silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited June 2014
Ive read Kaelacs guide, Im 15k AC spec though, it IS slower and clunkier then DO spec and I dont do as much damage.
Normal GPF enchant 6k power 28k hps with pve spec gear on , DG, SB and DL and I can tell you there are plenty of mobs in IWD that take more then one rotations.
I do however think that DV is more in par, as I can solo some of the encounters there (barbarian ones) so its not as bad, if I cant tag into a group , I can just go solo one.
Overall, after timing my DC for many days against GWF and CW (all now near the 15k more give or take ) its about 1/3rd of the time added on, when you are doing three dailies, having one slower class wears on you.
Other then that.. meh its ok , Im not thrilled with DC at this time, the pvp changes have really hurt the fun factor of DCs since pre tenacity honestly. They have their place I guess. Part of my problem is these dailies, they are soaking up all of my time in just doing them on most days. I cant play 8 hours a day, I have 1 1/2 hours maybe, maybe 2. When over a hour is dailies, it starts to wear on you. WILL there be more dailies in mod 4? would like a break to run some matches and get into some dds honestly OR heck get some of the black ice gear to drop for me..
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
I'm doing the campaign on 6 characters at the moment. It is too much, and I'll take my time getting the rest of the stable through it.
That said, the biggest trick to not getting burned out is... avoidance. Do your rep quest. Unlock Need for Mead as soon as you can so the rep quest will be done as soon as you hop in on one heroic encounter of your choosing, preferably a little one close to the entrance if really strapped for time.
There is plenty of time to collect enough coins and tears while not doing everything every day. Identify which quests are the least annoying and make a point of doing those regularly. Save dailies and do them in larger rounds, one character at a time, when you have time. If you miss a few, oh well. There's still plenty of time. Decline the quests that give you fits. Honestly, most of the ones that unlock at rep 200 are more trouble than they're worth, no matter what you play... too much travel time and hunting around for the spawns.
All of these campaigns are actually not unfriendly to a minimum effort approach, because there'll be at least one thing that throttles progression to a sufficient degree that you can slack off on the other dailies and not really get through it any slower than someone trying to do everything every day, and you'll end up without the stray excess campaign currency to boot.
This is advice I'd give to everyone, not just DCs.
First on the issue of PvP, I couldn't truely care. I avoid it like the plague. In fact most of my guild avoids it. Its total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on this server. So that PvP is a none starter to me.
The problem is the fact the Cleric isn't a class on its own, its the fact they made it a "support" class and not a class on its own.
Mortisan you talk about how the cleric would be a cool "henchmen" to buy. And that is the problem, they are nothing more than a spit and polish lackey or a healing potion. You argue that hey are so cool to have around. You say nothing about the class being good for its own sake. Its good for what it can do for the other classes. Do you use this standard for the TR? The HR? The GWF? The CW? or the GF? Only the DC is expressed in terms of what it does as a "support". That makes it a "henchmen" class. But that's just it, they are made a "support" class, not a full member of an adventuring party. Basicly the poor DC gets to "buff/heal" every one, they can act only through others. They should be able to buff/ heal and fight (obviously not as well as a fighter), just like the table top version. The cleric needs to be an adventuring class, not a "henchmen" class.
Beckylunatic, you argue that being able to do IWD daillies solo is the measure, but then you also point out that your DC is half as capable of as the your CW. You make my arguement for me, the DC is half a character class. The cleric in table top is able to buff themselves and physically pound their enemies similarly to the fighter classes. They are also able to hurl spells that reveal hidden foes, disable them and do damage or summon divine creatures to battle for them. They are suppose to be a versitial class with in their divine abilities. Just as the wizards are in their arcane, the fighter in their weapon mastery and the rogue in their misdirection and stealth.
None of you argue that the cleric is an equal of the other classes. You argue that you're content with their role as polishers (buffing/ debuffing) and walking healing potion. I'm advocating for the cleric class to be Divine Emisaries and not the handy "henchmen" class you drag along on a dungeon run.
Frustrated Fan
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First on the issue of PvP, I couldn't truely care. I avoid it like the plague. In fact most of my guild avoids it. Its total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on this server. So that PvP is a none starter to me.
The problem is the fact the Cleric isn't a class on its own, its the fact they made it a "support" class and not a class on its own.
Mortisan you talk about how the cleric would be a cool "henchmen" to buy. And that is the problem, they are nothing more than a spit and polish lackey or a healing potion. You argue that hey are so cool to have around. You say nothing about the class being good for its own sake. Its good for what it can do for the other classes. Do you use this standard for the TR? The HR? The GWF? The CW? or the GF? Only the DC is expressed in terms of what it does as a "support". That makes it a "henchmen" class. But that's just it, they are made a "support" class, not a full member of an adventuring party. Basicly the poor DC gets to "buff/heal" every one, they can act only through others. They should be able to buff/ heal and fight (obviously not as well as a fighter), just like the table top version. The cleric needs to be an adventuring class, not a "henchmen" class.
