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Why we are so weak?
orsogufo
Member Posts: 17 Arc User
I go to Icewind Dale and suffer a lot doing quests in solo, spendind too much time and taking heavy damages.
Then i see a CW or a GWF coming, kill all in a few seconds and going away like a tropical storm.
PvP? Better don't mention it. It's an useless punching ball.
When a cleric appear in a pug domination's party, others think: "Ok, we've lost!".
Now it's worst because PvP was almost obligatory.
My Guild's leader dismissed his DC because of this.
Does the Dev's know it? Does they care? I'm asking only for a little more balance.
It's a support class, i know. But it's also a game and a game mean FUN.
Actually playing with a DC isn't too funny, in fact a little frustrated. If the fun disappear, why continue to play?
After the complaint come the proposal.
There is any action we can do for asking some balanced improvements? I don't know, a petition maybe or something else?
Then i see a CW or a GWF coming, kill all in a few seconds and going away like a tropical storm.
PvP? Better don't mention it. It's an useless punching ball.
When a cleric appear in a pug domination's party, others think: "Ok, we've lost!".
Now it's worst because PvP was almost obligatory.
My Guild's leader dismissed his DC because of this.
Does the Dev's know it? Does they care? I'm asking only for a little more balance.
It's a support class, i know. But it's also a game and a game mean FUN.
Actually playing with a DC isn't too funny, in fact a little frustrated. If the fun disappear, why continue to play?
After the complaint come the proposal.
There is any action we can do for asking some balanced improvements? I don't know, a petition maybe or something else?
Post edited by orsogufo on
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2. Because we are receiving nerfs two to thrice every modules. (Mostly ninja)
3. Because we are having arp/lifesteal T2/T2.5 epic equipments from beta to M3. (They copy the same stats on dread T2.5 and introduce us the new Elk weapons in M3)
4. Because the devs don't play cleric but they feel we are overpowered in internal testing.
5. Because in this game you are required to cast 3 healing encounters to heal back the same damage dealed by one encounter of others.
6. Because we have a daily power who only hit a single target lesser than a HR at will.
7. Because our population is the smallest.
8. Because we are supporters, who shouldn't do dailies stuff by ourselves but MUST party with others.
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Because clerics.... are the poorest class and required the most patient and optimistic guy to master. Cheers.
You made a big mistake, pre-tenacity patch we are very tanky, i can say we are godlike if we sacrifice all healing and damaging potential. It is the tenacity patch who indirectly nerf us by introducing healing depression, which cause us not to regen back our hp when we take damage. This issue is heavily discussed among the crowds where it can kill the clerics and drop them from mid to bottom of the train, but devs simply ignore all the threads in preview, gameplay and pvp combat forum and have no intention to deal with it. They said they have much more stuffs which have a higher priority than fixing and buff clerics etc, and now M3 is over while M4 is coming, we still got no news about any buffs or fix on cleric. Devs killed the cleric (this is agreed by lots of high end player), i wonder if all of us (clerics) suddenly disappeared for one week, will anyone noticed there are no clerics around for dungeon and pvp?? Is this a crucial problem to them?? No!! We are the least population in NW and are not required in PvP and PvE, thats why we are ignored. Other classes tried to defend for clerics, but we are still quite underpowered.
unless a DC is way overgeared vs competition , he isnt immortal, nor does he have much dps potential if set up for survivablity (ie the exultations, sb , ashield combo)
The dcs have taken nerf after nerf for no apparant reason, there was no balancing needed..
DC become less effective by the class composition , without visable melee targets like GWFS and GFs who also protect the DC by CC, proning around him, they are close to useless, healing a HR who is sitting 10 feet off node, doesnt help win, sitting on node without those who can protect you , is close to useless, especially if the other group holds any # of gfs, gwfs, trs, hrs plugging away from you.
DCs CAN totally help dominate a match, however it takes a group who understand the basic encounters of the DC, (DG, heal types ect)
Even then, the poor DC has stats like this (2 kills , 10 deaths and 30 assists ) or something in that range.
