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Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    avianos said:

    Endless lockboxes and Event spam with no substance to the game's plot & lore​​

    Why do you people keep bringing up lockboxes anytime someone points out the fact that we've gotten new content? ...do you think lockboxes are content?

    Also calm down with the baelog gifs. Mods don't like those, remember?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica said:


    Assuming the rewards for the easy setting aren't completely garbage, that is. Nobody wants to run content that isn't at least somewhat worth their time.​​

    Well the lair as it is right now would be the easy setting. Unless you're proposing a version of the lair that's even easier and only gives SCR as a reward... and the simple fact is that people would consider that a waste of time cause they're coming here for GCR. That's why you don't generally see "training wheels" versions of dungeons in games that give crap rewards - players don't want them, and won't use them. If anything you get your normal difficulty version, and your extra difficulty version - though when you see these you generally need much better gear for the extra difficulty version because when you don't have that restriction the result is that people just go to the extra difficulty version because if you're gonna spend your time doing something you want the best rewards you can get. 5 difficulty levels are certainly pointless, which has been proven in CO - people chose their difficulty level based on rewards and ultimately the entire system was a wash.

    I'd be fine with a "extra difficult" version of TA that has better rewards, but then the question becomes how do you keep the regular version relevant? I sure as hell wouldn't bring new people into the average version, I'd bring them right into the extra difficult version if there's no hard gate to keep me from doing so.

    There's another issue - are we advocating for the harder version just having higher damage and more hit points? Cause that'd be kinda stupid since that's one of the core complaints about the difficulty settings as they're implemented right now. Every time the subject of challenge come up people say "don't just boost numbers, add something that makes it more challenging in an interesting way". So, now the regular version can't even "train" you for the higher version since you'll just have to learn the new stuff once you start the higher version - and again without a gear gate this makes it even more likely the regular version would be ignored, why waste time learning something irrelevant?

    Unless of course you're just advocating the "boosted numbers" thing which itself has issues. How can you train to heal situations when you barely have to heal? How can you train to avoid/block things when they don't do enough damage to matter? How can you learn what you need to block as a tank if nothing's really a threat and the dps could easily tank it?

    It's just really not a viable idea once you consider player psychology and all the factors in play when it comes to "training" players on how to defeat an encounter.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica said:


    How amusing. While I agree with most of this, I'm willing to be that, had it been me who posted this, you would've tried to mansplain how and why I was wrong/misinformed/etc.​​

    You could have just agreed... but instead you chose this response. Interesting.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also calm down with the baelog gifs. Mods don't like those, remember?
    I have no idea what Baelog even means... I google it and I get results about a dwarf in World of Warcraft
    Calm down? it was only one GIF? used for comical use, i don't think it will hurt anyone pig-30.gif
    Whatsu talking about Fox?​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Well the lair as it is right now would be the easy setting. Unless you're proposing a version of the lair that's even easier and only gives SCR as a reward... and the simple fact is that people would consider that a waste of time cause they're coming here for GCR. That's why you don't generally see "training wheels" versions of dungeons in games that give crap rewards - players don't want them, and won't use them. If anything you get your normal difficulty version, and your extra difficulty version - though when you see these you generally need much better gear for the extra difficulty version because when you don't have that restriction the result is that people just go to the extra difficulty version because if you're gonna spend your time doing something you want the best rewards you can get. 5 difficulty levels are certainly pointless, which has been proven in CO - people chose their difficulty level based on rewards and ultimately the entire system was a wash.
    To lay it out in a nice list format, here's what I'm thinking:

    1) Easier version of TA - difficulty and rewards on par with other custom alerts. Added to custom alert rotation. This is how the shyer people would get familiar with it and in turn, be more likely/willing to give the current TA a try.

    2) Current TA - difficulty/everything else unchanged.

    3) Harder TA - this would be the ballbuster version meant to challenge minmaxed, well-geared, and skillful players. Honestly, it should be something of a gear/build/skill check because it really isn't meant for the bulk of the population, or for someone who just hit 40 and wants to shortcut their way from merc gear into gcr gear as fast as possible. It's meant for true endgame characters who don't feel challenged by current content.

