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Whisper knife vs Master infiltrator Perma
neverknight5
Member Posts: 79
So I'm making a half Orc perma and I cannot decide which path to go for, Pandora's whisper knife build looked really good but how would it do 1 v 1 vs a MI perma?and the Spell storm perma freeze? So Master infiltrator vs whisper knife.
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Master Infiltrator's have CW's at their mercy as well. They have the mighty ITC and use Duelist's Flurry (I don't)
Honestly, both are equal in terms of dealing against CW's. It's a matter of your preference/playstyle. If you like being risky and get rewarded, go MI. If you are careful and want to be like a ghost then go my build using WK.
MI Perma VS WK perma depends on the skill tbh. He has ITC, but you have smoke. It depends on the timing. MI has damage advantage but WK has the RANGE. As long as the WK avoids DF he's good to go.
I always get comments like "Oh you're one of these f*uckers" when I meet an MI on a node.
TLDR: Depends on you.
As far as rogue vs rogue, the MI rogue will have a good advantage. While WK provides ranged benefits, those go out the window when you are fighting another MI rogue which will generally only be visible when they are hitting you with Duelist Fury in your face. Most MI builds will still be able to or will come extremely close to being able to fully perma with just Shadow Strike and Bait + Switch, except they will have a few seconds of damage/CC immunity with ITC in addition to this if they do start to come out of stealth. Also, when fighting an MI rogue, they will be able to pop ITC if they start getting in trouble with keeping their stealth rotation, but if a WK rogue has issues, they will be left vulnerable until they can re-stealth.
They have said a while ago they have plans to "nerf" stealth as well. Possibilities such as reducing damage the longer one is in stealth, or making one who is stealthed temporarily visible to those they hit while in stealth were being looked at. Since they have now said TR/DC is being reworked next module, we can probably expect to see some kind of stealth nerf coming in, which would make MI the best choice by far since ITC will keep a more viable semi-perma rotation.
Perma-freeze build isn't really an issue with either build because they wont be able to build up stacks of chill on you since you will be either out of range or only out of stealth long enough to hit DF (which will also have ITC immunity). What is an issue is if you are fighting a CW, but are getting hit by steal time, icy terrain, or other AOE moves as a WK perma, because once you take a few hits to deplete your stealth and knock you out of it, you are going to be extremely vulnerable where an MI would have ITC to help keep them alive.
BUT when you start to play high end PvP domination, the reason why WK is severely outperformed by the MI is because of its range. Pandora pretty much said it all about the benefits of having range. He hasn't told you the downside.
If you're a ranged class, you will spend less time on the node and you will keep bleeding points even if you can stalemate the MI, who is smirking at you from the inside of a very red node.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Who said the WK exits the node? He stays ranged while remaining ON the node.
Any WK that gives the node to his opponent should just go MI if he's that scared of getting CCed.
A node is bigger than people think, a WK isn't forced to exit the ENTIRE node if he wants to stay ranged.
+1 To this... excellent summary, especially vs MI, which I have a huge problem with unless I switch around my powers for the fight.
While I agree with pandora1x that we aren't forced to exit the node, I do find myself accidentally stepping off from time to time as I jump around tossing daggers & trying to keep max distance on the node. Maybe I just suck..I don't know. But I do know, that when I was MI DF, I never left accidently left the node, because I was always getting in someones grill to land DF.
Thank you! Thought I was only one of the few who thought that. I have no respect for anyone who uses that in PVP, period.
I'm surprised you use Smoke as a Master Infiltrator, it's very rare.
I don't understand comments like these. What does it mean to say "X ability doesn't require skill?" Its adding to your DPS & interrupts. I could claim that hitting the stealth button doesn't require skill. It's a tool like any other. It's use is situational, not an "I win" button.
Having said all that, I don't generally use it unless I'm facing another TR, but that's only because I find smoke bomb more useful. If I felt I got better use from PotB, I would use it.
Just my 2 c.
WK doesn't have to be low HP, but poorly geared ones usually do, because they need to focus on power to bring dps up.
As an exclusively PvP perma WK, I have 36k HP, 20% def, 23% tenacity, 10% deflect, while still maintaining 5.5k power & 28% ArP. I shred nearly everyone except the tankiest of toons & can still take a beating when caught out of stealth, but this type of build take top end gear & spec.
Freezing doesn't last forever, and I'm not even a halfling. I have never been killed from 100% health in a single freeze rotation by a solo CW... even when I am killed, my SF usually resurrects & I'm back in stealth popping waters, healing pot & regen.
What you have to remember, is I am rarely caught, because I can keep my distance... I don't have to go into melee range to land DF, so the CW is usually frantically dodging and AoEing, while I'm on the other side of the node chuckling and watching his health melt away.
As a matter of fact, pushing the stealth button really doesn't require skill. Ofcourse there is skill involved in timing when to enter and come out and etc, but in terms of functionality of the power itself its a passive power, just as PotB is. You don't need to make use its properties in any active way -- it's just like a passive toggle power, both stealth and PotB...hence the usual disdain towards it.
