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Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
Currently if all the tank roles are filled and you show up as a tank, or a tanky hybrid, or a tuff dps you're basically just "making the whole thing take longer" or "making us fail checks". That's kinda lame and kind of a bummer to people who never seem to be able to fill those tank roles but don't want to see their tuffness going to waste. So, should there be something for them to do?

On the other hand, sometimes we're struggling to find a tank, any tank at all, just to get the cosmic started so making a fight require even more tanks could slow things down. However, if it was known that there was more tanky stuff to do then people might be more willing to show up as their tanky characters. Lots of maybes.

My obvious idea is: adds.

- Teliosaurus roars and calls in a swarm of tough very dangerous raptors that will shred the dps. The tanks on mom and dino can't get them cause they have to stay put so we need some tuff heroes to round them up. The raptors have a stacking buff that makes them more and more deadly, so we have to nuke them down before they carve even the tuff heroes to pieces. They don't actually have that many hit points so it doesn't take too long.
- Ape roars and calls down several glowing hot molten rocks. These rocks have a damage reflect aura which means squishy dps will have a hard time dealing with them, but tuff heroes will be able to lay into them and smash them before they, you guessed it, blow up and kill everybody! ( or just give everyone a nasty debuff that will make ape's next big aoe kill them )
- Eido's portals stay open permanently at some point in the fight.
- Kiga says "I" and summons a number of kamikaze ice demons. They hit pretty hard, and after a bit they explode dealing massive damage around themselves. We need tuff heroes to aggro them and then lead them away from the group so they can explode safely.


Obviously all these ideas have their own issues that the fight would need to be adjusted around ( for example the ape one would make it so we would only want tuff dps at ape, so the fight would need to be adjusted to make squishy dps still desired ) but that's more of a "deal with it later" thing. Also as I mentioned before this would add more required roles to fights and potentially more time spent searching for those roles, as well as more time spent explaining things to people.



The main question here is should cosmics be changed so that tuff heroes other than the 1-3 main tanks can feel useful? also, some ideas on additions that could achieve this.
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Comments

  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,267 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    The role restriction isn't really game enforced it is player enforced, and this is something of a discussion that should be had with them. And that problem is a double edged sword. Most that come in hybrid role tend to do very little to meet the basics of their roles potential, let alone the maximum, which further increases the stereotype that hybrids are useless. Add into that facet that ones with support passives tend to not even focus on those passives thus disrupt the more useful passives, such as AoPM and such, which requires presence to make them useful to anyone but themselves, and you just got a hot mess with how the system works.

    It also doesn't help that many of them always refuse to take help or advice to improve themselves. Again a double edged sword.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • servantrulesservantrules Posts: 287 Arc User
    To a certain extent, I agree some new additions to the cosmic (or an entirely new cosmic... c'mon Megalodon) fights could keep things fresh. However, I'm not entirely sure it should be skewed to the "tuff" hybrids just to have them do something other than be average, rather than shine in these fights.

    On that note, I agree with championshewolf, it's more a concern with many hybrid players not being able to adapt (which is odd, given the nature). My main is a hybrid, but it tanks and DPS's well enough by switching roles and passives on the fly, whichever is needed. That said, it took a while to get everything right, and it can't be the best (dedicated Tanks and DPS will outperform me pound for pound). But that's the tradeoff. Great at both, but not the best.
  • naciiitonaciiito Posts: 789 Arc User
    I always saw hybrids for kind of like support like role, helping specifically a designed role to extend their job, I can see this with some of the hybrid ATs, they look like all have something thought behind to make them useful in team content, which is kind of cool, like every hybrid AT has like his own meta and ways to help a raid​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
    Heals isn't a role, support is, and support is the buff role, in addition to heals, crowd control, and debuffing. Splitting it off into nice neat little "do this and nothing else" roles sounds, to be frank, really boring.

    Anyways, back to the topic :D
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,265 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    - Ape roars and calls down several glowing hot molten rocks. These rocks have a damage reflect aura which means squishy dps will have a hard time dealing with them, but tuff heroes will be able to lay into them and smash them before they, you guessed it, blow up and kill everybody! ( or just give everyone a nasty debuff that will make ape's next big aoe kill them )
    - Eido's portals stay open permanently at some point in the fight.
    - Kiga says "I" and summons a number of kamikaze ice demons. They hit pretty hard, and after a bit they explode dealing massive damage around themselves. We need tuff heroes to aggro them and then lead them away from the group so they can explode safely.
    While I appreciate what you're trying to do, the more roles you add, the harder it can be to assemble an acceptable group in a game with a small population like this one. Maybe instead of trying to carve out a niche for these "tuff" characters, maybe we should try to close the gap a bit between hybrid and dedicated damage.

