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Change the healer/aura dynamic.

spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
edited March 18 in Suggestions Box
Right now if you make a healer you take an aura, slap compassion on it, and there you have the vanilla standard cookie cutter healer setup that everyone uses. Yawn your way to victory! Anytime there is a "vanilla standard cookie cutter setup that everyone uses" that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Step 1: No more healer forms that scale with Presence. Compassion now scales with Ego.
Step 2: Add more offense forms that scale with Presence and more offensy support passives.
Step 3: Make auras have the same effect on other players in both Support and Hybrid.


What have you done!? I'm scared, change is scary! ಠ_ಠ

Well now if you want a healing form and an aura, an undeniably powerful combination, you have to put points into multiple stats. The reign of the aura-blasting super-healer is over. Now we have two other ways to go: the aura-blasting dpser, and the healer-that-actually-has-some-offensive-capability. There is quite a lot of highly relevant group content in this game, so someone who does decent dps and provides a strong aura will be an asset, and since they can now run in Hybrid they get to enjoy the better effects on themselves. Healers trade in their auras for the ability to contribute dps, being better at soloing, and in general having the opportunity to build something more interesting than a heal-spam-bot. Because of how strong healing forms are, a healer-with-an-aura will still be a viable build filling the "good at both, master of neither" niche, and as a result we now have three where before we had one.​​
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Comments

  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    edited March 19
    1. Forms should all scale on the greater of 2 stats. One of those stats should be in-set. While the other should allow for some interesting and viable combinations/alternatives.

    2. All Passives should scale on their Superstats. All of them. Including Auras and Defiance. Any secondary effects should also scale on their Superstats. Stance shouldn't alter either by any large degree, if at all.

    3. More options are always better. As described above and in other Spinny threads, there are good reasons to have more Passives and Forms. To add to already posted, I feel we need a couple more "Melee & Ranged get the same bonus" Passives. Even though we actually have many, most don't have the "melee" aspect to draw from (All of the energy framework passives). And, these would need some new Forms, as well.​​
    .

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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,407 Arc User
    Right now if you make a dps character you take a damage-boosting passive, slap whatever form coincides with its chosen powers on it, and there you have the vanilla standard cookie cutter dps setup that everyone uses. Yawn your way to victory! Anytime there is a "vanilla standard cookie cutter setup that everyone uses" that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

    Right now if you make a tank character you take defiance or invulnerability as your passive, slap whatever form coincides with its chosen powers on it, and there you have the vanilla standard cookie cutter tank setup that everyone uses. Yawn your way to victory! Anytime there is a "vanilla standard cookie cutter setup that everyone uses" that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

    Step 1: No more dps forms that scale with Might, Dex, Ego, or even Int. Existing Might/Dex/Ego/Int forms now scales with End or Rec.
    Step 2: Add more offense forms that scale with stats that have nothing to do with offense and more healing forms that have nothing to do with healing. Actually, let's just add a new stat called Moxie that provides no base benefits to anything, but every form scales with it.
    Step 3: Make useful passives suck so people so players get shoved into using the crappier ones.

    What have you done!? I'm scared, really bad changes are scary! ಠ_ಠ
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    edited March 21
    False equivalencies are very popular right now :^)

    Fun fact, DPS and Tanks don't all use the same form and passive the way healers do, so that's why it's different. I do agree that tanks need more defensive passives, but since neither of us is claiming healers need more auras then that's just another way in which these things are different.

    PS - you wrote "more healing forms that have nothing to do with healing" and well... that just doesn't make any sense. Also powers use energy, so energy has to do with everything :P​​
    Post edited by spinnytop on
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    Yeah, healers generally use Compassion.

    Tanks ... can use a great many different Forms. I have 8 - 14 tank or soak tank characters and they run the gamut of melee, melee+some ranged, and all ranged. I'm using the various +Threat mods from Darkness, Ice, etc on some.

    So, I kinda disagree with the dps stat Forms getting a change. Where i would like to see an associated change is in the Primary Super Stat/Mastery Specializations. Especially in regard to Tanking. Str has a great defensive buff specialization. Several of the other stats have one, but they are much weaker. I'd like to see the others brought up to Str level, so we have more options for Tanking, especially Ranged Tanks.

    This last should have it's own thread, but I mention it here to explain why I disagree with certain Form changes.​​
    .

