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Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    For someone who tries to act like a game design expert you sure don't understand basic stuff like interest curves.
    You know, that's kinda why I've been saying all along (not just in this topic) that things like TA need multiple difficulties. It's my hope that any future instanced content comes in multiple difficulties for this. Exact. Reason. :)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also saying TA is harder than cosmics... lol. TA bridges the gap between pre-endgame content and cosmics. It even has a mini version of Dino in there for people to train with. With literally a nerfed version of a cosmic in TA, I'm not sure how anyone could say TA is "the harder stuff".
    It doesn't matter how hard or easy you, being someone familiar with it, thinks or claims it is. What matters is the general perception of it seems to be "out of reach, not gonna bother." Now imagine TA with an easier version in the custom alert rotation, with its difficulty being tuned to be roughly in line with other custom alerts. People would be nudged into giving it a try when it's up as the weekly, and since custom alerts are pretty easy, they'd get familiar with it there. Then, they'd be far more inclined to try the version we have now, would they not? The perceived barrier to entry would seem a lot less intimidating, which is something I suspect is holding a lot of people back.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,093 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    Also saying TA is harder than cosmics... lol.

    Eh...that depends on who you are. The skill required to show up and shoot Kigatilik in the back is pretty low; Gravitar, Medusa, and Teleios all require more from the dps than that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User


    Eh...that depends on who you are. The skill required to show up and shoot Kigatilik in the back is pretty low; Gravitar, Medusa, and Teleios all require more from the dps than that.

    TA requires less organization, less specialization, and any "emergency situations" are going to be much more forgiving than at a cosmic. For example in TA if the tank dies, recovering isn't a big deal. At Kiga when the tank dies, mass death, full wipe likely.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    You know, that's kinda why I've been saying all along (not just in this topic) that things like TA need multiple difficulties. It's my hope that any future instanced content comes in multiple difficulties for this. Exact. Reason. :)
    ​​

    TA is already easy enough. If what you want is higher difficulty levels that make it harder than it is now, sure let's talk about that.
    aesica said:

    It doesn't matter how hard or easy you, being someone familiar with it, thinks or claims it is.

    "People who have a lot of experience with something don't know a lot about it and can't make accurate observations." Solid logic.

    The perceived barrier to entry is just that, perceived and not real. But don't worry me and many others are actually in game breaking down those false perceptions. It's amazing how many people are unimpressed with TA's huge difficulty once they've actually run it. :D
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    If that's the reason then why does your plan have nothing to do with it?
    If you can't see how it relates, then I'm not sure what else can be done to help you out. Sorry. :(
    spinnytop wrote: »
    "People who have a lot of experience with something don't know a lot about it and can't make accurate observations." Solid logic.

    The perceived barrier to entry is just that, perceived and not real. But don't worry me and many others are actually in game breaking down those false perceptions. It's amazing how many people are unimpressed with TA's huge difficulty once they've actually run it. :D
    Completely missed the point. Oh well, I tried.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    aesica said:


    If you can't see how it relates, then I'm not sure what else can be done to help you out. Sorry. :(
    ​​

    Think of a solution that actually relates. Making it so people will just always farm the place on the lowest difficulty doesn't solve the interest curve issue. Sorry. :(
    aesica said:


    Completely missed the point. Oh well, I tried.​​

    You missed the point. Not surprising since you don't actually appear to play any of the content you want to discuss.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Ok, attempt numero dos since my first reply got deleted o3o Let's try to make this reply meet the Minimum Standard for Political Correctness and Topic Contribution.

    @Foxiandfriends's OP
    While I'm all in favor of more mechanics for Cosmics to make them less monotonous and more challenging, no matter what mechanic is proposed it will not appease Hybrid players' complains, while in turn end up pissing off the rest of the community who thinks the game has become too tryhard.

