OK, so Sneaky Stabber, where Gloaming Cut fills 10% of your Stealth meter just by using it, without killing the target, is not a good Feat for PvP?
It's much too difficult to land.
Compare it to Threatening Rush, a similar sort of power the GWFs have. Threatening Rush activates immediately and lunges quite a distance towards the target. GC, on the other hand, has the worthless "draw-back" animation where the TR leisurely pulls back both arms rearwards in preparation for a double strike, and then lunges in a very slow manner for barely 20 feet.
The thing is, as I've mentioned, they've designed melees simply in the wrong way in this game, so gaining and maintaining stable range of attack is fairly difficult. If you want to hit GC, the most stable way is to track your target, get in as close as possible and use it from zero-range, like just smothering him your character visually. You know that will hit.
But then another problem rises -- even if you're stealthed and boosted in movement speed, GC is slow to activate, and you're detected if you go into melee range. If the other guy is a HR or a CW, all he has to do is move around while repeated clicking his button for any CC or Careful Attack. The moment your TR shows up visible while attempting GC, you're either CCd or hit with Careful Attack and the barrage of bullchi* DoTs to follow.
So, in order to avoid that, and still land a GC, what you want to do is land the tip of the attack as it comes out. What you want is the enemy to see you just when GC lands on them, and then you roll away immediately to disappear.
Naturally, that's hard to do. You have to keep yourself in attack range for the slow and short GC attack, so you're exposed to all sorts of random AoE attacks the other guy is going to use.
I've seen some TRs really use it masterfully in normal PuG grade games, but the difficulty of landing it sharply rises as your enemies get smarter, and even in PuG grade there are plenty of smart people. It usually hits a moment where eventually you begin to wonder if the effort you've put into your GC is worth the actual output it brings.
To be fair, its still manageable in most PuG level games, so you can stil have a lot of fun with it. But admittedly its a mode of attack which doesn't synergize well with the current trend of TR tactics.
Due to recent experiences against Stealthed MIs, I was thinking next time I should re-slot a melee At-Will in place of one of the missile types. when there are TRs on the other team. My WK could see the little sod, and he was thwacking away, then tumbled backwards out of range again and missiled me as my steath had broken. Disheartening Strike is too slow, and once I have used up Cloud of Steel, I don't have much - I'll have to go with Path of Blades and bear the shame!
It's usually the stealthed TRs that give me most trouble. I have killed HR and GF one-on-one, but I suspect they were no more geared or experienced at their class than I am as a TR. I'm really a DC player, but I really enjoy the TR as well. And as all my Leadership Mules are hitting level 60, I've been taking them out for a ride.
Cheers!
TR vs TR fight, at least the traditional one which doesn't involve BI gear or PotB, is a "who peels the other guy first" fight. It is intense and a lot of fun, but requires a very sharp learning curve -- especially with a lot of choices you need to make, from at which timing you want to lash out and attack, upto even stuff like which feats you're gonna use.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Why is Vengeance's Pursuit with 5 ranks of Determined Pursuit not good for PvP, against CW's, for example?
The thrown dagger of Vengeance's Pursuit has a 100% chance to Interrupt your target, and Reactivating briefly slows them by 40%.
So, just from reading this, it makes me think it might be useful for stopping a CW casting until you can maybe do some Crits and DoTs on the obnoxious swine!
LOL
But then, I don't have any experience of trying to use it.
Would the Slow effect stop his Teleport Dodge?
~
As the single, the only TR who used to fight with a build entirely centered around VP, I will now engage in a manner of conversational method of enlightment developed by Socrates.
I will ask you questions, and while you are thinking about the answers, you will reach enlightment.
(1) You throw VP.
(2) You teleport to the CW.
...what next?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well, the teleport bit will probably make me visible - don't know if it breaks stealth or not, but I'll be close enough to be seen, so I'd probably save that in case I get CC'd.
But I'd say I'd hit them with Hateful Knives feated with Seething Knives to refill some stealth (assuming you have full AP), roll past them, hit them with Duelist's Flurry and a stealthed Lashing Blade and that should finish them off.
But I'd try marking them for Vengeance in Stealth first, then use Cloud of Steel, then Bait and Switch, then Shadow Strike to stun them, then the teleport and then Duelist's Flurry while they are stunned?
I can't have Lashing Blade AND Vengeance's Pursuit without dropping either Bait & Switch or Shadow Strike.
Am I any where in the same Time Zone as warm?
Thing is, I often get frozen out for more than long enough to be completely melted, and CWs seem to be immune to Freeze and Stun. I think they'd probably Freeze me with an At-Will while I am trying to finish them off.
By the way, I just got the Skulker's set for my Halfling MI, but I was thinking of trying a Hybrid with my Dragonborn WK.
Please save me the pain and tell me if I'll be wasting my Zen:
Yep. You guess it correctly... and that's all you need to know about VP.
You teleport to the enemy = your CCd and dead.
Things could be different if the TR actually had a CC... but nope. The TR has two CCs you can use outside of stealth - smoke bomb and Dazing Strike - and both are too slow to land. Your target breaks from the stun in less than a second, so you teleport, try something but the enemy recovers and dodge/teleports. And from that point, you're caught in a retaliatory CC and dead.
VP teleport doesn't break you free of CCs fast enough, slow and unreliable, and what's worse is the bullchi* Icy Rays -- you can't break free from it with VP. It's probably the ONE CC you need to break free from most, and it doesn't work.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
These things look great on paper, like my Hybrid idea, but if it does not work in PvP because the game code is all screwed, making some classes immune when they should have reasonable resistance, and making other classes hyper-sensitive when they should have reasonable resistance and faster response time, newbies like me have to rely on people who have tried it all and copy one of their builds.
Did your Vengeance TR ever work well at all, and then got nerfed? Or was it always too risky?
