I may have missed the point (in the midst of the insults being hurled around in the post), but you said 'dominating in pvp'.
Are you really referring to the Cleric here or was it a general reference to the whole pvp side of things involving all the classes?
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
All classes. We definitely are not dominating in PvP, except for clerics in premades.
Atm the leaderboards are merely showing us a very accurate estimate of the number of permaTRs/destroyers/survival or overgeared HRs in the game.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Can't say much atm.. since im currently only 13,6k GS cleric with profound set slotting deflect rank 6-7s.. Which, two days ago, got in a match and somehow theres this GWF who absurdly crippled me using perfectly timed take down + roar + IBS coupled with some at-wills in the middle to maximize even further his damage that i can barely do healing / shield in middle... he's that strong that i had a few of downs in 1 rotation of encounters that time...Even when im lucky to not go down that fast, he can still manage to bite chunks of 60-70% HP in 1 rotation...
I'll comment more when i have reached rank 10s of radiants... Currently with rank 6-7 of deflect isnt doing very well, floating between 61-175 of leaderboard page.. out of 100 pug matches I won 60, so i dont think im doing very good with that rate..
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh? This was originally just conjecture and you decide to take it as irrefutable fact? Explains a lot.
You think I care? So far the only thing have you have proven to me is that you have a very narrow understanding of game mechanics in general and how the DC class works. Your knowledge of even the basics is lacking - you don't know the value and impact of ArP not working on cleric DoTs, for one thing. Your arguments are trapped, one-sided and pointless - "defensive" cleric builds with low crit/power? In THIS day and age? And no feats/crit rate/class feature powers/etc. You even disregard the "little" heals and mitigation. And for some reason you're arguing about a "defensive" cleric's healing - for some reason that cleric is trying to act like any regular cleric even though his/her specific skillset is designed for contesting points.
It's like you're expecting people to argue how a naked, featless cleric who didn't even bother slotting class feature powers can win in PvP. I thought you were simply trying to argue the point with a hypothetical situation, but obviously you were not.
Anyway you refuse to use common sense to come to your own conclusions - that must really take effort on your part. You make it a point to ignore factual evidence in favor of conjecture and hearsay. Finally your main focus is on the DC, you don't even bother to look at the general picture and how only a handful of builds are actually dominating in PvP, not including several really good premades. Typical.
I don't care if you're geared, anyone who's been playing the game religiously for over a year should have multiple perfect enchantments and rank 9/10s. The only reason I bothered to answer this post, even though your other posts make it seem like you lack the decency to even read original thread topics, is because you dare try to use a logical fallacy so blatantly in a serious thread.
You have a brain, don't you? Use it.
You write too much, but you a haven't prove anything. Sorry but I think you are just full of it. As I said no video gives you no right to say we are fine.
I'd also like to ask the devs to put a search function on the leaderboard. I would like to see your magnificent pvp stats.
I don't view this as true at all. Our heals aren't amazing, but then they never have been. Even with a lot of offensive stats you're not going to heal a lot. Clerics have never been about pure healing anyways, the whole buff/debuff stuff is just as important, if not more so.
clerics can sustain people just fine, it does depend on the class and who's trying to kill them. Trying to keep squishy people alive or facetankers never works very well. If you have a player who's got some decent survivability though and is actually avoiding some of the incoming dmg you can actually sustain them quite well.
Our heals are good, if you have the stats (specific feat/boons/trait setup) for them. Yes healing depression made them weaker, but they are still viable to heal others well. If you use your healing and mitigation synergetically, you can overheal the damage on squishy classes. I assume that the person who we are healing has a brain and will move at least minimally and won't just stand like a target dummy, obviously in such situations...the class with greater Armor class and damage reduction will be easier to heal while immobilized at one place.
And of course, if you want to heal effectively, you won't be able to be tanky.
My point is that, right now, clerics don't have much, and the fact that we never had much to offer in PVP except heals and buffs.
-We can: 1. Heal 2. Buff
-We can NOT: 1. Kill 2. Survive long enogh against most classes - this negates the point "2 from we can", because AS and HG dissapear immediatly.
Now I had some random player who probably plays a Damaging class come to this forum and call us "immortals" and mentioning that we are "overpowered"...Pff......We could just stand there and do nothing...our heals were weak...our damage were close to zero...and that made sense...if you want to be strong at something, you must be weak in all the rest.
I won't even mention the classes that are overpowered right now.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Our heals are good, if you have the stats (specific feat/boons/trait setup) for them. Yes healing depression made them weaker, but they are still viable to heal others well. If you use your healing and mitigation synergetically, you can overheal the damage on squishy classes. I assume that the person who we are healing has a brain and will move at least minimally and won't just stand like a target dummy, obviously in such situations...the class with greater Armor class and damage reduction will be easier to heal while immobilized at one place.
And of course, if you want to heal effectively, you won't be able to be tanky.
My point is that, right now, clerics don't have much, and the fact that we never had much to offer in PVP except heals and buffs.
-We can: 1. Heal 2. Buff
-We can NOT: 1. Kill 2. Survive long enogh against most classes - this negates the point "2 from we can", because AS and HG dissapear immediatly.
Now I had some random player who probably plays a Damaging class come to this forum and call us "immortals" and mentioning that we are "overpowered"...Pff......We could just stand there and do nothing...our heals were weak...our damage were close to zero...and that made sense...if you want to be strong at something, you must be weak in all the rest.
I won't even mention the classes that are overpowered right now.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
That's exactly the problem. We could be tanky and heal for nothing or be somewhat good at healing and die every few seconds. And even tanky can do nothing against a gwfs chain proning you and hit you for thousands of damage every swing.
Both side got their point. Stats doesn't affect survivability too much, they got both their pros and cons. IMO, tankiness can be defined into 2 types:
1. High power/crit/recovery (Out-Healing every damage done to us)
2. High defense/deflect/hp (Take a little damage and Regen little by little to max)
Reason?? Anyone still remember in M2 how do we pvp?? I play in a special way which is a healer. I got only 25k hp and moderate defensive stats, however i can still 1v1 or 1v2 facetanking in pvp. How i do that??
Theoretically, from the inhouse pvp i did, i can remove all defensive eq and left myself 5 piece of gear to reach 5k gs but still, won a 10k gs GF by 1v1 (Both of us wear blue gear only). He did nearly kill me in a prone chain, but note the word "nearly", he failed to do so when i got a FF healing me and a AS on my feet. As long as the GF cannot oneshot me, i can heal back my self to the same level before he hit me, straight heal to max if FF crit. This is another type of tankiness, as long i am not under cc-ed and can heal myself, you cant kill me.
The second type is our old meta. We have only a little poor heals and very high mitigation and defensive stats. Well i can only heal for 100 hp while other healers can heal for 500hp, BUT u can only hit me for 50hp!!! So i can still "regen" with those little heals to full. This type is much more secure than the first type but cannot save the other teammates with low hp, which i dislike very much.
In conclusion, high power/crit/recovery can also increase our tankiness, BUT it has its own restrictions, cannot do anything in a cc chain and cannot facetank 3 to 5 enemies. Thats why MH set is our current meta, a healer set which outheal any incoming damage, with a perfect vorpal and up to 20% increase healing from feats, the healing from MH clerics is insane, with 2 limitations: not cc-ed, not one-shoted before we cast our healing spells.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Both side got their point. Stats doesn't affect survivability too much, they got both their pros and cons. IMO, tankiness can be defined into 2 types:
1. High power/crit/recovery (Out-Healing every damage done to us)
2. High defense/deflect/hp (Take a little damage and Regen little by little to max)
Reason?? Anyone still remember in M2 how do we pvp?? I play in a special way which is a healer. I got only 25k hp and moderate defensive stats, however i can still 1v1 or 1v2 facetanking in pvp. How i do that??