Ive seen this in other MMO's before, DPS scales, healing , defense doesnt and the game is just skewed, eventaully a general rebalance is done to fix it (either through allowing healers to heal themseves, or dps rework of the class to make them viable)
Its fun to get into a group that you can help, but the TR heavy , HR heavy groups can be harsh on the DC (trs are great and so are HRs , but the issue is trs are in stealth , so peeps just target the DC first and they cant multi prone/CC around you as well as the gwf/gf combo groups.
Mod 3 is PAINful to a DC, gfs maybe have it even worse.
I do my dailies, maybe do a match once a week or so, but otherwise thats all I do on my DC anymore, I get on my CW or GWF or level my new baby hr (basically rolled to learn thier rotations so I can try to at least not suck so bad competing against them)
Excuse me? Do you have a GWF? Have you played a Devouted Cleric? I think you might be a HR...
Do you realize that our "immortal" clerics could NOT kill at all...we could NOT kill...and we could NOT save others...because we were tanks.
We were just standing there...doing basicly nothing to buy time. If we needed to save someone, unless people were dumb and attacked us instead of a DPS...our heals were not enogh...because we had all our stats at defensive ratings...and our healing was low. A good dps attacker could kill our DPS fellows.
That is NOT Overpowered. Overpowered is being able to: Not die and Kill everyone.
That is GWF and a HR....they do all that. A cleric can't kill nor heal (effectively) as a tank, because we Must sacrifice ALL that for being "tanky"....and it makes sense.
HR and GWF don't need to sacrifice anything...the end damage (even if it's abit lower) they do..is enogh to kill everyone even if it is lower than a DPS build.
Devouted Clerics are far away from being overpowered, there are at very least far as this number: 3x10^6 meters.
If you don't like Devouted Cleric class, please open a post at General Discussion suggesting the removal of this class, coming here and saying nonsense won't help.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
I don't view this as true at all. Our heals aren't amazing, but then they never have been. Even with a lot of offensive stats you're not going to heal a lot. Clerics have never been about pure healing anyways, the whole buff/debuff stuff is just as important, if not more so.
clerics can sustain people just fine, it does depend on the class and who's trying to kill them. Trying to keep squishy people alive or facetankers never works very well. If you have a player who's got some decent survivability though and is actually avoiding some of the incoming dmg you can actually sustain them quite well.
Note the word "sustain"..
It's funny how even with our "non-amazing" heals, they feel the need to cut the amount even lower (by half!) with that healing depression (guess who it affect the most?)
Against equally geared GWF, no matter what you do... sooner or later, you WILL die, because our healing will never be able to outheal their already high DPS(note that they are tanky too, only with much better DPS, and PRONE). Also, dont get me started on CWs, we are their food.. 1v1 wise against equal geared opponents, clerics are the worst and considered to be the useless punching bag who can do nothing except stalemating at best..
The fact that we are VERY much dependant on group capability left most of us FRUSTRATED at most PUGs.. simply because we cant clear a node as effectively as other class.. No reliable prone, useless CC against ranged class, and relatively poor damage... even if you decide to have more DPS, you will lose too much survivability.
You're talking about self healing and I was talking about healing others, they're completely different. What's wrong with sustain anyways? Thank god for Healing Depression or PVP would be beyond ****ed up. If you wan't to debate the purpose of righteousness, fair enough, but the same can't be said for healing depression, it's indispensable
GWF's are one of the easier classes to stalemate against as a DC, less now with the destroyer builds but it's still plenty doable, especially if you're using BTS
With a full defensive build you won't sustain anybody. Without power, healing lore, and wisdom, our already tiny heal are nerfed to the ground. Player that as you say "got some decent survivability though and is actually avoiding some of the incoming" don't actually need your little heal. They could do just fine without you. Healing for few hundreds, if that, every second, is pretty useless.
- almost all our feats are party based, and in general very weak.