These things look great on paper, like my Hybrid idea, but if it does not work in PvP because the game code is all screwed, making some classes immune when they should have reasonable resistance, and making other classes hyper-sensitive when they should have reasonable resistance and faster response time, newbies like me have to rely on people who have tried it all and copy one of their builds.
Did your Vengeance TR ever work well at all, and then got nerfed? Or was it always too risky?
Cheers!
It worked well on PuG level.
After meeting sicarius and getting totally destroyed (although, considering whom I duelled, I'd have been destroyed whether it was this build or that. Considering the difference in skill, experience and equipment, no chance at all. Was a fool to have walked into such an obvious trap lol) -- I was on the verge of tweaking the build so it worked better against higher level threats. Shifting around stats, trying different feat sets, etc etc.. but during my experimentation they killed VP.
Now, before a series of changes, VP used to have 0 recharge. VP also used to stun around 1.5 seconds.
So before the changes, my build was set on maximizing the damage of a combo move which worked like this:
During that time the GWF was the most powerful opponent on the field, and I tweaked this build well enough to meet a similarly geared GWF and take it down. It went well and it was a lot easier for me to fight the GWFs those days, because I could basically observe a pattern which went:
(1) stealth, VP, some ranged attacks... VP stun-DazingStrike combos, burst damage
(2) When GWF enters Unstoppable, hide, throw VP
(3) When Unstoppable ends, VP-DazingStrike combo again
(4) rinse and repeat
What I was lacking was straight-gear level and better stat distribution, and needed more fights to test new tweaks on. But then bam!
Suddenly, Vengeance's Pursuit got a recharge time of 16 seconds. The only thing which kept the power still feasible, was now gone.
So build is dead.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
(ps) Those days were also hard, and very hostile against anything that did not involve "permas" whether it be true permas or semi-permas. Most of the concepts weren't even invented then.
Nowadays many TRs have an open minded approach, so we're able to see builds like pandora's WK perma, or rustlord's reflect-based combat TR. In those days, when anyone would mention such a thing, the first thing you'd see was the first 5 pages of the thread full of ridicule and "challenges". About one-third would laugh at the futileness, another one-third would cite the "Book of Viability" and the final one-third would do the "Chant of Never-Works-in-Premade Level". Nowdays normal TRs have grown strong enough to not really care those elitist thugs say, but things were very different back then.
IMO, the only person they left alone despite not using the 'orthodox' build methods, was todesfalle, since a lot of people respected him, those thugs wouldn't touch him. But if there was any newbie or any new person asking around or talking about different builds... you get the idea.
So basically in my case, I had to build everything down from scratch, so the early testing and the later days the build is quite different. I did have some pride that among all the builds out there, it was the most unique, and the most different, and actually fast paced and fun enough... and that worked - at least worked well enough to enjoy in normal level games. It would have been developed further, and there was room for more improvement, before they pulled the cord on VP. Such a shame.
I still have old videos stored in Youtube, if you might be interested in what it was like.
...and that was like 8~9 months ago. You can see that despite VP was considered about the crappiest encounter of all, it still used to mean something as a 0-recharge gap-closer. It made the fight very exciting and fast paced, teleporting around everywhere, going in and out, confusing the enemies.
After the recharge time of 16 seconds, it became clinically dead.
*sniff*
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
IMO, the only person they left alone despite not using the 'orthodox' build methods, was todesfalle, since a lot of people respected him, those thugs wouldn't touch him.
Ye ye, and here we go again with all that "elitism thug" thing, aren't we? The reason why people didn't "touch" todesfaelle was that he didn't claim his build was Highend PVP ready - he just posted his build and said: "Hey look, I'm running fine with that" - also at the beginning his build was more PvE oriented than PvP. So "the elitism thugs" - how you like to say - never really checked his build.
For example
And that is basically the main pros and cons of playing as a Stealth Rogue boiled down small points. This build is by no means build to be intended for PVP play and is mainly used for PVE settings.
But if you run around the forums and yelling out loud: "YOO GUYS CHECK OUT MY UBER - HIGHEND PVP READY PREMADE DESTROYER BUILD!!!111!1!" - ofc people will check it out and ofc people who play alot pvp will check it out AND OFC people that knows whats going on pvp will check it out. And then they will point it out why that build isn't that much an highend pvp reader premade destroyer build. That has nothing todo with FotM or elitism.
For example:
As of Module 3, this only alternate Combat Build that works in high-end PvP.
So what does High-End PVP means? Well for most of the "elitism thug" pvp community it means: Scheduled Rainbow Premade against another Rainbow Premade. And not solo/duo/triple/whatever-qing or pugstomping pve guild premades. It is a made up and planned match between two groups - including rules.
Thats the reason why people are point out certain builds but not Todesfaelle's one. Because some d00ds claiming things they did but they actually never did.
Yes thats the reason why - that has nothing todo with "elitism". You always act like the pvp community is a bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ignorants... I don't actually know who the ignorant is.
Oh and for the build discussion itself: ofc there is no shame in testing new builds out and post them on the forums for feedback and opinions. But don't claim a build highend pvp when you actually never tested it in Highend PvP.
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TRs not running ITC are food to everyone. Even PvE mobs.
ITC, gives you more damage time on the mobs since you can stand in red
ITC, gives you escapes from players since you dont get CC'd or killed and with it you can easily go back to stealth.
ITC > ALL
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
TRs not running ITC are food to everyone. Even PvE mobs.
ITC, gives you more damage time on the mobs since you can stand in red
ITC, gives you escapes from players since you dont get CC'd or killed and with it you can easily go back to stealth.
ITC > ALL
My WK executioner begs to differ. When he needs to get out of red, he's usually ready to refresh the crit-hit on his disheartening strike anyway. Then he can dash back in and flurry again.