Theoretically, from the inhouse pvp i did, i can remove all defensive eq and left myself 5 piece of gear to reach 5k gs but still, won a 10k gs GF by 1v1 (Both of us wear blue gear only). He did nearly kill me in a prone chain, but note the word "nearly", he failed to do so when i got a FF healing me and a AS on my feet. As long as the GF cannot oneshot me, i can heal back my self to the same level before he hit me, straight heal to max if FF crit. This is another type of tankiness, as long i am not under cc-ed and can heal myself, you cant kill me.
The second type is our old meta. We have only a little poor heals and very high mitigation and defensive stats. Well i can only heal for 100 hp while other healers can heal for 500hp, BUT u can only hit me for 50hp!!! So i can still "regen" with those little heals to full. This type is much more secure than the first type but cannot save the other teammates with low hp, which i dislike very much.
In conclusion, high power/crit/recovery can also increase our tankiness, BUT it has its own restrictions, cannot do anything in a cc chain and cannot facetank 3 to 5 enemies. Thats why MH set is our current meta, a healer set which outheal any incoming damage, with a perfect vorpal and up to 20% increase healing from feats, the healing from MH clerics is insane, with 2 limitations: not cc-ed, not one-shoted before we cast our healing spells.
MH is only good because it isn't affected by HD and righteousness(?). But even so, without tenacity and little to no defensive stats, you'll get massive damage. 5% heals every encounter won't save you (with 30k would be 1.5k, less than an at-will)
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deathklaat666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 61Arc User
edited June 2014
I too find that Cleric has almost zero survivability now, even in tow to tow situations after all the nerfs placed on their healing , I am a dedicated player and a perfectionist playing my toon till I can get it the best I possibly can, as of now I have 15k gear score yet I can no longer stand vs any of the other classes in 1v1 situations the healing has been nerfed so badly that you cant kite around in 1v1 to stay alive until back up arrives, but at the same time you don't deal enough damage to threaten any of the other classes in that situation.. I'm not saying that a cleric should be able to stand vs 2 or more on their own but I think they've been overly reduced in their healing without compensation in damage or defense and should have more viability to equal out the prowess of the other classes seeing how the other classes seem to be able to out heal me with regeneration, potions and life steal.
I too find that Cleric has almost zero survivability now, even in tow to tow situations after all the nerfs placed on their healing , I am a dedicated player and a perfectionist playing my toon till I can get it the best I possibly can, as of now I have 15k gear score yet I can no longer stand vs any of the other classes in 1v1 situations the healing has been nerfed so badly that you cant kite around in 1v1 to stay alive until back up arrives, but at the same time you don't deal enough damage to threaten any of the other classes in that situation.. I'm not saying that a cleric should be able to stand vs 2 or more on their own but I think they've been overly reduced in their healing without compensation in damage or defense and should have more viability to equal out the prowess of the other classes seeing how the other classes seem to be able to out heal me with regeneration, potions and life steal.
The Devs need to fundamentally rework this class. Their incompetence meets their ignorance with what they have done. Firstly. ANYONE can kills us. Try soloing Biggrins Tomb as a cleric. An hour later, and seventy pots and you may finish it.
In PvP we are useless. We die to every other class in three strikes.
Two basic gameplay issues; NO survivability and NO damage. Survivability is simple. Lift the armor class. As for Damage - clerics should wield weapons and spells. A weapon for damage and a spell for healing. The developers had best find a way to rework this class before the game gets much older as once a class gets a bad rep, it never fully recovers.
Until this class is fixed, the game is fundamentally broken.
As i can see the problem about these "Leader" Clerics is that they do not give enough bonuses and the other classes don't (or can't) realise the bonuses. The superb cleric encounter gives %10 damage resist and %10 attack which can be overlooked by damage dealers and tanks. Even if they realised they would not consider it as an important add.
Nearly all cleric powers were desighned for buffing a group. "A group" that stays together. Say, if there is 5 player there, cleric can be counted as 1/2 but with buffs he will be giving to all the team members %10 damage/resist, adding teoriticaly another 1/2 person.
But the reality is something different. Even in PvE, Groups scatter. Even if you buff one, you would miss 2 or 3 other, and the buff will not be affective as the devs desighend. In PvP it is worther. Most of the time you and at most 2 other player stay together for an instant.
In PVP domination, dominating a field gives you 300 points and helping gives only 25. TR, HR, GWF, CW all will be trying hard to find the place where action does not exist to get that 300 points.
Devs should consider the fact that even in PvE groups do not stay that close. Especially when there are that big AoE spells. So clerics will not be effecting more than 2 (3 with himself) player at the same time. Buff should be more effective, giving 2x more than they give now that Clerics will be seen as precious allys that double the teams strength if they do not fall and in PvE shall be considered to an affective add to players characters, that they will think of saving him more than hitting their foes for 2 more times.
All in all 1 GWF should be stronger than 1 cleric but 1GWF+1cleric should be equal in power with 2GWF and 2 GWF+cleric should be trampling 3 GWF.
And clerics need some AoE buff following them. Putting the buff somewhere and seeing the player leaving that area is the most heart breaking think. But if it follows cleric for some time, everybody will be following and protecting the "leader".
Believe it or not, if somebody is playing cleric, they would not be thinking of giving such huge damages or being uber thanky. All they (as like me) want to do is buffing and healing the allies and watching their enjoyment for being %50 stronger as long as cleric is there and getting some thank for that.
NOTE: Dont give me mathematical calculations by adding daily powers and encounter powers together. They do not activite all athe same time and the waiting periods are so long.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited June 2014
You would think a foresight boosted healing word would help a CW against a hungry TR.... nope.
CW still dies as fast and the TR is on me now. All the while GWFs continue to rapidly spam unstoppable and wreck the place with an unchallenged 1 rotation killer.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You would think a foresight boosted healing word would help a CW against a hungry TR.... nope.
CW still dies as fast and the TR is on me now. All the while GWFs continue to rapidly spam unstoppable and wreck the place with an unchallenged 1 rotation killer.
This is the sad truth. You have to use whatever you got just to slightly postpone the inevitable.
Try soloing Biggrins Tomb as a cleric. An hour later, and seventy pots and you may finish it.
I solo it just fine using either my main or an alt cleric in R6s/high prophet. The alt takes around ~10 mins. Biggrins essentially tests how much you know about cleric offense powers. The mobs inside are not affected by the weird bug that sometimes raises the stats of mobs that spawn in IWD pass to ridiculous values, so they are very kill-able. If you are undergeared, you can simply join a party.
I would suggest doing something as basic as reading forum guides (there are dozens of them) before complaining.
You would think a foresight boosted healing word would help a CW against a hungry TR.... nope.
Good CWs would be insulted by this statement, unless the TR was using the permastealth/Flurry+Bilethorn build. It would take a significant amount of luck/setup for the TR to win otherwise.
All the while GWFs continue to rapidly spam unstoppable and wreck the place with an unchallenged 1 rotation killer.
Destroyer GWFs. People need to realize that they're up against a specific type of build/spec, not GWFs in general.
Stop suggesting that they raise our survivability to compensate for the Destroyer's broken damage. Even other GWFs are dying to Destroyers atm - essentially what you people are asking for is that clerics should get an improved version of the GWF's Unstoppable, since the current version is obviously not working well enough.
Ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure there's a simpler solution that only involves tweaking one paragon path instead of further destroying game balance.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I solo it just fine using either my main or an alt cleric in R6s/high prophet. The alt takes around ~10 mins. Biggrins essentially tests how much you know about cleric offense powers. The mobs inside are not affected by the weird bug that sometimes raises the stats of mobs that spawn in IWD pass to ridiculous values, so they are very kill-able. If you are undergeared, you can simply join a party.
I would suggest reading forum guides first (there are dozens of them) before complaining.