Beckylunatic, you argue that being able to do IWD daillies solo is the measure, but then you also point out that your DC is half as capable of as the your CW. You make my arguement for me, the DC is half a character class. The cleric in table top is able to buff themselves and physically pound their enemies similarly to the fighter classes. They are also able to hurl spells that reveal hidden foes, disable them and do damage or summon divine creatures to battle for them. They are suppose to be a versitial class with in their divine abilities. Just as the wizards are in their arcane, the fighter in their weapon mastery and the rogue in their misdirection and stealth.
None of you argue that the cleric is an equal of the other classes. You argue that you're content with their role as polishers (buffing/ debuffing) and walking healing potion. I'm advocating for the cleric class to be Divine Emisaries and not the handy "henchmen" class you drag along on a dungeon run.
Frustrated Fan
I really like the description you give of the class. But in this vision, can I be proficient at healing? (not like now, where my heals are lesser then a potion)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
Actually I'd look at it as the DC being a perfectly viable class in its own right, while the CW has some crazypants synergies going on that make the damage it can dish out alone severely over-the-top... nevermind what happens in a full party that's working together.
I actually do view the gold standard for gameplay here to be capable of soloing while also knowing how to bring the most to a party situation. And sometimes, that is taking a buff/debuff role in order to allow your teammates to do what they do best. And yes, that is how I want all classes played in any group I participate in, to prioritize smooth runs and teamwork.
I've started soloing heroic dungeons on the DC for giggles. I haven't gotten very far in that project yet, and I don't know how far I will get but it's been fun to check out.
Neverwinter isn't tabletop D&D. All classes are limited by what's been coded into the game engine. A lot of players don't appreciate DCs. For the record, those same players tend to appreciate GFs and TRs and HRs even less. There are DC class mechanics that are downright godawful in implementation, like Righteousness. But I'm also a PvE-oriented player, and I don't feel like I'm "not a full member" when playing my DC in a party. Yes, pretty much everything I do then is designed to support the group... that's how I choose what powers to slot when playing any class in a group situation, how best to support that group so we can all get things done together.
Actually I'd look at it as the DC being a perfectly viable class in its own right, while the CW has some crazypants synergies going on that make the damage it can dish out alone severely over-the-top... nevermind what happens in a full party that's working together.
I actually do view the gold standard for gameplay here to be capable of soloing while also knowing how to bring the most to a party situation. And sometimes, that is taking a buff/debuff role in order to allow your teammates to do what they do best. And yes, that is how I want all classes played in any group I participate in, to prioritize smooth runs and teamwork.
I've started soloing heroic dungeons on the DC for giggles. I haven't gotten very far in that project yet, and I don't know how far I will get but it's been fun to check out.
Neverwinter isn't tabletop D&D. All classes are limited by what's been coded into the game engine. A lot of players don't appreciate DCs. For the record, those same players tend to appreciate GFs and TRs and HRs even less. There are DC class mechanics that are downright godawful in implementation, like Righteousness. But I'm also a PvE-oriented player, and I don't feel like I'm "not a full member" when playing my DC in a party. Yes, pretty much everything I do then is designed to support the group... that's how I choose what powers to slot when playing any class in a group situation, how best to support that group so we can all get things done together.
I understand your view. But I like a more active role. Not based on procs but based on decisions. Who to heal, how to heal and so on.
Dunno about you, but I generally can dictate exactly where people are going to stand, who they're going to attack and so on.
People migrate to blue circles, and everyone wants to get divine glowed. Assuming your group isn't made of fail and moron, you can basically be the battlefield general.
If I can heal everyone on the team (which I can) I will. I've never stood there and thought "gosh, I wish I could only heal one person at a time and thus had to constantly make triage decisions, that sounds superfun."
Though for the record, I'd heal CWs first, then GWFs, then GFs (because they're so easy to heal) then TRs. I would fail to heal HRs because they'd be like two hundred metres away in the wrong direction.
Details:
1) You seem to have a very skewed/biased notion about what the word "support" entails. Perhaps you are a DotA/some similar game player, where the word "support" sometimes becomes the equivalent of trash. That word definitely has -none- of the negative connotations associated with those games here in Neverwinter.
It is insulting that you seem to think that we are expendable. This is not a chess game. If a good DC falls you are looking at a massive decrease in the party's overall DPS/mitigation, especially if all 4 other party members are still alive.