    The reason why I say this is because I haven't seen a single Hybrid player complaining that Hybrids don't have anything to do in Cosmic fights, but rather, the complain is that they cannot do the current things specialized roles like Tanks or DPS can do as well as they can. The multiple complains in the Players Wanting New Content thread have players complaining that people would rather have a Tank Role character doing the tanking instead of a Hybrid in defensive Passive, or a DPS role with a DPS passive for checks in Dino than a Hybrid with a DPS passive. It is not a problem with how the fights unveil, but rather a problem with what the players themselves want out of their Hybrid character.

    Adding adds to the fight will not resolve this. Eventually the preffered method will boil down to an actual dedicated offtank pulling said add away while a group of DPS/Hybrids take it down.

    And because of that, no matter what new mechanic or aspect you introduce to a fight, the complain will remain because what this people want is to be able to tank as well as a dedicated Tank while dealing more damage than a dedicated DPS while in Hybrid role, and that is not going to happen because it's a logical failure.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Well no cause there will be significant portions of the fight with no adds to tank, and during those times the hybrid can contribute more dps than a dedicated tank would ~3~
    lezard21 said:

    And because of that, no matter what new mechanic or aspect you introduce to a fight, the complain will remain because what this people want is to be able to tank as well as a dedicated Tank while dealing more damage than a dedicated DPS while in Hybrid role, and that is not going to happen because it's a logical failure.

    while I'm sure that's what some people want, I doubt it's what all hybrids want. what I think many of them want is for their hybrid nature to be recognized as useful, rather than just a worse version of a more specialized role. that's sure what I would like.

    while a tank could fill the role, I'd like there to be situations where we would rather have a hybrid fill it.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Think of a solution that actually relates. Making it so people will just always farm the place on the lowest difficulty doesn't solve the interest curve issue.
    Multiple difficulties seems to work fine for STO. Some people do normal, especially at first. Then most people move to advanced as they get more comfortable with the content, and some of them move to elite to maximize the challenge. The harder the difficulty, the more rewards so it's obviously best to farm the most difficult one you can reasonably do. Most people in STO farm advanced due to better rewards than normal. So much for your theory of everyone just farming the lowest difficulty, I'd say. ;)

    CO would be great with just 2 different difficulties for content like TA. Really not sure why you're so set against something like that. Maybe you just don't understand something about it, or how it would work?​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    Multiple difficulties seems to work fine for STO. Some people do normal, especially at first. Then most people move to advanced as they get more comfortable with the content, and some of them move to elite to maximize the challenge. The harder the difficulty, the more rewards so it's obviously best to farm the most difficult one you can reasonably do. Most people in STO farm advanced due to better rewards than normal. So much for your theory of everyone just farming the lowest difficulty, I'd say. ;)



    CO would be great with just 2 different difficulties for content like TA. Really not sure why you're so set against something like that. Maybe you just don't understand something about it, or how it would work?​​

    Well as long as what you're advocating is higher difficulties that make the lair more difficult than it is now, I'm on board. All those people you're talking about who're scared to even step foot in the place on the current difficulty will probably complain tho.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Well as long as what you're advocating is higher difficulties that make the lair more difficult than it is now, I'm on board. All those people you're talking about who're scared to even step foot in the place on the current difficulty will probably complain tho.
    Yup. When you have multiple difficulties, not only does it offer a training wheels difficulty for people to get familiar with the content, it also lets the developers go all-out with tough stuff for the hardest setting. The multiple difficulties also comes with another bonus--people who aren't just aren't cut out for anything else will likely stay there, thus reducing the number of leechers and/or players who might muck up the run for everyone else.

    Assuming the rewards for the easy setting aren't completely garbage, that is. Nobody wants to run content that isn't at least somewhat worth their time.​​
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,779 Arc User
    TA is actually a great place for hybrids. Some of the early runs I was on would have two hybrids, who could switch between healing and DPS, or healing and off-tanking.

    Sooooo--the next lair (assuming we get another lair pass) could be a challenge where hybrids can shine.
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  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 347 Arc User
    Cosmics. Don't. Need. To. Be. Changed. Again.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,267 Arc User
    Despite certain variants of speculations and a little bit of misinformation, part of the problem with the current end game content has nothing to do with construction of the fights or punishing attacks. If you feel its punishing then that signifies a problem on your end as a result of just not being as good as you think you are.