    *Queue the freakout*

    Okay, now with that out of the way, consider these damage numbers on a junk character of mine in the powerhouse using an offensive passive and a ranged damage power:

    No Role Bonus: 2,917 :: 100% (using melee role)
    Hybrid Bonus: 3,062 :: 105%
    Ranged Bonus: 3,646 :: 125%

    Now I know the hybrid bonus is a little weird because it's based on superstats rather than set values, like ranged and melee's 125%. This character is a test character using full armadillo gear, so testing it on a better-geared character yielded about 109%. Still pretty lousy. The question that's open for debate is where should this bonus sit? 115%? 120%? Obviously no higher than that. Either way, lifting up hybrid damage would be one way to make tougher characters less of a hindrance to group content. Dedicated damage would still have the upper hand at 125%

    (Of course, all this is operating on the assumption that these tougher characters in question are hybrids, as they're traditionally tougher at the cost of damage output.)​​
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,533 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    My obvious idea is: adds.
    I'm sorry but this really isn't going to work, it would make the fights more annoying if anything and more laggy
    The role restriction isn't really game enforced it is player enforced, and this is something of a discussion that should be had with them. And that problem is a double edged sword. Most that come in hybrid role tend to do very little to meet the basics of their roles potential, let alone the maximum, which further increases the stereotype that hybrids are useless. Add into that facet that ones with support passives tend to not even focus on those passives thus disrupt the more useful passives, such as AoPM and such, which requires presence to make them useful to anyone but themselves, and you just got a hot mess with how the system works.

    It also doesn't help that many of them always refuse to take help or advice to improve themselves. Again a double edged sword.
    pretty much this​​
    Post edited by avianos on
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,113 Arc User

    The role restriction isn't really game enforced it is player enforced.

    This is not entirely true. The basic situation is that you don't want (major) wasted capabilities in a fight, and a defensive passive on a character who isn't taking damage is wasted capability, and if you're splitting your abilities between multiple roles, whichever you aren't doing at any given time is wasted.

    However, I'm not sure how you design your fights around that. You can put minimum tank thresholds on a fight (e.g. Rampage Gravitar, where if you can't take 8-10k to the face you'll be decorating the ground) but that just excludes a different set of characters. You can design a fight to require more tanks, but then it's impossible if you don't have those tanks.

    The other half of this, though, is that the people who are showing up as hybrids, or as tanks who don't tank, are people who are unwilling to adapt their play to the needs of the fight. It is not likely that changing the fights will make them suddenly willing.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,347 Arc User
    more adds = more effects going off = more chances for the game to crash just as a cosmic goes down for one or more people, screwing them out of their rewards​​
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,779 Arc User
    I think the main issue is simply AoPM.

    Many folks love this passive, since it is super useful for going solo. It was also useful in TA, with a very tough DPS being useful (taking pressure off the healer). Most of my toons used to use it, and I had to retcon out of it for all my main characters to show up at Cosmics. Why? As SheWolf pointed out, the way auras work just makes a non-Presence, hybrid-use AoPM a liability to most groups.

    Until a hybrid passive that is a personal-only AoPM is made, I don't think this is gonna work.

    P.S. I would love to see a personal-only AoPM like passive in game.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,113 Arc User
    gradii said:

    How about having more roles than just "Heals" "Tank" and "DPS" why isnt "Buff" ever powerful enough to be a role?​​

    Because the way buffs work in CO, you can do them along with being a healer. Any one of the offensive support auras (AoAC, AoED, AoPM) is an enormous team bonus (far outweighing one more dps), but they're mostly passive, and if you've got 600-800 Pre and are in support role, you might as well heal.

    I think the main issue is simply AoPM.

    I don't really. The most popular passives for hybrid users are probably Regeneration, Invulnerability, and then AoPM, probably because the first two passives utterly trivialize pre-endgame content.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,113 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Actually, here's a really simple way to make 'tough dps' a more reasonable option. Change certain of the 'blocking mandatory' attacks into 'blocking needed if not tough'. For example, the dino's DoT is 6 tics of 20% of health, irresistible, canceled with a properly timed block, which basically kills anyone who doesn't have direct healer attention unless you tap block at the right time. If it was instead 6 tics of 3k damage (normal), not canceled by blocking, most builds could block their way through it, and tougher builds could just keep attacking.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,347 Arc User
    3K before or after resists and presumably with healer assistance? because being able to survive that without outside help would require above 18K HP...and that's generally tank level, not hybrid​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,113 Arc User

    3K before or after resists and presumably with healer assistance? because being able to survive that without outside help would require above 18K HP...and that's generally tank level, not hybrid​​

    Before resists. Any defensive passive will withstand that handily unless you have no con.
  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 348 Arc User
    Nope. Nuh-uh. No. Negative. NOOOOOOOOO!!!

    Giving these assholes their own mobs is a horrible idea.