2)Your basic argument is that DCs suck because the class "isn't good for it's own sake". It is.
The problem is that you associate buffing others as (apparently) a point of weakness. This is opinion, not fact. There is obviously nothing "weak" about a group of five people gaining the equivalent of Perfect Vorpal + mitigation. And the DC can accomplish that with using a single, cast -and-forget power (Hallowed Ground). A few of our dailies have the in-game equivalent of godly intervention.
Essentially you are bashing the DC class simply because it's not the Battle Cleric.
3) Contrary to what you seem to believe, older, experienced DCs play as they want. We are definitely not DotA-type support characters who live their lives babysitting carries with all their simpering and acting too eager-to-please.
We know our strengths and limits, we know what we bring to the table, we know we have some of the strongest PvE powers in the game. Among other things (as implied above) we will not hesitate to let you to die if you won't stand in our circle - as long as people do their job, then we will do ours.
4) You keep asking for the Battle Cleric and yet if and and when a Battle Cleric is implemented (the template already exists) a DC will likely have stronger AoEs (being the caster-type cleric). I don't think a possible stronger single target DPS/survivability version of the class is going to help with your killing speed in IWD, considering how you play your DC.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Healing depression is the dumbest idea from a dev i have ever encountered. They have a healing class that already had weak heals and no dps build/capability and yet they put in place heal depression in pvp. This just shows their incompetence and lack of experience on their game. They do not have a game master for this game and it shows a lot. This game will not last long. A protector specced gf can kill a healer with the same gear. Good ****ing game.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Healing depression is the dumbest idea from a dev i have ever encountered. They have a healing class that already had weak heals and no dps build/capability and yet they put in place heal depression in pvp. This just shows their incompetence and lack of experience on their game. They do not have a game master for this game and it shows a lot. This game will not last long. A protector specced gf can kill a healer with the same gear. Good ****ing game.
I threw it all away and ran. Just resort to staying back and tossing debuffs/buffs. Funny though, breaking a GWF's spirit doesn't stop him or those pathfinders from killing you. Might as well call it Naked Killing.
Then I tried break the spirit plus a freakin astral shield, along with 11% from foresight, 5% from brand of the sun. That's a massive 76% damage reduction, and a geared GWF/PF simply tore right through it like it was paper. If that's not OP then the universe might as well be destroyed.
Healing depression is the dumbest idea from a dev i have ever encountered. They have a healing class that already had weak heals and no dps build/capability and yet they put in place heal depression in pvp. This just shows their incompetence and lack of experience on their game. They do not have a game master for this game and it shows a lot. This game will not last long. A protector specced gf can kill a healer with the same gear. Good ****ing game.
dumbest idea? I'd say Righteousness tops it for shear class contradiction.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I threw it all away and ran. Just resort to staying back and tossing debuffs/buffs. Funny though, breaking a GWF's spirit doesn't stop him or those pathfinders from killing you. Might as well call it Naked Killing.
Then I tried break the spirit plus a freakin astral shield, along with 11% from foresight, 5% from brand of the sun. That's a massive 76% damage reduction, and a geared GWF/PF simply tore right through it like it was paper. If that's not OP then the universe might as well be destroyed.
The game has changed, you are NO longer sitting in your shield, you will be destroyed, we can all bellyache about it, but it hasnt been that way since Pre tenacity honestly. Any class can destroy us in just sitting around now.
You want to survive? Get the gear , and move, move , move. While moving cast your heals and throw sheilds in the middle of the nodes for the GF/GWFs and TRs. It is also up to them to prone, knock, daze ect this is where FLS comes in handy , playing either GF or GWF, you dont always have to use it on the engaged your on, move it around to others to relieve the DC a bit.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
The game has changed, you are NO longer sitting in your shield, you will be destroyed, we can all bellyache about it, but it hasnt been that way since Pre tenacity honestly. Any class can destroy us in just sitting around now.
You want to survive? Get the gear , and move, move , move. While moving cast your heals and throw sheilds in the middle of the nodes for the GF/GWFs and TRs. It is also up to them to prone, knock, daze ect this is where FLS comes in handy , playing either GF or GWF, you dont always have to use it on the engaged your on, move it around to others to relieve the DC a bit.
That sorta didn't work for me... They just roar, and chow down. How do you counter someone who practically disables your keyboard for 2.5 seconds?