Every dragon is a great success, no ITC necessary. Not a perma nor a PvP build, just saying that WK is not anything close to fodder for PvE mobs. They're actually quite good at switching between add-management and boss duty as the situation requires. They do need to mind their dodges very carefully though.
ITC is more needed on a TR that is 100% melee, because dodging away from your target is all downtime. But if you can switch between ranged and melee at will, there is no downtime.
100% ranged WK doesn't do great against single targets and is better in a multi-target fight because you run out of CoS charges and might not be ready to throw Disheartening again because the crit bleed is still ticking. If all your encounters are also cooling down, you're just kinda standing there looking at the dragon like a goober. But when there are adds, you get to zip around trying to tag everything with a crit bleed. It's more of a support TR than a pure striker, but a neat variant.
whats the matter with u guys, MI vs WK.... pfff
DIFFERENT BUILDS---> DO NOT COMPARE
its like comparing GF with GWF
All I have to say is this, and you ll find out that it applies to any 'VS'
1 Keep your mind on HOW you want to play
2 Ask yourself if u can guess the DOWNSIDES OF THE WAY YOU LIKE (there ALWAYS ARE DOWNSIDES)
3 Check the feats and imagine yourself being 14k or 15k or even 20k gs and see if you can have the ratings you want where u want them
4 Untill u reach your goal play to be better EVERY TIME no matter the dying ratio, trust me if u focus u can be very good before that planned gs , no matter the build
5 Don't be disapointed before u reach that gs you've planned , NOT EVER
6 If there is a class on point that u cant deal there most definetly is a class that u can and there is another class on your team that's better suited from the guy on the point , SWITCH
7 Games are won mostly by talking to teammates and them talking to u .Power on winning a game is not on the build
8 If u want to be super strong and own everyone in pvp either
a:go find ppls lower than u in icewind and kill em
or
b:uninstall game there is no such class in neverwinter
P.S.1 If anyone find anything insulting or take personal offence in the above , please go for option 8-b
P.S.2 Have u ever tried to send a monster GF on enemy point and leave a WK and a MI on mid? trust me if they work well together (we're talking perma's now) NOTHING CAN CAP MID
P.S.3 There is nothing wrong in stepping out of the cap and keep an MI on it .YOU KEEP HIM FROM OTHER PPLS where he ll do a lot more harm .Me personaly if i find a good WK i leave point and then come back to cap it again, in the meantime I get 2-3 kilz. If i stay there my team might not be able to cap mid.
P.S.4 If my memory serves me right, Sicarius is a WK. NUFF SAID
Oh and for the build discussion itself: ofc there is no shame in testing new builds out and post them on the forums for feedback and opinions. But don't claim a build highend pvp when you actually never tested it in Highend PvP.
Very curiously, you're making it sound as if the elitist thugs would leave you alone if someone didn't claim "fuh fuh my build can beat even the best!.
Except in most cases the truth is the friggin ego-maniacs never leave you alone whatever you do. Same with me, same with any other person who ever tried to bring up something different for the discussion.
In my case I never claimed it was premade level. All I did was mention it was something different under development. From day1 the feks started antagonizing me without reason, and despite not even once did I claim it was a build for the (*snort*) your all-so-precious "highend" the insults and name-callings began.
So why don't you stop pretending the highend folk only lash out in defense or something, because both you know, I know, and everyone who has suffered those pricks over the years know very well that's now how those feks operate.
They are basically jealousy-driven bunch of pathological ego maniacs who don't suffer even for a second, someone or something else gaining any kind of attention over them, with the constant need to preach to the rest of the players that they are the best, rest are nabs, and every nab should listen to what they say because they're important.
In retrospect, it used to work that way in this forums, but not anymore. So you can go on claiming that people like me have offended the pricks first and make it sound like some sort of neighborhood watch those thugs are doing, except everyone knows its not.
I've never claimed my build worked in the high-end, I've merely stated it can work well in PuG level, and there is room for improvement. I did mention that the so-called 'premade level' is like only 1%? 5%? of the entire PvP population and people should freely discuss their ideas without the need to please someone else's warped notion of 'viability'. Before that I used to post some interesting things discovered about different powers, and I also invented the term "semi-perma" and "combat tr", which now everyone uses. I also predicted the use of smoke bomb would rise, which happened as it did. What were the elitist thugs doing all that time?
Pissing on one's path all along the way. That's what they do.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thanks, kweassa, there's a lot of experience and insight in those two posts from you.
And I have to agree that some of the most obnoxious in-game chat comes from PvP Obsessives; in my experience, it's usually those who are under-geared and can't really play.
The favourite of my characters was always my Halfling TR, character number 6, I think. She was so much fun to play and could tank in Cloak Tower Dailies and skirmishes up to level 20-odd. But then some nerfs came in. I played her up to level 30 or so and then she became just another Leadership Mule.
But I recently geared her up with Skulker's armour, Spymasters weapons and +243 Recovery Blue gear and Rank 7 Silveries and now I have to get all the boons etc and start doing level 60 PvP to get the Profound gear. I am using the Siege of Neverwinter for practice and she does OK, given my slow reflexes and lack of experience.
My first character was the DC as my friends and I started at the same time and formed a Guild, and we had Three Tricksters and a Wizard. As there was no Druid, I went for DC to help the party. And I invested so much time, Zen and AD in her gear, Artifacts and Companions, I neglected my other classes. But now they have hit level 60, I'm taking them all out for a spin. It's more fun than taking the DCs into IWD or ToD.
Main problem is getting the Zen for re-specs to try different builds - I'd rather spend the AD on enchants and gear! I am not obsessive about PvP - as long as I can survive and do "OK" by winning 1/2 my matches, I can do fine in PvE as well. The Leader Board does not matter to me, but the PvP Campaign does.