    The beauty of this is that it'd set the precedent for other custom alerts to get similar treatment over time, or even future endgame content.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I'd be fine with a "extra difficult" version of TA that has better rewards, but then the question becomes how do you keep the regular version relevant? I sure as hell wouldn't bring new people into the average version, I'd bring them right into the extra difficult version if there's no hard gate to keep me from doing so.
    The extra difficult version would ideally be tuned to pose a significant challenge. Assuming you and the people you bring are the best of the best in terms of builds, gear, skill, etc, then by all means, the extra difficult version is for you. But not everyone else fits this description; the bulk of the population would most likely fail on the hardest setting several times before settling on farming the average/current version. Since TA has a smaller group size, there's a much tighter margin for error in comparison to the open-world, free-for-all nature of cosmics, where multiple people can faceplant repeatedly due to neglegence while others just sit afk/do stupid things and the run still completes.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    There's another issue - are we advocating for the harder version just having higher damage and more hit points? Cause that'd be kinda stupid since that's one of the core complaints about the difficulty settings as they're implemented right now. Every time the subject of challenge come up people say "don't just boost numbers, add something that makes it more challenging in an interesting way". So, now the regular version can't even "train" you for the higher version since you'll just have to learn the new stuff once you start the higher version - and again without a gear gate this makes it even more likely the regular version would be ignored, why waste time learning something irrelevant?
    While more HP and bigger damage is typically a thing in higher difficulties, I agree that it shouldn't be used as a crutch because nobody wants to pound on some lame-**** brickwall meatsack that randomly 1-shots people for 30 minutes. Wow's approach is to add a few new mechanics to higher difficulties in such a way that the fight is still mostly familiar in terms of core mechanics, but is made more difficult in subtle ways. Maybe a certain aoe attack goes from "painful but survivable" to "lethal." Or maybe a certain add that explodes on death also applies a stacking max HP debuff on death in addition to exploding. Or maybe an add which pulses some sort of groupwide aoe spawns more frequently or in greater numbers. Or an add which fixates a random player before moving slowly toward them now fixates boss's current aggro target (tank) specifically. So on and soforth.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Unless of course you're just advocating the "boosted numbers" thing which itself has issues. How can you train to heal situations when you barely have to heal? How can you train to avoid/block things when they don't do enough damage to matter? How can you learn what you need to block as a tank if nothing's really a threat and the dps could easily tank it?
    Jack Fool is actually a pretty good example here, as is Baron Cemitarairealdkjg. Both of them are tuned for random leveling pugs, but also, they have attacks and mechanics that players either learn how to deal with or suddenly finding themselves taking a ton of damage, possibly faceplanting in the process.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It's just really not a viable idea once you consider player psychology and all the factors in play when it comes to "training" players on how to defeat an encounter.
    I dunno, it seems to work fine in STO, with Normal, Advanced, and Elite difficulties. Low-geared/non-max-level/lesser-skilled/megacasual players mainly do Normal for sightseeing if nothing else. The bulk of the playerbase farms Advanced while only the biggest, hardest epeens thrust themselves into Elite. Wow actually has 4 different difficulties for its raids--LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. While I think 4 is unnecessary (I suspect one was added to shut the anti-LFR whiners up) the model works well for it, too.

    It's worth a shot at least once, I'd say.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Okay... and what are people expected to learn in a custom alert difficulty version of TA that people are thrown into in random configurations? They're going to get to the real TA and still get stomped because all they did in your alert version of TA was zerg the place the same way they do all other alerts. Or if you leave it too close to the real TA, then people are going to be expecting something like a custom alert but instead they get something that takes much longer - you'd basically get the same reaction Cybermind got ( "takes too long!", "too hard cause color matching!" ) but worse. There isn't really a happy middle ground either, it's always going to be one or the other - either too short and soft for anyone to really have to learn anything, or too long and involved to be in the alert que.

    Also if you say "it's worth a shot at least once", well you did recently point out that you're kinda new to the game so that means you weren't around when the game had a bunch of content with the difficulty settings in place. So they gave that a shot. And it turned out the way I described it. That's where all my observations on this topic come from, actually seeing how it played out for several years in this very game.

    WoW has gear gating to keep players from just defaulting to the highest challenge level. I dunno about STO but I get the feeling they have the same since you specifically mentioned low-geared as a reason some do lower difficulty levels. We don't have the kind of gear ladder to support this since currently every part of our end game can be done with starting lvl 40 gear, and our top gear isn't far enough above that to base an entire tier of content around.

    That's why in the past the difficulty levels didn't mean much, everyone could do everything on Elite difficulty so there really wasn't much point doing it on anything lower. Why? Because like you said, nobody wants to run content that isn't worth their time. Why take lower rewards when nothing is stopping you from going after the better ones?


    PS - the "let's just try it once" mentality tends to run face first into the brick wall of "we don't have time to be experimenting like that, we're very busy".
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    And making maximum amount of health pool low is good for making self-heal efficient to look with low PRE.
    So I'm not taking much CON on my build except for Tank / Support role now.

    CON for protector, PRE for support, ether STR/EGO/DEX primary stats as DPS, so anyone taking END/INT/REC as primary stats? Can't find any meaning for choosing them now. o3o
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    monaahiru said:

    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    I disagree:

    * Survive KIga storms better with higher defense health, reduces pressure on healers
    * Qwijy's lava pools can be extra deadly to toons with low defense and/or only 5-7000 health
    * Dino tail attacks, stomps can be survived with missed block by tougher toons
    * Eido's green orbs are more survivable by tougher toons, meaning less folks need rezzing and that means keeping up the DPS pressure
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Hmm, by this same logic we will be seeing updates/tweaks to Rampages, OVs, Lairs, etc. with the big caveat about time. So, they may, or may not happen.
    kaizerin said:

    I'll pop in and verify this: Cosmics are intended to be challenging, and (barring time) will be updated and tweaked to retain that challenge. Right now we haven't had the time needed to go over them and give them the updates they need, but they haven't been forgotten.​​

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    Hmm, by this same logic we will be seeing updates/tweaks to Rampages, OVs, Lairs, etc. with the big caveat about time. So, they may, or may not happen.

    Not sure why OVs are on that list. I remember specifically being told that TA is done, other than changes to fix blatant exploits. I've also heard that Rampages are on the list for a big ol' tweakin'.