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited June 2014
Roar isnt a super easy skill to aim honestly. you see a GWF riding towards you you need to time a dodge past him(do it before you think you need to , they may also try FLS first, then will hit you with IBS, then do a roar or vice versa, the biggest thing is to avoid that first prone, goes along way), its actually a skill that also pauses the GWF, if he misses its 8 more seconds or so before he can put it on you again. This will eventually be removed, I know on my GWF, I wasnt even using it until the HRs figured out the new meta, they are un-killable to me anyways without roar slotted, even then I would usually die to any pathfinder, with thier armour that heals them. BAd enough that meditation basically heals them to full and you cant even touch them.. HA, dont get me started on HR's.
Remember your job is to keep points from ticking and heal.
Eventually they can kill you if left alone, but if your team is always leaving you alone, your probably not on a team good enough to win anyways.
Or... if that is happening, find your best melee or pathfinder and follow them.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Mmmm, they see you, they sprint, still far from you they fls you. And then it is lights out for you.
And another thing: there is not cast on the run in this game. You stand still while casting.
Goddamit, why you keep saying strats and setup, but no one of you post a youtube link to really see you in action.
I know you are honest, but I really really suspect we see the same thing very differently.
And I think you really overestimate your role. This DC cannot change the course of a fight. Against competent team we are always at campfire.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Roar isnt a super easy skill to aim honestly. you see a GWF riding towards you you need to time a dodge past him(do it before you think you need to , they may also try FLS first, then will hit you with IBS, then do a roar or vice versa, the biggest thing is to avoid that first prone, goes along way), its actually a skill that also pauses the GWF, if he misses its 8 more seconds or so before he can put it on you again. This will eventually be removed, I know on my GWF, I wasnt even using it until the HRs figured out the new meta, they are un-killable to me anyways without roar slotted, even then I would usually die to any pathfinder, with thier armour that heals them. BAd enough that meditation basically heals them to full and you cant even touch them.. HA, dont get me started on HR's.
Remember your job is to keep points from ticking and heal.
Eventually they can kill you if left alone, but if your team is always leaving you alone, your probably not on a team good enough to win anyways.
Or... if that is happening, find your best melee or pathfinder and follow them.
If you are sturdy enough to defend a point you WON'T heal anybody. Your ****ty heals won't keep a cw alive. And sure a gf and gwf won't need that few hp your heals will give them
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Roar isnt a super easy skill to aim honestly. you see a GWF riding towards you you need to time a dodge past him(do it before you think you need to , they may also try FLS first, then will hit you with IBS, then do a roar or vice versa, the biggest thing is to avoid that first prone, goes along way), its actually a skill that also pauses the GWF, if he misses its 8 more seconds or so before he can put it on you again. This will eventually be removed, I know on my GWF, I wasnt even using it until the HRs figured out the new meta, they are un-killable to me anyways without roar slotted, even then I would usually die to any pathfinder, with thier armour that heals them. BAd enough that meditation basically heals them to full and you cant even touch them.. HA, dont get me started on HR's.
Remember your job is to keep points from ticking and heal.
Eventually they can kill you if left alone, but if your team is always leaving you alone, your probably not on a team good enough to win anyways.
Or... if that is happening, find your best melee or pathfinder and follow them.
Kidding right? You make it sound as if DCs are HRs with a bucket filled with dodges. And another melee or PF won't stop a GWF from targeting someone down, they could care less that someone else is attacking them.
2 pathetic dodges will not save you. I already tried. The only time I survive is when they suck and do god awful damage and give teammates enough time to kill them or they eventually die from me and someone else.
Here is the thing: if you are a member of a good team a DC can be an asset. But that is true with any class for that matter. But most of us don't play premades. This means we are there to fill in kills for someone.
The funny (sad) thing is tenacity heal depression was put in to limit GWF healing. This killed the DC class in PvP. It was obvious this would occur but the devs decided to push it forward. They only recently found out GWF Unstoppable Recovery was not effected by it. No, really, it is that bad.
PvE a DC was made irrelevant with Life Steal. On my CW I never need a DC around because LS gives so much health (even at 1K) and pots heal far faster. And my CW can debuff mobs just as good, if not better, than a DC by using CoI, HV set bonus, and PF weapon enchant. The only thing a DC brings is damage mitigation which is...meh good. Mobs telegraph their moves and my CW has 3 dodges so I don't really need to hop in tiny blue circles.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited June 2014
Woah.. reign it in guys.. Never said anything of any sort, in fact I agree that are self sustain is broken, exactly why I said you cant STAY in the shield any more. But if Im on my GWF and you have no surviablity, thanks I guess for the free kill, you can Defintely keep one player at bay for awhile, 8-10 seconds until help arrives, without sacrificing all healing. I mean heck I got 6k power, what exactly do you think, that I have 3k power out there or something?
Im a faithful/righteouss mix as well, retraited further into faithful to overcome some of self healing nerfs, but you cannot sacrifice all defense for all power and crit..