Good CWs would be insulted by this statement, unless the TR was using the permastealth/Flurry+Bilethorn build. It would take a significant amount of luck/setup for the TR to win otherwise.
Destroyer GWFs. People need to realize that they are up against a type of build/spec, not GWFs in general.
Pointless details: you can expect to fight only against op builds. At least, that's what I'm witnessing.
And being an "end game" dc myself, I expect to be able to stand my ground against everybody. And just to be clear, I can lose every fight, I don't care. I just want to have a good fight, a funny one. Not just being a little annoyance for my opponent.
And being as I said, a fully equiped dc (r9/10, perfects, 3 legendary artifact) and with a full healing spec, I should be able to keep alive everybody (of comparable gear), at least until I have DP. That's far from what is happening in pvp right now.
And now tyrtallow, add your useful remark about how everything is fine, as usual.
Pointless details: you can expect to fight only against op builds. At least, that's what I'm witnessing.
Sorry, I don't associate with idiots. Especially ones who have just made it clear that they are aware of the presence OP builds, and yet would rather suggest that the devs respond by making the DC class (not just one build/paragon path, but the entire class) OP as well - further destroying game balance (possibly beyond repair this time) instead of just "fixing" those few OP builds.
Caught with your pants down, psychaos999?
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Good CWs would be insulted by this statement, unless the TR was using the permastealth/Flurry+Bilethorn build. It would take a significant amount of luck/setup for the TR to win otherwise.
Every match I've been in with 9-14k or w/e, the CW died like a newborn baby.... These good CWs must be the 1%.
Also, about 50% of GWFs I've bumped into are killing machines. The ones who aren't have a low GS. Though I seen as low as 11k go on a murder spree. Why does a 12-14k CW struggle so bad. They had profound gear on. The Sentinels must be a 1% as well...
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry, I don't associate with idiots. Especially ones who have just made it clear that they are aware of the presence OP builds, and yet would rather suggest that the devs respond by making the DC class (not just one build/paragon path, but the entire class) OP as well - further destroying game balance (possibly beyond repair this time) instead of just "fixing" those few OP builds.
Caught with your pants down, psychaos999?
You wouldn't catch someone with his pants down even in a HAMSTER sauna, tyrtallow.
What you keep saying are always the same banality.
And for the record I don't care how the devs will fix this. The fact remains: it's a situation that need fixing.
And also, when you are the only one that says we are fine, there is a high probability YOU are the idiot.
And also, when you are the only one that says we are fine.
Actually psychaos999 you are the only person who keeps saying this and actually means it (sarcasm is obviously lost on you). You willfully ignore facts and evidence, which makes you an idiot.
The evidence is plain for all to see:
-You obviously didn't bother to read Almondum's first post in the other thread in order to understand what everyone else was are talking about. Apparently just read a few lines from a random post and automatically went QQ.
-You keep asking questions already answered multiple times by different posts in the same thread INCLUDING the main post.
-Your arguments are impractical and stupid, and you use words you obviously don't even know well enough to properly use (lol).
-You lack the basic reading comprehension skills required to understand that there is a VERY big difference between saying "clerics are fine" and saying "clerics are (relatively) fine, the problem is that several builds are broken atm". The latter has always been the point of my posts, and pretty much everyone else who kept posting in the thread saw that. Even the other idiot, who obviously only lashed out because his pride was under attack.
For some reason, you failed to realize this.
And for the record I don't care how the devs will fix this.
LOL. Hahahaha that would explain your "@devs: righteousness" thread. What a hypocrite.
You obviously don't care enough about the cleric long term, since breaking our class would only mean more "broken" fixes until we'll end up in this very same situation all over again. Which is exactly what happened to the TR/GWF, and why we're in this stupid mess in the first place. For the benefit of your limited mind (and so this doesn't become a point of attack later) this was the original point of the TR/GWF "rebalances" - no one expected this would result in the perma-TR builds and the Destroyer builds you see today. For the most part, expectations in preview (if you bothered to check posts that far back) were that TR/GWF DPS would be somewhat reduced.
The worse part is that you have made it known that you are aware of this problem, and yet it NEVER comes up in any of your posts (not counting the one where you slipped up and made the point known). One would wonder if you are only doing all of this for sheer personal gain - preying on misinformed and frustrated/tired players so you can get what you want. Quite likely.
If so that is a new low.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually psychaos999 you are the only person who keeps saying this and actually means it (sarcasm is obviously lost on you). You willfully ignore facts and evidence, which makes you an idiot.
The evidence is plain for all to see:
-You obviously didn't bother to read Almondum's first post in the other thread in order to understand what everyone else was are talking about. Apparently just read a few lines from a random post and automatically went QQ.
-You keep asking questions already answered multiple times by different posts in the same thread INCLUDING the main post.
-Your arguments are impractical and stupid, and you use words you obviously don't even know well enough to properly use (lol).
-You lack the basic reading comprehension skills required to understand that there is a VERY big difference between saying "clerics are fine" and saying "clerics are (relatively) fine, the problem is that several builds are broken atm". The latter has always been the point of my posts, and pretty much everyone else who kept posting in the thread saw that. Even the other idiot, who obviously only lashed out because his pride was under attack.
For some reason, you failed to realize this.
LOL. Hahahaha that would explain your "@devs: righteousness" thread. What a hypocrite.
You obviously don't care enough about the cleric long term, since breaking our class would only mean more "broken" fixes until we'll end up in this very same situation all over again. Which is exactly what happened to the TR/GWF, and why we're in this stupid mess in the first place. For the benefit of your limited mind (and so this doesn't become a point of attack later) this was the original point of the TR/GWF "rebalances" - no one expected this would result in the perma-TR builds and the Destroyer builds you see today. For the most part, expectations in preview (if you bothered to check posts that far back) were that TR/GWF DPS would be somewhat reduced.
The worse part is that you have made it known that you are aware of this problem, and yet it NEVER comes up in any of your posts (not counting the one where you slipped up and made the point known). One would wonder if you are only doing all of this for sheer personal gain - preying on misinformed and frustrated/tired players so you can get what you want. Quite likely.
If so that is a new low.
I see only you saying that we are fine, you and spani4rd (spelling?).
And besides as I said english is not my main language. Do you know other languaged in which we could speak?
And in this thread I see only complaints. Even from dc in the first pages of the leaderboard.
I think you are only a stupid man thinking to have a better insight than most. But you are just that: a stupid. Sorry.
Anyway, as we are relatively fine, can I see videos or screenshot of you faring relatively well?
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
And I'd like to repeat that I really don't give a **** how cryptic will fix this sorry mess.
Buff us? Nerf them? I DON'T CARE!
The thread I created was just a proposal to improve our life expectancy in pvp. But you, sherlock, have seen things that don't exist.
First, I DM'ed Table Top D&D for nearly two decades, so I have an idea of the need for game mechanics to balance. SO I'm not calling for in any way to have a class OP'ed. Next I wish to admit that I love to play clerics in MMO's because they are usually very nice to come to a new server or game to understand the game environment. Next, unlike wizards, they normally get acces to all the spells available to them at each level. They have the nice ability to heal themselves and others around them, in addition to the ability to "buff" or "debuff". Granted they don't really have AoE's like the wizard, but they are still very verstile. But in this game they are worse off than a hated step-child.
In order to understand why the DC is so under powered compared to other classes, one need only watch the introduction movie. (The HR did not exist when the introduction movie was made). Did you see what the GF did? That's right, there was no GF, obviously not a class they care about (of coarse one can argue that the GWF and GF are both sides of the same "fighter" coin). Did you see the CW? He was mearly a distraction for the Dracolich, he was even told that was all he was to be. The GWF? Yes in the end he did come out and did massive damage like he's suppose to. The DC? Yes, she came out, but she could barely turn some zombies, couldn't even handle any real undead like the Battle Wright. (completely opposite from the table top cleric). As for her "healing" ability, it is questionably at best, in my opinion down right pathetic if you ask me, especialy since they tout the DC as a "healer". Now as for the TR, she wades into the front of an army cutting a swath of destruction that would make Conan blush. And this is the "Rogue" class? No sneaking to the enemy rear destroying supplies, killing leadership? She looks more like a dex based fighter.