100% ranged WK doesn't do great against single targets and is better in a multi-target fight because you run out of CoS charges and might not be ready to throw Disheartening again because the crit bleed is still ticking.
But when there are adds, you get to zip around trying to tag everything with a crit bleed. It's more of a support TR than a pure striker, but a neat variant.
Yes, I do that as well!
My DC Dwarf DO War Priest does it with Brand of the Sun for DoT damage and rebuilding Divinity.
My DC Tiefling AC Healer does it with Astral Seal so every hit heals the attacker slightly and AS also has a slight DoT effect (maybe to do with boons or Feats)
My Warlock does it with Curse.
And my WK does it with Disheartening Strike.
I suspect my GF could do it with Mark, but not toatally sure.
There are a lot of similarities in the rationale of using certain powers between the classes, and I noticed this with Disheartening Strike the other day.
CoS you want to whack all on the same Target, but DS you can spread the love a little bit.
After the recharge time of 16 seconds, it became clinically dead.
*sniff*
I really enjoyed watching those, shame abuot the Nerf.
But you might want to leave a note on YouTube that VP has been nerfed and does not work like this any more, or you'll get a lot of upset newbies paying for re-specs and finding out the hard way.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Except in most cases the truth is the friggin ego-maniacs never leave you alone whatever you do. Same with me, same with any other person who ever tried to bring up something different for the discussion.
Unfortunately, there are a few people who if you so much as breathed a hint of trying to PvP on anything but a FotM build, would have nothing to offer to the discussion other than to say it does not work, and that the poster is spreading misinformation by suggesting that anything other than FotM should or could be used under any circumstances. (I could try to link examples but I don't know what might have survived forum... uhm... tidying.)
You didn't even have to say "whisperknife" three times for them to appear and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all over you, once would do.
I don't PvP at high level (or ever, these days). I should not ever be matched with page 1 people (though I have been). If I am matched with high level PvPers, I am going to be slaughtered whether I play FotM or not. That's about all there is to that.
My biggest problem with VP is the mark doesn't last long enough....
I'm OK with a 16 sec CD, but the mark should stick for 30 seconds, put a very easy to read "X" on their back, and it should hit as hard as lashing blade with a slightly longer lasting daze.
I tried using the ability for a while, but it was too much work to keep active on a the target & it was too hard to see when the mark vanished.
whats the matter with u guys, MI vs WK.... pfff
DIFFERENT BUILDS---> DO NOT COMPARE
its like comparing GF with GWF
All I have to say is this, and you ll find out that it applies to any 'VS'
1 Keep your mind on HOW you want to play
2 Ask yourself if u can guess the DOWNSIDES OF THE WAY YOU LIKE (there ALWAYS ARE DOWNSIDES)
3 Check the feats and imagine yourself being 14k or 15k or even 20k gs and see if you can have the ratings you want where u want them
4 Untill u reach your goal play to be better EVERY TIME no matter the dying ratio, trust me if u focus u can be very good before that planned gs , no matter the build
5 Don't be disapointed before u reach that gs you've planned , NOT EVER
6 If there is a class on point that u cant deal there most definetly is a class that u can and there is another class on your team that's better suited from the guy on the point , SWITCH
7 Games are won mostly by talking to teammates and them talking to u .Power on winning a game is not on the build
8 If u want to be super strong and own everyone in pvp either
a:go find ppls lower than u in icewind and kill em
or
b:uninstall game there is no such class in neverwinter
P.S.1 If anyone find anything insulting or take personal offence in the above , please go for option 8-b
P.S.2 Have u ever tried to send a monster GF on enemy point and leave a WK and a MI on mid? trust me if they work well together (we're talking perma's now) NOTHING CAN CAP MID
P.S.3 There is nothing wrong in stepping out of the cap and keep an MI on it .YOU KEEP HIM FROM OTHER PPLS where he ll do a lot more harm .Me personaly if i find a good WK i leave point and then come back to cap it again, in the meantime I get 2-3 kilz. If i stay there my team might not be able to cap mid.
P.S.4 If my memory serves me right, Sicarius is a WK. NUFF SAID
I'm not a WK, Thats my only response to this thread
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
My WK executioner begs to differ. When he needs to get out of red, he's usually ready to refresh the crit-hit on his disheartening strike anyway. Then he can dash back in and flurry again.
Every dragon is a great success, no ITC necessary. Not a perma nor a PvP build, just saying that WK is not anything close to fodder for PvE mobs. They're actually quite good at switching between add-management and boss duty as the situation requires. They do need to mind their dodges very carefully though.
ITC is more needed on a TR that is 100% melee, because dodging away from your target is all downtime. But if you can switch between ranged and melee at will, there is no downtime.
100% ranged WK doesn't do great against single targets and is better in a multi-target fight because you run out of CoS charges and might not be ready to throw Disheartening again because the crit bleed is still ticking. If all your encounters are also cooling down, you're just kinda standing there looking at the dragon like a goober. But when there are adds, you get to zip around trying to tag everything with a crit bleed. It's more of a support TR than a pure striker, but a neat variant.
If you can press W and aim your mouse, you're already PvE capable. How this even became a point of discussion is still baffling.
WK and MI are both viable for PvE. There aren't many builds in the game that aren't PvE viable. Then again, it's one thing to be capable and another thing to actually be good at it. MI's damage is simply higher than WK. The reason for this is because MI isn't throwing butter knives halfway across the dungeon because they're A) Too busy watching stealth meter to time dodges, Not restricted from melee and C) Actually pull off the perma-stealth role.