If you search my threads, Ive pointed out over and over that the DC needs rework and its not in a great place but at the same time, with the right group , you can definitely help determine the outcome.
As it is written above, nobody needs DC in PvE and nobody wants DC in PvP.
DC can give a player +20% damage but GWF, HR, TR can give %100 more damage. CW can choke and give those allmighty classes immobile, easy prey long enough for maybe 3-4 hits. With +20% damage you need to hit 15-20 times the same mob for this. And allso choke can save a character better than healing or buff. Think you are about to die and a CW choke the enemy. You can use your attacks for lifesteal and your regeneration starts working. Allso you deal damage to the enemy that now maybe he has the low HP and need to run away.
DC are leaders. Even in 3E leaders were like buffers (Clerics were not one of them). But they were giving permenant and affective buffs. In 4E leaders have the ability to alter the battle field, which DC can not do. DC should have had CC as much as CW but CWs should be the ones deling more damage and DC to be the ones preventing and healing it. But they are only preventing and healing to some extend without CC "Surpise effect".
"DC: At least some protection from CC.
Dev: N
Perma/great buffs with some healing OR buffing/debuffing with CC with some healing how the DC should be. In their current state any intellegent being would know that DC wouldn't be a treat to him because they can not deal damage, they can not CC, they can not heal affectively and nobody really cares about saving them.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here is the thing: if you are a member of a good team a DC can be an asset. But that is true with any class for that matter. But most of us don't play premades. This means we are there to fill in kills for someone.
The funny (sad) thing is tenacity heal depression was put in to limit GWF healing. This killed the DC class in PvP. It was obvious this would occur but the devs decided to push it forward. They only recently found out GWF Unstoppable Recovery was not effected by it. No, really, it is that bad.
PvE a DC was made irrelevant with Life Steal. On my CW I never need a DC around because LS gives so much health (even at 1K) and pots heal far faster. And my CW can debuff mobs just as good, if not better, than a DC by using CoI, HV set bonus, and PF weapon enchant. The only thing a DC brings is damage mitigation which is...meh good. Mobs telegraph their moves and my CW has 3 dodges so I don't really need to hop in tiny blue circles.
1) dc+gwf vs gwf = dc+gwf win
2) gwf+gwf vs gwf = gwf+gwf win (way faster)
3) dc+gwf vs gwf+gwf = gwf+gwf win (they obliterate the dc and then see 2)
and this is true with gwf = almost (all?) any other class.
No, but it bloody well SHOULD be more like the pnp game. It is advertised as a D&D 4E game.
And the DC should be recoded so it can do what senordoeboy said and be the equal of any class 1 on 1 with the same GS and skill.
Just like in AD&D.
~
And no sign that they want to give new dignity to the class. While openly OP class players keep shouting that DC are fine. Hell, everything is fine, just some little touches here and there.
I think it's time for me to find another game.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
And no sign that they want to give new dignity to the class. While openly OP class players keep shouting that DC are fine. Hell, everything is fine, just some little touches here and there.
I think it's time for me to find another game.
GWFs are fine as they are(sarcasm). We SHOULD be able to penetrate divine shields and slaughter every occupant within, out DPSing incoming healing PLUS damage reduction....
No, but it bloody well SHOULD be more like the pnp game. It is advertised as a D&D 4E game.
And the DC should be recoded so it can do what senordoeboy said and be the equal of any class 1 on 1 with the same GS and skill.
Just like in AD&D.
~
Have you actually played 4E? The classes are supposed to be balanced against each other for their contribution as their party role (defender/striker/leader/controller). They're definitely not meant to be balanced against each other, and certainly not for 1v1.
That doesn't mean it translates well to an online game in PVP mode, as we can all see the state of the DC. But please stop using 4E as a standard for PVP balance.
Unless your idea of balance was during the 3E days of CoDzilla, where Clerics/Druids/Wizards were considered god-tier classes by the Optimisation forums. In which case, you have a situation reversed where the DC is so overwhelmingly powerful that martial classes cannot even dream of competing.
I love PnP too (even though my group has migrated over to the IKRPG system for easier DMing) but to use PnP D&D as a basis for PVP balance is ridiculous.
Except for cleric, all the classes healing powers, and the abilities Regeneration and Life Steal should become %10 effective of their current state. other classes shouldn't be able to heal themselfs so effectively. Healing pots should be healing %25 of their current state or should be 10 times more expensive. Otherwise no one will appriciate the damage mitigation and healing.
In D&D lifesteal and regeneration powers are so rare and powerfull and there is reason for that! Because of life steal, regeneration and all the classes having great healing abilities, it feels just like a shooter action genre game. There should be some tactics, some fear of loosing health, that they should be precious.