So the preferances of the Devs is clear. This is destructive to the game. All classes need to be equal. There should be no "support" class for PCs. A "support" class is the blacksmith that repairs your armor or the scribe that keeps your accounts. There is NO support class for adventurers. A cleric is a representative of their diety, a person of such faith and conviction they summon forth the powers of the divine. A cleric is NOT a walking bandage or armor polisher (buffer). They are a class unto themselves or at least they should be. And they should be able to function as a single class. If the devs try to create a "support" class out a main character class then by default, they are automatically making a lesser class by default.
I'm not asking for the Cleric to be over powering, but to be a full member of an adventuring party. Equal in their own way to all the others.
What the heck is a "support" class doing as a choice for PCs?
First, I DM'ed Table Top D&D for nearly two decades, so I have an idea of the need for game mechanics to balance. SO I'm not calling for in any way to have a class OP'ed. Next I wish to admit that I love to play clerics in MMO's because they are usually very nice to come to a new server or game to understand the game environment. Next, unlike wizards, they normally get acces to all the spells available to them at each level. They have the nice ability to heal themselves and others around them, in addition to the ability to "buff" or "debuff". Granted they don't really have AoE's like the wizard, but they are still very verstile. But in this game they are worse off than a hated step-child.
In order to understand why the DC is so under powered compared to other classes, one need only watch the introduction movie. (The HR did not exist when the introduction movie was made). Did you see what the GF did? That's right, there was no GF, obviously not a class they care about (of coarse one can argue that the GWF and GF are both sides of the same "fighter" coin). Did you see the CW? He was mearly a distraction for the Dracolich, he was even told that was all he was to be. The GWF? Yes in the end he did come out and did massive damage like he's suppose to. The DC? Yes, she came out, but she could barely turn some zombies, couldn't even handle any real undead like the Battle Wright. (completely opposite from the table top cleric). As for her "healing" ability, it is questionably at best, in my opinion down right pathetic if you ask me, especialy since they tout the DC as a "healer". Now as for the TR, she wades into the front of an army cutting a swath of destruction that would make Conan blush. And this is the "Rogue" class? No sneaking to the enemy rear destroying supplies, killing leadership? She looks more like a dex based fighter.
So the preferances of the Devs is clear. This is destructive to the game. All classes need to be equal. There should be no "support" class for PCs. A "support" class is the blacksmith that repairs your armor or the scribe that keeps your accounts. There is NO support class for adventurers. A cleric is a representative of their diety, a person of such faith and conviction they summon forth the powers of the divine. A cleric is NOT a walking bandage or armor polisher (buffer). They are a class unto themselves or at least they should be. And they should be able to function as a single class. If the devs try to create a "support" class out a main character class then by default, they are automatically making a lesser class by default.
I'm not asking for the Cleric to be over powering, but to be a full member of an adventuring party. Equal in their own way to all the others.
Frustrated Fan
I agree with what you said. Last week I even decided to download and install, Neverwinter Nights 2. I made an Aasimar Cleric and I am having fun turning Undead, using a shield, etc. When I heard about Neverwinter Online, I was extremely exited hoping to see a D&D cleric just like in Neverwinter Nights 1/2.
I hope that module 4 will bring something good for our class.
What the heck is a "support" class doing as a choice for PCs?
First, I DM'ed Table Top D&D for nearly two decades, so I have an idea of the need for game mechanics to balance. SO I'm not calling for in any way to have a class OP'ed. Next I wish to admit that I love to play clerics in MMO's because they are usually very nice to come to a new server or game to understand the game environment. Next, unlike wizards, they normally get acces to all the spells available to them at each level. They have the nice ability to heal themselves and others around them, in addition to the ability to "buff" or "debuff". Granted they don't really have AoE's like the wizard, but they are still very verstile. But in this game they are worse off than a hated step-child.
In order to understand why the DC is so under powered compared to other classes, one need only watch the introduction movie. (The HR did not exist when the introduction movie was made). Did you see what the GF did? That's right, there was no GF, obviously not a class they care about (of coarse one can argue that the GWF and GF are both sides of the same "fighter" coin). Did you see the CW? He was mearly a distraction for the Dracolich, he was even told that was all he was to be. The GWF? Yes in the end he did come out and did massive damage like he's suppose to. The DC? Yes, she came out, but she could barely turn some zombies, couldn't even handle any real undead like the Battle Wright. (completely opposite from the table top cleric). As for her "healing" ability, it is questionably at best, in my opinion down right pathetic if you ask me, especialy since they tout the DC as a "healer". Now as for the TR, she wades into the front of an army cutting a swath of destruction that would make Conan blush. And this is the "Rogue" class? No sneaking to the enemy rear destroying supplies, killing leadership? She looks more like a dex based fighter.
So the preferances of the Devs is clear. This is destructive to the game. All classes need to be equal. There should be no "support" class for PCs. A "support" class is the blacksmith that repairs your armor or the scribe that keeps your accounts. There is NO support class for adventurers. A cleric is a representative of their diety, a person of such faith and conviction they summon forth the powers of the divine. A cleric is NOT a walking bandage or armor polisher (buffer). They are a class unto themselves or at least they should be. And they should be able to function as a single class. If the devs try to create a "support" class out a main character class then by default, they are automatically making a lesser class by default.
I'm not asking for the Cleric to be over powering, but to be a full member of an adventuring party. Equal in their own way to all the others.
Frustrated Fan
This is why people like me continue to post in these boards. The truth of the matter is that DCs are NOT just healers. We NEVER have been. We are a class that focuses on support, yes, but our three paragon feat paths are designed to complement three very distinct kinds of support characters: Virtuous favors the attacking cleric, Faithful favors defensive/healing clerics spells and Righteous favors "tactical" clerics, mostly focusing on buffs/debuffs that makes the Righteous cleric more versatile.
As solo characters the cleric is basically a jack-of-all-trades. We are tougher than wizards, we have very strong AoEs unlike rogues and our single target damage is pretty strong thanks to nukes/DoTs/punishing light. While our two strongest nukes (Searing Light and Daunting Light) require proper targeting/setup, that's just part of being a DC. DCs who master the use of their offense powers should never have to struggle in IWD, as long as you stick to solo content. Kaelac's guide to IWD explains this in more detail.
In a group setup, our role changes because our strongest powers are the ones that become even more powerful the more people are affected by them (Hallowed Ground, Divine Armor, Astral Shield, etc). From being just a jack-of-all-trades -type character we gain a focus - we become multipliers. Healing is really more a side effect of that role - obviously a dead character is of no use to anyone. Before mod 3 the state of the DC class was such that we had a lot more freedom when it came to playing support. Neverwinter's design was such that it was possible to play the DC as a very dynamic character, and to support your team you had several options - you could attack (to build DP/AP/debuff - Virtuous further rewarded attacking by granting buffs/debuffs to the cleric and his/her targets), play defensively (Faithful rewarded healing with a host of powerful buffs including stat bonuses/temporary hitpoints/"future" healing) or play tactically (Righteous clerics were particularly slippery in PvP) even as you used basic healing powers. Lore-wise the Virtuous led by example, the Faithful were your classic reactive-type support cleric, and the Righteous represented the "clever" cleric.
Now let me tell you a story far more compelling that the opening NW cinematic, which should never be taken as an accurate depiction of the state of the game (FYI, the Tiefling was a warlock, not a wizard).