    The real problem stems that the game, as a whole, needs a head to toe make over. A new tutorial, a new starter experience, one that is more engaging, more emphasis on team play through the leveling process, more dungeons to encourage said teaming, better loot protocols, a more involved gearing system besides mod swapping, and a stat system that is easy to understand. The game itself doesn't prepare people for the end game, even the alerts are too damn easy to get through for a soloist, and only the greenest of the green (aka to MMOs in general) would think alerts are hard or even offer decent challenge.

    To anyone who has had raid experience before this game, from WOW or other games, the cosmic battles are fairly standard, and follow the most simple form. It's a good introduction in a game that has practically no dungeon and group experience, with Shadow Destroyer offering a nice upgrade in said challenge and difficulty with the standard raid tropes of DPS and heal checks. But that's the problem, it's an experience that comes at the end of the game that up until that point the rest of the game has not taught anyone.

    If the alert system was dumped or modified that it wasn't the bulk of XP but gave an XP boost only for normal leveling and the leveling experience was improved with adequate challenges leading up to the end game, things would be improved. A dungeon per neighborhood would go a long way with a loot system that gave proper gear instead of GCR/SCR. That is the draw of dungeons is the quest for loot in other games and since costumes are account wide, the costume hunt on repeat has to be painfully thin otherwise costumes, to be of value and rewarding have to be made per character, and let's face it, most people in this game are too self entitled to let that happened. I mean even back when they might have been considered challenging, CO had a painful thin number of actual dungeons for grouping purposes (Doctor Destroyer's Robot Factory, Necrull's Lair, Doctor Mureau's Lab, VIPER Nest, Mandragalore and Andrithal with NemCon and Therakiel's Temple having been added later but in dire need of renovation at this point). The ironic part is there is a lot more places that could have been dungeons and offered more challenges for groups as well as loot (Purple Gang Hideout, ARGENT HQ or PSI HQ, Stronghold Prison, Eclipse's Lair, and many others). Just a lot of missed opportunities there.

    And again, the stat system is a convoluted mess. Even to a veteran player it still possesses a lot of obtuseness it doesn't need. A lot of stats are superfluous or outright useless, having no reason to have been made core stats to begin with (endurance and recovery) with others barely serving a function. Honestly,t his whole system needs a do over in this case, but I would outline that in another post than here.

    Of course, at this point if a ground up rebuild is required you might as well just put resources towards creating Champions Online 2 or at least a brand new Champions game.
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,528 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    The only reason I can see Cosmics getting STRONKER is because the revamping of more and more powerframes opened the gates for more DPS builds and as part of the balance cosmics will change to reflect that
    The cosmic fights didn't become easier but the players became more experienced and strategic

    but i STILL find it lazy design constantly recycling 3-4 cosmics over and over and over again

    You know what's better than Hybrids?
    Dual Passives character who can switch from DPS to TANK when needed
    Those are the True MVPs

    oh and you have too much hope that hybrids want to help, i see most people joining cosmics just to get carried by others without trying to improve and contribute

    also summoning more entities in Dino fight will cause the old invisible dino bug to happen again

    Dear Lord, Alert update and the constant easy difficulty made everyone so soft
    but again this is design flaw, the game isn't preparing you for the difficulty swift of endgame
    and the thing I keep hearing people say since i joined is that "The game is too easy"
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Oh and like Vixy pointed out they have been adding new content o3o
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    Endless lockboxes and Event spam with no substance to the game's plot & lore​​
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  • spinnytop said:


    Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

    Yes, duh?. A game should design content on existing character classes/types/roles.
    It doesn't go over well in when class is never picked cause of , and I don't think I've seen any where class X is excluded.
    Champions is 8 years old, and well .. IMO has to live it the mess it made and design accordingly. Not just most of the time, but all content, even Eldy.

    Plus champions is a free form game, trinity play is going to be an issue, it's not like people didn't point that out.