If neverwinter online is not D&D but just an action game using the name and setup of Forgotten Realms Neverwinter then Clerics should get some active action abilities instead of tactical group buffs.
I dont understand why people nerfed the cleric that they are so tanky with their healings and great defense. That is what a cleric is. Being hard to kill and making the others members of the team harder to kill while punishing whomever that whishes to get rid of him. If he can not punish, the other group members will.
Comments
Normal GPF enchant 6k power 28k hps with pve spec gear on , DG, SB and DL and I can tell you there are plenty of mobs in IWD that take more then one rotations.
I do however think that DV is more in par, as I can solo some of the encounters there (barbarian ones) so its not as bad, if I cant tag into a group , I can just go solo one.
Overall, after timing my DC for many days against GWF and CW (all now near the 15k more give or take ) its about 1/3rd of the time added on, when you are doing three dailies, having one slower class wears on you.
Other then that.. meh its ok , Im not thrilled with DC at this time, the pvp changes have really hurt the fun factor of DCs since pre tenacity honestly. They have their place I guess. Part of my problem is these dailies, they are soaking up all of my time in just doing them on most days. I cant play 8 hours a day, I have 1 1/2 hours maybe, maybe 2. When over a hour is dailies, it starts to wear on you. WILL there be more dailies in mod 4? would like a break to run some matches and get into some dds honestly OR heck get some of the black ice gear to drop for me..
That said, the biggest trick to not getting burned out is... avoidance. Do your rep quest. Unlock Need for Mead as soon as you can so the rep quest will be done as soon as you hop in on one heroic encounter of your choosing, preferably a little one close to the entrance if really strapped for time.
There is plenty of time to collect enough coins and tears while not doing everything every day. Identify which quests are the least annoying and make a point of doing those regularly. Save dailies and do them in larger rounds, one character at a time, when you have time. If you miss a few, oh well. There's still plenty of time. Decline the quests that give you fits. Honestly, most of the ones that unlock at rep 200 are more trouble than they're worth, no matter what you play... too much travel time and hunting around for the spawns.
All of these campaigns are actually not unfriendly to a minimum effort approach, because there'll be at least one thing that throttles progression to a sufficient degree that you can slack off on the other dailies and not really get through it any slower than someone trying to do everything every day, and you'll end up without the stray excess campaign currency to boot.
This is advice I'd give to everyone, not just DCs.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
First on the issue of PvP, I couldn't truely care. I avoid it like the plague. In fact most of my guild avoids it. Its total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on this server. So that PvP is a none starter to me.
The problem is the fact the Cleric isn't a class on its own, its the fact they made it a "support" class and not a class on its own.
Mortisan you talk about how the cleric would be a cool "henchmen" to buy. And that is the problem, they are nothing more than a spit and polish lackey or a healing potion. You argue that hey are so cool to have around. You say nothing about the class being good for its own sake. Its good for what it can do for the other classes. Do you use this standard for the TR? The HR? The GWF? The CW? or the GF? Only the DC is expressed in terms of what it does as a "support". That makes it a "henchmen" class. But that's just it, they are made a "support" class, not a full member of an adventuring party. Basicly the poor DC gets to "buff/heal" every one, they can act only through others. They should be able to buff/ heal and fight (obviously not as well as a fighter), just like the table top version. The cleric needs to be an adventuring class, not a "henchmen" class.
Beckylunatic, you argue that being able to do IWD daillies solo is the measure, but then you also point out that your DC is half as capable of as the your CW. You make my arguement for me, the DC is half a character class. The cleric in table top is able to buff themselves and physically pound their enemies similarly to the fighter classes. They are also able to hurl spells that reveal hidden foes, disable them and do damage or summon divine creatures to battle for them. They are suppose to be a versitial class with in their divine abilities. Just as the wizards are in their arcane, the fighter in their weapon mastery and the rogue in their misdirection and stealth.
None of you argue that the cleric is an equal of the other classes. You argue that you're content with their role as polishers (buffing/ debuffing) and walking healing potion. I'm advocating for the cleric class to be Divine Emisaries and not the handy "henchmen" class you drag along on a dungeon run.
Frustrated Fan
I really like the description you give of the class. But in this vision, can I be proficient at healing? (not like now, where my heals are lesser then a potion)
I actually do view the gold standard for gameplay here to be capable of soloing while also knowing how to bring the most to a party situation. And sometimes, that is taking a buff/debuff role in order to allow your teammates to do what they do best. And yes, that is how I want all classes played in any group I participate in, to prioritize smooth runs and teamwork.
I've started soloing heroic dungeons on the DC for giggles. I haven't gotten very far in that project yet, and I don't know how far I will get but it's been fun to check out.