Have you noticed how much damage DF puts out on dungeon mobs? It puts out a lot more when it crits. You know how you reap the full benefit of crit DF? Not dodging in the middle of it because lol I'm about to run out of stealth. I'd even dare to say DS might be able to close the gap on this but you'd be too busy fishing for crits while the MI is already on his third DF and wondering why you're not doing any damage.
If we wanted add management, we'd get a CW. Unfortunately we wanted a boss killer and mistakingly invited a WK.
Don't get me wrong. I played WK since it came out. I love the idea of the spec. However, it's just not practical. Throwing kitchen knives isn't very intimidating or threatening. Unless they're mobs. Then again, you have to be mentally incapacitated to suck at dodging mobs.
If you can press W and aim your mouse, you're already PvE capable. How this even became a point of discussion is still baffling.
WK and MI are both viable for PvE. There aren't many builds in the game that aren't PvE viable. Then again, it's one thing to be capable and another thing to actually be good at it. MI's damage is simply higher than WK. The reason for this is because MI isn't throwing butter knives halfway across the dungeon because they're A) Too busy watching stealth meter to time dodges, Not restricted from melee and C) Actually pull off the perma-stealth role.
Have you noticed how much damage DF puts out on dungeon mobs? It puts out a lot more when it crits. You know how you reap the full benefit of crit DF? Not dodging in the middle of it because lol I'm about to run out of stealth. I'd even dare to say DS might be able to close the gap on this but you'd be too busy fishing for crits while the MI is already on his third DF and wondering why you're not doing any damage.
If we wanted add management, we'd get a CW. Unfortunately we wanted a boss killer and mistakingly invited a WK.
Don't get me wrong. I played WK since it came out. I love the idea of the spec. However, it's just not practical. Throwing kitchen knives isn't very intimidating or threatening. Unless they're mobs. Then again, you have to be mentally incapacitated to suck at dodging mobs.
+1
Also, PvE-wise , its stupid not to use DF
download ACT and check which is the main damage ALL trs have
If u dont want to do it i ll tell u
Its the DF BLEED DAMAGE, so... U HAVE TO STACK IT
In a boss more than 45% of your damage comes from the bleed, so IF u are at the boss ,MI or WK, (even if u are a scou-tree and your pvp main at-will is sly) , IF YOU ARE AT THE BOSS AND DONT USE FLURRY U DONT DO NOTHING DPS-WISE.
There are some exceptions of course , there always are, I just havent found one yet.
As far as soloing bosses is concerned, i think that WK is a hell of a viable option, but u have to be able to perma just from SS and BaS as u wont have time to dodge in a place just for the stealth bonus u just sud dodge when u see aoe on your feet.BTW i think WK is more relaxing in soloing bosses, not that fast in killing the boss, but more relaxing
P.S. On a gud build when u stack DF bleed u can get hopelully 10k per sec. that gives u bonus in life steal and sustain u in a way that u couldnt imagine if u just play with daggers
for a MI most of its damage comes from DF, but as a WK you have the advantage of range, I don't use DF and yet I kill enemy groups faster than with my MI because I attack many enemies at the same time instead of 1 on 1 with DF all the time.
I use blitz and impact shot as offensive attacks, blitz cooldown is pretty low and it does good damage when criting (10k+ on 5 mobs) also it's much faster than DF, so in the end I kill enemy groups faster.
MI with DF is better and faster against a single target though, that's true.
Comments
It's much too difficult to land.
Compare it to Threatening Rush, a similar sort of power the GWFs have. Threatening Rush activates immediately and lunges quite a distance towards the target. GC, on the other hand, has the worthless "draw-back" animation where the TR leisurely pulls back both arms rearwards in preparation for a double strike, and then lunges in a very slow manner for barely 20 feet.
The thing is, as I've mentioned, they've designed melees simply in the wrong way in this game, so gaining and maintaining stable range of attack is fairly difficult. If you want to hit GC, the most stable way is to track your target, get in as close as possible and use it from zero-range, like just smothering him your character visually. You know that will hit.
But then another problem rises -- even if you're stealthed and boosted in movement speed, GC is slow to activate, and you're detected if you go into melee range. If the other guy is a HR or a CW, all he has to do is move around while repeated clicking his button for any CC or Careful Attack. The moment your TR shows up visible while attempting GC, you're either CCd or hit with Careful Attack and the barrage of bullchi* DoTs to follow.
So, in order to avoid that, and still land a GC, what you want to do is land the tip of the attack as it comes out. What you want is the enemy to see you just when GC lands on them, and then you roll away immediately to disappear.
Naturally, that's hard to do. You have to keep yourself in attack range for the slow and short GC attack, so you're exposed to all sorts of random AoE attacks the other guy is going to use.
I've seen some TRs really use it masterfully in normal PuG grade games, but the difficulty of landing it sharply rises as your enemies get smarter, and even in PuG grade there are plenty of smart people. It usually hits a moment where eventually you begin to wonder if the effort you've put into your GC is worth the actual output it brings.
To be fair, its still manageable in most PuG level games, so you can stil have a lot of fun with it. But admittedly its a mode of attack which doesn't synergize well with the current trend of TR tactics.
TR vs TR fight, at least the traditional one which doesn't involve BI gear or PotB, is a "who peels the other guy first" fight. It is intense and a lot of fun, but requires a very sharp learning curve -- especially with a lot of choices you need to make, from at which timing you want to lash out and attack, upto even stuff like which feats you're gonna use.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As the single, the only TR who used to fight with a build entirely centered around VP, I will now engage in a manner of conversational method of enlightment developed by Socrates.
I will ask you questions, and while you are thinking about the answers, you will reach enlightment.
(1) You throw VP.
(2) You teleport to the CW.
...what next?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I die? LOL!
Umm...
Well, the teleport bit will probably make me visible - don't know if it breaks stealth or not, but I'll be close enough to be seen, so I'd probably save that in case I get CC'd.