- we have very limited damage encounters and the few we have are AOE damage that works good in PVE but useless in PVP
- our daily are great party buff/ weak AOE damage, but compare to other classes they extremely weak
- our at will are the weakest, some got decent feats, but the low damage and speed makes them very bad in PVP
- we have no control / knock down ability (only sun burst can knock away but not knock down and most characters dodge or avoid it)
in the past DC could heal himself and be tanky
now with all the boons/ artifact / companions / new armors and weapons... charcters are stronger but the damage redaction tank cleric have is still the same.
healing depression of 50% made us very weak (I have no idea where the number 50% depression came from)
50% of healing depression extremely damage your power stat in pvp (since clerics don't need regeneration and life steal, many raised power stat)
I played against several ppl in the ice wind PVP and cleric have no chance
even if you meet an extremely low GS HR / TR you cannot kill them with your low damage, they will simply go away
against good GF you will not be able to do any damage at all, I don't think we can even break his shield
GWF can kill you no matter what you do
and good CW will take half your HP before you could even move, after that you cant do much
So you think that player's are either so weak they insta die or so strong it's impossible to kill them? Come on man, do you actually even play this game? sure we don't have some silly 20k heal we can throw at people but those "little" heals you're talking about add up real quick and are easily the difference between your team continously clearing nodes instead of being cleared. I guess I must have some serious Hax since I can show up and take a guy from 10% to 90% HP in under 10s, easy
You're just complaining and then trying to use false information to support your claim.
50% is just an arbitrary value that they choose based on their testing values.
Honestly though, did you just say Clerics don't need Regeneration? That's clearly the second best stats you can stack as a PVP Cleric, after Max HP
and honestly I am not sure there is PVP cleric now (most guides used to be good but outdated)
No, you don't. Given an health pool of 30k, from 10 to 90% are 24k. In 10 seconds are 2400HPS. So, tell me, what spells do you cast to do that? With healing depression on? Besides, you probably have a defensive build, so without talents and stats to boost your heals. I think you never stop and do some math.
And I play from beta, I have full r9/10, used 6 legendary artifact and every perfect enchantment in game, have something like 20 rank 30 companions. I know dc class inside out. And many time I have been complimented for my heals
For someone who claims to know the DC class inside out you sure lack a firm grasp of the basics.
And yeah, as noted you CAN (if you're willing to blow all your divinity and have suitable targets in the area) do it with HW and Forgemasters + soothing.
I don't think anyone is arguing that DCs can't swing the tide of a battle providing we're in a team of people who aren't utter morons, it's just that we're not a faceroll class. A GWF can pug pvp and just run around murdering dudes and having a laugh. A DC..is less able to do so.
Yeah right, with high crits rate (that you don't have, using a defensive build). And a perfect vorpal.
But even so, your HW heals for 4k (with HD, but on a full healers build), FF around 5000k, and SL 400 tick. Always on a full healers build. So in 10 seconds you should do 14k heals with SL. Good luck with that. And you probably heal less than that with all defensive talents and stats. And that assuming you are full of DP. And that's never the case during a fight. Without even considering casting time.
But ok, keep on telling others what a wonderfull healer you are and what a great defense you have and what a great mitigation you bring to the fight. Maybe you have more enchantment slots and more skills slot than the rest of us. And generate DP two times faster.
My latest main character is a level 59 Dwarven Divine Oracle, Feated for Combat and Damage with mostly Virtuous Path and Foresight and Terrifying Insight features slotted. He also has a lot of Power, Critical Strike and Armour Penetration with very low Recovery and not much Defence and bugger all Deflect.