Before mod 3 only permastealth/Bilethorn rogues, overgeared GWFs/HRs and really good players (as was proper) were particularly problematic. Mod 3 attempted to fix this by introducing various rebalances to the HR/GWF class and a promise to revisit how the TR/CW/GF worked (mostly for PvE and only partly for PvP). Expectations in preview were that GWFs would be doing less damage except the Destroyer, which would be doing more damage the longer the fight went on. Back in mod 3 the main problem with GWFs were that they were too tanky, and a good GWF could outlast most characters
Instead, mod 3 introduced the present Destroyer spec rebalances and an even more problematic HR paragon path.
Thus was the unholy trinity of the current meta in PvP established - permastealth/bile rogues, Destroyer GWFs and HRs. Just check the leaderboards for evidence. Note that these are all specific build types. Even the good PvP HRs follow a general build type.
It is thanks to the three builds that we no longer have most of the freedoms we had in mod3, at least if you planned on staying competent. For the most part it is impossible to effectively deal with the above builds without a good team, and you're screwed if the enemy team had a similar level of competence. However you should, in fact, be able to reliably stalemate just about any other build, unless you are simply being outplayed. If not, check your gear. Kaelac's various guides should help explain the importance of stats like tenacity and HP for clerics. Some non-OP builds also have a specific counter/strategy associated with dealing with them. The rest, you learn through experience.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
And then again your post is irrelevant: we ALL know there are 3 op classes. What I think we are arguing is how to make the game more enjoyable for dc. There are simply no build that makes playing a dc not a chore.
If you choose to be an healer, with hd and righteousness, you won't be able to survive anyone. If you choose to be sturdy, you will heal for nothing.
Ohhh you want to buff/debuff, right? Well guess what, your buff/debuff vanish with your death. And we are always dead, against a semi competent team.
Why is so hard for you to accept that this DC is NOT funny to play for many players?!?!
You think that what is right for you, should be right for everybody.
What I think is that MANY players don't like how dc plays in pvp.
And also, we have every right to pug and be effective, as any other class do.
I believe you missed the focus of my post. You say that clerics aren't just for healing, but we are a class focused on support. That in itself IS THE PROBLEM! They made a main line character class a supporting actor. The Cleric is NOT a support class. At least it isn't in the table top game. It is a representative of a divine power. Do you think a divine power grants part of it's divine spark so it can be used as to spit and polish the armor of the GWFs, TRs, or HRs? Do you think they grant these powers to act as a cheap potion of healing for them? The Cleric is a class unto itself, with its own stand alone abilities, at least that is how it has been since the 1st edition D&D books.
As for Jack-of-all-trades, we're not "tougher than a wizard" in fact my personal experience is that wizards are more durable and able to dish out massive amounts of damage with their spells, even compared to the clerics' "nukes" (daunting light, searing light and such, and yes I use those). It takes forever for a cleric to kill anything compared to any of the other classes, (and yes I know how to use my "nukes" properly. ANd I have one of each class in my stable so I'm able to compare.). Compared to the other classes a solo cleric is like a "flower child" from the 60's trying to defeat a troll with peace, love and other good vibes. I'd rather have my mace and shield, in fact the "divine mode" for spells is a joke. All cleric spells are divine! They should make all cleric spells divine and give me the option to toggle between the "ranged at-wills" and a "melee at-will of shield and mace". I'd probably do more damage beating the monsters with the holy symbol than waving it around anyway.
And your arguement that in a group our role is to affect our team mates, again makes the cleric nothing more than a cheap potion of healing and a spit and polish lackey. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Clerics are reduced to nothing more than a henchmen, a "pet", or "companion". Are they a main line class or not? If they are nothing more than a support class, why even have it? You can pick up a "cleric companion" in the market in the Protector's Enclave for a few coin.
Your discussion on the three paths of the cleric are ilrelavant. The problem isn't that there isn't options and diffrences for the cleric class. The problem is that all of them make the cleric a "support" class. THAT is the problem, the cleric isn't meant to be just a walking potion of healing or the polishing lackey. You might as well bring an alchemist and armorer along and leave the mewling pathetic religious fanatic at their shrine.
As for the unbalanced power of the TRs, GWFs, and HRs that is yet another example of the game mechanics not right.
Frustrated Fan
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
@senordoeboy:
And I love you too random citizen! Well said!
Senordoeboy: We're certainly tougher than wizards, both in PvP and PvE, since we actually have SOME armour. Unless a CW is specced specifically for PvP, they generally only have enough hitpoints to take one decent hit, at best. A full-on damage-specced CW is literally a one-shot kill.
A DC should be more than capable of taking a couple of hits like that even if not stacking CON or defense-slot radiants.
And as force multipliers, tyrtallow is spot on: we can be insane force multipliers.
Taking your quote:
makes the cleric nothing more than a cheap potion of healing and a spit and polish lackey. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Clerics are reduced to nothing more than a henchmen, a "pet", or "companion"
If you know of a companion that can provide a good 40% or so damage reduction, 20% or so damage buff, constant tick healing, enemy defense debuff..and all for the entire team? Well, you should totally buy that companion.
Clerics can be amazing additions to dungeon parties: for low geared parties the heals/mitigation are almost essential, and for the high geared parties the buffs/debuffs boost everyone enormously (and the heals and mitigation let everyone play more recklessly, too).
Course, this is PvE, where basically everything is ok as long as you're not a moron trying to speedrun everything. I've happily finished T2s with 5 DC teams, and we really can put out some nice numbers. Soloing IWD is trickier until you get the hang of it, but still wholly manageable (and generally more fun than doing it on a GF).
DCs are basically not in a bad place, PvE-wise.
So there's that.
Now most of this thread is about PvP, however. And yeah, DCs are in a bad place in PvP. What a lot of posters are missing, though, is that a whole TON of classes are in a bad place in PvP. Because PvP in neverwinter is terrible. Implemented badly, with no real thought, using character classes that were never designed to be employed in a PvP context, and without even any real attempt at matchmaking (let's put all the DCs on one team, and all the GWFs on the other! MATCHMAKER AM SMRT).
It's proven to be hilariously broken time and time again, and 'balance' patches simply make min-maxing theorycrafters wander off to devise a new FOTM uberbuild while everyone else complains about how the PvP balance patch has ruined PvE (again).
As tyrtallow notes, PvP at the moment is basically three specific builds (for three specific classes), and then "everyone else, getting facerolled by those three builds". Honestly, this has pretty much been the case since PvP was introduced. All that's changed is which builds are currently FOTM. Being a DC in PvP is a miserable experience. Being a non-perma TR in PvP is a miserable experience. Being a PvE-specced CW in PvP is a miserable experience ("40k HP or GTFO LOL"). PvP, in general, is just a miserable experience unless you're one of the FOTM builds, and buffing the DC will not change this. It will, at best, make it sliiiiightly less miserable, because we'll take 0.45 seconds longer to be gibbed by some gimp with a massive sword.
Do DCs have problems? Yes.
Are they as bad as you make out? No.
Would PvP for DCs be fixed if DCs were buffed? No.
PvP is so badly broken that the only fix that will work is taking it outside, shooting it in the back of the head, dumping it into a barrel and burying it in a lime-pit in the desert, then pretending it never happened.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
It takes forever for a cleric to kill anything compared to any of the other classes, (and yes I know how to use my "nukes" properly. ANd I have one of each class in my stable so I'm able to compare.). Compared to the other classes a solo cleric is like a "flower child" from the 60's trying to defeat a troll with peace, love and other good vibes.
I honestly disagree with this. I don't have a huge problem doing solo IWD dailies on a DC and killing most mobs in one rotation. My CW might be able to do it in less than one rotation, and I would hesitate to solo the 2-3 person heroics on my DC like I will with the more straight-up damage-oriented classes. Still, the basic PvE is quite unproblematic.