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    The big problem with healers is that "My most valuable contribution is standing here applying my passive aura to everyone" is cruddy game play. Apply the nerf bat to auras and give support useful active buffs.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    Maybe those healing runes need to get a target bump from 5 to 20. Or at least 10. Don't want everyone crowding the one healer dropping a rune.​​
    .

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    Maybe those healing runes need to get a target bump from 5 to 20.​​
    So we can have more automated game play? Seems like a poor idea. Better to make it so you can have multiple runes but a single character can only be affected by one, then you could have some actual thought about placing them well.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    Maybe those healing runes need to get a target bump from 5 to 20.
    So we can have more automated game play? Seems like a poor idea. Better to make it so you can have multiple runes but a single character can only be affected by one, then you could have some actual thought about placing them well.

    Ah, yeah. I meant the above as a "next step" from the "nerf the auras" suggestion. Healing runes don't supply much and don't have as large a range as an aura.

    I just put a rune laying power on one of my healers. In addition to his other heals, he's a "life drain" healer, too. So, at the 3 main cosmics, I like to position him away from other healers so that "overlapping->negates other" healing effects don't happen .. as much.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,407 Arc User
    The big problem with healers is that "My most valuable contribution is standing here applying my passive aura to everyone" is cruddy game play. Apply the nerf bat to auras and give support useful active buffs.
    I won't disagree, and while sure, auras could be toned down a bit, the larger problem is pretty much anything that encourages the player to stack one stat really high. Spinny may have a hate-on for auras, but I'd argue that forms are a far worse offender in this department.

    If all the sorcery auras were changed so that the aura portion was a very minor effect, scaling with all superstats instead of presence, and they gained a healing bonus similar to that of seraphim, it'd be a more reasonable approach to "getting healers away from auras" (if that's really a problem...) by letting them choose "a bit of extra support" (aura of ____) or "a bit of extra offense" (seraphim/etc).

    I guess one could even go so far as to give them the Night Warrior effect--taking an aura passive also grants a bonus active ability of some kind. Activating it/maintaining it would provide the aura, either for a short period of time with a cooldown, or "while maintained," so they'd have to choose between "heal this guy" or "aura the team."
    spinnytop wrote: »
    PS - you wrote "more healing forms that have nothing to do with healing" and well... that just doesn't make any sense. Also powers use energy, so energy has to do with everything :P​​
    "more healing forms with stats that have nothing to do with healing," but I think you know what I meant. It's utterly moronic to say things that amount to, "let's make healers stack stats that are useless to healing by not only adding a bunch of junk stat forms, but let's also take away the option to use a form that actually scales with the game's only proper healing stat." This approach isn't a realistic solution to this perceived problem with auras you seem to have.

    Try lobbying for the dps forms to only scale with nonsense stats and see how well that goes over with people. :3
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    edited March 22
    aesica wrote: »
    I won't disagree, and while sure, auras could be toned down a bit, the larger problem is pretty much anything that encourages the player to stack one stat really high. Spinny may have a hate-on for auras, but I'd argue that forms are a far worse offender in this department.

    So wait, you agree that only stacking one stat is the problem, but you also hate the idea of healers having a reason to stack anything other than presence? My idea even gives a reason for healers to stack both Presence and another stat and you hated that. So.. what does aesica want? You realize that giving healers a reason to stack multiple stats means they won't just be stacking Presence, right? No matter how much you hate the idea of "healers stacking a stat that has nothing to do with healing", if we're going to break the "stack one stat only" meta healers are going to have to do that.

    As for nerfing auras, geez here we are with you demanding nerfs and me suggesting changes that don't require nerfs. My suggestions diminish the role of auras when it comes to healers and places them on dpsers who are more active by default and don't have to worry about the "I'm only here for auras" issue, all without having to nerf them away. My my how times have changed.​​
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 598 Arc User
    Definitely no more forms that scale w/rec, or pre, these forms are garbage for DPS, and do pretty much nothing for them.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,407 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So wait, you agree that only stacking one stat is the problem, but you also hate the idea of healers having a reason to stack anything other than presence? My idea even gives a reason for healers to stack both Presence and another stat and you hated that. So.. what does aesica want? You realize that giving healers a reason to stack multiple stats means they won't just be stacking Presence, right? No matter how much you hate the idea of "healers stacking a stat that has nothing to do with healing", if we're going to break the "stack one stat only" meta healers are going to have to do that.
    I already stated what I want, and what I think would probably work well. If auras scaled with all superstats instead of just presence, that right there would break the presence-to-the-moon dynamic because nobody needs the amount of healing healers can currently put out. I'd be free to stack presence as high as I felt comfortable with, then something else (con for more hp, ego or str for more damage, end or rec for more energy, or whatever I chose as my superstats. Auras scaling with presence exclusively is the main thing that locks healers into stupid-high levels of presence.

