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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    Ok... but using that definition is akin to calling all FPS games "Call of Duty clones". It's so broad that it makes calling it a "clone" meaningless.

    Given that it's only actually around 30-40 seconds, it really doesn't have much room to show us much. It does however show that the people doing the art made it look like Dominaria and even made the NPC characters look like the card art from the card game. Someone on Reddit posted a pic comparing the card art of Josu Vess with the in-game character and it's nearly identical. It does also show the quest structure which is similar to the way STO, NW and CO do it. But yeah, it's a tiny teaser of a game in alpha, there's not gonna be much to go on.

    It has meaning if you don't forget the context: that context being the trailer. You mention the First Person Shooter genre, and yes that genre has its own set of very basic elements that constitute a "generic first person shooter". If someone says a game looks like a generic first person shooter, that's equivalent to someone saying a game looks like a diablo clone. If someone watches the trailer for your new shooter and comes away with the impression that it's a "generic first person shooter", then you need to have a harsh talk with whoever made that trailer and consider replacing them - or if the trailer was accurate, consider that your game isn't doing enough to stand out. You don't want people walking away with the impression that your game is the most basic example of a genre.

    As for the trailer being short, and them not having much gameplay to show, my opinion on that is simple: Then don't have a gameplay trailer. Save that for when you actually have gameplay to show off. Remember how I said earlier in the thread that I was more excited at what I thought the game could be, and that the trailer completely dampened that down to "meh"? Showing me nothing is better than showing me something disappointing.

    Now you say the environments are the impressive thing here, but in the cinematic trailer you linked all I see is a cutscene. I don't see any game environments in that whatsoever. Sure the cutscene looks great, but am I going to be spending hundreds of hours watching a cutscene, or looking at game environments? The video that showed the environments I'll actually be looking at while playing showed me a bunch of rather boring, generic fantasy landscapes. On top of that, by showing that we'll be using the top-down perspective, it means that we won't really even be able to admire the environments all that much anyway; we'll mostly be staring at the ground right beneath our own feet.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    > @pantagruel01 said:
    > (Quote)
    > I don't recall objecting to calling it diablo-esque.

    No, I was just pointing it out for the conversation at large for those arguing it doesn’t look like Diablo. Guess that was a bit confusing, my bad.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    > @pantagruel01 said:
    > So, there's somewhat more informative videos out there.
    >
    > (not that I see any particular *wow* stuff in it, but at least it gives a bit more informed speculation).


    Skip to 6:39 😆
    I don't recall objecting to calling it diablo-esque.
    This is my point exactly. comparing it to Diablo makes sense, calling it a clone is more than a little unreasonable.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    Boring generic fantasy landscapes
    IE 99% of MtG landscape art.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    On top of that, by showing that we'll be using the top-down perspective, it means that we won't really even be able to admire the environments all that much anyway; we'll mostly be staring at the ground right beneath our own feet.
    When has Cryptic made a game with a fixed camera? Seems like an unreasonable conclusion to come to.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Not really. They’re going for Diablo style gameplay, and so the camera is at least partially fixed aimed toward the ground. The second video shows that it can be rotated, and I assume you can zoom in and out, but I doubt you’ll be able to angle up or down any.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Boring generic fantasy landscapes
    IE 99% of MtG landscape art.

    That definitely doesn't make me more excited about the game.

    Really the only thing that could excite me is the gameplay. Magic has always been interesting because of the interactions of the cards, so here's hoping they make it so that powers can interact in interesting ways.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Hopefully the co-op multiplayer aspect will include some of that. If it just turns out to be that different spells are just ways to kill dudes with different colors it’ll be a disappointment.

    I did like the big summons in that second video though.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    Hopefully the co-op multiplayer aspect will include some of that. If it just turns out to be that different spells are just ways to kill dudes with different colors it’ll be a disappointment.
    We saw attacks and summons, and a mention of cc and buffs. I haven't played MtG in probably twenty years so I don't know the current style of play at all, but a lot of the common card effects would be pretty straightforward to generate in a game, and they do at least have distinct styles between the colors.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Boring generic fantasy landscapes
    IE 99% of MtG landscape art.
    That definitely doesn't make me more excited about the game.