Sometimes I wonder my disconnect is simply because different people have variable ideas of what "takes forever" means.
I honestly disagree with this. I don't have a huge problem doing solo IWD dailies on a DC and killing most mobs in one rotation. My CW might be able to do it in less than one rotation, and I would hesitate to solo the 2-3 person heroics on my DC like I will with the more straight-up damage-oriented classes. Still, the basic PvE is quite unproblematic.
Sometimes I wonder my disconnect is simply because different people have variable ideas of what "takes forever" means.
I agree. I don't understand the disconnect. All I can figure is that some people have hang ups that keep them from playing the class properly. Some people seem to think DC's should not have to use pots. So they try not to use them.
There are a few threads that show in simple terms how to effectively solo IWD content with a DC. It does not take forever. You can kill most groups in one rotation. I do it with my High Prophet gear and 13k GS. Easily obtained gear.
And it always makes me laugh when people say they are a pure healer spec. LOL!
Read Kaelac's guide. Take his advice for specs and spell load out. He spent over 40 days on test parsing it. He does know what he is talking about. He is thorough and amazingly, he openly shares with everyone. There is no other comprehensive source for any class that I have seen. Kaelac did the DC class an incredible service.
It is simple to solo IWD with a DC. Not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. And I find it a fun class to play.
Comments
Are you really referring to the Cleric here or was it a general reference to the whole pvp side of things involving all the classes?
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Atm the leaderboards are merely showing us a very accurate estimate of the number of permaTRs/destroyers/survival or overgeared HRs in the game.
I'll comment more when i have reached rank 10s of radiants... Currently with rank 6-7 of deflect isnt doing very well, floating between 61-175 of leaderboard page.. out of 100 pug matches I won 60, so i dont think im doing very good with that rate..
You write too much, but you a haven't prove anything. Sorry but I think you are just full of it. As I said no video gives you no right to say we are fine.
I'd also like to ask the devs to put a search function on the leaderboard. I would like to see your magnificent pvp stats.
Our heals are good, if you have the stats (specific feat/boons/trait setup) for them. Yes healing depression made them weaker, but they are still viable to heal others well. If you use your healing and mitigation synergetically, you can overheal the damage on squishy classes. I assume that the person who we are healing has a brain and will move at least minimally and won't just stand like a target dummy, obviously in such situations...the class with greater Armor class and damage reduction will be easier to heal while immobilized at one place.
And of course, if you want to heal effectively, you won't be able to be tanky.
My point is that, right now, clerics don't have much, and the fact that we never had much to offer in PVP except heals and buffs.
-We can: 1. Heal 2. Buff
-We can NOT: 1. Kill 2. Survive long enogh against most classes - this negates the point "2 from we can", because AS and HG dissapear immediatly.
Now I had some random player who probably plays a Damaging class come to this forum and call us "immortals" and mentioning that we are "overpowered"...Pff......We could just stand there and do nothing...our heals were weak...our damage were close to zero...and that made sense...if you want to be strong at something, you must be weak in all the rest.
I won't even mention the classes that are overpowered right now.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
That's exactly the problem. We could be tanky and heal for nothing or be somewhat good at healing and die every few seconds. And even tanky can do nothing against a gwfs chain proning you and hit you for thousands of damage every swing.
1. High power/crit/recovery (Out-Healing every damage done to us)
2. High defense/deflect/hp (Take a little damage and Regen little by little to max)
Reason?? Anyone still remember in M2 how do we pvp?? I play in a special way which is a healer. I got only 25k hp and moderate defensive stats, however i can still 1v1 or 1v2 facetanking in pvp. How i do that??
Theoretically, from the inhouse pvp i did, i can remove all defensive eq and left myself 5 piece of gear to reach 5k gs but still, won a 10k gs GF by 1v1 (Both of us wear blue gear only). He did nearly kill me in a prone chain, but note the word "nearly", he failed to do so when i got a FF healing me and a AS on my feet. As long as the GF cannot oneshot me, i can heal back my self to the same level before he hit me, straight heal to max if FF crit. This is another type of tankiness, as long i am not under cc-ed and can heal myself, you cant kill me.
The second type is our old meta. We have only a little poor heals and very high mitigation and defensive stats. Well i can only heal for 100 hp while other healers can heal for 500hp, BUT u can only hit me for 50hp!!! So i can still "regen" with those little heals to full. This type is much more secure than the first type but cannot save the other teammates with low hp, which i dislike very much.
In conclusion, high power/crit/recovery can also increase our tankiness, BUT it has its own restrictions, cannot do anything in a cc chain and cannot facetank 3 to 5 enemies. Thats why MH set is our current meta, a healer set which outheal any incoming damage, with a perfect vorpal and up to 20% increase healing from feats, the healing from MH clerics is insane, with 2 limitations: not cc-ed, not one-shoted before we cast our healing spells.
MH is only good because it isn't affected by HD and righteousness(?). But even so, without tenacity and little to no defensive stats, you'll get massive damage. 5% heals every encounter won't save you (with 30k would be 1.5k, less than an at-will)
The Devs need to fundamentally rework this class. Their incompetence meets their ignorance with what they have done. Firstly. ANYONE can kills us. Try soloing Biggrins Tomb as a cleric. An hour later, and seventy pots and you may finish it.
In PvP we are useless. We die to every other class in three strikes.
Two basic gameplay issues; NO survivability and NO damage. Survivability is simple. Lift the armor class. As for Damage - clerics should wield weapons and spells. A weapon for damage and a spell for healing. The developers had best find a way to rework this class before the game gets much older as once a class gets a bad rep, it never fully recovers.
Until this class is fixed, the game is fundamentally broken.
Nearly all cleric powers were desighned for buffing a group. "A group" that stays together. Say, if there is 5 player there, cleric can be counted as 1/2 but with buffs he will be giving to all the team members %10 damage/resist, adding teoriticaly another 1/2 person.
But the reality is something different. Even in PvE, Groups scatter. Even if you buff one, you would miss 2 or 3 other, and the buff will not be affective as the devs desighend. In PvP it is worther. Most of the time you and at most 2 other player stay together for an instant.
In PVP domination, dominating a field gives you 300 points and helping gives only 25. TR, HR, GWF, CW all will be trying hard to find the place where action does not exist to get that 300 points.
Devs should consider the fact that even in PvE groups do not stay that close. Especially when there are that big AoE spells. So clerics will not be effecting more than 2 (3 with himself) player at the same time. Buff should be more effective, giving 2x more than they give now that Clerics will be seen as precious allys that double the teams strength if they do not fall and in PvE shall be considered to an affective add to players characters, that they will think of saving him more than hitting their foes for 2 more times.
All in all 1 GWF should be stronger than 1 cleric but 1GWF+1cleric should be equal in power with 2GWF and 2 GWF+cleric should be trampling 3 GWF.
And clerics need some AoE buff following them. Putting the buff somewhere and seeing the player leaving that area is the most heart breaking think. But if it follows cleric for some time, everybody will be following and protecting the "leader".
Believe it or not, if somebody is playing cleric, they would not be thinking of giving such huge damages or being uber thanky. All they (as like me) want to do is buffing and healing the allies and watching their enjoyment for being %50 stronger as long as cleric is there and getting some thank for that.
NOTE: Dont give me mathematical calculations by adding daily powers and encounter powers together. They do not activite all athe same time and the waiting periods are so long.
CW still dies as fast and the TR is on me now. All the while GWFs continue to rapidly spam unstoppable and wreck the place with an unchallenged 1 rotation killer.
This is the sad truth. You have to use whatever you got just to slightly postpone the inevitable.
I would suggest doing something as basic as reading forum guides (there are dozens of them) before complaining.