But I'd say I'd hit them with Hateful Knives feated with Seething Knives to refill some stealth (assuming you have full AP), roll past them, hit them with Duelist's Flurry and a stealthed Lashing Blade and that should finish them off.
But I'd try marking them for Vengeance in Stealth first, then use Cloud of Steel, then Bait and Switch, then Shadow Strike to stun them, then the teleport and then Duelist's Flurry while they are stunned?
I can't have Lashing Blade AND Vengeance's Pursuit without dropping either Bait & Switch or Shadow Strike.
Am I any where in the same Time Zone as warm?
Thing is, I often get frozen out for more than long enough to be completely melted, and CWs seem to be immune to Freeze and Stun. I think they'd probably Freeze me with an At-Will while I am trying to finish them off.
By the way, I just got the Skulker's set for my Halfling MI, but I was thinking of trying a Hybrid with my Dragonborn WK.
Please save me the pain and tell me if I'll be wasting my Zen:
Yep. You guess it correctly... and that's all you need to know about VP.
You teleport to the enemy = your CCd and dead.
Things could be different if the TR actually had a CC... but nope. The TR has two CCs you can use outside of stealth - smoke bomb and Dazing Strike - and both are too slow to land. Your target breaks from the stun in less than a second, so you teleport, try something but the enemy recovers and dodge/teleports. And from that point, you're caught in a retaliatory CC and dead.
VP teleport doesn't break you free of CCs fast enough, slow and unreliable, and what's worse is the bullchi* Icy Rays -- you can't break free from it with VP. It's probably the ONE CC you need to break free from most, and it doesn't work.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
These things look great on paper, like my Hybrid idea, but if it does not work in PvP because the game code is all screwed, making some classes immune when they should have reasonable resistance, and making other classes hyper-sensitive when they should have reasonable resistance and faster response time, newbies like me have to rely on people who have tried it all and copy one of their builds.
Did your Vengeance TR ever work well at all, and then got nerfed? Or was it always too risky?
Cheers!
It worked well on PuG level.
After meeting sicarius and getting totally destroyed (although, considering whom I duelled, I'd have been destroyed whether it was this build or that. Considering the difference in skill, experience and equipment, no chance at all. Was a fool to have walked into such an obvious trap lol) -- I was on the verge of tweaking the build so it worked better against higher level threats. Shifting around stats, trying different feat sets, etc etc.. but during my experimentation they killed VP.
Now, before a series of changes, VP used to have 0 recharge. VP also used to stun around 1.5 seconds.
So before the changes, my build was set on maximizing the damage of a combo move which worked like this:
Stealth → VP(mark) → Disheartening Strike → VP(teleport) → *STUN* → Dazing Strike → Sly Flourish attacks → Shadow Strike(restealth)
During that time the GWF was the most powerful opponent on the field, and I tweaked this build well enough to meet a similarly geared GWF and take it down. It went well and it was a lot easier for me to fight the GWFs those days, because I could basically observe a pattern which went:
(1) stealth, VP, some ranged attacks... VP stun-DazingStrike combos, burst damage
(2) When GWF enters Unstoppable, hide, throw VP
(3) When Unstoppable ends, VP-DazingStrike combo again
(4) rinse and repeat
What I was lacking was straight-gear level and better stat distribution, and needed more fights to test new tweaks on. But then bam!
Suddenly, Vengeance's Pursuit got a recharge time of 16 seconds. The only thing which kept the power still feasible, was now gone.
So build is dead.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nowadays many TRs have an open minded approach, so we're able to see builds like pandora's WK perma, or rustlord's reflect-based combat TR. In those days, when anyone would mention such a thing, the first thing you'd see was the first 5 pages of the thread full of ridicule and "challenges". About one-third would laugh at the futileness, another one-third would cite the "Book of Viability" and the final one-third would do the "Chant of Never-Works-in-Premade Level". Nowdays normal TRs have grown strong enough to not really care those elitist thugs say, but things were very different back then.
IMO, the only person they left alone despite not using the 'orthodox' build methods, was todesfalle, since a lot of people respected him, those thugs wouldn't touch him. But if there was any newbie or any new person asking around or talking about different builds... you get the idea.
So basically in my case, I had to build everything down from scratch, so the early testing and the later days the build is quite different. I did have some pride that among all the builds out there, it was the most unique, and the most different, and actually fast paced and fun enough... and that worked - at least worked well enough to enjoy in normal level games. It would have been developed further, and there was room for more improvement, before they pulled the cord on VP. Such a shame.
I still have old videos stored in Youtube, if you might be interested in what it was like.
http://youtu.be/OIGHIt1CMmE
http://youtu.be/C-LslZzWtNI
http://youtu.be/R60PfGOymL4
http://youtu.be/QiOIRf5K6Ls
...and that was like 8~9 months ago. You can see that despite VP was considered about the crappiest encounter of all, it still used to mean something as a 0-recharge gap-closer. It made the fight very exciting and fast paced, teleporting around everywhere, going in and out, confusing the enemies.
After the recharge time of 16 seconds, it became clinically dead.
*sniff*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ye ye, and here we go again with all that "elitism thug" thing, aren't we? The reason why people didn't "touch" todesfaelle was that he didn't claim his build was Highend PVP ready - he just posted his build and said: "Hey look, I'm running fine with that" - also at the beginning his build was more PvE oriented than PvP. So "the elitism thugs" - how you like to say - never really checked his build.
For example
But if you run around the forums and yelling out loud: "YOO GUYS CHECK OUT MY UBER - HIGHEND PVP READY PREMADE DESTROYER BUILD!!!111!1!" - ofc people will check it out and ofc people who play alot pvp will check it out AND OFC people that knows whats going on pvp will check it out. And then they will point it out why that build isn't that much an highend pvp reader premade destroyer build. That has nothing todo with FotM or elitism.