    I do wonder what they've been spending their time on during this event... can't have been the event itself since it didn't actually have many changes.

    monaahiru said:

    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    I disagree:

    * Survive KIga storms better with higher defense health, reduces pressure on healers
    * Qwijy's lava pools can be extra deadly to toons with low defense and/or only 5-7000 health
    * Dino tail attacks, stomps can be survived with missed block by tougher toons
    * Eido's green orbs are more survivable by tougher toons, meaning less folks need rezzing and that means keeping up the DPS pressure
    And I disagree with your disagreeal! \o3o/ More health is a crutch, and giving yourself more health so you can survive failed blocks is just a bad mindset to have. Especially in situations where the dps output you would have gotten from putting those points into dps stats would be much more useful, i.e. dino and eido greens. I mean come on, the windups to the stuff you gotta block in this game are so slow it's like fighting a drunk old man who does that corny "big windup punch" you see in cartoons u3u
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Okay... and what are people expected to learn in a custom alert difficulty version of TA that people are thrown into in random configurations? They're going to get to the real TA and still get stomped because all they did in your alert version of TA was zerg the place the same way they do all other alerts.
    Let's use Cybermind as an example and say it has a difficulty tier released on par with TA. You need a tank, you need DPS that aren't playing like potatoes, and you need a healer vs the random hodgepodge you get with a custom alert. Ask yourself, what do you know about fighting Cybermind currently?

    1) You know that different colored light columns are used to match tile colors (or his color in the last phase) to prevent death. Also, matching colors is needed to kill probes of the same color.

    2) You know that his basic attack is a melee cone, so you know that squishy melee shouldn't be in front of him.

    3) You know having no one in melee range means he'll start blasting people with a knockback that can be fatal during his data storm attack.

    So already, you have an advantage going in over someone who's never seen Cybermind before, even if he gains a few new mechanics and attacks.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Or if you leave it too close to the real TA, then people are going to be expecting something like a custom alert but instead they get something that takes much longer - you'd basically get the same reaction Cybermind got ( "takes too long!", "too hard cause color matching!" ) but worse. There isn't really a happy middle ground either, it's always going to be one or the other - either too short and soft for anyone to really have to learn anything, or too long and involved to be in the alert que.
    To be honest, I think people in this game have gotten spoiled with ridiculously-short queued content. Cybermind is actually pretty short compared to the typical 5-man wow dungeon, and since that's what I was used to, I never had a problem with it. Some of the others, like Grab and Red Winter, actually feel lazy and too short, but that's for another topic I suppose.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also if you say "it's worth a shot at least once", well you did recently point out that you're kinda new to the game so that means you weren't around when the game had a bunch of content with the difficulty settings in place. So they gave that a shot. And it turned out the way I described it. That's where all my observations on this topic come from, actually seeing how it played out for several years in this very game.
    How were the rewards, though? Generally, most people don't seem like they give a crap about challenge unless the rewards are worthwhile, so if the rewards weren't worth the effort, then of course people took the path of least resistance and ignored the harder settings.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    WoW has gear gating to keep players from just defaulting to the highest challenge level. I dunno about STO but I get the feeling they have the same since you specifically mentioned low-geared as a reason some do lower difficulty levels. We don't have the kind of gear ladder to support this since currently every part of our end game can be done with starting lvl 40 gear, and our top gear isn't far enough above that to base an entire tier of content around.
    STO is flat like CO, but they like to add new stuff to keep things fresh and players motivated, plus there's a lot more gear slots in general--ships have a lot of slots plus ground combat involves outfitting not just your character, but up to 4 of your bridge officers as well. It takes a lot of know-how to gear properly in that game and there's a lot of different gear and combinations to choose from, so those who fail the exam might as well be considered lesser-geared. The gear curve doesn't change all that much each time new instances roll out, but I still prefer to start with the normal to get acquainted before jumping up to advanced.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    That's why in the past the difficulty levels didn't mean much, everyone could do everything on Elite difficulty so there really wasn't much point doing it on anything lower. Why? Because like you said, nobody wants to run content that isn't worth their time. Why take lower rewards when nothing is stopping you from going after the better ones?
    Then that's an issue on how the difficulties were scaled and designed, not the concept itself. Someone fresh out of the 40 gate with their merc gear shouldn't be able to do the highest difficulty level. If they can, then what's left to challenge someone using all the best stuff on their favorite minmax character?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    PS - the "let's just try it once" mentality tends to run face first into the brick wall of "we don't have time to be experimenting like that, we're very busy".
    But a game that never tries anything new never evolves.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    Let's use Cybermind as an example

    You would have to add mechanics to Cybermind to make it TA level difficulty. You can't just jack up his numbers and say "That's TA!". Considering people already seem to have trouble matching colors, good luck with that.
    aesica said:


    To be honest, I think people in this game have gotten spoiled with ridiculously-short queued content. Cybermind is actually pretty short compared to the typical 5-man wow dungeon, and since that's what I was used to, I never had a problem with it. Some of the others, like Grab and Red Winter, actually feel lazy and too short, but that's for another topic I suppose.

    Sure, add an alert into a category that's significantly longer than all the other ones... cause people love that about Pyramid Power right? Oh wait we could add it into the Rampage que... oh wait everybody thinks Lemurian Invasion is too long. Yeah, adding it to the que kinda misses the point of the que: it's short bite size content that doesn't take long.
    aesica said:


    How were the rewards, though? Generally, most people don't seem like they give a crap about challenge unless the rewards are worthwhile, so if the rewards weren't worth the effort, then of course people took the path of least resistance and ignored the harder settings.