    As for nerfing auras, geez here we are with you demanding nerfs and me suggesting changes that don't require nerfs. My suggestions diminish the role of auras when it comes to healers and places them on dpsers who are more active by default and don't have to worry about the "I'm only here for auras" issue, all without having to nerf them away. My my how times have changed.​​[/quote]
    You called for Compassion to no longer scale with presence. THAT is a nerf. Having only healing forms that scale with stats unrelated to healing is a nerf to healers. Forcing a choice between "muh auras" and "muh heals" is a nerf. Nice try though.
    nbkxs wrote: »
    Definitely no more forms that scale w/rec, or pre, these forms are garbage for DPS, and do pretty much nothing for them.
    I'm okay with additional forms that scale with odd stats, provided their trigger conditions are more generalized, as they'd provide more choices. But definitely not at the cost of existing forms. I'd rather see dual-stat forms though, so I could choose "ego or recovery" or "strength or presence" etc. Most would obviously choose the better stat, but the other is there for anyone with odd ideas. The new forms, on the other hand, are just too restrictive to be of overall value to the game.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    If you want people to not superstack one stat, probably have to put DR on forms.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    There already is DR on Forms. It takes quite a bit more, each time, to get that next +1% per stack.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    edited March 25
    warcanch wrote: »
    There already is DR on Forms. It takes quite a bit more, each time, to get that next +1% per stack.​​
    658 ego: 24% and 76 energy per stack
    548 ego: 20% and 65 energy per stack
    438 ego: 17% and 54 energy per stack
    301 ego: 12% and 40 energy per stack

    I don't see any DR there. To within rounding errors, it appears to be energy = 10 + ego/10, damage = 2 + ego/30. There's DR on Defiant!, but not on forms that I know of.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    There already is DR on Forms. It takes quite a bit more, each time, to get that next +1% per stack.
    658 ego: 24% and 76 energy per stack
    548 ego: 20% and 65 energy per stack
    438 ego: 17% and 54 energy per stack
    301 ego: 12% and 40 energy per stack

    I don't see any DR there. To within rounding errors, it appears to be energy = 10 + ego/10, damage = 2 + ego/30. There's DR on Defiant!, but not on forms that I know of.

    If each of those numbers are the point at which you get the full %, then yes, there is DR going on. However, not very much.

    In the past, the Devs seem to take some very high number, attainable by the extreme min/max players, and kinda use that as a baseline to nerf from. Meaning, the lower numbers, which is more often attainable by most, feels like they get the biggest nerf.

    In my opinion, the baseline should be r5 mods in basic blue/merc gear. Start your Diminishing Returns curve from there.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
    "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    If each of those numbers are the point at which you get the full %, then yes, there is DR going on. However, not very much.
    They aren't (they're based on convenient removal of gear on the character I was using), and give that I'm getting 3% to go from 438 to 548, and 4% to go from 548 to 658, that's not DR.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 656 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    If each of those numbers are the point at which you get the full %, then yes, there is DR going on. However, not very much.
    They aren't (they're based on convenient removal of gear on the character I was using), and give that I'm getting 3% to go from 438 to 548, and 4% to go from 548 to 658, that's not DR.

    I stand corrected.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    I already stated what I want, and what I think would probably work well. If auras scaled with all superstats instead of just presence, that right there would break the presence-to-the-moon dynamic because nobody needs the amount of healing healers can currently put out.

    What you're not understanding is that that's a meaningless change. Grats, now instead of stacking presence, they're stacking some other stat ( but let's be real, they're still stacking presence ), but has anything changed about how they actually play or build their healers? Not a single thing. They're still using the same forms, the same auras, and the same overall build. Your idea has maybe changed what word is next to the big number on their character sheet, and likely hasn't even managed that much.
    aesica wrote: »
    Auras scaling with presence exclusively is the main thing that locks healers into stupid-high levels of presence.