A stealth vs stealth fight takes concentration and effort on both sides, keen senses, anticipation, quick reflexes, etc etc.. where each side tries to land more hits to peel the other guy's stealth first, while keeping ones own. PotB? Just so long as you know an enemy TR is there, click button = you win stealth fight. The other guy is instantly peeled with one or two hits. (For some reason goddarn PotB hits just slice massive chunks from your stealth meter per hit)
Ofcourse, in most cases lazy TRs with low experience use it, thinking that single power is gonna win them the TR vs TR fight -- so even if you lose stealth first, usually you're still better geared, more experienced, and more skilled as well. Same with me when I meet average grade PuG TRs. I still win.
But.. if anyone who is comparable with your own skill/gear/experience level uses it, then frankly there's no way to win a TR vs TR fight unless you use PotB yourself as well. Also, even if a really bad TR uses it, it is especially troubling near nodes with multiple enemies nearby. Just one hit from PotB and your stealth rotation is screwed. MIs can come back from it by use of ITC to cover up the screwed situation, but for WKs, its disaster.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I completely agree with this. I took about 5 deaths over two matches last night, because there was an extra TR + CW or HR on enemy home node. Absolute nightmare for me, and I was constantly getting popped with 1 or 2 PotB hits which would thrash my rotations & CC'd/DoTd until dead... very frustrating. Matches like that, really expose the weakness of perma WK. I still like it overall, but it is definitely not perfect.
Im actually going to respec & try out Brandon's reflect build in a few days (crafting chest today or tomorrow). I'm really curious how that will compare, I think he was on page 4 last night.
All no-skill powers usually are. Hence, the term, "no-skill" -- it rewards results better than you worked for.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Was about to post this.
If the MI uses PoB aka no skill encounter, the WK is dead period. (On a node). If it's an 1v1 in icewind dale then it's another story.
It's sad that a single skill dismisses an entire paragon path.
I'm kinda tired of perma stealth anyway, can't wait for the TR re-work..
And warlocks are not exactly king of PvP anyway, so okay you think I'm terrible that's fine with me. You are stuck in a virtual world my friend.
Just fought a very good cw, he spams steal time every 4 secs, If I didn't live in a cave. I can precisely count the next ST use.
Its very challenging to play against good players, If I didn't advance an encounter I'll get screwed, so If I emit the ITC use with that skirmish (in relevance to the topic) I'll be camping 24/7 in the campfire. A really good CW that one, saw him in PE he's just 19k but that doesn't diminish his skill though, when steal time (even canceled) procs storms spell, your stealth bar melts away.
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
And most rogues think they carry the whole team, perfect examples on this thread.
But that's the truth. If there is player no one can kill him then team send tr to at least survive against him. Same TR is send to enemy base which is hell cause u fight against multiple players and hard to kill anyone so you won't get much kills only try to not die and it's not easy when HR and CW is so op.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
And when would a Whisperknife use Duelists's Flurry instead of Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strike?
Apart from getting Frozen and Stunned, the main problems my WK has is when fighting against a Stealthed MI.
I have an MI as well, but only got the full Skulker's set today to try and play semi-Perma. So now I am wondering if I should re-spec and what Powers I should use in PvP.
Cheers!
1. Gloaming Cut is a melee power without protection of any kind
2. TRs, despite in stealth, despite a melee class, are detected when in melee range
3. Power animation goddarned too slow, self-root goddarned too strong, lunge distance pathetic
GC is a difficult power to use, and although some use it well, in many cases it takes too much effort for too less of a result.
When you meet someone who is:
(1) not a HR
(2) not a CW
(3) clearly weaker than you, so you know you can use whatever power to have fun with
If you want it easy, abuse PotB. If you want to actually experience and learn, there's not much you can do but keep fighting until you finally "get" it. Its really difficult to explain, especially stealth vs. stealth situations. It involves a lot of anticipation and "tracking". I usually try to listen and pick out a general direction when I hear knives thrown, and then use the node counter as a reference to see whether the other guy is within the node or not, and then move in certain patterns in hopse to find him.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
OK, so Sneaky Stabber, where Gloaming Cut fills 10% of your Stealth meter just by using it, without killing the target, is not a good Feat for PvP?
Due to recent experiences against Stealthed MIs, I was thinking next time I should re-slot a melee At-Will in place of one of the missile types. when there are TRs on the other team. My WK could see the little sod, and he was thwacking away, then tumbled backwards out of range again and missiled me as my steath had broken. Disheartening Strike is too slow, and once I have used up Cloud of Steel, I don't have much - I'll have to go with Path of Blades and bear the shame!
It's usually the stealthed TRs that give me most trouble. I have killed HR and GF one-on-one, but I suspect they were no more geared or experienced at their class than I am as a TR. I'm really a DC player, but I really enjoy the TR as well. And as all my Leadership Mules are hitting level 60, I've been taking them out for a ride.
Cheers!
Why is Vengeance's Pursuit with 5 ranks of Determined Pursuit not good for PvP, against CW's, for example?
The thrown dagger of Vengeance's Pursuit has a 100% chance to Interrupt your target, and Reactivating briefly slows them by 40%.
So, just from reading this, it makes me think it might be useful for stopping a CW casting until you can maybe do some Crits and DoTs on the obnoxious swine!
LOL
But then, I don't have any experience of trying to use it.
Would the Slow effect stop his Teleport Dodge?
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