Neverwinter isn't tabletop D&D. All classes are limited by what's been coded into the game engine. A lot of players don't appreciate DCs. For the record, those same players tend to appreciate GFs and TRs and HRs even less. There are DC class mechanics that are downright godawful in implementation, like Righteousness. But I'm also a PvE-oriented player, and I don't feel like I'm "not a full member" when playing my DC in a party. Yes, pretty much everything I do then is designed to support the group... that's how I choose what powers to slot when playing any class in a group situation, how best to support that group so we can all get things done together.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I understand your view. But I like a more active role. Not based on procs but based on decisions. Who to heal, how to heal and so on.
People migrate to blue circles, and everyone wants to get divine glowed. Assuming your group isn't made of fail and moron, you can basically be the battlefield general.
If I can heal everyone on the team (which I can) I will. I've never stood there and thought "gosh, I wish I could only heal one person at a time and thus had to constantly make triage decisions, that sounds superfun."
Though for the record, I'd heal CWs first, then GWFs, then GFs (because they're so easy to heal) then TRs. I would fail to heal HRs because they'd be like two hundred metres away in the wrong direction.
Details:
1) You seem to have a very skewed/biased notion about what the word "support" entails. Perhaps you are a DotA/some similar game player, where the word "support" sometimes becomes the equivalent of trash. That word definitely has -none- of the negative connotations associated with those games here in Neverwinter.
It is insulting that you seem to think that we are expendable. This is not a chess game. If a good DC falls you are looking at a massive decrease in the party's overall DPS/mitigation, especially if all 4 other party members are still alive.
2)Your basic argument is that DCs suck because the class "isn't good for it's own sake". It is.
The problem is that you associate buffing others as (apparently) a point of weakness. This is opinion, not fact. There is obviously nothing "weak" about a group of five people gaining the equivalent of Perfect Vorpal + mitigation. And the DC can accomplish that with using a single, cast -and-forget power (Hallowed Ground). A few of our dailies have the in-game equivalent of godly intervention.
Essentially you are bashing the DC class simply because it's not the Battle Cleric.
3) Contrary to what you seem to believe, older, experienced DCs play as they want. We are definitely not DotA-type support characters who live their lives babysitting carries with all their simpering and acting too eager-to-please.
We know our strengths and limits, we know what we bring to the table, we know we have some of the strongest PvE powers in the game. Among other things (as implied above) we will not hesitate to let you to die if you won't stand in our circle - as long as people do their job, then we will do ours.
4) You keep asking for the Battle Cleric and yet if and and when a Battle Cleric is implemented (the template already exists) a DC will likely have stronger AoEs (being the caster-type cleric). I don't think a possible stronger single target DPS/survivability version of the class is going to help with your killing speed in IWD, considering how you play your DC.
I threw it all away and ran. Just resort to staying back and tossing debuffs/buffs. Funny though, breaking a GWF's spirit doesn't stop him or those pathfinders from killing you. Might as well call it Naked Killing.
Then I tried break the spirit plus a freakin astral shield, along with 11% from foresight, 5% from brand of the sun. That's a massive 76% damage reduction, and a geared GWF/PF simply tore right through it like it was paper. If that's not OP then the universe might as well be destroyed.
dumbest idea? I'd say Righteousness tops it for shear class contradiction.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
The game has changed, you are NO longer sitting in your shield, you will be destroyed, we can all bellyache about it, but it hasnt been that way since Pre tenacity honestly. Any class can destroy us in just sitting around now.
You want to survive? Get the gear , and move, move , move. While moving cast your heals and throw sheilds in the middle of the nodes for the GF/GWFs and TRs. It is also up to them to prone, knock, daze ect this is where FLS comes in handy , playing either GF or GWF, you dont always have to use it on the engaged your on, move it around to others to relieve the DC a bit.
That sorta didn't work for me... They just roar, and chow down. How do you counter someone who practically disables your keyboard for 2.5 seconds?
Remember your job is to keep points from ticking and heal.
Eventually they can kill you if left alone, but if your team is always leaving you alone, your probably not on a team good enough to win anyways.
Or... if that is happening, find your best melee or pathfinder and follow them.
And another thing: there is not cast on the run in this game. You stand still while casting.
Goddamit, why you keep saying strats and setup, but no one of you post a youtube link to really see you in action.
I know you are honest, but I really really suspect we see the same thing very differently.
And I think you really overestimate your role. This DC cannot change the course of a fight. Against competent team we are always at campfire.
If you are sturdy enough to defend a point you WON'T heal anybody. Your ****ty heals won't keep a cw alive. And sure a gf and gwf won't need that few hp your heals will give them
Kidding right? You make it sound as if DCs are HRs with a bucket filled with dodges. And another melee or PF won't stop a GWF from targeting someone down, they could care less that someone else is attacking them.