    No, the idea that healers, heck support toons, must always use an aura is what locks healers, and support toons, into using Presence. Any idea that continues to support this meta has no hope of producing any real change.

    aesica wrote: »
    I'd be free to stack presence as high as I felt comfortable with, then something else (con for more hp, ego or str for more damage, end or rec for more energy, or whatever I chose as my superstats.

    You don't do that now, and you wouldn't do it then. You don't need more energy now, and you wouldn't then, str and ego's damage bonus is laughable, and oh right that's what we needed more reasons for people to put points into Con.

    aesica wrote: »
    You called for Compassion to no longer scale with presence. THAT is a nerf. Having only healing forms that scale with stats unrelated to healing is a nerf to healers. Forcing a choice between "muh auras" and "muh heals" is a nerf. Nice try though.

    It's not, since those auras would then be brought to the fight by other players meaning everyone continues to enjoy their benefits. Healers don't need their own auras, they would be better served by a defensive or offensive passive. Nice try though lel
    aesica wrote: »
    But definitely not at the cost of existing forms. I'd rather see dual-stat forms though, so I could choose "ego or recovery" or "strength or presence" etc. Most would obviously choose the better stat, but the other is there for anyone with odd ideas. The new forms, on the other hand, are just too restrictive to be of overall value to the game.

    This quote really defines why you can't come up with any ideas that promote real change. All of your ideas are tainted with the fact that while you claim to want things to change, you're really hung up on them staying exactly as they are now. Doing things differently than they're done now is only for people with "odd ideas". You would push through a bunch of changes to things, only to end up at the other side of those changes still building and stacking and playing your characters the exact same way. You gotta step outside of that box.​​
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    If you want people to not superstack one stat, probably have to put DR on forms.

    I agree. Maybe buff some of those damage bonuses from stats a bit too, and then also nerf energy gains a bit to make energy stats be a choice.​​
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    Putting DR or even a hard cap on forms could be a very good thing! I think that’s a great idea.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,498 Arc User
    edited March 28
    spinnytop wrote: »
    If you want people to not superstack one stat, probably have to put DR on forms.

    I agree. Maybe buff some of those damage bonuses from stats a bit too, and then also nerf energy gains a bit to make energy stats be a choice.​​
    Having the DR apply to the energy as well as the damage would do that. Defiance has quite heavy DR and seems like the obvious thing to copy. The standard DR formula for superstats is that they define a softcap and a target bonus (true when stat = softcap), and real bonus = 2 * (target bonus) * stat / (stat + softcap). It used to be superstat bonuses were softcap ~200, target bonus 30%, but that was back when we had 2 superstats, not sure what it does today. Not sure exactly what defiance is, looks somewhat like 3% + (softcap 200, target 12%). Assuming that's the case, copying defiance gives us:
    stat      100  200  300  400  500  600  700  800
    current   5.3% 8.7% 12%  15%  19%  22%  25%  29%
    new       11%  15%  17%  19%  20%  21%  22%  22%
    
    That would actually be a substantial buff to a lot of players (the breakeven point is about 560), but it's a significant reduction to top end focused builds.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    Could have the energy gain from forms scale with a different stat than the damage buff does too >w>​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,407 Arc User
    edited March 28
    spinnytop wrote: »
    What you're not understanding is that that's a meaningless change. Grats, now instead of stacking presence, they're stacking some other stat ( but let's be real, they're still stacking presence ), but has anything changed about how they actually play or build their healers? Not a single thing. They're still using the same forms, the same auras, and the same overall build. Your idea has maybe changed what word is next to the big number on their character sheet, and likely hasn't even managed that much.
    What you're not understanding is that the problem you're going on about is basically this: "Auras are too good, healy support passives are too bad" which is actually a fair assessment. The logical choice is to just rebalance the overpowered things vs the underpowered things until everything is equally desirable for different reasons. The illogical choice (your choice) is pretty much just "okay start sledgehammering the square pegs into the round holes--just hit 'em until they fit. No more putting the square peg into the square hole again. Ever."

    I imagine Spinnytop D&D would be something like this:

    DM: "The heavy stone door has started to close, and only Fred the Orc Barbarian is close enough to reach it in time."

    Fred: "Aah no problem, my strength is absolutely massive so I want to try holding it open until my party can get here."

    DM: "Okay, make a charisma check."

    Fred: "Wait...what?"

    DM: "Charisma check. Go."