    Really the only thing that could excite me is the gameplay. Magic has always been interesting because of the interactions of the cards, so here's hoping they make it so that powers can interact in interesting ways.
    Well... We know some of the spells summon creatures to act as combat pets(spiders, griffins and elementals are seen in the videos) There's direct damage powers. The description of blue mage sounds like they have powers that force enemies to not attack or something. One of the vids had a part where it looked like one of the characters created a forcefield around herself. One of the green spells is called "Nourish" and that sounds like a buff or heal ability. So, yeah, we know you can use multiple colors in your spell book, and we know you can use a variety of kinds of spells and not just direct damage.

    I do wonder if using multiple colors means not being able to use big spells. If your mana bar is split between white and blue does the white part go high enough to cover the expensive to cast white spells? In the card game using multiple colors does make it somewhat harder to use big spells, but not that much since there's generic mana costs that use any color. Guess we'll find out later.
    Not really. They’re going for Diablo style gameplay, and so the camera is at least partially fixed aimed toward the ground. The second video shows that it can be rotated, and I assume you can zoom in and out, but I doubt you’ll be able to angle up or down any.
    Why? You're assuming they're intentionally copying the camera system from Diablo because.....? Also I'm pretty sure we did see multiple camera angles in the vids...
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    > Why? You're assuming they're intentionally copying the camera system from Diablo because.....? Also I'm pretty sure we did see multiple camera angles in the vids...

    Oh I’m not assuming. I’m taking what I learned from their own trailer. They are trying to copy Diablo with some gameplay changes/innovations (deck building, card draws to determine abilities) but for the most part they’ve used Diablo as a template. If you can’t see that you’re in denial. For some reason. I don’t know why, “Diablo clone” is not an insult.

    And the only different camera angles I saw was left/right orbit angles, no up/down pitch rotation. Granted I only saw the trailer once and may have missed it, so if there’s pitch control yay, but with the point and click gameplay they’re probably going for on PC, pitch would be an issue. You’re supposed to see the ground so you can click it.

    Though with this being released on consoles I assume they have a non-click-to-target system so locking he camera pitch is either pointless or just done for aesthetic.
    Post edited by biffsmackwell on
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    Though with this being released on consoles I assume they have a non-click-to-target system so locking he camera pitch is either pointless or just done for aesthetic.
    From the gameplay video, it looks like you get a targeting circle that you can move around and click when you want it to go off.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    I wonder if lore-wise the planeswalkers are supposed to have random spells popping into their heads/spell books or if the whole thing is because when they made the original game they wanted a card game so drawing random cards was a must. It does seem strange to have random spells pop up in a game like this. It makes little sense and seems like a forced gameplay concept for the sake of being like the card game in some way. But I’ve never really been one to follow the lore and just accept games for what they are. In the second video I think the guy said you get a 14-card deck. That’s hardly a deck of cards. Or did he say 40? Anyone know? And what about lands? Do they play any role in this?
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  • i would imagine it's 40, because that's the industry average for TCG decks, so it should be the same for a deck in this game​​
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    Yeah that’s what I’m thinking but the dude sounded like he said fourteen. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    And what about lands? Do they play any role in this?
    There appeared to be aspected mana bars (refresh method not clear), but I don't think we saw any lands as playable cards.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    lezard21 wrote: »
    or heck even a really weird Starcraft clone where instead of resources you draw cards​​
    MtG doesn't have much like building construction, other than lands, which would likely be capturable node structures rather than buildings.

    At which point you have Master_of_Magic_boxcover.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    Though with this being released on consoles I assume they have a non-click-to-target system so locking he camera pitch is either pointless or just done for aesthetic.
    From the gameplay video, it looks like you get a targeting circle that you can move around and click when you want it to go off.
    My impression from the videos is that it's a mildly modified version of the engine used for CO, STO, and NW. The main change seems to be using an MMO-ified version of the MtG deckbuilding system instead of a traditional RPG skill tree.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    > @markhawkman said:
    > (Quote)
    > My impression from the videos is that it's a mildly modified version of the engine used for CO, STO, and NW. The main change seems to be using an MMO-ified version of the MtG deckbuilding system instead of a traditional RPG skill tree.