He has won the gear prize several times and in one match got 17 kills, 0 deaths and 25 assists. He has 40 Double Kills and 8 Triple Kills. But he also has all the spare level 7 and 8 enchants from all my other characters (mostly Savage, Cruel, Brutal, Dark) and I buy new gear from the AH every few levels or so. But I am very careful in choosing the boosts the gear gives. I don't use anything with Life Steal or Regeneration, as what I want is Power, Critical Strike, Armour Penetration, Recovery, Defence and Deflection; in that order. I do not swap out my gear for better gear if the new gear has 345 Defence but I am going to lose 215 Critical. I sell it and buy what I need from the AH - sometimes, it's only 200 AD, sometimes as much as 3000 AD. Although at level 40 I spent 12-15,000 AD each on Gemmed, Embroidered Gambeson and Trousers as they have an enchant slot.
I even killed a GWF 1 on 1 recently, but I was lucky in that I had a Daily ready and almost full Divine Power when I bumped into him - I was also VERY lucky with a few dodges. I hit him with divine Divine Glow, Brand of the Sun, divine Forgemaster's Flame, Sunburst and Hammer of Fate, then another Divine Glow and Brand of the Sun and multiple Lances of Faith, a Forgemaster's Flame and a Sunburst. He went down like a sack of the brown and smelly, and I was almost dead myself. But BOY, was he MAD! He and his friends targeted me for the rest of the match and we lost badly and he was the only kill I got. On their Home Node, I was ambushed from behind by their CW and he killed me while I was still stunned and hanging in the air, and he even sent a [say] message "That was for <GWF's Name>!
I guess GWF's all hate being killed 1 on 1, but being killed by a DC? He must have been spamming the party channel "I was killed by a DC! A DC! A *@#$!! DC! Get the b*st*rd!!!
Who knows? My gear score was about 8.7k and his may have be 3k? But he was not injured when I came across him and I think the player was truly traumatised...
LOL!
But in other matches I have been minced meat.
This character has also ALMOST killed a TR 1 on 1 and sometimes actually killed an HR. I used to use Divine Glow and Daunting Light, as their damage is higher and I have the Nimbus of Light feat - but I started using Break the Spirit and Forgemaster's Flame as they always hit the target - the others have too much potential for them to dodge or simply walk out of the tiny AoE.
But, yeah, healing is nerfed beyond belief in Neverwinter, and so is the DC, mostly. This character's best healing comes from Cycle of Change and Soothing Light. Sunburst is rubbish and so is divine Astral Shield. The ACs can use Prestigious Exaltation and Sunburst, but due to the cool downs (even with WIS 23, CHA 23 and nearly 5000 Recovery), you can only really heal with those between combats. But try getting the party to wait! And don't get me started about stepping outside Bastion of Health, divine Astral Shield and even a Moon Touched Hallowed Ground with Invigorated Healing. But the healing AC cannot really defend herself, and is no use to the party dead. The Dwarven Battle DO helps the party more by killing when there is no Warrior, helping to kill when there IS a Warrior and spot healing party members who are in trouble.
Note to Crapt.ic
I have played all versions of D&D and AD&D for 35 years, and in a party with no Warrior, the DC HAS to be the Fighter - they ARE Holy Warrior/Monks Militant based on the Knights Templar, after all. The Cleric HAS to be able to stand one on one and do some damage, buff himself, heal himself and debuff the enemy and have a chance of winning against any class, including a specialised GWF. Especially if he is a Battle Cleric of a God of War.
But in Neverwinter we can either go for a Combat build with Power, Critical and Arm Pen, go for Tankiness with Max HP, Defence, Deflection and Regeneration, or go for Healing with Power, Critical and Recovery.
But the most successful build for me so far is the Battle Cleric Combat build. He cannot heal too much, but he can help put down the enemy quicker before they get a chance to kill his team.
And at least he can sort of defend himself.
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I think your getting their at will confused with Icy Rays, they look similar. But CW at wills do not do interrupt anything.
but I totally agree, DO have the edge in pvp and going on attack seems like the right thing to do
But I want to heal
And I am expecting things to get REAL bad when I reach level 60 and go up against an 18k party with my measely 8.7k.
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You'd need all the boons, all the best Power and Recovery enchants, Miracle Healer armour, join a Guild and play a lot to develop a strategy and know each other's moves. Then hope no one attacks you. Then you can run back and forth healing your team like that girl in the video in the other thread.