Good CWs would be insulted by this statement, unless the TR was using the permastealth/Flurry+Bilethorn build. It would take a significant amount of luck/setup for the TR to win otherwise.
Destroyer GWFs. People need to realize that they're up against a specific type of build/spec, not GWFs in general.
Stop suggesting that they raise our survivability to compensate for the Destroyer's broken damage. Even other GWFs are dying to Destroyers atm - essentially what you people are asking for is that clerics should get an improved version of the GWF's Unstoppable, since the current version is obviously not working well enough.
Ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure there's a simpler solution that only involves tweaking one paragon path instead of further destroying game balance.
Pointless details: you can expect to fight only against op builds. At least, that's what I'm witnessing.
And being an "end game" dc myself, I expect to be able to stand my ground against everybody. And just to be clear, I can lose every fight, I don't care. I just want to have a good fight, a funny one. Not just being a little annoyance for my opponent.
And being as I said, a fully equiped dc (r9/10, perfects, 3 legendary artifact) and with a full healing spec, I should be able to keep alive everybody (of comparable gear), at least until I have DP. That's far from what is happening in pvp right now.
And now tyrtallow, add your useful remark about how everything is fine, as usual.
Sorry, I don't associate with idiots. Especially ones who have just made it clear that they are aware of the presence OP builds, and yet would rather suggest that the devs respond by making the DC class (not just one build/paragon path, but the entire class) OP as well - further destroying game balance (possibly beyond repair this time) instead of just "fixing" those few OP builds.
Caught with your pants down, psychaos999?
Every match I've been in with 9-14k or w/e, the CW died like a newborn baby.... These good CWs must be the 1%.
Also, about 50% of GWFs I've bumped into are killing machines. The ones who aren't have a low GS. Though I seen as low as 11k go on a murder spree. Why does a 12-14k CW struggle so bad. They had profound gear on. The Sentinels must be a 1% as well...
You wouldn't catch someone with his pants down even in a HAMSTER sauna, tyrtallow.
What you keep saying are always the same banality.
And for the record I don't care how the devs will fix this. The fact remains: it's a situation that need fixing.
And also, when you are the only one that says we are fine, there is a high probability YOU are the idiot.
The evidence is plain for all to see:
-You obviously didn't bother to read Almondum's first post in the other thread in order to understand what everyone else was are talking about. Apparently just read a few lines from a random post and automatically went QQ.
-You keep asking questions already answered multiple times by different posts in the same thread INCLUDING the main post.
-Your arguments are impractical and stupid, and you use words you obviously don't even know well enough to properly use (lol).
-You lack the basic reading comprehension skills required to understand that there is a VERY big difference between saying "clerics are fine" and saying "clerics are (relatively) fine, the problem is that several builds are broken atm". The latter has always been the point of my posts, and pretty much everyone else who kept posting in the thread saw that. Even the other idiot, who obviously only lashed out because his pride was under attack.
For some reason, you failed to realize this.
LOL. Hahahaha that would explain your "@devs: righteousness" thread. What a hypocrite.
You obviously don't care enough about the cleric long term, since breaking our class would only mean more "broken" fixes until we'll end up in this very same situation all over again. Which is exactly what happened to the TR/GWF, and why we're in this stupid mess in the first place. For the benefit of your limited mind (and so this doesn't become a point of attack later) this was the original point of the TR/GWF "rebalances" - no one expected this would result in the perma-TR builds and the Destroyer builds you see today. For the most part, expectations in preview (if you bothered to check posts that far back) were that TR/GWF DPS would be somewhat reduced.
The worse part is that you have made it known that you are aware of this problem, and yet it NEVER comes up in any of your posts (not counting the one where you slipped up and made the point known). One would wonder if you are only doing all of this for sheer personal gain - preying on misinformed and frustrated/tired players so you can get what you want. Quite likely.
If so that is a new low.
I see only you saying that we are fine, you and spani4rd (spelling?).
And besides as I said english is not my main language. Do you know other languaged in which we could speak?
And in this thread I see only complaints. Even from dc in the first pages of the leaderboard.
I think you are only a stupid man thinking to have a better insight than most. But you are just that: a stupid. Sorry.
Anyway, as we are relatively fine, can I see videos or screenshot of you faring relatively well?
Buff us? Nerf them? I DON'T CARE!
The thread I created was just a proposal to improve our life expectancy in pvp. But you, sherlock, have seen things that don't exist.
In order to understand why the DC is so under powered compared to other classes, one need only watch the introduction movie. (The HR did not exist when the introduction movie was made). Did you see what the GF did? That's right, there was no GF, obviously not a class they care about (of coarse one can argue that the GWF and GF are both sides of the same "fighter" coin). Did you see the CW? He was mearly a distraction for the Dracolich, he was even told that was all he was to be. The GWF? Yes in the end he did come out and did massive damage like he's suppose to. The DC? Yes, she came out, but she could barely turn some zombies, couldn't even handle any real undead like the Battle Wright. (completely opposite from the table top cleric). As for her "healing" ability, it is questionably at best, in my opinion down right pathetic if you ask me, especialy since they tout the DC as a "healer". Now as for the TR, she wades into the front of an army cutting a swath of destruction that would make Conan blush. And this is the "Rogue" class? No sneaking to the enemy rear destroying supplies, killing leadership? She looks more like a dex based fighter.
So the preferances of the Devs is clear. This is destructive to the game. All classes need to be equal. There should be no "support" class for PCs. A "support" class is the blacksmith that repairs your armor or the scribe that keeps your accounts. There is NO support class for adventurers. A cleric is a representative of their diety, a person of such faith and conviction they summon forth the powers of the divine. A cleric is NOT a walking bandage or armor polisher (buffer). They are a class unto themselves or at least they should be. And they should be able to function as a single class. If the devs try to create a "support" class out a main character class then by default, they are automatically making a lesser class by default.
I'm not asking for the Cleric to be over powering, but to be a full member of an adventuring party. Equal in their own way to all the others.
Frustrated Fan
I agree with what you said. Last week I even decided to download and install, Neverwinter Nights 2. I made an Aasimar Cleric and I am having fun turning Undead, using a shield, etc. When I heard about Neverwinter Online, I was extremely exited hoping to see a D&D cleric just like in Neverwinter Nights 1/2.
I hope that module 4 will bring something good for our class.
As solo characters the cleric is basically a jack-of-all-trades. We are tougher than wizards, we have very strong AoEs unlike rogues and our single target damage is pretty strong thanks to nukes/DoTs/punishing light. While our two strongest nukes (Searing Light and Daunting Light) require proper targeting/setup, that's just part of being a DC. DCs who master the use of their offense powers should never have to struggle in IWD, as long as you stick to solo content. Kaelac's guide to IWD explains this in more detail.
In a group setup, our role changes because our strongest powers are the ones that become even more powerful the more people are affected by them (Hallowed Ground, Divine Armor, Astral Shield, etc). From being just a jack-of-all-trades -type character we gain a focus - we become multipliers. Healing is really more a side effect of that role - obviously a dead character is of no use to anyone. Before mod 3 the state of the DC class was such that we had a lot more freedom when it came to playing support. Neverwinter's design was such that it was possible to play the DC as a very dynamic character, and to support your team you had several options - you could attack (to build DP/AP/debuff - Virtuous further rewarded attacking by granting buffs/debuffs to the cleric and his/her targets), play defensively (Faithful rewarded healing with a host of powerful buffs including stat bonuses/temporary hitpoints/"future" healing) or play tactically (Righteous clerics were particularly slippery in PvP) even as you used basic healing powers. Lore-wise the Virtuous led by example, the Faithful were your classic reactive-type support cleric, and the Righteous represented the "clever" cleric.
Now let me tell you a story far more compelling that the opening NW cinematic, which should never be taken as an accurate depiction of the state of the game (FYI, the Tiefling was a warlock, not a wizard).