    I’d bet all my jigglies its the same engine.
    Post edited by biffsmackwell on
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  • vinxbrvinxbr Posts: 158 Arc User
    Well, as someone that have absolutelly no idea of what "Magic" is all about, i was interested in know about this universe through this mmo, but... top down hack'n slash is really not my thing, already tryed some and got bored of then in less than a week. So for me, nha, my interest is maybe , because you can have a Gryphon and some kind of wherewolf, but i beet i can do something like thin on CO to
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    vinxbr wrote: »
    Well, as someone that have absolutelly no idea of what "Magic" is all about, i was interested in know about this universe through this mmo, but... top down hack'n slash is really not my thing, already tryed some and got bored of then in less than a week. So for me, nha, my interest is maybe , because you can have a Gryphon and some kind of wherewolf, but i beet i can do something like thin on CO to
    You don't PLAY as a Griffin, you SUMMON a Griffin to help you kill things. :p MtG decks use a wide variety of strategies. "Mono-Red burn" tries to incinerate/electrocute/crush with rocks all your enemies. Blue decks and white decks often have effects to prevent foes from attacking, sometimes green too. Black and white have AoE death spells. In this game all of the "kill" spells have been translated to damage values since instant death is something they decided they don't want. Which means red, white and black will have AoE murderizing spells. Green and blue apparently have options there, but that's not their specialty.

    Green's specialty in the card game is having the mana to throw drooling beasts the size of small cities at your enemies. What we see in the video suggests green will at least have the ability to summon beasts the size of small cars to attack their enemies.

    ALL colors summon various creatures in the card game. The nature of those creatures varies greatly though.

    Things we probably won't see from the cardgame:
    Mill decks; these win by depleting your opponent's spells to the point they don't have any.
    alt-win; some card like "Barren Glory" are literal "I win" buttons where simply playing and satisfying it's condition causes you to win.

    Land-D is iffy, since obliterating the landscape seems like it's not part of this. But there were quest objectives for destroying "Necromantic towers", so maybe just buildings? Hard to know really.

    The card game has game has buff/heal powers too, so this probably will?
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,518 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    I dunno, I'll try it when it comes out. I'll try anything once though. Almost!

    Kinda wish it was more TCG-ish though (is it? I can't tell from that video...) although hopefully done in a fair way. TCGs are pretty P2W. I dunno, we'll see, right?

    So yeah, I guess on a scale of 0 to whatever, I'm a solid "neutral"
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    I dunno, I'll try it when it comes out. I'll try anything once though. Almost!

    Kinda wish it was more TCG-ish though (is it? I can't tell from that video...) although hopefully done in a fair way. TCGs are pretty P2W. I dunno, we'll see, right?

    So yeah, I guess on a scale of 0 to whatever, I'm a solid "neutral"
    The tiny bit on the website about that suggested that you'll have a starter deck of whatever color you choose to start as, and the ability to grind to earn more cards.... or buy from the Z-store, depending on if you feel like spending.

    Knowing Cryptic there's gonna be character customization, but we don't have data on that yet.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    It seemed to me like you choose one of the pre-made planeswalkers because if I remember correctly hey kept referencing specific characters. I could be wrong on that though. At any rate if there’s character customization I don’t expect it to be anything beyond what they did for neverwinter. Possibly even less.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    Neverwinter has a lot of character customization. It's the starting options that are boring.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    You mean Nicol Bolas? Pretty sure he's gonna be one of the bad guys you fight in the game.

    Not sure if there will be race options, so it's impossible to say if dragons will even be playable. So far all we've seen as player characters appear to be humans.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    You mean Nicol Bolas?

    You see, lezard purposely mispelled "bolas" as "balls" to be humorous, and possibly to imply that Nicol Bolas is a turd.
  • or he just likes balls​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    Not really. They’re going for Diablo style gameplay, and so the camera is at least partially fixed aimed toward the ground. The second video shows that it can be rotated, and I assume you can zoom in and out, but I doubt you’ll be able to angle up or down any.
    "This is going to be Diablo. The camera will be fixed toward the ground."

    How do you know?

    "Because Diablo clones have their cameras pointed down."

    The reasoning there is a bit circular, isn't it?
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    > @jonsills said:
    > (Quote)
    > "This is going to be Diablo. The camera will be fixed toward the ground."
    >
    > How do you know?
    >
    > "Because Diablo clones have their cameras pointed down."
    >
    > The reasoning there is a bit circular, isn't it?

    The camera angle is just one of the several reasons I gave for it being a Diablo clone. I didn’t say it’s Diablo just cuz the camera points towards the floor. I don’t call every isometric game Diablo.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    I'm not sure I've ever seen people fight this hard against the claim that such an obvious diablo clone isn't a diablo clone...