    When higher difficulties gave better rewards, people only did the higher difficulties. Once the rewards weren't worth the effort, people stopped running them altogether.
    aesica said:


    but I still prefer to start with the normal to get acquainted before jumping up to advanced.
    ​​

    Essentially the same as doing it "for lulz" if you can do the higher version with your current gear.
    aesica said:


    Then that's an issue on how the difficulties were scaled and designed, not the concept itself. Someone fresh out of the 40 gate with their merc gear shouldn't be able to do the highest difficulty level. If they can, then what's left to challenge someone using all the best stuff on their favorite minmax character?

    Merc gear? lol, you're not thinking back far enough. And yeah, it was an issue with how difficulties were scaled and designed. The problem is they were scaled and designed largely in the way that you're talking about, with the decision to advance through them from bottom to top being optional. If people ran them on lower difficulties it was generally because nobody had mentioned to them that there was no reason to do so.
    aesica said:


    But a game that never tries anything new never evolves.​​

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.

    It's great having a few toons not completely invested in DPS because

    * mistakes do happen, especially for reflex or attention-challenged folks like myself
    * backup rezzers are super useful at Eido
    * lag and connection drops happen

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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    You would have to add mechanics to Cybermind to make it TA level difficulty. You can't just jack up his numbers and say "That's TA!". Considering people already seem to have trouble matching colors, good luck with that.
    I specifically implied that when I said, "So already, you have an advantage going in over someone who's never seen Cybermind before, even if he gains a few new mechanics and attacks." ;)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Sure, add an alert into a category that's significantly longer than all the other ones... cause people love that about Pyramid Power right? Oh wait we could add it into the Rampage que... oh wait everybody thinks Lemurian Invasion is too long. Yeah, adding it to the que kinda misses the point of the que: it's short bite size content that doesn't take long.
    Pyramid Power isn't really any longer than any of the grab alerts. What people don't like about it is the fact that its competitor, Radiation Rumble, is so laughably short coupled with the fact that Burst rewards are garbage in the first place. Meanwhile, custom alerts are on more equal footing thanks to the need to check each one off list for the meta quest.

    That said, if TA is too long, there's no reason the custom alert version couldn't be sliced into several smaller, bite-size pieces. Wow actually does that with its raids in LFR vs the harder difficulties.

    GrMmHgD.png

    Each titled section (example: The Emerald Nightmare) is one full raid, with each subsection (Darkbough, Tormented Guardians, and Rift of Ain) being one LFR queue.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    When higher difficulties gave better rewards, people only did the higher difficulties. Once the rewards weren't worth the effort, people stopped running them altogether.

    Essentially the same as doing it "for lulz" if you can do the higher version with your current gear.
    Then the problem isn't the concept itself, but the execution. When properly tuned, people will ideally target the highest difficulties they can reliably manage to clear. If everyone (undergeared/underskilled and overgeared/skilled alike) just runs the highest difficulty together, then either the highest difficulty clearly isn't hard enough or the lower difficulty rewards are so bad there's no reason to even bother.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Right, but if everyone just discarded past designs rather than analyzing how to build upon their strengths and fix their weaknesses, we wouldn't be where we are as a civilization today. There's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Ignoring the length issue with TA, I'm not sure how you create a puggable version without making everything enormously weaker (something like 1/2 to 1/3 the damage), because pug teams might not have tanks or healers (squishy teams already fail at cybermind, but as long as you have either a healer or someone reasonably durable you can handle it).
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Ignoring the length issue with TA, I'm not sure how you create a puggable version without making everything enormously weaker (something like 1/2 to 1/3 the damage), because pug teams might not have tanks or healers (squishy teams already fail at cybermind, but as long as you have either a healer or someone reasonably durable you can handle it).
    That's one way to do it, along with toning down the severity of mechanics that spawn adds, fire patches or other telegraphed don't-stand-in-this attacks, etc.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    That's one way to do it, along with toning down the severity of mechanics that spawn adds, fire patches or other telegraphed don't-stand-in-this attacks, etc.​​

    In other words, destroying any hope your nerfed version has to teach people how to run the real one. All you'll manage to teach people is Medusa's bombs... unless you plan on nerfing those so they don't one shot either. How much have you actually run TA?
    aesica said:



    That said, if TA is too long, there's no reason the custom alert version couldn't be sliced into several smaller, bite-size pieces. Wow actually does that with its raids in LFR vs the harder difficulties.


    Each titled section (example: The Emerald Nightmare) is one full raid, with each subsection (Darkbough, Tormented Guardians, and Rift of Ain) being one LFR queue.

    There's a word you need to consider at this point: scope. Considering the devs consider TA to be done, you're going to need an amazing argument to convince them to go through all this work. And don't even start the argument with "chopping the lair up into smaller pieces will be easy and won't take much time", you're gonna need to go right to "okay this is gonna take a lot of work and a lot of time but here is the massive long term benefit you are guaranteed for all of this". Btw, nothing you've mentioned so far qualifies since the devs appear to be satisfied with the rate at which the number of people running TA is increasing.
    aesica said:


    Then the problem isn't the concept itself, but the execution. When properly tuned, people will ideally target the highest difficulties they can reliably manage to clear. If everyone (undergeared/underskilled and overgeared/skilled alike) just runs the highest difficulty together, then either the highest difficulty clearly isn't hard enough or the lower difficulty rewards are so bad there's no reason to even bother.