    Fred: "I roll a 18, but really? I'm trying to use my massive orcish bulk and huge bulging barbarian muscles here. What does that have to do with my charisma?! I mean, it's only 5..."

    DM: "Yeah sorry, you failed the check. The door is too heavy and you get crushed beneath it. Fred is now dead."

    Fred: "You are the worst DM I've ever played with."
    spinnytop wrote: »
    This quote really defines why you can't come up with any ideas that promote real change. All of your ideas are tainted with the fact that while you claim to want things to change, you're really hung up on them staying exactly as they are now. Doing things differently than they're done now is only for people with "odd ideas". You would push through a bunch of changes to things, only to end up at the other side of those changes still building and stacking and playing your characters the exact same way. You gotta step outside of that box.​
    Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing.

    I agree with the fact that auras are too good while seraphim/hearth fail to measure up, I agree that forms should be DR'd, and I agree that stacking one stat is pretty lame...however! It seems we both have very different views on how to go about tackling this. Telling healers to not use the game's only healing stat by giving them a bunch of garbage-stat healing forms is utterly asinine.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I agree. Maybe buff some of those damage bonuses from stats a bit too, and then also nerf energy gains a bit to make energy stats be a choice.​​
    When I talk to people, energy management isn't generally something they find fun about the game because it just isn't well done on any level. There's no reason to make it even more annoying (and gear dependent) than it already is.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    edited April 5
    aesica wrote: »
    What you're not understanding is that the problem you're going on about is basically this: "Auras are too good, healy support passives are too bad" which is actually a fair assessment.

    Nah, the support passives are fine ( except that there's not enough of them ), people just aren't being given a real choice in whether to use them or not is the actual problem.
    aesica wrote: »
    Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing.

    I agree, but this statement doesn't really gel with the changes you're suggesting. You're trying to change things just so they're changed, but without actually influencing the meta (because you want to keep using the meta exclusively).
    aesica wrote: »
    Telling healers to not use the game's only healing stat by giving them a bunch of garbage-stat healing forms is utterly asinine.

    Not really sure why it's asinine... you might think that if you believe you need to stack Presence to get enough healing strength to be a healer in this game. Either way, it's required if we're going to pull people out of the "only ever an aura" meta. Players as a group never just choose to stop using the meta, even if doing so would give them more choices, you have to make them.

    aesica wrote: »
    When I talk to people, energy management isn't generally something they find fun about the game because it just isn't well done on any level. There's no reason to make it even more annoying (and gear dependent) than it already is.

    Sure, if you ever ask a player "do you want to be limited in some fashion?" they'll always say no, hence that's the most meaningless question to ever ask a player. Games require limits to even exist, and limits are what breeds choices, but it's not really the player's task to think about that or really even acknowledge it.​​
  • opalflameopalflame Posts: 206 Arc User
    but what if my healer-that-actually-has-some-offensive-capability likes melee?
  • Forcing people to choose between auras and healing will simply result in more support characters being required than before, resulting in tougher dps checks and thereby raising the barrier to entry of Teleiosaurus and Eidolon (unless we assume that the aura users can meet the dps checks, which would represent a balance problem of its own by obviating the need for dedicated dps characters).

    The aura vs other support passives issue has several dimensions. A lot of current endgame content strongly encourages auras (AoAC at Eidolon being a major example). Meanwhile, the extra healing offered by non-aura support passives isn't generally considered necessary (especially in the face of AoRP). However, preventing healers from having their metaphorical cake and eating it too leads directly to the issue above.

    So, we can't nerf healing to force more people into Seraphim-style passives without either making dps checks harder or obviating the need for dps characters. We can't nerf auras for similar reasons. And buffing the numbers on Seraphim-style passives alone won't accomplish anything.

    An idea that does occur to me is that a potential solution might be a sort of berf to everything to force specialization without changing overall strength much. Imagine a scenario where healing strength has decreased, but Seraphim and AoPM are both stronger. The result would be that one AoPM and one Seraphim would be able to do what two AoPMs would have done previously. However, this carries the issue that it would make specific team comps more important, and in the real world would almost certainly result in some aura being lost (since there is usually a variety of auras, rather than two of any given aura). And that's before you consider AoRP (which is in effect a healing amplifier like Seraphim, because it reduces the amount of healing that needs to be performed).

    It might be simpler to just rework Seraphim-style passives to offer some limited aura like benefits. Another possibility might be to adjust endgame content such that auras aren't as necessary, at which point they could simply be nerfed.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    opalflame wrote: »
    but what if my healer-that-actually-has-some-offensive-capability likes melee?