For example:
So what does High-End PVP means? Well for most of the "elitism thug" pvp community it means: Scheduled Rainbow Premade against another Rainbow Premade. And not solo/duo/triple/whatever-qing or pugstomping pve guild premades. It is a made up and planned match between two groups - including rules.
Thats the reason why people are point out certain builds but not Todesfaelle's one. Because some d00ds claiming things they did but they actually never did.
Yes thats the reason why - that has nothing todo with "elitism". You always act like the pvp community is a bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ignorants... I don't actually know who the ignorant is.
Oh and for the build discussion itself: ofc there is no shame in testing new builds out and post them on the forums for feedback and opinions. But don't claim a build highend pvp when you actually never tested it in Highend PvP.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
ITC, gives you more damage time on the mobs since you can stand in red
ITC, gives you escapes from players since you dont get CC'd or killed and with it you can easily go back to stealth.
ITC > ALL
My WK executioner begs to differ. When he needs to get out of red, he's usually ready to refresh the crit-hit on his disheartening strike anyway. Then he can dash back in and flurry again.
Every dragon is a great success, no ITC necessary. Not a perma nor a PvP build, just saying that WK is not anything close to fodder for PvE mobs. They're actually quite good at switching between add-management and boss duty as the situation requires. They do need to mind their dodges very carefully though.
ITC is more needed on a TR that is 100% melee, because dodging away from your target is all downtime. But if you can switch between ranged and melee at will, there is no downtime.
100% ranged WK doesn't do great against single targets and is better in a multi-target fight because you run out of CoS charges and might not be ready to throw Disheartening again because the crit bleed is still ticking. If all your encounters are also cooling down, you're just kinda standing there looking at the dragon like a goober. But when there are adds, you get to zip around trying to tag everything with a crit bleed. It's more of a support TR than a pure striker, but a neat variant.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
DIFFERENT BUILDS---> DO NOT COMPARE
its like comparing GF with GWF
All I have to say is this, and you ll find out that it applies to any 'VS'
1 Keep your mind on HOW you want to play
2 Ask yourself if u can guess the DOWNSIDES OF THE WAY YOU LIKE (there ALWAYS ARE DOWNSIDES)
3 Check the feats and imagine yourself being 14k or 15k or even 20k gs and see if you can have the ratings you want where u want them
4 Untill u reach your goal play to be better EVERY TIME no matter the dying ratio, trust me if u focus u can be very good before that planned gs , no matter the build
5 Don't be disapointed before u reach that gs you've planned , NOT EVER
6 If there is a class on point that u cant deal there most definetly is a class that u can and there is another class on your team that's better suited from the guy on the point , SWITCH
7 Games are won mostly by talking to teammates and them talking to u .Power on winning a game is not on the build
8 If u want to be super strong and own everyone in pvp either
a:go find ppls lower than u in icewind and kill em
or
b:uninstall game there is no such class in neverwinter
P.S.1 If anyone find anything insulting or take personal offence in the above , please go for option 8-b
P.S.2 Have u ever tried to send a monster GF on enemy point and leave a WK and a MI on mid? trust me if they work well together (we're talking perma's now) NOTHING CAN CAP MID
P.S.3 There is nothing wrong in stepping out of the cap and keep an MI on it .YOU KEEP HIM FROM OTHER PPLS where he ll do a lot more harm .Me personaly if i find a good WK i leave point and then come back to cap it again, in the meantime I get 2-3 kilz. If i stay there my team might not be able to cap mid.
P.S.4 If my memory serves me right, Sicarius is a WK. NUFF SAID
Very curiously, you're making it sound as if the elitist thugs would leave you alone if someone didn't claim "fuh fuh my build can beat even the best!.
Except in most cases the truth is the friggin ego-maniacs never leave you alone whatever you do. Same with me, same with any other person who ever tried to bring up something different for the discussion.
In my case I never claimed it was premade level. All I did was mention it was something different under development. From day1 the feks started antagonizing me without reason, and despite not even once did I claim it was a build for the (*snort*) your all-so-precious "highend" the insults and name-callings began.
So why don't you stop pretending the highend folk only lash out in defense or something, because both you know, I know, and everyone who has suffered those pricks over the years know very well that's now how those feks operate.
They are basically jealousy-driven bunch of pathological ego maniacs who don't suffer even for a second, someone or something else gaining any kind of attention over them, with the constant need to preach to the rest of the players that they are the best, rest are nabs, and every nab should listen to what they say because they're important.
In retrospect, it used to work that way in this forums, but not anymore. So you can go on claiming that people like me have offended the pricks first and make it sound like some sort of neighborhood watch those thugs are doing, except everyone knows its not.
I've never claimed my build worked in the high-end, I've merely stated it can work well in PuG level, and there is room for improvement. I did mention that the so-called 'premade level' is like only 1%? 5%? of the entire PvP population and people should freely discuss their ideas without the need to please someone else's warped notion of 'viability'. Before that I used to post some interesting things discovered about different powers, and I also invented the term "semi-perma" and "combat tr", which now everyone uses. I also predicted the use of smoke bomb would rise, which happened as it did. What were the elitist thugs doing all that time?
Pissing on one's path all along the way. That's what they do.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thanks, kweassa, there's a lot of experience and insight in those two posts from you.
And I have to agree that some of the most obnoxious in-game chat comes from PvP Obsessives; in my experience, it's usually those who are under-geared and can't really play.
The favourite of my characters was always my Halfling TR, character number 6, I think. She was so much fun to play and could tank in Cloak Tower Dailies and skirmishes up to level 20-odd. But then some nerfs came in. I played her up to level 30 or so and then she became just another Leadership Mule.