    Or, as I keep telling you, the game can't support this. You keep mentioning "undergeared"...there is no such thing in this game. You're thinking in terms of WoW - you need to start thinking in terms of CO.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    spinnytop said:

    monaahiru said:

    I've found the max amount of health pool isn't important at Cosmics except for Tank. We are all squishy unless we block at the timing necessary or we all die including protector role.

    I'm taking care for amount of defense because I take [The Best Defense] in skill tree to make my DPS high also helping me viable as possible with less health.

    I disagree:

    * Survive KIga storms better with higher defense health, reduces pressure on healers
    * Qwijy's lava pools can be extra deadly to toons with low defense and/or only 5-7000 health
    * Dino tail attacks, stomps can be survived with missed block by tougher toons
    * Eido's green orbs are more survivable by tougher toons, meaning less folks need rezzing and that means keeping up the DPS pressure
    And I disagree with your disagreeal! \o3o/ More health is a crutch, and giving yourself more health so you can survive failed blocks is just a bad mindset to have. Especially in situations where the dps output you would have gotten from putting those points into dps stats would be much more useful, i.e. dino and eido greens. I mean come on, the windups to the stuff you gotta block in this game are so slow it's like fighting a drunk old man who does that corny "big windup punch" you see in cartoons u3u
    I agree with your disagree to disagreal. \o3o/

    * Survive KIga storms /
    Any self heal power such like [Bountiful Chi Resurgence], [Conviction], [Bionic Shielding], [Reconstruction Circuits] etc... (we got a lot of self heal power much more then before) would help a lot during Kiga storms. I nearly never blocked during Kiga storm even my maximum health amount are low because Ice Tomb incoming soon. We have to kill it before it explode. (insta-death)
    The only importance during Kiga fight are the place were we stand. Too much close will kill self by Kiga-AoE, too much far or in air with flight power would kill team because we can't detect where Ice Tomb summoned.
    Healers' part of work are mostly on staying Tank alive.
    Just if, if my health got really low, I would block but I survive during the storm in most cases even with less amounts of healers.
    If someone is AT and could not take any self heal power, having CON would be some help. (I recommend to stand close to healer or purchase heal device rather then touching stats)
    But if someone with free form keep dieing... I think this person is having problem on build, control or on taking position.
    Also make your block toggle power before challenging Cosmics or TA. This makes huge difference. Kiga goes easy if we have CCer, Tank and Support to heal Tank. We don't even need much DPS at Kiga. Though if we are missing any of those in team-up it's impossible to finish.

    * Qwijy's lava pools /
    Keep blocking during walking across the lava pool in most short course. Never stay in lava pool for long seconds. Stay blocking and move out quick!
    Qwizy is also easy going if we have a Tank, CCer and support to heal Tank. very easy same as Kiga.

    * Dino tail attacks /
    Don't stand the place you could be hit by mom's tail.

    * Dino stomps /
    Block when you see yellow for stomp unless your already held. Block when you see yellow for hold. Block when you see green. But never block during damage check. We must do roughly 10,000 damages per person or mom heal becomes endless. This is the logic compact team-up only with 2 Tanks, Healer and all other are DPS goes smooth more then zone filled up with many random ppl.

    * Eido's green orbs /
    Destroy all of em before those explode... Or even if you stay alive, others will die anyway so it won't help at all for successful Eido run. I think in such case timer goes out before Eido got defeated.




    When I'm doing Cosmics/TA with DPS builds, they are having around 5000~6000 health (or less) as default (will be buffed by someones' AoPM or AoRP anyway) in most cases and never die unless I'm watching YouTube, Anime or doing something else at same time and not concentrating to Cosmic fight enough. Kiga, Ape, Dino is easy to do like such.
    I won't do such easy while running TA/Eido.

    If you need enough health at Cosmics fight, it will be rather better to ask someone having AoPM, high PRE and support role for good healing to join teamup. o3oノシ

    BTW I'm considering changing my healer to AoPM from AoRP but I'm feeling AoRP working well because I've challenged Eido 9 times and 8 were successful. (89% ) I need to do Eido 42 more times for nice out fittings. lol
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    In other words, destroying any hope your nerfed version has to teach people how to run the real one. All you'll manage to teach people is Medusa's bombs... unless you plan on nerfing those so they don't one shot either.
    So what you're saying then is that TA's mechanics are all about "this thing hits hard and has a lot of hp?" Sounds really fun. :| As for medusa's bombs, they don't need to one-shot to teach players to deal with them properly. Warlord's fire patches don't oneshot, but they hurt enough that you probably know about what a bad idea it is to remain standing in them (or behind them if you've got aggro, because knockback) right? Or that the black circle in Hi Pan's yinyang aoe hurts, that his dragon's attacks should be blocked or (ideally) stopped. So on and soforth.

    Why does everything need to one-shot to be proper learning experience?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    How much have you actually run TA?
    Honestly, never really. I tried once when it first came out, but the group disbanded because it couldn't find a tank. Never really bothered trying since. As someone who hasn't run it before, trust me when I say that there's a barrier that exists between older group content (which it is now) and players having no experience with it. "Git gud/know the fight" is a thing, and nobody wants to be the person that drags the group down in smaller settings because everybody's performance is important for success.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Or, as I keep telling you, the game can't support this. You keep mentioning "undergeared"...there is no such thing in this game. You're thinking in terms of WoW - you need to start thinking in terms of CO.
    There's a reason I said "undergeared/underskilled" instead of just "undergeared." ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aesica said:


    So what you're saying then is that TA's mechanics are all about "this thing hits hard and has a lot of hp?"