    Healer Forms have the same bonus for both ranged and melee, so there would be no issue going ranged, melee, or even a mix of the two.​​
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,754 Arc User
    Forcing people to choose between auras and healing will simply result in more support characters being required than before, resulting in tougher dps checks and thereby raising the barrier to entry of Teleiosaurus and Eidolon (unless we assume that the aura users can meet the dps checks, which would represent a balance problem of its own by obviating the need for dedicated dps characters).

    This doesn't force people to choose between auras and healing. As I pointed out, it is still entirely feasible with these changes to create a healer who uses an aura, you would just have to decide which side you want to put more points into. The likely outcome would be people figuring out what constitutes a good amount of Presence to get a strong enough Aura and then putting the rest into their form Attribute. This would result in someone with a strong aura who still has enough healing power to perform the role of healer, given the fact that currently you don't really need to dump for a healer form to give enough healing, and healers don't have energy issues when all they're doing is healing.

    The DPS check requirements aren't actually very high, especially at Dino where hybrids with defensive passives can already meet them, so it is entirely feasible that aura-using hybrids would be able to meet them as well. This change would not require more support characters, as the healer-with-aura combination would still be viable, and the other type of aura user would be a Hybrid, not a support, and would be using a damage form meaning their dps contribution would be significantly higher than that of a support healer.
    The aura vs other support passives issue has several dimensions. A lot of current endgame content strongly encourages auras (AoAC at Eidolon being a major example). Meanwhile, the extra healing offered by non-aura support passives isn't generally considered necessary (especially in the face of AoRP). However, preventing healers from having their metaphorical cake and eating it too leads directly to the issue above.

    This idea would not threaten the presence of auras in endgame, they would still be present and from a greater diversity of builds. The extra healing provided by non-aura support passives is not the main draw of those passives, the damage bonus is. As has already been established, healer forms give much more healing than is needed.
    So, we can't nerf healing to force more people into Seraphim-style passives without either making dps checks harder or obviating the need for dps characters. We can't nerf auras for similar reasons. And buffing the numbers on Seraphim-style passives alone won't accomplish anything.

    A nerf to healing was not suggested.
    An idea that does occur to me is that a potential solution might be a sort of berf to everything to force specialization without changing overall strength much. Imagine a scenario where healing strength has decreased, but Seraphim and AoPM are both stronger. The result would be that one AoPM and one Seraphim would be able to do what two AoPMs would have done previously. However, this carries the issue that it would make specific team comps more important, and in the real world would almost certainly result in some aura being lost (since there is usually a variety of auras, rather than two of any given aura). And that's before you consider AoRP (which is in effect a healing amplifier like Seraphim, because it reduces the amount of healing that needs to be performed).

    Yes, the idea of nerfing everything does carry many issues. That's why I didn't suggest that. Seeing as you have so many issues with it, I'm not sure why you suggested it.

    It might be simpler to just rework Seraphim-style passives to offer some limited aura like benefits. Another possibility might be to adjust endgame content such that auras aren't as necessary, at which point they could simply be nerfed.

    Before seraphim-style passives can get reworked, they need to be created. We currently only have 2, remember. It's a bit early to call for a rework. Also they both currently have aura-like benefits, so assuming that continues to be the case going forward it looks like that kind of rework isn't really needed.

    Adjusting endgame content to make auras unnecessary would be a step backwards as it would simply bring us back to the time where people didn't use auras. The goal here is not to make people use less powers, but rather more.​​
  • edited April 22
    spinnytop wrote: »
    This doesn't force people to choose between auras and healing. As I pointed out, it is still entirely feasible with these changes to create a healer who uses an aura, you would just have to decide which side you want to put more points into. The likely outcome would be people figuring out what constitutes a good amount of Presence to get a strong enough Aura and then putting the rest into their form Attribute. This would result in someone with a strong aura who still has enough healing power to perform the role of healer, given the fact that currently you don't really need to dump for a healer form to give enough healing, and healers don't have energy issues when all they're doing is healing.

    I don't think I've been clear by what I mean by being forced to choose between your aura and your healing. If one has to choose which to specialize in (when before they could get the benefits of specializing in both), then this means to get the same results as before, more support characters are required, which increases the difficulty of dps checks. And if the zone limit has been reached, then requiring more support characters than before to get the same results necessarily means going without that extra tank or dps character who would have filled that slot, so it even matters on content that does not have dps checks (to say nothing of content limited to the traditional 5 character team).