    Do you people hate diablo or something?
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    Yeah I don’t get it either. If anything it makes me more likely to play it. If it just looked like neverwinter I would already have passed it up.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    It's certainly possible that it has other camera options than what we've seen, and just everyone is playing with an isometric view because when you're dealing with ground targeted effects that's the easiest way to play
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Totally possible, but just from what I’ve seen though, they seemed to have used Diablo as a template.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    Totally possible, but just from what I’ve seen though, they seemed to have used Diablo as a template.
    If the used the cryptic engine as a backbone, it would cost pretty much nothing to allow different camera types.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I'm not sure I've ever seen people fight this hard against the claim that such an obvious diablo clone isn't a diablo clone...

    Do you people hate diablo or something?
    Actually I spent hundreds of hours playing Diablo games. I even used to be a modder for D2X on the Phrozenkeep. This just doesn't look like Diablo to me.
    > @jonsills said:
    > (Quote)
    > "This is going to be Diablo. The camera will be fixed toward the ground."
    >
    > How do you know?
    >
    > "Because Diablo clones have their cameras pointed down."
    >
    > The reasoning there is a bit circular, isn't it?

    The camera angle is just one of the several reasons I gave for it being a Diablo clone. I didn’t say it’s Diablo just cuz the camera points towards the floor. I don’t call every isometric game Diablo.
    It's NOT an isometric game though. D2 was isometric. It had simulated 3d that only worked because the camera couldn't move. It created the illusion of 3d graphics by carefully positioning things to give a sense of perspective. This illusion did not work if the camera could move, in fact the entire rendering engine didn't allow for it. Every tree, every blade of grass, every building, all of it was flat props that only looked real-ish from a single PoV.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    > @pantagruel01 said:
    > (Quote)
    > If the used the cryptic engine as a backbone, it would cost pretty much nothing to allow different camera types.

    Yup that’s very possible. The only thing preventing them from doing that is the Diablo aesthetic and “click the ground to target” mechanics.

    Again all my assumptions come from the trailer so I know it could all be wrong but it’s not an unrealistic assumption that they might limit the camera.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    > It's NOT an isometric game though. D2 was isometric. It had simulated 3d that only worked because the camera couldn't move. It created the illusion of 3d graphics by carefully positioning things to give a sense of perspective. This illusion did not work if the camera could move, in fact the entire rendering engine didn't allow for it. Every tree, every blade of grass, every building, all of it was flat props that only looked real-ish from a single PoV.

    Kinda splittin hairs here but okay. Replace isometric with “fixed angle 3/4 orbiting top-down perspective but also with a dolly capability”.

    Rolls right off the tongue, doesn’t it?
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    > @pantagruel01 said:
    > (Quote)
    > If the used the cryptic engine as a backbone, it would cost pretty much nothing to allow different camera types.

    Yup that’s very possible. The only thing preventing them from doing that is the Diablo aesthetic and “click the ground to target” mechanics.

    Again all my assumptions come from the trailer so I know it could all be wrong but it’s not an unrealistic assumption that they might limit the camera.
    Ok, if you have that little faith in your assumptions, why do you defend them? You said it yourself, there is no reason to believe Cryptic made a fully new game engine. What reason is there to change the game camera system?

    And no, "click to target the ground" doesn't work as an explanation. I've seen no reason to believe that the majority of spells actually target the ground even. It looks more like Neverwinter's pseudo FPS system where you aim with the cursor. It's mostly just pointing in a general direction really.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    I’m not defending them saying I’m right, I’m telling you how the game comes off based on the trailer. It just plain looks like a Diablo clone with deck building and card draws for abilities. The gameplay, hack-and-slash nature of it, the fixed camera angle, it all looks like they’re going for a Diablo aesthetic. If anything, you’re the one defending the game saying that it’s nothing like Diablo when, judging by lots of other first impressions, it clearly is. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,408 Arc User
    Counterpoint to the 'diablo-like' argument thing: since when has a hack-and-slash game similar to Diablo not been overhead perspective? The genre's kind of balanced around that perspective, otherwise you'd be playing something like an action third-person shooter, or Skyrim, or basically another Cryptic game but with more restrictive multiplayer. Really, compare the labyrinthine layout of a Diablo dungeon to that of just looking at the minimap of a Skyrim dungeon; those third/first-person maps are much more simplistic because you don't have the constant top-down context or north-facing camera in those cases.