    People don't solve problems they don't need to solve. If you can just power through some challenge, that's what people will do. Thus, you need to make things hard enough that people don't just absorb the hits and keep going. The problem is that the power difference between a random pug and a team that includes appropriate tanks and healers is huge, so any challenge that can be beaten by the first will be trivialized by the second.
    aesica said:

    Why does everything need to one-shot to be proper learning experience?

    Because you don't want to teach people 'ignore the bombs, just block'.

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    aesica said:


    Honestly, never really. I tried once when it first came out, but the group disbanded because it couldn't find a tank. Never really bothered trying since. ​​

    My suggestion would be to get some experience with it before you try to design a "training version" of it. After a few runs you might start to see why some of your thoughts on the lair aren't really relevant, and why there isn't a training version needed ( take it from someone with a whole lot of experience with the subject matter ). You can use the Cosmic HQ channel to help you find a group.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    How much have you actually run TA?
    Honestly, never really. I tried once when it first came out, but the group disbanded because it couldn't find a tank. Never really bothered trying since. As someone who hasn't run it before, trust me when I say that there's a barrier that exists between older group content (which it is now) and players having no experience with it. "Git gud/know the fight" is a thing, and nobody wants to be the person that drags the group down in smaller settings because everybody's performance is important for success.
    ac3.jpg
    Tragic​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Also not the reality of the situation at all. Nearly all the pros I know who run TA love to take new people in there and show them around, no "git gud" or "know the fight" as far as the eye can see - again, this is CO not WoW or Tera or whatever. Only people I've seen tard-raging have been newbies themselves. The only real barrier to entry that I've seen to TA is events, and the cosmic order getting messed up and not leaving enough time for a training run in between Cosmics. Oh, and people going around telling people that TA is super hard ( and sometimes the people saying that haven't even run the place :o ).
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    I had a fun thought while pondering Lemurian Invasion. Make a proper Cosmic where you NEED to have people focus on massacring the minions or the boss gets stupid buffed. Kinda like the way Nightmare Colossi, and High Noon fights work, but with it as a creature skill not a device you shut down.

    STO has several fights where the boss will get annoying buffs if you don't kill it's minions. And at least some of those fights will have the minions respawn eventually. Which kinda reminds me of the way Lemurian Invasion works.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    I had a fun thought while pondering Lemurian Invasion. Make a proper Cosmic where you NEED to have people focus on massacring the minions or the boss gets stupid buffed. Kinda like the way Nightmare Colossi, and High Noon fights work, but with it as a creature skill not a device you shut down.

    STO has several fights where the boss will get annoying buffs if you don't kill it's minions. And at least some of those fights will have the minions respawn eventually. Which kinda reminds me of the way Lemurian Invasion works.

    I like that.

    High Noon is a really great model for what I'm talking about, so anything based on that gets a s( ^ _ ^)=b from me.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    spinnytop said:

    I had a fun thought while pondering Lemurian Invasion. Make a proper Cosmic where you NEED to have people focus on massacring the minions or the boss gets stupid buffed. Kinda like the way Nightmare Colossi, and High Noon fights work, but with it as a creature skill not a device you shut down.

    STO has several fights where the boss will get annoying buffs if you don't kill it's minions. And at least some of those fights will have the minions respawn eventually. Which kinda reminds me of the way Lemurian Invasion works.

    I like that.

    High Noon is a really great model for what I'm talking about, so anything based on that gets a s( ^ _ ^)=b from me.
    I actually find High Noon to be pretty uninteresting. And Lemurian invasion is painfully slow with the way it works. It's also the one most folks don't run unless they need the token.

    There's a reason the tank and spank ones are more popular.

    I'm not sure adding adds to Cosmics would make them any more fun for the general population. I'm NOT down with catering that high level content to hybrids.

    Also I agree that NEW Cosmic content would be nice. Fighting the same ones over and over again has gotten old to the point that I haven't logged on in ages.

    Adding NEW Content that takes Hybrids into mind might be a good idea. I'm just not sure that should be COSMIC level content.
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 800 Arc User
    Lemurian Invasion isn’t slow because of the setup, really. It would be a fine alert if it wasn’t tuned for vehicles, and if it didn’t have 30 minutes of cutscenes.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    jonesing4 said:

    Lemurian Invasion isn’t slow because of the setup, really. It would be a fine alert if it wasn’t tuned for vehicles, and if it didn’t have 30 minutes of cutscenes.

    I don't know. I find the must kill this many mobs mechanic before you can attack a boss the team would ordinarily kill in less then 3 minutes to be annoying. I actually don't mind the cutscenes.
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 800 Arc User
    Fair enough. I like (usually, in other content) the mix of mobs & boss. Feels more true to the genre (smash through a bunch of Doombots to get to Dr. Doom, etc.), and gives some variety of attacks. I have some characters with awesome AoE set-ups, but they’re not very fun to use in a Soul Siphon alert; others are single target nukers, but it’s more of a pain for them to go through dozens of enemies. Having a mix of both eases some monotony, and lets you use different attack sequences.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    darqaura2 said:

    There's a reason the tank and spank ones are more popular.