    If however, there is no need to get the same results as before, because our new aura-user still has "enough healing" and "enough aura" (however we define those two things) despite the need to spread their stats around, then the change is meaningless, because people won't have a reason to consider Seraphim or Hearth (unless they care about their own dps, but those people were most likely going to take Seraphim or Hearth regardless).
    spinnytop wrote: »
    The DPS check requirements aren't actually very high, especially at Dino where hybrids with defensive passives can already meet them, so it is entirely feasible that aura-using hybrids would be able to meet them as well. This change would not require more support characters, as the healer-with-aura combination would still be viable, and the other type of aura user would be a Hybrid, not a support, and would be using a damage form meaning their dps contribution would be significantly higher than that of a support healer.

    The presence of exceptions does not change the rule. As you well know, there are vast quantities of hybrid (and even DPS role) characters who attempt Teleiosaurus and prove unable to pull their own weight. Encouraging people to take, for example, Hearth instead of AoED by definition reduces the likelihood of an AoED around, making the barrier to entry higher (given that AoED currently adds more to a group's dps than Hearth).

    One may or may not consider this an acceptable side effect. I am simply pointing out that said side effect exists.

    As for encouraging hybrids to take auras, there is no need to change healing stat dependencies to do this (which is primarily the part of your suggestion I find interesting to discuss). The third part of your suggestion would do that by itself.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    This idea would not threaten the presence of auras in endgame, they would still be present and from a greater diversity of builds. The extra healing provided by non-aura support passives is not the main draw of those passives, the damage bonus is. As has already been established, healer forms give much more healing than is needed.

    There isn't anything stopping people from making healer/dps supports right now (I am currently playing one, in fact). They are simply considered weaker than aura-users despite the damage bonus of Seraphim and Hearth. This is the fundamental problem that those passives suffer; their benefits are not enough (or, some might claim, too misplaced) to make them as attractive as an aura. Without changes to Seraphim-style passives or to the way content encourages auras, auras will always be considered preferable so long as the capabilities of aura-users are considered "enough".
    spinnytop wrote: »
    A nerf to healing was not suggested.

    If auras aren't being nerfed, and aura-users' healing isn't being nerfed, and Seraphim-style passives aren't being improved, then what exactly is being done here to encourage people to use things other than auras? If, in order to retain the same aura power as before, a character must sacrifice some of their previous healing power, then that is in effect a nerf to that character's healing capability. By the same token, if to retain the same healing power as before, the aura user must suffer a weaker aura, then said character's aura has effectively been nerfed. By imposing choice where there was previously everything, you are necessarily forcing a nerf of some sort; the player simply gets to choose whether it is their healing or their aura that is nerfed. Without a buff to Seraphim and Hearth or a change to endgame mechanics making auras less necessary, it is quite simply impossible to encourage people to take Seraphim or Hearth over an aura without a nerf of some sort to aura-users (and, to be clear, I am not necessarily opposed to the idea in principle; I am simply confused by what appears to me to be a byzantine path to get there).
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yes, the idea of nerfing everything does carry many issues. That's why I didn't suggest that. Seeing as you have so many issues with it, I'm not sure why you suggested it.

    I do not mean to imply that you were making any such claim. It simply occurred to me that it is an idea one might naturally come to, and I believe it merited inclusion in the discussion (if only to be nipped in the bud).
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Before seraphim-style passives can get reworked, they need to be created. We currently only have 2, remember. It's a bit early to call for a rework. Also they both currently have aura-like benefits, so assuming that continues to be the case going forward it looks like that kind of rework isn't really needed.

    Creating similar powers before you've figured out how the originals should fit into the game is putting the cart before the horse.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Adjusting endgame content to make auras unnecessary would be a step backwards as it would simply bring us back to the time where people didn't use auras. The goal here is not to make people use less powers, but rather more.​​

    This is ultimately what confuses me most. If the ultimate objective is to make auras and non-aura passives equally attractive, then why bother going through the complication of changing stat dependencies? Why not simply reduce the power of auras or increase the attractiveness of non-auras until the the desirability of each is equal? Why force people to re-gear their characters?

    Edit: I would like to apologize for the wall of text. I consider this a legitimately interesting discussion.
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