gear as it is in the old one. If that gap is as high then we could get 2x the amount of stats we are getting now, so the signifficance of AoPM drops. because having combined 1000 relevant stats vs combined relevant 1300 doesn't make such a difference as the bonus for using offensive form provides bigger dmg increase than that of the highr str stat fueled enraged and some crits. To put it simply xxx% buff * 1.25 is the same as higher xxx% buff + xx% chance crits for x% severity. All the switching back and forth i did was only between the live situation, current situation in pts and projected situation in pts if the gear is going to be like i think it is going to be, maybe you haven't read it all or maybe you haven't grasped all you read, in that case i can help no further.
Edit: *Goes back a few pages*
Nevermind, found it.
I think the purpose is these items are to have an alternative way to gain health without having to invest in CON.
The same way you have items associate with power discount, critical strike, and more.
So why not health or maximum energy, for me that make sense.
Makes sense to me also. having more than one way to get more health is a good thing, it can potentially lead to a bit more build diversity.
If that question was answered somewhere and I missed it, my bad.
I think the current green-gear numbers at present are a bit absurd, honestly, and that's one of my primary concerns. Having something that competes with one of my SL-Elite primaries and gives other stuff on top of that, while still being a green, makes me seriously worried what a Blue or Purple is gonna look like..
Also, are we losing item graphic icons, or are these just placeholders for the moment (I totally get them being just placeholders if they are)? So hard to tell what is what at the moment, and what goes in which slot. :U
Numbers are being inflated, although exact amounts are subject to change. This is because we have to make the new gear valuable to people without breaking old gear. The most efficient way to do this as adjust the gear scales (like we did with the new items) and then adjust critters to deal with the new power creep, but all of this is in flux. And to your second question, yes those are all placeholder icons
ALSO! Dont derail this thread guys. If you want to discuss the state of Passives or AoPM then please open a thread on it but lets keep this to actual Item discussion.
Phew, on both counts.
Though this does make all the math I just went and grabbed somewhat devalued. ;_; Thanks a lot, GMC!
Took forever to get the stats I wanted/needed.. so I'm posting them anyway!
Test-Chthonic with old gear:
DEX 218, EGO 44, CON 103, REC 149, END 207; CritChance 28.3, 139/325 energy, 6350 Health
Gigabolt - 56-181 Energy Cost, 623-2656 Damage
Test-Chthonic with new gear:
DEX 221, EGO 77, CON 43, REC 150, END 210; CritChance 28.6, Offense 85.6, CostDiscount 108, 140/328 energy, 5445 Health
Gigabolt - 44-144 Energy Cost, 694-2961 Damage
I intentionally gave up a bit of CON because before, the only reason I had it was because of stat limitations. Even then, I only lost ~900 health (Invulnerability didn't change effectiveness at all, but a lot of my Healing got a lot better) and gained a lot of that back in energy efficiency (not exactly a problem) and damage output (also wasn't a problem). And this was with me trying to 'game' my stats to something close to what they were before - realistically, I would have ignored CON entirely for more Ego/CostDiscount gear in my Utility slots or higher DEX or REC. I also had a bear of a time finding a +29 CON Utility slot before I got interrupted by my cat (pushy broad).
I'm glad that at least mobs are going to get some adjustment to be a bit closer to where the new power curve is going to sit, though. Is it going to be about where it is now, or a bit lower (relatively - ie: mobs are tougher)?
EDIT: Also gained a bunch of crit-severity I didn't have before thanks to the baseline stat changes. I'll have to grab the number from Live though to be sure of how much.
EDIT again: Apparently 3% is a lot. I didn't realize it was that high on Live... Derp. :B
Actually this is pretty close (remember that critters will be getting some changes to reflect this). The idea is to generally phase out old gear slowly by offering stuff that is *clearly* better to most people. This way you dont have to be a number cruncher to realize this new easily attainable gear is better for you, not to mention more free with how stats are distributed
That is, if on Monday i log in and have a particular level of power against level 40 creatures on Monster Island... I expect to have the same level of power against those same creates on Tuesday without making modifications to my gear. If existing creatures are "buffed" to deal with the addition of new gear, that is really a nerf to existing characters - having to re-gear to reach the same level of power I already had is... not rewarding.
I do want to have things to look forward to at 40 - which is mainly getting better gear, but I do not want to have the feeling that that better gear will just RETURN me to the same level of power I had before the change.
I really hope there are new and better (or, let's say, improved) ways to gear up. I've already spent probably hundreds of hours running and-rerunning SL as well as doing the daily unity quests. Having to just go back and do that all again to regear isn't appealing.
The closest experience I've had (after playing a LOT of MMO's) would be the release of an expansion where you fully expect to replace your "best in slot" gear with "greens" in the lowbie zones of the new expansion. That's a palatable experience since you're experiencing new content and fighting new enemies (and, generally, also increasing your level).
I guess the bottom line for me: without a level cap increase and/or new content related to the acquisition of new gear, the idea of replacing "hard won" blues and purples with new greens is just not very appealing.
Can you back it up with numbers please? Keep in mind that the gear on test is the *lowest quality* and is really intended for levels 1~15. Higher quality gear will not require you to sacrifice a main stat to get bonus health (or any substat for that manner)
EDIT: Gear scales to the level it is marked as, so level 15's will not have the stats you are seeing if you open these at 40. Just wanted to clarify.
on live on one of my toons i have a 87% bonus healing and on test it is 33% then with the new heal gear its still only boosting it by another 11-12% with the current greens and that is still not making up for my healing rate loss. i know that support more than makes up for it but im a tank and losing over half of my healing bonus is really sucky. being unable to gain that back currently has me worried. I still cant pass final judgement untill we get the proper gear but right now there has been a sever decrease in my healing capabilities, and self sufficiency.
simple example
PTS - Personal Force Field - 12,000 hp on top of 7,000 regular hp.
Live - Personal Force Field - 6,000 hp on top of 5,500 regular hp
Stat wise it seems to be similar numbers maxing 2 stats but on pts the amount of bonuses are crazy high. I only bring this up in this Item thread because its hard to get an accurate picture of extra crit sev, bonus healing, cost reductions because of the skewed passives.
I'd rather not see a 5% chance to deal Slashing Burst but rather something that changes your damage type entirely. Like firing Dimensional arrows or Particle 'bullets'.
... also, entirely new gear slot for this please? :<
And I also confirm about the bloated passive puffs when on Live Invul is offering only 69% while on thr PTS 100%. :eek:
I'm getting, with 108 Cost Discount, closer to a 21% total discount on Gigabolt (suggesting 5CD = 1%) on average. With low-cost powers, or high Intellect, this will produce far less noticeable returns overall (especially if there's a soft or hard cap on cost reduction). If a power costs, say... 30 energy, a 35CD (7%) would result in a net change of ~2 energy per cast.
So that's not too surprising. As to the other point, I think some passives are still double-dipping with stats and that's leading to the inflation there. :U
This gear feels like a real improvement when I get it. And that is good. Because in regular CO, rewards feel incrementally better and I never really feel like I get "good" gear. It's just a little bit better than the stuff I already have.
So, thumbs up on that change, at least.