But I recently geared her up with Skulker's armour, Spymasters weapons and +243 Recovery Blue gear and Rank 7 Silveries and now I have to get all the boons etc and start doing level 60 PvP to get the Profound gear. I am using the Siege of Neverwinter for practice and she does OK, given my slow reflexes and lack of experience.
My first character was the DC as my friends and I started at the same time and formed a Guild, and we had Three Tricksters and a Wizard. As there was no Druid, I went for DC to help the party. And I invested so much time, Zen and AD in her gear, Artifacts and Companions, I neglected my other classes. But now they have hit level 60, I'm taking them all out for a spin. It's more fun than taking the DCs into IWD or ToD.
Main problem is getting the Zen for re-specs to try different builds - I'd rather spend the AD on enchants and gear! I am not obsessive about PvP - as long as I can survive and do "OK" by winning 1/2 my matches, I can do fine in PvE as well. The Leader Board does not matter to me, but the PvP Campaign does.
Cheers!
Yes, I do that as well!
My DC Dwarf DO War Priest does it with Brand of the Sun for DoT damage and rebuilding Divinity.
My DC Tiefling AC Healer does it with Astral Seal so every hit heals the attacker slightly and AS also has a slight DoT effect (maybe to do with boons or Feats)
My Warlock does it with Curse.
And my WK does it with Disheartening Strike.
I suspect my GF could do it with Mark, but not toatally sure.
There are a lot of similarities in the rationale of using certain powers between the classes, and I noticed this with Disheartening Strike the other day.
CoS you want to whack all on the same Target, but DS you can spread the love a little bit.
I really enjoyed watching those, shame abuot the Nerf.
But you might want to leave a note on YouTube that VP has been nerfed and does not work like this any more, or you'll get a lot of upset newbies paying for re-specs and finding out the hard way.
Unfortunately, there are a few people who if you so much as breathed a hint of trying to PvP on anything but a FotM build, would have nothing to offer to the discussion other than to say it does not work, and that the poster is spreading misinformation by suggesting that anything other than FotM should or could be used under any circumstances. (I could try to link examples but I don't know what might have survived forum... uhm... tidying.)
You didn't even have to say "whisperknife" three times for them to appear and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all over you, once would do.
I don't PvP at high level (or ever, these days). I should not ever be matched with page 1 people (though I have been). If I am matched with high level PvPers, I am going to be slaughtered whether I play FotM or not. That's about all there is to that.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I'm OK with a 16 sec CD, but the mark should stick for 30 seconds, put a very easy to read "X" on their back, and it should hit as hard as lashing blade with a slightly longer lasting daze.
I tried using the ability for a while, but it was too much work to keep active on a the target & it was too hard to see when the mark vanished.
I'm not a WK, Thats my only response to this thread
Because you are the be all and end all of all TRs.....
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Wow dude, learn to read, someone said I was a WK I said I wasn't
Really sorry , memory is a ***** sometimes, my bad
1: So you are saying that he is a WK although he says he's not?
2:why the jealousy?
er... heru, let's just leave it be;; you really do not wanna go there;;;
...emotions run deep and violently amongst the people of the "highend" circles... so hush, come here and duck.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thank u for letting me know , didn't wanna throw oil in fire.
FOR PERSONAL DISS"S OR COMMENTS PM ON GAME , THIS IS A FORUM
But its the most fun in the forums where you diss people
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No, it is against forum rules to engage in such immature behavior. Enough said.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
If you can press W and aim your mouse, you're already PvE capable. How this even became a point of discussion is still baffling.
WK and MI are both viable for PvE. There aren't many builds in the game that aren't PvE viable. Then again, it's one thing to be capable and another thing to actually be good at it. MI's damage is simply higher than WK. The reason for this is because MI isn't throwing butter knives halfway across the dungeon because they're A) Too busy watching stealth meter to time dodges,
Have you noticed how much damage DF puts out on dungeon mobs? It puts out a lot more when it crits. You know how you reap the full benefit of crit DF? Not dodging in the middle of it because lol I'm about to run out of stealth. I'd even dare to say DS might be able to close the gap on this but you'd be too busy fishing for crits while the MI is already on his third DF and wondering why you're not doing any damage.
If we wanted add management, we'd get a CW. Unfortunately we wanted a boss killer and mistakingly invited a WK.
Don't get me wrong. I played WK since it came out. I love the idea of the spec. However, it's just not practical. Throwing kitchen knives isn't very intimidating or threatening. Unless they're mobs. Then again, you have to be mentally incapacitated to suck at dodging mobs.
+1
Also, PvE-wise , its stupid not to use DF
download ACT and check which is the main damage ALL trs have
If u dont want to do it i ll tell u
Its the DF BLEED DAMAGE, so... U HAVE TO STACK IT
In a boss more than 45% of your damage comes from the bleed, so IF u are at the boss ,MI or WK, (even if u are a scou-tree and your pvp main at-will is sly) , IF YOU ARE AT THE BOSS AND DONT USE FLURRY U DONT DO NOTHING DPS-WISE.
There are some exceptions of course , there always are, I just havent found one yet.
As far as soloing bosses is concerned, i think that WK is a hell of a viable option, but u have to be able to perma just from SS and BaS as u wont have time to dodge in a place just for the stealth bonus u just sud dodge when u see aoe on your feet.BTW i think WK is more relaxing in soloing bosses, not that fast in killing the boss, but more relaxing
P.S. On a gud build when u stack DF bleed u can get hopelully 10k per sec. that gives u bonus in life steal and sustain u in a way that u couldnt imagine if u just play with daggers
I use blitz and impact shot as offensive attacks, blitz cooldown is pretty low and it does good damage when criting (10k+ on 5 mobs) also it's much faster than DF, so in the end I kill enemy groups faster.
MI with DF is better and faster against a single target though, that's true.