Although, she looked pretty bored and I think she was just playing with her boyfriend's Guild or something, and she had to be a pure Healer 'cos she was the girlie. She was VERY good, though, but must have spent a lot of real world money to get her artifacts upgraded to max and fill every slot with a Rank 10. That would need a LOT of enchanted keys,
She was an AC, though, as she was using Exaltation, Healing Word and I think Sunburst
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It remains to be seen if they intend to add battle clerics in the future, but there are cleric mobs that use blunt weapons/shields.
Defensive healer builds (set-wise) for PvP are dead. Funny how someone who claims to know the DC class inside out doesn't even know this. Pretty much the only one that remains viable is the Miracle Healer-type, and MH offers plenty of power/crit/rec - so by your definition it can't really be called a "defensive" set. Stat-wise Strength is a remarkably useful stat for PvP, increasing crit rate and more importantly, stamina gain. People who build for PvP either have decent STR or stack STR. Finally the PvP sets all provide a significant boost to divinity gain - all the Profounds grant +30% divinity gain and a small bonus to healing, and give out lots of power and crit or rec + defense/deflect/tenacity. Combine with other feats like Ethereal Boon/Bountiful Fortune. PvP-type clerics should be generating significantly more divinity than PvE-types and although you still can't afford to waste divinity, casting divine FF/normal HW + Soothing Light should definitely not be a problem. DOs can tag targets with BotS/attack to gain back divinity lost, and ACs have the option to use Divine Exaltation/normal HW and let the target's lifesteal/regen do its job, as mentioned.
Finally, this is mod 3. It is impossible to not hit diminishing returns if you just focus on def/deflect and HP/Regen are either item or enchantment slot-specific. At higher GS values defensive type clerics should no longer exist - if so you are pointlessly stacking stats past heavy diminishing returns. If you're having trouble hitting even decent power/rec/crit with sets/accessories/artifacts/companions/boons/enchants then there is something seriously wrong about how you are building your character.
It's pointless trying to compare a DC to Destroyer GWFs since Destroyer's Purpose is broken.
MH will be nerfed. And I really want to see a video with you against a competent team, in your shiny MH. How many times did they kill you? 20? 30?
Without video that proves how wonderfully you fare in pvp, I'll stop answering you.
P.S. so clerics should use MH AND profound?
MH set will be nerfed?
its like there is a computer out there that check what DC use and nerf it due to high usage
it could be good to see if all empowered purified set could save us a bit...
You think I care? So far the only thing have you have proven to me is that you have a very narrow understanding of game mechanics in general and how the DC class works. Your knowledge of even the basics is lacking - you don't know the value and impact of ArP not working on cleric DoTs, for one thing. Your arguments are trapped, one-sided and pointless - "defensive" cleric builds with low crit/power? In THIS day and age? And no feats/crit rate/class feature powers/etc. You even disregard the "little" heals and mitigation. And for some reason you're arguing about a "defensive" cleric's healing - for some reason that cleric is trying to act like any regular cleric even though his/her specific skillset is designed for contesting points.
It's like you're expecting people to argue how a naked, featless cleric who didn't even bother slotting class feature powers can win in PvP. I thought you were simply trying to argue the point with a hypothetical situation, but obviously you were not.
Anyway you refuse to use common sense to come to your own conclusions - that must really take effort on your part. You make it a point to ignore factual evidence in favor of conjecture and hearsay. Finally your main focus is on the DC, you don't even bother to look at the general picture and how only a handful of builds are actually dominating in PvP, not including several really good premades. Typical.
I don't care if you're geared, anyone who's been playing the game religiously for over a year should have multiple perfect enchantments and rank 9/10s. The only reason I bothered to answer this post, even though your other posts make it seem like you lack the decency to even read original thread topics, is because you dare try to use a logical fallacy so blatantly in a serious thread.
You have a brain, don't you? Use it.