    That said like @championshewolf said it's not as bad as players think. Extra tanks have found a side place at Kiga, and Q, Dps is usually not an issue until no one can reach the tomb. But ...

    Eldy seems to be under tanked (1 mega-uber tank) with the current dps requirement, there seems to be a large problem here with any extra non-dps player. Challenge seems to have over taken design.

    Dino also seems to be a big issue, tanks get cheated out of rewards, people complain about average dps (parser output) and ignore blast power (spike dps). Something if hybrids (and even extra tanks) aren't capable of it should be made available. Side note: Honestly I find the lack of good powers in Vixy's thread is just depressing.

    (Side Rant) Added to that, Dino fails to obey the set in game rules. Bubbles/Boom/Foom/WireFrames should mean Block or Flee. Period. End of story. (Also warnings need to be over indicated in size not undersized). Not Block .. except this one time just at Dino when it Booms but *doesn't* do that thing .. and oh baby's bubbles should be ignored just in that specific time .. except when they don't cause they were technically earlier then that other thing.
    spinnytop said:


    On the other hand, sometimes we're struggling to find a tank, any tank at all, just to get the cosmic started so making a fight require even more tanks could slow things down. However, if it was known that there was more tanky stuff to do then people might be more willing to show up as their tanky characters. Lots of maybes.

    I'll say it, I'd make a tank (or tuff hybrid-with-tank-passive), and have tanked here and in other games. Big problem is, cosmic tanking sucks for me here. I"m getting on in years and reflex/rhythm games are a no go, and with all the blocking the system is just not engaging for me. The option of creating an in-game bind that hits then blocks for me just feels like cheating, as does just blocking.

    So until we get passed the one-shot every hit style boss you have one less tank.

    FWIF Tanking the current Destroids where I could take a hit was much more engaging. I'll admit it too easy when everything things is perfect, but the balance between 'real tough tank' vs 'ok tank with ok healer' vs "?tank? with godly healer" was much better, and also a lot more balanced between being dps vs tank skillwize
    spinnytop said:


    My obvious idea is: adds.

    I like adds too we even do have adds, I even liked your 'swarm of argent' cosmic in the other thread.
    Balance (we just kill the adds) and not lagging everyone could be an issue, also not swarms of adds at every cosmic. Be nice to somehow deal with add goes straight to the squishiest healer issue.

    .. Kiga has nice alternative adds in the form of Tombs! Also the Dogs, which have/had 2 ways to deal with
    .. Q had nice adds in the form of hearts. But CC was forced here. There were spawn points for adds though for a long time, and nearly in a good position. So potential, except everyone hated on the worm adds.
    .. Teli if the baby spawned better the burst check could be changed to baby spawns (or big lizard). Need to decide weather the adds get killed so they don't over whelm you, or if you can tank them all. Big lizard would be tuff dps / hybrid style accessible (i.e. very very very easy by tank standards)

    1 ramble down
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,093 Arc User


    Eldy seems to be under tanked (1 mega-uber tank) with the current dps requirement, there seems to be a large problem here with any extra non-dps player. Challenge seems to have over taken design.

    Eido has damage splitting, but it's got two problems. One is that modern tanks don't terribly need it. The other is that the geysers mechanic means having a soak tank is actively detrimental, because it doubles the geyser spawns on the tank side.

    Dino also seems to be a big issue, tanks get cheated out of rewards, people complain about average dps (parser output) and ignore blast power (spike dps).

    For characters I've looked at, spike dps is strongly correlated with sustained dps, and sustained dps is easier to measure.