    You mean like Gravitar where lag spikes are your only real threat? :p
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    darqaura2 said:

    There's a reason the tank and spank ones are more popular.

    You mean like Gravitar where lag spikes are your only real threat? :p
    Gravitar you can actually lose. The only way to lose Lemurian Invasion is to get bored and quit.

    The big reason the 'tank and spank' Rampages are more popular is because they're fast and don't have stupidly annoying things like chasing down Exocets which for some incomprehensible reason are preventing the Giant Sky Cannon from shooting.
  • Ignoring the length issue with TA, I'm not sure how you create a puggable version without making everything enormously weaker (something like 1/2 to 1/3 the damage), because pug teams might not have tanks or healers (squishy teams already fail at cybermind, but as long as you have either a healer or someone reasonably durable you can handle it).

    Not sure you could make a PUG'able one like cybermind (and even there you want some healing). But think more unprepared peeps, learners, or group of randoms (that fit the role). Think newbies doing F/I level

    I know it won't happen (and Spinny hates it and will rile against it always!) but I'll +1 the idea of TA-lite. Taking max 1/2 health as Damage from missed wire-frame/bomb/block/TA-stacks+explosion would teach me the mechanics. With a less than ideal heals/group this is still devastating. One or two less adds for each boss (and less knock/stun power) would help the OT, overall power reduction of boss for the Main.

    By sharing cooldowns/counters (and reducing TA-lite rewards) would keep people from farming both, and make people move on (and cool kids can still train new ones in TA-main)

    I know most people don't see it but .. perhaps I want to run with my friends .. who all stink .. rather than stinking with the cool kids ?

    While were at it, 3-Man TA too. Main, Healer, DPS. No adds, for those light days. (I forgot about T-stacks .. those would need to be fixed)


    .. something about High noon ...

    Honestly the preferable model. Miss medusa's bombs ect, you get a damage debuff. (or some Bosses get buffs, or Bosses give Reistance Debuffs to tank). No more be there until you are perfect (perfect-enough), you can stink your way through it, but it takes you a lot longer. Better yet add stick and carrot, some checks give you buffs!

    Block everything every time or else is boring .. new meta please!

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Not sure you could make a PUG'able one like cybermind (and even there you want some healing). But think more unprepared peeps, learners, or group of randoms (that fit the role). Think newbies doing F/I level

    All the fights are already beatable by newbies, it's just that figuring out how to deal with all five fights in a row takes a long time (an all-newbie team would likely take 2-3 hours for a full run). One of the virtues of the Warzone setup is that you can just decide to go beat up a single boss and get rewards, no need to bash through all of them, and the timers are fairly generous (to unlock Eido you basically need to be able to drop a boss in 5m. The actual boss fight timers are 10m).
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Getting killed has no penalty. I have a hard time coming up with a list of more forgiving games than CO when it comes to death penalties. Dying in TA just makes things take longer.

    I don't see how you can remove role requirements while teaching the mechanics that require those roles.

    If the argument is to just make a new alert for pugs because there are not enough of those...there are easier ways to make that happen than trying to transform TA.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    I know most people don't see it but .. perhaps I want to run with my friends .. who all stink .. rather than stinking with the cool kids ?

    What's stopping you? The biggest question asked among us evil tryhard elites is "why don't these people just start doing the content without us? why do they always wait for us to start it up?".

    All of us had to start out as newbies in TA. It's funny... we're supposedly the elitists... and yet we have no problem going into a place and looking just awful failing repeatedly just to learn the place ( and have no complaints about taking other new people in as well ). Then you got the supposed casuals who refuse to even step foot in there unless they have a group that is guaranteed to succeed. Something seems backwards there ;) The elitists don't mind failing, and the casuals keep saying "failing isn't fun". That sure doesn't reflect any real elitists I saw in games like Wow and Tera!

    tl/dr - get your friends together and go do it if you want, nothing is stopping you.
    darqaura2 said:


    I'm not sure adding adds to Cosmics would make them any more fun for the general population. I'm NOT down with catering that high level content to hybrids.

    Adding NEW Content that takes Hybrids into mind might be a good idea. I'm just not sure that should be COSMIC level content.

    Hybrids in this context are just really "tanks-lite" or "healers-lite". Since there's zero reason to just be a dps in hybrid, then that's really not something you can cater to. Given that, any mechanics that would cater to a hybrid would also cater to tanks and healers meaning that ultimately you're not making content specific to hybrids, you're just making content that they can do as well without feeling useless. If we have enough tanks and healers on hand that all these extra positions could be filled by the more specialized role, well then that's a good day at cosmics I tell ya what!

    I'm not sure why it being C O S M I C level content is an issue. Do hybrids not deserve to feel cool and useful at cosmics rather than just "we wish you were something else"?
    kamokami said:

    If the argument is to just make a new alert for pugs because there are not enough of those...there are easier ways to make that happen than trying to transform TA.

    Totally. There's ways to train players for end game mechanics that would take a ton less work and time. Of course, if that content was the kind of thing that could actually teach people what they need to know I'm sure we would see the same complaints that TA gets ( and they would be just as silly as they are now ).
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    TA
    is
    EASY
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User

    darqaura2 said:

    There's a reason the tank and spank ones are more popular.