Before mod 3 only permastealth/Bilethorn rogues, overgeared GWFs/HRs and really good players (as was proper) were particularly problematic. Mod 3 attempted to fix this by introducing various rebalances to the HR/GWF class and a promise to revisit how the TR/CW/GF worked (mostly for PvE and only partly for PvP). Expectations in preview were that GWFs would be doing less damage except the Destroyer, which would be doing more damage the longer the fight went on. Back in mod 3 the main problem with GWFs were that they were too tanky, and a good GWF could outlast most characters
Instead, mod 3 introduced the present Destroyer spec rebalances and an even more problematic HR paragon path.
Thus was the unholy trinity of the current meta in PvP established - permastealth/bile rogues, Destroyer GWFs and HRs. Just check the leaderboards for evidence. Note that these are all specific build types. Even the good PvP HRs follow a general build type.
It is thanks to the three builds that we no longer have most of the freedoms we had in mod3, at least if you planned on staying competent. For the most part it is impossible to effectively deal with the above builds without a good team, and you're screwed if the enemy team had a similar level of competence. However you should, in fact, be able to reliably stalemate just about any other build, unless you are simply being outplayed. If not, check your gear. Kaelac's various guides should help explain the importance of stats like tenacity and HP for clerics. Some non-OP builds also have a specific counter/strategy associated with dealing with them. The rest, you learn through experience.
If you choose to be an healer, with hd and righteousness, you won't be able to survive anyone. If you choose to be sturdy, you will heal for nothing.
Ohhh you want to buff/debuff, right? Well guess what, your buff/debuff vanish with your death. And we are always dead, against a semi competent team.
Why is so hard for you to accept that this DC is NOT funny to play for many players?!?!
You think that what is right for you, should be right for everybody.
What I think is that MANY players don't like how dc plays in pvp.
And also, we have every right to pug and be effective, as any other class do.
I believe you missed the focus of my post. You say that clerics aren't just for healing, but we are a class focused on support. That in itself IS THE PROBLEM! They made a main line character class a supporting actor. The Cleric is NOT a support class. At least it isn't in the table top game. It is a representative of a divine power. Do you think a divine power grants part of it's divine spark so it can be used as to spit and polish the armor of the GWFs, TRs, or HRs? Do you think they grant these powers to act as a cheap potion of healing for them? The Cleric is a class unto itself, with its own stand alone abilities, at least that is how it has been since the 1st edition D&D books.
As for Jack-of-all-trades, we're not "tougher than a wizard" in fact my personal experience is that wizards are more durable and able to dish out massive amounts of damage with their spells, even compared to the clerics' "nukes" (daunting light, searing light and such, and yes I use those). It takes forever for a cleric to kill anything compared to any of the other classes, (and yes I know how to use my "nukes" properly. ANd I have one of each class in my stable so I'm able to compare.). Compared to the other classes a solo cleric is like a "flower child" from the 60's trying to defeat a troll with peace, love and other good vibes. I'd rather have my mace and shield, in fact the "divine mode" for spells is a joke. All cleric spells are divine! They should make all cleric spells divine and give me the option to toggle between the "ranged at-wills" and a "melee at-will of shield and mace". I'd probably do more damage beating the monsters with the holy symbol than waving it around anyway.
And your arguement that in a group our role is to affect our team mates, again makes the cleric nothing more than a cheap potion of healing and a spit and polish lackey. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Clerics are reduced to nothing more than a henchmen, a "pet", or "companion". Are they a main line class or not? If they are nothing more than a support class, why even have it? You can pick up a "cleric companion" in the market in the Protector's Enclave for a few coin.
Your discussion on the three paths of the cleric are ilrelavant. The problem isn't that there isn't options and diffrences for the cleric class. The problem is that all of them make the cleric a "support" class. THAT is the problem, the cleric isn't meant to be just a walking potion of healing or the polishing lackey. You might as well bring an alchemist and armorer along and leave the mewling pathetic religious fanatic at their shrine.
As for the unbalanced power of the TRs, GWFs, and HRs that is yet another example of the game mechanics not right.
Frustrated Fan
And I love you too random citizen! Well said!
A DC should be more than capable of taking a couple of hits like that even if not stacking CON or defense-slot radiants.
And as force multipliers, tyrtallow is spot on: we can be insane force multipliers.
Taking your quote:
If you know of a companion that can provide a good 40% or so damage reduction, 20% or so damage buff, constant tick healing, enemy defense debuff..and all for the entire team? Well, you should totally buy that companion.
Clerics can be amazing additions to dungeon parties: for low geared parties the heals/mitigation are almost essential, and for the high geared parties the buffs/debuffs boost everyone enormously (and the heals and mitigation let everyone play more recklessly, too).
Course, this is PvE, where basically everything is ok as long as you're not a moron trying to speedrun everything. I've happily finished T2s with 5 DC teams, and we really can put out some nice numbers. Soloing IWD is trickier until you get the hang of it, but still wholly manageable (and generally more fun than doing it on a GF).
DCs are basically not in a bad place, PvE-wise.
So there's that.
Now most of this thread is about PvP, however. And yeah, DCs are in a bad place in PvP. What a lot of posters are missing, though, is that a whole TON of classes are in a bad place in PvP. Because PvP in neverwinter is terrible. Implemented badly, with no real thought, using character classes that were never designed to be employed in a PvP context, and without even any real attempt at matchmaking (let's put all the DCs on one team, and all the GWFs on the other! MATCHMAKER AM SMRT).
It's proven to be hilariously broken time and time again, and 'balance' patches simply make min-maxing theorycrafters wander off to devise a new FOTM uberbuild while everyone else complains about how the PvP balance patch has ruined PvE (again).
As tyrtallow notes, PvP at the moment is basically three specific builds (for three specific classes), and then "everyone else, getting facerolled by those three builds". Honestly, this has pretty much been the case since PvP was introduced. All that's changed is which builds are currently FOTM. Being a DC in PvP is a miserable experience. Being a non-perma TR in PvP is a miserable experience. Being a PvE-specced CW in PvP is a miserable experience ("40k HP or GTFO LOL"). PvP, in general, is just a miserable experience unless you're one of the FOTM builds, and buffing the DC will not change this. It will, at best, make it sliiiiightly less miserable, because we'll take 0.45 seconds longer to be gibbed by some gimp with a massive sword.
Do DCs have problems? Yes.
Are they as bad as you make out? No.
Would PvP for DCs be fixed if DCs were buffed? No.
PvP is so badly broken that the only fix that will work is taking it outside, shooting it in the back of the head, dumping it into a barrel and burying it in a lime-pit in the desert, then pretending it never happened.
I honestly disagree with this. I don't have a huge problem doing solo IWD dailies on a DC and killing most mobs in one rotation. My CW might be able to do it in less than one rotation, and I would hesitate to solo the 2-3 person heroics on my DC like I will with the more straight-up damage-oriented classes. Still, the basic PvE is quite unproblematic.
Sometimes I wonder my disconnect is simply because different people have variable ideas of what "takes forever" means.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I agree. I don't understand the disconnect. All I can figure is that some people have hang ups that keep them from playing the class properly. Some people seem to think DC's should not have to use pots. So they try not to use them.
There are a few threads that show in simple terms how to effectively solo IWD content with a DC. It does not take forever. You can kill most groups in one rotation. I do it with my High Prophet gear and 13k GS. Easily obtained gear.
And it always makes me laugh when people say they are a pure healer spec. LOL!
Read Kaelac's guide. Take his advice for specs and spell load out. He spent over 40 days on test parsing it. He does know what he is talking about. He is thorough and amazingly, he openly shares with everyone. There is no other comprehensive source for any class that I have seen. Kaelac did the DC class an incredible service.
It is simple to solo IWD with a DC. Not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. And I find it a fun class to play.