    Besides Kiga and Ape the other two fights are enough of a pile of ****. I'd go into reasons why, but I've been there before and don't need to do it again. My Hybrid can tank it's way through most alerts if a dedicated tank isn't there, is able to ignore Kiga's storms (which I know is largely thanks to being buffed by support and healer toons), and often places high enough on the scoreboard with the need to scroll down. Whatever the value at the end, that's good enough for me.

    The Cosmics DO NOT NEED ANYTHING ADDED TO THEM. Barring something like an environmental device that provides a temporary massive HoT to those present in the Team-Up, you know, so healers can have maybe five seconds without trying to provide a constant stream heals to 20 people or more.

    I mean, I've already completely stopped going to the dino fights because the bubble spam is utterly ridiculous. It would be different if it was -possible- to lure the baby away so melee toons only had to worry about the bubbles from mama-dino. Often though even my ranged toons fall within both sets of bubbles.

    Really the intricacies of these raids should involve changing tactics, not retconning characters.

    In short, just because you're bored with them doesn't mean it's time to make these things EVEN MORE difficult. It would be the Eido revamp all over again. Which I've just started to try and go when I see the callout because I find the current strategy effective especially with participating in it.
  • dilgeardilgear Posts: 40 Arc User
    Sorry but I don't like the idea, sounds even more tedious. If people blame hybrids at cosmics for not being dedicated at something in specific then just buff hybrids, if not happening, then let them be as they are and simply, "deal with it".
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
    avianos said:


    pretty much this​​

    So then if it's only player-enforced, lets have a hybrid-only Dino and Eido owo
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,267 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop said:

    avianos said:


    pretty much this​​

    So then if it's only player-enforced, lets have a hybrid-only Dino and Eido owo
    That would be interesting. I think the issue is that hybrids for the most part always pick a defensive passive or AoPM. AoPM would not be as bad if they would actually devote points to presence, but it just ends up making everyone else weaker as a result, and the only other solution would be to remove the aura effect from the aura. The others, just picking a defensive passive, just end up being a mildly stronger (damage wise but weaker defense realistically) tank rarely being able to match the power and damage they could do in a hybrid role. Again a double edged sword, and many who play the hybrid role (that aren't forced into it because of being an AT that is) essentially want their cake and eat it to with hybrid and it just ends up being mediocre across the board.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,597 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I don't think the issue is about Hybrids vs Not Hybrids. Right now, with the exception of Eido, most Cosmics are not much of a challenge and more of a GCR farm, in which case it's not vital to bring your absolute best and it's more about just not dragging the group down. And while Hybrids are not the absolute best for anything, they are capable of contributing positively...if the players know what they're doing.

    We've had plenty of times where we needed tanks at Dino and were standing around with people who were in tank role with def passives but were unwilling to tank. The issue is more to do with people showing up and expecting others to carry them. It's the "I need GCR and even though you need it too, I won't be helpful while hoping that you and others will be" mentality. I don't think it's possible to firmly fix this issue in open world content as there will always be unhelpful people that drag others down.

    Willfully unhelpful people are not going to be liked...anywhere. Unfortunately, the Hybrid role icon has become an easy lazy way to quickly identify them. I'd urge some restraint here. It'd be best to judge people's performance by looking at parses of fights to determine their degree of helpfulness.

    Luckily, many people actually want to be helpful as long as they have information, a low-pressure environment in which to make mistakes to learn via experience, and some incentive to take the first step.

    The entitled group that expects others to procure their gcr for them and then whines about the game when it doesn't happen is relatively small.
    spinnytop said:

    My obvious idea is: adds.

    I like this idea a lot. I think the fights have been an easy farm for a very long time and could use an update with a fresh challenge. Giving offtanks a more active role and introducing more movement to the fights via more mobs seems like a good idea. Once they are actually challenging again then it will be vital to bring, not just who can pass the lowest bar of helpfulness, but your actual best to the fight. The idea will also, hopefully, reduce the easy 100% win ratios of these fights and the entitled attitudes that accompany such win ratios.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,533 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    kamokami wrote: »
    I like this idea a lot. I think the fights have been an easy farm for a very long time and could use an update with a fresh challenge.

    Instead of recycling cosmics over and over and over again to the death, how about NEW CONTENT?


    You cannot keep the game alive with the same 4 cosmics forever (Grond and Megalodon say hi along with new epic lairs)
    People ask for more than just open world bosses​​
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 72+ Characters (7 ATs, 65 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    avianos said:


    Instead of recycling cosmics over and over and over again to the death, how about NEW CONTENT?