    Not to say that the game wouldn't have alternate camera settings for something like socialization, but good luck being able to play it when you can't see the enemies at all angles around you, or need to aim your spell somewhere on the ground when you're looking upwards - and in fact, then there's also the massively altered expectations of what the mouse and keyboard would do for each of those genres as well. in any case, It seems extremely unlikely to be included as anything other than a novelty.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    bluhman wrote: »
    Counterpoint to the 'diablo-like' argument thing: since when has a hack-and-slash game similar to Diablo not been overhead perspective? The genre's kind of balanced around that perspective, otherwise you'd be playing something like an action third-person shooter, or Skyrim, or basically another Cryptic game but with more restrictive multiplayer. Really, compare the labyrinthine layout of a Diablo dungeon to that of just looking at the minimap of a Skyrim dungeon; those third/first-person maps are much more simplistic because you don't have the constant top-down context or north-facing camera in those cases.

    Not to say that the game wouldn't have alternate camera settings for something like socialization, but good luck being able to play it when you can't see the enemies at all angles around you, or need to aim your spell somewhere on the ground when you're looking upwards - and in fact, then there's also the massively altered expectations of what the mouse and keyboard would do for each of those genres as well. in any case, It seems extremely unlikely to be included as anything other than a novelty.
    "Camera modes"? The gameplay demo video is using the same camera angle that is the default camera angle in CO. Also we've seen that the terrain in the game isn't flat. So you actually have a reason to be able to look up. Diablo games DON'T do that at all ever.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    From what I’ve seen of the gameplay the camera *angle* is fixed, but the rotation and zoom is not. I’ve only seen people looking down toward the ground. I find it improbable that the people playing just never thought to look up and down.

    Also Diablo III had non-flat terrain and it didn’t need camera angle adjustment.

    Also I’m not sure Champs has a “default” camera angle since it has free angle zoom and rotation. How do you even get to “default” in it?
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,039 Arc User
    From what I’ve seen of the gameplay the camera *angle* is fixed, but the rotation and zoom is not. I’ve only seen people looking down toward the ground. I find it improbable that the people playing just never thought to look up and down.
    Why? I almost never change camera angle in games even if the game allows it.
    Also I’m not sure Champs has a “default” camera angle since it has free angle zoom and rotation. How do you even get to “default” in it?
    CO doesn't have a default camera angle, but that doesn't prevent playing the game with the camera at a distance and pointed slightly down.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    Because I’ve seen videos where the people rotate the camera and zoom in and out. If you have a free camera you’re bound to give it a little bit of a tilt to see father up the horizon and maybe also tilt it a bit on accident when spinning the camera around. To think that they just happen to not touch one of the camera controls is just weird to me.

    While I even tend to play with the camera facing a downward angle, I don’t think I’ve ever had a gaming session where the camera angle didn’t change. A free camera is very hard to keep in place if you’re using mouse look for spinning the camera. Easier if you’re using a controller which I’m sure they’re using based on how uniformly the camera spins. When I’m in combat I tend to look downward more to see where my enemies are around me. When I’m just traveling my camera points toward the horizon so I can see where I’m going. Now I’m sure not everyone plays like me but I’m sure time will tell anyway how the camera works.

    Anyway, I’m not sure why the camera angle is getting so much business as it’s not the only thing that makes this game like Diablo. But still I won’t be surprised if the camera angle is fixed.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,908 Arc User
    From what I’ve seen of the gameplay the camera *angle* is fixed, but the rotation and zoom is not. I’ve only seen people looking down toward the ground. I find it improbable that the people playing just never thought to look up and down.
    Why? I almost never change camera angle in games even if the game allows it.
    Also I’m not sure Champs has a “default” camera angle since it has free angle zoom and rotation. How do you even get to “default” in it?
    CO doesn't have a default camera angle, but that doesn't prevent playing the game with the camera at a distance and pointed slightly down.
    By "default" I mean the one the game uses until you change it... also the one the console command to reset to default uses.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    But you completely change it as soon as you freelook. Unless you’re playing with both hands on the keyboard. I find it hard to believe that anyone playing with mouse and keyboard or even s controller is maintaining the same camera angle at all times.
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