  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    And again, the stat system is a convoluted mess. Even to a veteran player it still possesses a lot of obtuseness it doesn't need. A lot of stats are superfluous or outright useless, having no reason to have been made core stats to begin with (endurance and recovery) with others barely serving a function. Honestly,t his whole system needs a do over in this case, but I would outline that in another post than here.
    How amusing. While I agree with most of this, I'm willing to be that, had it been me who posted this, you would've tried to mansplain how and why I was wrong/misinformed/etc.​​
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,267 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    How amusing. While I agree with most of this, I'm willing to be that, had it been me who posted this, you would've tried to mansplain how and why I was wrong/misinformed/etc.​​

    I do enjoy how you continue to prove your ignorance not to mention sexist remarks. Mansplain, really? And you wonder why I don't take you seriously. But then again only you would make this about gender politics instead of, you know, learning the real issue, never mind you are assuming I am a man to begin with.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    avianos said:

    Endless lockboxes and Event spam with no substance to the game's plot & lore​​

    Why do you people keep bringing up lockboxes anytime someone points out the fact that we've gotten new content? ...do you think lockboxes are content?

    Also calm down with the baelog gifs. Mods don't like those, remember?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    aesica said:


    Assuming the rewards for the easy setting aren't completely garbage, that is. Nobody wants to run content that isn't at least somewhat worth their time.​​

    Well the lair as it is right now would be the easy setting. Unless you're proposing a version of the lair that's even easier and only gives SCR as a reward... and the simple fact is that people would consider that a waste of time cause they're coming here for GCR. That's why you don't generally see "training wheels" versions of dungeons in games that give crap rewards - players don't want them, and won't use them. If anything you get your normal difficulty version, and your extra difficulty version - though when you see these you generally need much better gear for the extra difficulty version because when you don't have that restriction the result is that people just go to the extra difficulty version because if you're gonna spend your time doing something you want the best rewards you can get. 5 difficulty levels are certainly pointless, which has been proven in CO - people chose their difficulty level based on rewards and ultimately the entire system was a wash.

    I'd be fine with a "extra difficult" version of TA that has better rewards, but then the question becomes how do you keep the regular version relevant? I sure as hell wouldn't bring new people into the average version, I'd bring them right into the extra difficult version if there's no hard gate to keep me from doing so.

    There's another issue - are we advocating for the harder version just having higher damage and more hit points? Cause that'd be kinda stupid since that's one of the core complaints about the difficulty settings as they're implemented right now. Every time the subject of challenge come up people say "don't just boost numbers, add something that makes it more challenging in an interesting way". So, now the regular version can't even "train" you for the higher version since you'll just have to learn the new stuff once you start the higher version - and again without a gear gate this makes it even more likely the regular version would be ignored, why waste time learning something irrelevant?

    Unless of course you're just advocating the "boosted numbers" thing which itself has issues. How can you train to heal situations when you barely have to heal? How can you train to avoid/block things when they don't do enough damage to matter? How can you learn what you need to block as a tank if nothing's really a threat and the dps could easily tank it?

    It's just really not a viable idea once you consider player psychology and all the factors in play when it comes to "training" players on how to defeat an encounter.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    aesica said:


    How amusing. While I agree with most of this, I'm willing to be that, had it been me who posted this, you would've tried to mansplain how and why I was wrong/misinformed/etc.​​

    You could have just agreed... but instead you chose this response. Interesting.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,528 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also calm down with the baelog gifs. Mods don't like those, remember?
    I have no idea what Baelog even means... I google it and I get results about a dwarf in World of Warcraft
    Calm down? it was only one GIF? used for comical use, i don't think it will hurt anyone pig-30.gif
    Whatsu talking about Fox?​​
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,262 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Well the lair as it is right now would be the easy setting. Unless you're proposing a version of the lair that's even easier and only gives SCR as a reward... and the simple fact is that people would consider that a waste of time cause they're coming here for GCR. That's why you don't generally see "training wheels" versions of dungeons in games that give crap rewards - players don't want them, and won't use them. If anything you get your normal difficulty version, and your extra difficulty version - though when you see these you generally need much better gear for the extra difficulty version because when you don't have that restriction the result is that people just go to the extra difficulty version because if you're gonna spend your time doing something you want the best rewards you can get. 5 difficulty levels are certainly pointless, which has been proven in CO - people chose their difficulty level based on rewards and ultimately the entire system was a wash.
    To lay it out in a nice list format, here's what I'm thinking:

    1) Easier version of TA - difficulty and rewards on par with other custom alerts. Added to custom alert rotation. This is how the shyer people would get familiar with it and in turn, be more likely/willing to give the current TA a try.