    You mean like Gravitar where lag spikes are your only real threat? :p
    Gravitar you can actually lose. The only way to lose Lemurian Invasion is to get bored and quit.

    The big reason the 'tank and spank' Rampages are more popular is because they're fast and don't have stupidly annoying things like chasing down Exocets which for some incomprehensible reason are preventing the Giant Sky Cannon from shooting.
    Thanks for explaining my reasoning better than I did. LOL
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    avianos said:

    TA
    is
    EASY

    Yup!
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    I know most people don't see it but .. perhaps I want to run with my friends .. who all stink .. rather than stinking with the cool kids ?

    What's stopping you? The biggest question asked among us evil tryhard elites is "why don't these people just start doing the content without us? why do they always wait for us to start it up?".

    All of us had to start out as newbies in TA. It's funny... we're supposedly the elitists... and yet we have no problem going into a place and looking just awful failing repeatedly just to learn the place ( and have no complaints about taking other new people in as well ). Then you got the supposed casuals who refuse to even step foot in there unless they have a group that is guaranteed to succeed. Something seems backwards there ;) The elitists don't mind failing, and the casuals keep saying "failing isn't fun". That sure doesn't reflect any real elitists I saw in games like Wow and Tera!

    tl/dr - get your friends together and go do it if you want, nothing is stopping you.
    darqaura2 said:


    I'm not sure adding adds to Cosmics would make them any more fun for the general population. I'm NOT down with catering that high level content to hybrids.

    Adding NEW Content that takes Hybrids into mind might be a good idea. I'm just not sure that should be COSMIC level content.

    Hybrids in this context are just really "tanks-lite" or "healers-lite". Since there's zero reason to just be a dps in hybrid, then that's really not something you can cater to. Given that, any mechanics that would cater to a hybrid would also cater to tanks and healers meaning that ultimately you're not making content specific to hybrids, you're just making content that they can do as well without feeling useless. If we have enough tanks and healers on hand that all these extra positions could be filled by the more specialized role, well then that's a good day at cosmics I tell ya what!

    I'm not sure why it being C O S M I C level content is an issue. Do hybrids not deserve to feel cool and useful at cosmics rather than just "we wish you were something else"?
    kamokami said:

    If the argument is to just make a new alert for pugs because there are not enough of those...there are easier ways to make that happen than trying to transform TA.

    Totally. There's ways to train players for end game mechanics that would take a ton less work and time. Of course, if that content was the kind of thing that could actually teach people what they need to know I'm sure we would see the same complaints that TA gets ( and they would be just as silly as they are now ).
    They can make NEW cosmic content. I would not be if they simply tack it on to existing content. Adds are not really something we need at existing cosmic content, and I'm not sure the general population would enjoy that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Keep in mind, my suggestion isn't "add adds", that's just one idea to fulfill the suggestion which is: Give hybrids something to do at cosmics. Note that I'm also generally talking about tanky hybrids, so the suggestion could also be interpreted as: add more tanking positions to cosmics.

    If you don't like adds then just forget about them, I'm not married to the idea. If you have a different idea that could achieve the suggestion I'd love to hear it :)

    As far as what the general population enjoys, it's clear they enjoy playing tanks going by the number of extra ones that show up at cosmics. I think there's a better solution there than telling them to alt, or just leaving them to pretend they're dps.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    If I'm using Tanya Wilson I'll run hybrid at Cosmics because I know she isn't up to the challenge of tanking a Cosmic. Everything else I run her as Tank. And sometimes I actually tank things. :D
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    I would love for hybrid builds to be more useful at Cosmic battles, honestly. Allows people to use some stuff like melee and ranged powers to their advantage. Such as a melee attacker for Kiga but if tombs aren't close, you use a ranged attack to destroy it.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Such as a melee attacker for Kiga but if tombs aren't close, you use a ranged attack to destroy it.

    Nothing preventing you from doing that right now, it's just that your ranged attack winds up kinda sucking compared to an actual ranged attacker.
  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    True true. I actually used to use a hybrid Invulnerability passive build mixed with electricity and might at a point in time and it did well enough at Cosmics. Then I just decided to run an actual viable role such as a DPS or a Tank at Cosmics.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying.

    Well, useful dealing with adds often involves moving them away from the main fight, and thus means less dealing with the annoyances of the main fight.

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea.

    It doesn't take a lot to hold aggro if other people aren't attacking whatever it is.

    This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    Generally the strength of hybrids is their ability to function unsupported. If you don't want to be durable, play a dps.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying. Also wut the deuce is "tuff dps?" Tough DPS? :P

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea. This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    The idea is for characters who can break off hitting the boss and kill(not tank) the ads. :p
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying. Also wut the deuce is "tuff dps?" Tough DPS? :P

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea. This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    The idea is for characters who can break off hitting the boss and kill(not tank) the ads. :p
    Most of the time dps will be better at that. Hybrid is better at true soloing, but if you're using more than one person to deal with adds, it's going to either be 'all dps' or '1 self-sufficient tank/tanky hybrid, others dps'.

    When I'm solo tanking Gravitar, I normally change my tank's role to hybrid, because I rarely need the extra threat, and the extra heal strength is more valuable than the damage resistance bonus from tank role, but not sure that really is what people want out of hybrids.
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