    Yeah cause the last time they added a new more challenging open world boss people were instantly excited and started doing it instead of the regular three cosmics o3o

    Also epic lairs are super popular right? Let's have some more of those for people to not run u3u
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,533 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah cause the last time they added a new more challenging open world boss people were instantly excited and started doing it instead of the regular three cosmics o3o
    It's lazy design, Cosmics are already perfect right now, you cannot recycle them forever, CO's content is already stale (exluding events and lockboxes)

    add new cosmics if you want to with new challenges
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also epic lairs are super popular right? Let's have some more of those for people to not run u3u
    Their loss for being Snobs against TA, refusing to learn the basic strategies and thinking it's only a "Buddy fight" lair for only Cool kids onion-24.gif

    also their lose for not having enviromental awareness onion-24.gif

    have a happy Onion​​
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 72+ Characters (7 ATs, 65 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,113 Arc User
    kamokami said:

    Unfortunately, the Hybrid role icon has become an easy lazy way to quickly identify them.

    Tank role in among the dps is a far better indicator of being somewhere between horribly useless and actively contributing to failure.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,265 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yeah cause the last time they added a new more challenging open world boss people were instantly excited and started doing it instead of the regular three cosmics o3o

    Also epic lairs are super popular right? Let's have some more of those for people to not run u3u
    That's because...well I'll just use this quote to answer it:
    kamokami wrote: »
    Right now, with the exception of Eido, most Cosmics are not much of a challenge and more of a GCR farm
    At the very least, I'd say this problem is twofold:

    1) Why should anyone bother with repeated wipes and failures against the harder content when they can just hop on the gravy train and get the same rewards from the easier content?

    2) While people love to say they want harder and harder stuff, the fact that they're shunning TA and Eido seems to indicate otherwise. The sooner the bulk of the playerbase can come to terms with the fact that "increasingly difficult content" isn't as good for the game nor as interesting to the majority of the playerbase as "new, interesting content with regulard, high-quality events," the better off this game will be.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    For someone who tries to act like a game design expert you sure don't understand basic stuff like interest curves. Increasingly challenging content is used in nearly every game ever for a reason. It's working in CO as well, just very slowly due to how soft the population gets from the extremely easy pre-endgame content. See what needs to happen is that the pre-endgame actually becomes more challenging, so it has a more normal difficulty curve. People think our end game is actually hard because they're comparing it to the stuff they were doing one level ago.

    Also saying TA is harder than cosmics... lol. TA bridges the gap between pre-endgame content and cosmics. It even has a mini version of Dino in there for people to train with. With literally a nerfed version of a cosmic in TA, I'm not sure how anyone could say TA is "the harder stuff".

    Also, the people who say they want harder and harder stuff are the ones running Eido and TA... and some other people who didn't even say that. I know you got your hopes up just now when I said "those contents are so unpoplar!" but fact is people do them more and more over time. They're gaining momentum, not losing it - which means they're good for the game. We just don't need any new ones cause people are still growing into what we have. ;)
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,597 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I recall that when the revamp happened the Cosmics were explicitly said to intentionally be very very challenging. Maybe devs minds have changed on that or maybe they have not had the time. But if neither of that is the case then I expect they'll be updated to be more difficult regardless of what else is being planned for release.

    As for Eido, the only difficult part left to overcome is organizing. Just to make sure, I tracked us having 23 wins over 14 days. All the runs were announced. We even had 2 weekends with 7 wins. This was about a month ago. Needing to organize and having people who want to do it is ultimately the biggest barrier.

    It's likely the same reason why TA, and any other instanced lair, is less popular than the 3 Cosmics.
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 2,096 Cryptic Developer
    I'll pop in and verify this: Cosmics are intended to be challenging, and (barring time) will be updated and tweaked to retain that challenge. Right now we haven't had the time needed to go over them and give them the updates they need, but they haven't been forgotten.​​
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,533 Arc User
    Here is an Idea
    How about creating NEW content instead of recycling existing one over and over again?​​
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 72+ Characters (7 ATs, 65 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,597 Arc User
    avianos said:

    Have you tried creating NEW Content instead of recycling existing one?​​

    Since they have not had time to go update them since revamp, I imagine that time has been taken up by the new content they've released over the past year+.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,947 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    avianos said:

    Here is an Idea

    How about creating NEW content instead of recycling existing one over and over again?​​

    You don't start building a new house until you made sure the one you're working on now is built right. Fact is our playerbase was so weak when Cosmics were first updated that it was very difficult to tell just what the long term "right strength" for cosmics was going to be. As time has gone on we've continually proven that cosmics were still not strong enough to face up to the community's potential. Someone once told me "As a dev you make an encounter that you're pretty sure is impossible, and then players have it on farm two weeks later". That's what's been happening here. The cosmic content may be new, but it's not finished yet and it still needs to be adjusted - they can't just keep expanding the game's content if what's here now isn't right. Just be happy we got a really long grace period where we were allowed to farm them because the devs underestimated us and were too busy to keep up with our growing potential.

    Oh and like Vixy pointed out they have been adding new content o3o
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