    2) Current TA - difficulty/everything else unchanged.

    3) Harder TA - this would be the ballbuster version meant to challenge minmaxed, well-geared, and skillful players. Honestly, it should be something of a gear/build/skill check because it really isn't meant for the bulk of the population, or for someone who just hit 40 and wants to shortcut their way from merc gear into gcr gear as fast as possible. It's meant for true endgame characters who don't feel challenged by current content.

    The beauty of this is that it'd set the precedent for other custom alerts to get similar treatment over time, or even future endgame content.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I'd be fine with a "extra difficult" version of TA that has better rewards, but then the question becomes how do you keep the regular version relevant? I sure as hell wouldn't bring new people into the average version, I'd bring them right into the extra difficult version if there's no hard gate to keep me from doing so.
    The extra difficult version would ideally be tuned to pose a significant challenge. Assuming you and the people you bring are the best of the best in terms of builds, gear, skill, etc, then by all means, the extra difficult version is for you. But not everyone else fits this description; the bulk of the population would most likely fail on the hardest setting several times before settling on farming the average/current version. Since TA has a smaller group size, there's a much tighter margin for error in comparison to the open-world, free-for-all nature of cosmics, where multiple people can faceplant repeatedly due to neglegence while others just sit afk/do stupid things and the run still completes.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    There's another issue - are we advocating for the harder version just having higher damage and more hit points? Cause that'd be kinda stupid since that's one of the core complaints about the difficulty settings as they're implemented right now. Every time the subject of challenge come up people say "don't just boost numbers, add something that makes it more challenging in an interesting way". So, now the regular version can't even "train" you for the higher version since you'll just have to learn the new stuff once you start the higher version - and again without a gear gate this makes it even more likely the regular version would be ignored, why waste time learning something irrelevant?
    While more HP and bigger damage is typically a thing in higher difficulties, I agree that it shouldn't be used as a crutch because nobody wants to pound on some lame-**** brickwall meatsack that randomly 1-shots people for 30 minutes. Wow's approach is to add a few new mechanics to higher difficulties in such a way that the fight is still mostly familiar in terms of core mechanics, but is made more difficult in subtle ways. Maybe a certain aoe attack goes from "painful but survivable" to "lethal." Or maybe a certain add that explodes on death also applies a stacking max HP debuff on death in addition to exploding. Or maybe an add which pulses some sort of groupwide aoe spawns more frequently or in greater numbers. Or an add which fixates a random player before moving slowly toward them now fixates boss's current aggro target (tank) specifically. So on and soforth.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Unless of course you're just advocating the "boosted numbers" thing which itself has issues. How can you train to heal situations when you barely have to heal? How can you train to avoid/block things when they don't do enough damage to matter? How can you learn what you need to block as a tank if nothing's really a threat and the dps could easily tank it?
    Jack Fool is actually a pretty good example here, as is Baron Cemitarairealdkjg. Both of them are tuned for random leveling pugs, but also, they have attacks and mechanics that players either learn how to deal with or suddenly finding themselves taking a ton of damage, possibly faceplanting in the process.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It's just really not a viable idea once you consider player psychology and all the factors in play when it comes to "training" players on how to defeat an encounter.
    I dunno, it seems to work fine in STO, with Normal, Advanced, and Elite difficulties. Low-geared/non-max-level/lesser-skilled/megacasual players mainly do Normal for sightseeing if nothing else. The bulk of the playerbase farms Advanced while only the biggest, hardest epeens thrust themselves into Elite. Wow actually has 4 different difficulties for its raids--LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. While I think 4 is unnecessary (I suspect one was added to shut the anti-LFR whiners up) the model works well for it, too.