2 pathetic dodges will not save you. I already tried. The only time I survive is when they suck and do god awful damage and give teammates enough time to kill them or they eventually die from me and someone else.
The funny (sad) thing is tenacity heal depression was put in to limit GWF healing. This killed the DC class in PvP. It was obvious this would occur but the devs decided to push it forward. They only recently found out GWF Unstoppable Recovery was not effected by it. No, really, it is that bad.
PvE a DC was made irrelevant with Life Steal. On my CW I never need a DC around because LS gives so much health (even at 1K) and pots heal far faster. And my CW can debuff mobs just as good, if not better, than a DC by using CoI, HV set bonus, and PF weapon enchant. The only thing a DC brings is damage mitigation which is...meh good. Mobs telegraph their moves and my CW has 3 dodges so I don't really need to hop in tiny blue circles.
Im a faithful/righteouss mix as well, retraited further into faithful to overcome some of self healing nerfs, but you cannot sacrifice all defense for all power and crit..
If you search my threads, Ive pointed out over and over that the DC needs rework and its not in a great place but at the same time, with the right group , you can definitely help determine the outcome.
DC can give a player +20% damage but GWF, HR, TR can give %100 more damage. CW can choke and give those allmighty classes immobile, easy prey long enough for maybe 3-4 hits. With +20% damage you need to hit 15-20 times the same mob for this. And allso choke can save a character better than healing or buff. Think you are about to die and a CW choke the enemy. You can use your attacks for lifesteal and your regeneration starts working. Allso you deal damage to the enemy that now maybe he has the low HP and need to run away.
DC are leaders. Even in 3E leaders were like buffers (Clerics were not one of them). But they were giving permenant and affective buffs. In 4E leaders have the ability to alter the battle field, which DC can not do. DC should have had CC as much as CW but CWs should be the ones deling more damage and DC to be the ones preventing and healing it. But they are only preventing and healing to some extend without CC "Surpise effect".
"DC: At least some protection from CC.
Dev: N
Perma/great buffs with some healing OR buffing/debuffing with CC with some healing how the DC should be. In their current state any intellegent being would know that DC wouldn't be a treat to him because they can not deal damage, they can not CC, they can not heal affectively and nobody really cares about saving them.
1) dc+gwf vs gwf = dc+gwf win
2) gwf+gwf vs gwf = gwf+gwf win (way faster)
3) dc+gwf vs gwf+gwf = gwf+gwf win (they obliterate the dc and then see 2)
and this is true with gwf = almost (all?) any other class.
I don't think we are an asset.
No, but it bloody well SHOULD be more like the pnp game. It is advertised as a D&D 4E game.
And the DC should be recoded so it can do what senordoeboy said and be the equal of any class 1 on 1 with the same GS and skill.
Just like in AD&D.
~
And no sign that they want to give new dignity to the class. While openly OP class players keep shouting that DC are fine. Hell, everything is fine, just some little touches here and there.
I think it's time for me to find another game.
GWFs are fine as they are(sarcasm). We SHOULD be able to penetrate divine shields and slaughter every occupant within, out DPSing incoming healing PLUS damage reduction....
Have you actually played 4E? The classes are supposed to be balanced against each other for their contribution as their party role (defender/striker/leader/controller). They're definitely not meant to be balanced against each other, and certainly not for 1v1.
That doesn't mean it translates well to an online game in PVP mode, as we can all see the state of the DC. But please stop using 4E as a standard for PVP balance.
Unless your idea of balance was during the 3E days of CoDzilla, where Clerics/Druids/Wizards were considered god-tier classes by the Optimisation forums. In which case, you have a situation reversed where the DC is so overwhelmingly powerful that martial classes cannot even dream of competing.
I love PnP too (even though my group has migrated over to the IKRPG system for easier DMing) but to use PnP D&D as a basis for PVP balance is ridiculous.
The rest still up-and-coming!
In D&D lifesteal and regeneration powers are so rare and powerfull and there is reason for that! Because of life steal, regeneration and all the classes having great healing abilities, it feels just like a shooter action genre game. There should be some tactics, some fear of loosing health, that they should be precious.
If neverwinter online is not D&D but just an action game using the name and setup of Forgotten Realms Neverwinter then Clerics should get some active action abilities instead of tactical group buffs.
I dont understand why people nerfed the cleric that they are so tanky with their healings and great defense. That is what a cleric is. Being hard to kill and making the others members of the team harder to kill while punishing whomever that whishes to get rid of him. If he can not punish, the other group members will.