    It's worth a shot at least once, I'd say.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Okay... and what are people expected to learn in a custom alert difficulty version of TA that people are thrown into in random configurations? They're going to get to the real TA and still get stomped because all they did in your alert version of TA was zerg the place the same way they do all other alerts. Or if you leave it too close to the real TA, then people are going to be expecting something like a custom alert but instead they get something that takes much longer - you'd basically get the same reaction Cybermind got ( "takes too long!", "too hard cause color matching!" ) but worse. There isn't really a happy middle ground either, it's always going to be one or the other - either too short and soft for anyone to really have to learn anything, or too long and involved to be in the alert que.

    Also if you say "it's worth a shot at least once", well you did recently point out that you're kinda new to the game so that means you weren't around when the game had a bunch of content with the difficulty settings in place. So they gave that a shot. And it turned out the way I described it. That's where all my observations on this topic come from, actually seeing how it played out for several years in this very game.

    WoW has gear gating to keep players from just defaulting to the highest challenge level. I dunno about STO but I get the feeling they have the same since you specifically mentioned low-geared as a reason some do lower difficulty levels. We don't have the kind of gear ladder to support this since currently every part of our end game can be done with starting lvl 40 gear, and our top gear isn't far enough above that to base an entire tier of content around.

    That's why in the past the difficulty levels didn't mean much, everyone could do everything on Elite difficulty so there really wasn't much point doing it on anything lower. Why? Because like you said, nobody wants to run content that isn't worth their time. Why take lower rewards when nothing is stopping you from going after the better ones?


    PS - the "let's just try it once" mentality tends to run face first into the brick wall of "we don't have time to be experimenting like that, we're very busy".
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,069 Arc User
    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    And making maximum amount of health pool low is good for making self-heal efficient to look with low PRE.
    So I'm not taking much CON on my build except for Tank / Support role now.

    CON for protector, PRE for support, ether STR/EGO/DEX primary stats as DPS, so anyone taking END/INT/REC as primary stats? Can't find any meaning for choosing them now. o3o
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,779 Arc User
    monaahiru said:

    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    I disagree:

    * Survive KIga storms better with higher defense health, reduces pressure on healers
    * Qwijy's lava pools can be extra deadly to toons with low defense and/or only 5-7000 health
    * Dino tail attacks, stomps can be survived with missed block by tougher toons
    * Eido's green orbs are more survivable by tougher toons, meaning less folks need rezzing and that means keeping up the DPS pressure
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,059 Arc User
    Hmm, by this same logic we will be seeing updates/tweaks to Rampages, OVs, Lairs, etc. with the big caveat about time. So, they may, or may not happen.
    kaizerin said:

    I'll pop in and verify this: Cosmics are intended to be challenging, and (barring time) will be updated and tweaked to retain that challenge. Right now we haven't had the time needed to go over them and give them the updates they need, but they haven't been forgotten.​​

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,924 Arc User

    Hmm, by this same logic we will be seeing updates/tweaks to Rampages, OVs, Lairs, etc. with the big caveat about time. So, they may, or may not happen.

    Not sure why OVs are on that list. I remember specifically being told that TA is done, other than changes to fix blatant exploits. I've also heard that Rampages are on the list for a big ol' tweakin'.

    I do wonder what they've been spending their time on during this event... can't have been the event itself since it didn't actually have many changes.

    monaahiru said:

    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    I disagree:

    * Survive KIga storms better with higher defense health, reduces pressure on healers
    * Qwijy's lava pools can be extra deadly to toons with low defense and/or only 5-7000 health
    * Dino tail attacks, stomps can be survived with missed block by tougher toons
    * Eido's green orbs are more survivable by tougher toons, meaning less folks need rezzing and that means keeping up the DPS pressure
    And I disagree with your disagreeal! \o3o/ More health is a crutch, and giving yourself more health so you can survive failed blocks is just a bad mindset to have. Especially in situations where the dps output you would have gotten from putting those points into dps stats would be much more useful, i.e. dino and eido greens. I mean come on, the windups to the stuff you gotta block in this game are so slow it's like fighting a drunk old man who does that corny "big windup punch" you see in cartoons u3u
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